Do Women Really Want Equal Partners?

Do women want equal partners

Maybe not. I thought Randi Gunther’s take in the Huffington Post on how modern marriages are flawed was an interesting one. She posits that while there’s been an evolution in gender roles within our relationships, it may not necessarily be for the best.

“Men would develop their feminine side and women their masculine. No longer would it be that the bad boys were sexy and the good women were virtuous. Now quality men needed to add chivalry to their power, and women to claim their ability for independent thinking and leadership. They could imagine a relationship where both were equally blended and free to be the best they could be. “She” and “he” became the new idealized “we.”

Sounds good, doesn’t it? It sure does to me. But evolution has a funny way of surprising us.

Men want women who fundamentally accept them for who they are. Women want men who are their hero, champion, and their overall superior. Few men can live up to this fantasy.

“You would think that the women in these new relationships would be ecstatic. They’ve got a guy who wants to work out together, share parenting, support their parallel dreams, and make their family collective central to both of their lives. They’ve established an equal relationship of coordinated teamwork, and the guys don’t seem to miss their old need to posture for power over intimate connections…Well, guess again…Now they’re dumping men who are faithful, attentive, and respectful, the very men they said they have always wanted. Why would women who have accomplished the female dream suddenly not be satisfied with it? Why are they leaving these ideal guys, and for what reasons?”

It’s pretty much the “Eat, Pray, Love” model. And I think it’s fatally flawed. In general, men want women who fundamentally accept them for who they are. Women want men who are their hero, champion, and their overall superior. Few men can live up to this fantasy. Says Gunther:

“Perhaps these androgynous couples over-valued adopting the same behaviors in their relationship. Maybe the men got too nice and the women a little too challenging. Oddly, the androgynous men seemed to like their new-found emotional availability, while the women began to feel more unfulfilled. Her “perfect” partner, in the process of reclaiming his full emotional expressiveness, somehow ended up paying an unfair price; he was no longer able to command the hierarchical respect from her that was once his inalienable right.

How can a man be a caretaker and a warrior at the same time? How can he serve his woman’s need for a partner who is vulnerable, open, and intimate, while donning armor to fight the dangers that threaten his family and place in the world? How can he stand up and be a man amongst men, loyal to the hunting band that covers his back, while taking the night feeding, while not appearing less than a man? Did he blend his male energy with his female side, or did he learn to be more like a female at the price of his innate masculinity?

The women I have treated who have left their husbands for more “masculine” men believed that their new relationships would be able to both excite and nurture them. Sadly, that has not always happened. The veritable saint with balls is as elusive as ever.”

Yep, I wrote about the “nice guy with balls” seven years ago. He’s a rare breed.

And as I also wrote in “Why You’re Still Single,” in a chapter called “Men Don’t Go Both Ways,” it’s unrealistic to expect the Marlboro Man and the Sensitive Artist to live inside the same human being. There are tradeoffs to both approaches, and ultimately you have to find the guy who is the best fit for you. In my opinion, Type A women are better served by partnering up with Type B men, even if they’re more attracted to Type As.

As a Type A man, the second I realized that I didn’t have to be a slave to my attraction to Type As was the second I fell in love and got married to a Type B. But then again, I consider myself a nice guy with balls.

What combination of masculine/feminine energy have you seen in the most successful relationships you’ve witnessed? Your thoughts below, as always, are appreciated.

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  1. 1

    Kill me if I ever want a warrior. Neither of us are warriors, we are separate human beings with complicated personalities. I am quite happy. Maybe the author thinks I will up and leave him to pursue yoga or something at some point but why would I? I have an awesome man who isn’t confined by the idea of traditional masculinity, he’s sexy, he’s interesting, he has strong values, he cracks me, he listens to me, he’s open with me, he’s as agreeable as I am. I don’t need him to fight for my honor or kill a deer for me to survive. If there is something he wants strongly, I let him have it, likewise, if there is something I want strongly, he lets me have it. We mostly want the same things though. 

    1. 1.1

      But do you have equal roles without gender bias?

  2. 2

    We can harp all day about the way people and society “should” be.  Women “should” be encouraged to be strong and independent.  Men “should” be encouraged to be emotional.  People “should” not be ashamed to be heavy, or un-attractive, or short, or bald, or anything else.  We can engineer a society which tells people that all these things are ok – hell, we’ve already begun with the concepts of strong independent women, and pathologizing male behaviour in the school system.
    But here’s the kicker.  Human nature is human nature.  And, as has been said here by other commenters, we can’t control what we find attractive and un-attractive.  Strength and independence are NOT qualities that most men find attractive in women.  Emotionality and financial dependence are NOT qualities that most women find attractive in men (funny that Emma Watson, in her HeforShe campaign, stated that it is ok for men to shed the chains of traditional masculinity…. yet had been quoted in the past as stating that she found British men not masculine enough for her tastes.  Cognitive dissonance, anyone? 🙂 
    Most men WANT to be providers, protectors, and leaders of their family.
    Most women WANT men who are providers, protectors, and leaders of their family, and don’t want to be these things themselves.
    If this is true, do we really want equality, or do we really want complementarity?

    1. 2.1

      Jeremy Strength and independence is what many men find attractive, it’s just how the women in our lives display it. A woman who is strong in supporting her man and the relationship or our kids is Great! If she is independent while doing all this, even better; men do love confident women, but confidence doesn’t mean I want to fight you, it means us against the world together. Contrary to what the some people would have you think, most us men don’t want a woman we can just walk all over, if I’m wrong correct me, it’s just the way you do it. I’m not your child or employee, I’m your MAN!

      If you take a Xena warrior princess type of strength and independent woman; that we men don’t like. Because a woman like that will treat us like one of the guys, and we have guy friends, we want to come home to something soft, comforting, feminine. Powerful and strong at work with your employees and co-workers is great, I would rather brag that my wife is a VP at Microsoft, then saying she is a bagger at the local grocery store. It’s only a problem when she acts the same at home and treats me like a co-worker or drinking buddy and not her lover & comforter.  

      Anyway Jeremy this wasn’t aimed at you, but at female readers who may read your paragraph and thing we men want a weak, cowering woman, who is only good for sex, and cooking us meals, and that isn’t what I think you were saying 

      1. 2.1.1

        Agreed, Adrian.  Sorry if my language was unclear (and I admit it was).  “Strength and independence” is too ambiguous.  I meant it in the modern, feminist sense of the phrase to indicate a woman who displays what most men would consider to be masculine traits, such as aggressiveness.  I certainly did not mean it to imply that men want women who are content to be treated as second-class citizens.

      2. 2.1.2

        You hit the nail on the head when you write “it’s just how the women in our lives display it.” Men and women communicate differently so if a women communicate like a men, chances are you will be treated like a buddy. Period.  

      3. 2.1.3

        Well, strangely enough I want “Xena the warrior-princess” and I want to be treated as one of the guys by my GF (no, I am not bisexual or anything)…but I am not normal anyway:

        – I don’t want kids (ever!)
        – I don’t want to get married
        – I don’t really want to live together either (if she really wants it I’d probably agree, but it’s not what I dream about, as I like to decorate my own place and if you live with someone else, it’s all about compromise which happens to be: She decorates the whole house with the exception of the “man cave” (you need it because everything else is her’s more or less -.-))

        So yeah, I am not normal – for example I can’t connect with overly emotional girly girls…prefer tomboys 🙂 who don’t need my support, my protection or god forbid my providing for them (that’s my deffinition of HELL…I am not a damned meal-ticket -.-)…I want a real independent woman (note: I don’t want to be bossed around though – I want true equality in a relationship) who can accept that I am independent, too and not to be walked over/dominated…

      4. 2.1.4

        Maybe you don’t, but there are plenty of men that would love the Xena the warrior princess type. I want a lover and a friend if you don’t want to be both than you welcome to find another woman and I’ll go after the guys that do. I’m not going to change who I am for a guy.  And if I’m not feminine enough for you than your not my target audience. But changing who you are for a partner never works in the long run.

    2. 2.2

      I want complimentarity.  I would like that exchange of male/female energy, the yin/yang.
      I don’t want an androgynous slop pile that passes for a relationship.
      Are you the same jeremy that say women should initiate kissing in the courtship thread, or was that another jeremy ?  I’m getting confused, because here you seem to be advocating for complimentarity, and in the courtship you (or another poster named jeremy) seemed to be advocating for women to “man up” and initiate with men.

      1. 2.2.1

        You know Emerald, I was always perplexed by many of the comments by the men who seem to come out to the woodwork -so to speak- only whenever the topics of courtship and dating etiquette comes up, but your comment in the “9 Reasons why you usually choose the wrong guy” blog gave me an epiphany.

        It’s not about the money or the work that many guys are actually fighting against, that’s just a smoke screen. Many of the men just are afraid of starting to really like a woman and then after 2 or 3 dates along with the 2 weeks or more of back and forth e-mailing, plus phone conversations, he really likes her, while she is just “giving him a chance” to see if her attraction for him grows. I always hear of women doing this, but most men don’t operate like this. If he isn’t trying to just sleep with a woman (because a man will sleep with a woman he is not attracted to but not court her) but he actually wants to date her, he tries to date her, make her his girl.

        “Most” men don’t waste time seeing if his attraction will grow for a woman, if he wants just sex, he will give her minum attention, if he wants more he will give her lots of attention. And from what I’ve read on this site and many like it, that is how women and men differ. “Many” woman will give a guy who she only has slight attraction for a chance as long as he meets her other relationship requirements. So to many of the male posters on this site, Evan’s advice of as long as she says yes, she likes you, isn’t true! A woman will say yes, at least to a second date to give him one more chance.

        I’m not saying woman are wrong for this, or that the guys are wrong, I’m just saying that most guys aren’t alpha type personalities. So for the majority of men, when he gets the courage to ask out a woman who he thinks is attractive (a woman who without the safety of the internet, he probably would never approach in real life), and she has both e-mail and phone conversations with him, Plus!!! She says yes to a second date! His world is on cloud 9, but she is just giving him one more try.

        Anyway Emerald, I think that is why guys like jeremy were saying they want woman to call them, ask them out, kiss them first, because many guys don’t have the confidence to just keep putting 100% into a woman who “only” says yes to a date, never calls him unless he calls first, never suggest going on a date together unless he ask her. So a woman initiating some of those things, will be a sign to him that it’s mutual attraction. Again Evan’s advice is excellent, unfortunately it’s geared more toward alpha type males in my opinion.

        Anyway, this is just all my opinion, that came to me, yesterday after reading your comment about the guy who you “hurt” by giving a chance to.   

        1. EmeraldDust

          Thank you for your response Adrian.
          It it rather a quandry, deciding to give a man a chance, or let him go if there’s no feeling of attraction.
          I have been berated by men, when I have declined a 2nd date, with “You didn’t even give me a chance”, and in the last incident I described I was berated for “leading him on”.  What’s a girl to do ?   I think what it boils down to is we ALL hate to be rejected.  So if we were rejected immediately we will pout about not having been given a chance, if after a handful of dates we get rejected, then we’ll complain about having been led on.
          Let’s face it.  Rejection stinks !  Giving it, getting it, and trying to figure out if you should bail now,  or trying to figure if the person you are seeing is just 1 or 2 dates away from rejecting you, it can all be pretty tiresome.
          I guess that’s why no one likes to be the initiator, because they are the FIRST one to dive head first into the possibility of being rejected.
          I keep telling myself NEVER AGAIN, if I don’t feel it right away, I won’t lead anyone on.  But then someone tells their story of how they met a guy who “wasn’t their type” but they gave him a chance and now they are madly in love.  I tend to think some of these are online fictions trying to convince women to give guys a chance (RARELY if EVER do I see a male telling a similar tale of giving the plain Janer a chance and becoming charmed by her inner beauty)  but I know it sometimes happens for real.
          And EVERY time a guy rejects me, my 20/20 hindsite kicks in, and I think to myself, I should have KNOWN !  (unless a guy I wasn’t into “rejects” me, then I am relieved) 
          Good news is, most women can’t give a guy “a chance” for much more than 3 dates.  A perfunctory knowledge of reading social cues, should clue you in to weather she really likes you, or just doesn’t know how to say “no”.  Stiffening up and pulling away at your touch, are 2 major clues.  Even 2-3 dates that leads to a dead end seems like too much time wasted, but until you meet the one and it clicks, there’s not much else to do.
          I won’t make the first moves on a guy physically because of what you said, a guy will sleep with a girl, even if he doesn’t really like her.  I need to know that he’s trying to make me his girl.  So even tho’ I won’t make the first move, if I want HIM to make a move, I make myself approachable to being kissed, but I won’t actually lean in and plant one on his lips.  If I do NOT want to be kissed, my body language is more closed (not even deliberately, it just is)  and it’s like trying to kiss a moving target. 

        2. Christina

          Hi EmeraldDust, 

          I am commenting on your post about rejection. In the past, I have had similar sentiments, I am open to getting to know someone first and worry about letting them down easy. Other women don’t worry too much about it. I realised I was just being nice and being nice sometimes brings me unnecessary dilemmas as well. The thing is I don’t take it too hard when I do get rejected, I just put it down to incompatibility and risk of dating. So why do some men and women feel so lousy about it? We can’t expect everyone to like or love us, just as we can’t expect us to like or love everyone. We just click with some, don’t with others. If I get such feedback as you did, “You didn’t even give me a chance” and “leading him on”. This will reaffirm this is not the guy for me. I make the choice to so call give a chance or not, he needs to respect my boundaries. Rejection is the exact opposite of leading him on. It is out of honesty and respect that someone makes it clear in an upfront manner as soon as they realise that it isn’t going to work and save each other time and energy which can go towards someone who willingly wants a second date. How can 1 date be leading him on, anyhow? It boggles the mind.

          I have since decided to be kind and polite when conveying my rejection but not take responsibility for their reaction to it and my life is better for it. 

      2. 2.2.2

        @ Emerald Dust
        Sorry for my late response to you.  I’ve been off this blog for a while. 
          I think you may have mis-understood what I wrote about women initiating the first kiss, though I know we had a lengthy discussion about it.  I never disagreed with the concept of traditional gender roles – most people (men and women) are most comfortable within those roles (at least to some extent).  My point in that post was that in courting a woman, men are using feminine language to express their masculine message.  Basically, instead of just coming up to a lady and saying “hey, I want to have sex with you” (ie. overt communication), they couch their message in covert displays of interest – taking her out, buying her flowers, etc – doing things that cost them effort and money, for the woman’s benefit.  The question there was how can a woman reciprocate for that effort, and my point was that the obvious way in which she could reciprocate is to couch a feminine message in masculine (overt) language for his benefit.  As an example, she could lean over and kiss him.  If you don’t like that example, feel free to find another – but the point was that there should be some reciprocation in courtship.  My point was NOT that we should re-engineer society and overturn traditional gender roles – and especially not in mature relationships or marriages.
          Evan has written extensively that what men “want” in relationships is a woman who is attractive and emotionally-giving.  This is absolutely true, IMHO.  Most men are more than happy to work and provide for a woman who provides him with a “home” – not just his house, but rather an emotional state where he can return, emotionally and physically, to experience peace and comfort.  Most men would far prefer a woman like that to a challenging, highly educated, high-earning woman who contributes the same thing to the marriage that he does.
          Whereas, IME, most women want something else from marriage.  They want love, true, but they also want a stable nest to raise children, they want to be able to make choices of whether or not to stay home with those children, and they want a certain amount of status in society that both marriage and motherhood will provide for them.  Women rely less on their husbands for emotional receptivity, because most women have female friends and relatives who provide that for them.  Thus, women focus on male attributes of power, while women focus on female attributes of receptivity.

        This is how we work.  We can fight it, but statistics show that the more we deviate from traditional roles, the more likely it is to have marital break-down.

    3. 2.3


      I could not agree more if I wrote this post myself.  Human nature IS HUMAN NATURE. And while there will always be deviations, there is a reason why after centuries upon centuries and although times have changed drastically, there are still recurring themes that will always stick (more or less).

      Some examples:

      1. Women usually want men who are taller. I know, I know…short men are great. But as much as it DEFIES logic, it will remain true. It doesn’t mean we won’t date short or shorter men but if two men are walking by and they are equally attractive with equal benefits, the woman will more often than not go for the one that is taller.  For men, it is hip to waist ratio.

      2. Women tend to want men that are masculine. I am not talking macho here but we want our men to at least have masculine energy period!

      3. Women want men who out earn them IF given a choice.  Personally, I could care less as long as you have a job and can take care of yourself BUT IF GIVEN THE CHOICE, I would want him to out earn me or at least match me in that area…it’s the truth.

      I have many more but you catch my drift.  There is a biological mechanism at work. Men are NOT attracted to ‘strong’ and ‘independent’ although those are great qualities to have but it will never be a selling point for MOST men.  Men are also attracted to beauty (however that is defined in the society from which we live).  They usually could care less about ‘security’ when deciding on a woman.

      Personally, I want a man who is smarter than me…I know, I know how that sounds but I am sick and tired of being the smarter one who always has to figure out the answer. I would like for once to be able to relax.    


    4. 2.4

      We want men to do this but ONLY for us… With their agency they’ve  taken the liberty to write in I will f other women on the side behind your back too! That’s where the equality needs to be- he wants side meat, we get it too.

  3. 3

    Modern (i.e., pseudo) feminism (and its corollaries such as AA, race/gender-based welfare, etc.) sold women a really bad bill of goods. The sad reality is this warped notion of “equality” in relationships tried to override genetic coding of men as leaders, and it’s gone horribly for everyone. At the end of the day, though the overall net effect is negative, men still come out for the better – they simply do better single, especially emotionally.

    1. 3.1


      For the record, one person can be the leader in a relationship but both people can still be equals.  For me, being equal simply means having the same values. However, our roles may be different.  You blame feminism and I blame the extreme and unfair prejudices that women have had to suffer when men were ‘leaders’ in more archaic societies.  When you look at the world where most men are allowed to leave, what have been the consequences? (I’ll wait).  Look at how women have been treated when men were allowed to ‘lead’.

      So while I do like my man to ‘lead’, I will counter your point that men in general did not understand that leadership does not mean total domination where the woman isn’t allowed to have a point of view and that is what brought on feminism as a response and that is what brought on why we are here today unfortunately. So, dont blame women for the political and societal changes that created this. Maybe if were allowed to vote in peace and have jobs without having to fight for everything to gain some freedom, we won’t be in this quandary.


      1. 3.1.1

        same value, not ‘same values’

      2. 3.1.2

        Aargh…forgive the rest of my typos but I think you got the gist.

        ‘lead’ not ‘leave’, etc. 

    2. 3.2

      Men do better single? Is that why there are higher rates of suicide and violence amongst chronically unattached men who have limited or no access to women? Is that why marriage has always been looked at as a way to civilize MEN more so than women? Also, I wish people would stop defaulting to this “genetic coding” fallacy to prop up their glib understanding of biology. 

      1. 3.2.1
        Lucey D

        Exactly. Beautiful Michelle.

  4. 4

    Well, here’s an interesting (to me) point related to this post.  My mother has 2 sisters and 3 brothers.  All 6 of them attended university and grad school (they’re all in their 80s and 90s now, so this was quite unusual at the time.)  The 3 sisters went on to wed men who liked them bc they were kind, thoughtful and pretty.  The 3 brothers married women who were uneducated and totally financially dependent, but also attractive and fun.   In other words, these 6 men were neither threatened nor disappointed by their ladies’ money/lack of money or education/ lack of education; they simply cared about other qualities
    Fast forward decades later (say, the 1980s) and all 6 of these men have daughters.  Guess what?  All of them want their daughters to be educated, independent, articulate, and worldly.  They boast not about how sweet and easy-going their daughters are, but rather the fine schools they attend, the languages they speak and the awards they win.    Before you jump down my throat about this being shallow, I’m not arguing that this is a good or bad thing.  I just think it’s fascinating that even these men (and I have found this to be quite typical amongst all the dads I know) who prioritised looks, gentle natures and non-threatening demeanour in their choice of mates went on to prioritise accomplishment, keen wit and strength in their daughters. 

    1. 4.1

      This is because most fathers want to protect their daughters from the worse type of men. Men who would use them just for sex, or who will get her pregnant and then leave her as a single mother, so they feel that the smarter she is, the better she will be at choosing better types of men. It’s our belief in modern society that Adrian who graduated from Yale and now he is a heart surgeon, is a better quality men for daddy’s sweet little girl then Luke who barely graduated high school and now only makes about $20,000 a year doing what he loves as a auto mechanic.

      I can’t say this is right or wrong, true or false, but from what I’ve seen, it’s how most fathers think, Protect… Protect… Protect. These fathers think like this because they know how they treated women when they were younger. When a man says that he wants to protect his daughter from guys like himself that is a huge red flag to me (I’m not homosexual, I just meant it’s a red flag as far as me thinking is this a person I want to be around). I see a lot of divorced fathers treat women like just something to use for sex, but the moment he thinks his daughters boyfriend is going to try to get to 2nd base with his daughter then, he is a bad guy, who will just use his precious daughter… What?!!! Aren’t the woman you use, someone’s daughter also?   

  5. 5

    For the sake of clarity, how exactly would you define a Type B man? 🙂

      1. 5.1.1

        This is probably one of the better examples of beta males that I have read, it doesn’t put him down or make him seem weak or inferior. My only fear in you telling A type women to get B type men is that she will criticize him for not being as ambitious or try to push him to be more… whatever! 

        I’m not talking about the guy who lives in his mom’s basement, working part-time at  the video game store for the discounts, I’m talking about the nice, comfortably successful guy who is smart enough and talented enough to do more and be more, but he is content with what he is doing and where he is, I fear an Alpha woman will not be able to blend with him.

        From what I’ve seen, most Beta type males are more sensitive, more emotional, while Alpha type woman don’t express emotion well or often, will she be able to show him that she “does” care about him? Has feelings for him? Will he be strong enough to keep trying with the lack of emotion reciprocated? Patient enough? Evan someone who you are couching is one thing, but a Alpha woman without your guidance?… Maybe an Alpha would be more suited for a Omega type

  6. 6

    “Nice guy with balls and a job” would be ideal.  It hasn’t been much discussed on this site, but I have found that many nice guys are chronically under-employed.  I don’t actually care much about money or job-status for its own sake but in dating these fellows, I’ve found that the lack of either can make men feel terrible about themselves and this insecurity leaks into their romantic relationships.  

    1. 6.1

      Agreed. Not all women mind, it is sometimes the men that mind. 

      1. 6.1.1

        Christina,  I agree with you.. Some wonderful men who have not achieved everything they want to achieve financially seem to be insecure and maybe not want a relationship with women  who have more.. Does anybody have an answer in how to handle men like this??

  7. 7
    Karmic Equation


     I’m not sure if women are looking for “equal partners” per se. But whatever most women are looking for are unrealistic. Too many women think of tradeoffs as “settling”, e.g., “If he’s not the Alpha guy that excites me, then I’m “settling” for the beta guy who’s bores me.”

    I read a lot, so forgive me if I can’t remember where I read this (paraphrased): Beta men can win their women by simply being alpha in the bedroom.

    My ex-boyfriend of 6 years was exactly that. He was also a reformed bad boy (grew up skirting the law every now and again, but had become law abiding by the time we met).
    He was always agreeable to what I wanted to do. Sometimes bewilderingly beta. Once we were at a restaurant and I suggested we get an appetizer, and that he could choose since he was the pickier eater. He couldn’t decide. So I narrowed down the list for him from the 8 on the menu to the 3 I’d like. He STILL said “I can’t decide.” So I chose the chicken wings. Then we ordered our entrees, which came with two sides. He chose one of the sides that was in my list of three. And I said incredulously, why didn’t you pick that as our app, so that you can choose something else for your side, and get more variety? He just looked at me sheepishly. I just had to roll my eyes at the one. Didn’t make sense. But in bed, I didn’t have to initiate or ask him to do anything. He took charge.
    Then my boyfriend after him was very alpha OUTSIDE the bedroom and 50/50 alpha/beta in the bedroom. I thought that made him sweet.
    If I were to summarize, I think most women want that  agreeable, lets-do-everything-together, worships-the-ground-we-walk-on guy, who helps with the household chores and childcare. But that guy needs to exert his alpha-ness in bed if he’s that beta guy out of bed. This isn’t really surprising. I think guys want the equivalent: “A lady in the living room and a whore in the bedroom.”
    For the record, when I can say “whore in the bedroom”, that does NOT mean “being a freak between the sheets” or doing anything that you’re uncomfortable with. I think I’m very vanilla – no anal, no swallowing, yada yada. Quite boring. But I make the guy feel like he’s the best lover EVER because I’m extremely responsive to whatever he does that doesn’t violate my vanilla sensibilities. I let him know sometimes verbally, oftentimes non-verbally, that he turns me on no end. THAT is what MOST men want when they say “whore in the bedroom”. He might be impressed that you can tie a cherry stem with your tongue. But that doesn’t mean you’re into HIM. That’s what he wants. 
    You’re welcome.
    Getting back to the point about being “unrealistic” when looking for a partner, this article says it best:


    1. 7.1

      And do you really think men are ‘more’ realistic?? Again, maybe it’s just where I live but I always see loadsss of women ‘settling’ and ‘compromising’ whether it be financially, physically (and especially physically) and emotionally. 
      On the other hand, I rarely meet a man who doesn’t think he deserves a super model or at least a woman who looks hot (even though he may not be attractive), expects her to work a 9 to 5 while being a whore in the bedroom on a daily, cook, clean and take excellent care of the kids while maintaining a small waistline.  I think there is MUCH more pressure on women to be ‘perfect’. 
      This is why the 65 year old has NO qualms to email me, a 36 year old woman, on And, I hear women make this complaint all the time.  On the other hand, I bet you would rarely come across a 65 year old woman emailing the 30 year old.  Men are the ones mostly unrealistic.

      1. 7.1.1

        Oh, and as far as sex? A woman would more likely put up with bad sex if there are ‘tradeoffs’ but a man would hardly ever (even with the same tradeoffs). While it is not okay to put up with bad sex, my point is that women tend to more willing to settle or compromise even if it includes not putting themselves at the forefront and especially if kids are in the picture.

      2. 7.1.2

        Stacey @ 7.1 – Thank you for this Stacey.  I hear NO END to complaints that all women have check lists a mile long, are too picky etc. And that men are all so very reasonable in every way.   If that is so true, why are the so many PUA courses for men that instruct them to ONLY approach 9’s and 10’s ? (except maybe to use 6 & 7 women for “target practice” )  Why does every guy think a gal who is a 6 or 7 is beneath him, even if he’s only a 5 ?
        I see men who are hugely obese complaining endlessly about overweight women.  I am not talking about men with toned arms and legs and just a little bit of a gut.  I am talking about two men I know who are HUGE, who have a special loathing for overweight women.  (Two men that I have worked with I have personally heard their anti fat women rants )  I don’t know what is up with these big overweight men (not husky, not stocky) who feel that they are entitled to a Barbie Doll.
        The other thing too about men and their entitled to a super model mentality, is that not only do they want a hot 10 for arm candy (even if they are a fat, balding 50+ dude) but they resent that women who aren’t 9s and 10s are even allowed to exist on the planet.  Not only do they demand a hot woman for their own, they think the world owes them an endless parade of eye candy and a world scrubbed clean of women who don’t meet their super model standards.
        EVERYONE needs to bite a reality sandwich, not just one gender.  

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          But what reality sandwich are we serving on this blog?

        2. EmeraldDust

          The reality sandwich I’ve been having is:
          50+ women who are 6 or 7 on a scale of 10 and outnumbered by men 2 to 1 better learn to love cats. 
          That is served up with a nice steaming hot bowl of low calorie “You aren’t getting any younger” soup.  
          And low fat, sugar free, Humble Pie for dessert.  🙂

        3. Chance


          We can always complain about how unrealistic the opposite sex is about their expectations, but at the end of the day, that’s just our perception of things.  In reality, there is only one true judge of whether standards are realistic:  the market.  It doesn’t matter what you think, and it doesn’t matter what I think – the dating market will sort it out.  With the prevalence of online dating in this day and age, the dating market has become fairly efficient, and most people can quickly gain a pretty good understanding of the types of people that are good matches for them.  

          As a result, the market reveals the people who truly have unrealistic expectations, which are the folks who perpetually find themselves wanting the people who don’t want them and not wanting the people who want them.

      3. 7.1.3
        Karl R

        Stacy said:
        “This is why the 65 year old has NO qualms to email me, a 36 year old woman, on And, I hear women make this complaint all the time.  On the other hand, I bet you would rarely come across a 65 year old woman emailing the 30 year old.”

        That’s a mismatched comparison. Compared to men, women rarely email men (of any age).

        Furthermore, as the person making the initial approach, it’s necessary for a man to be “optimistic”. Most of the women men approach (of any age, appearance, etc.) will say “No.” Making the minimal effort to approach someone who is a little out of our league is just worse odds than usual … with a potentially high payoff.

        Back in 2008 there were a couple women that I was considering dating. One had clearly indicated that she was interested in dating me (even while I was dating my previous girlfriend). It was a sure thing. The other was clearly friendly, and I thought she might be interested in me. However, the second lady was someone who “looked great on paper”. In that regard, she was more impressive than every woman I had dated before or since.

        Naturally, I asked the more impressive woman out first. And she said yes. Over the next several weeks, I discovered that there was a trade-off to dating her. (She had a horrible work/life balance, and really had no time to date.) She’s an amazing lady, but a lousy girlfriend.

        I dated the “sure thing” next. That relationship lasted a little longer, but it didn’t work out in the long run either.

        I’m glad that I dated both of them. And in that order.

        Stacy said:
        “I rarely meet a man who doesn’t think he deserves a super model or at least a woman who looks hot”

        Your choice of words illustrates how most women are less realistic than most men. 

        What you “deserve” is irrelevant in dating. The only thing that matters is “what you can get”.

        It’s a different mindset, and it makes a huge difference in how realistic your approach is. 

        Can I date a woman who is 11 years younger than me? Yep. I’ve done so twice.
        Can I date a petite woman? Yep. I’ve done so multiple times.
        Can I date a doctor who earns triple my salary? Yep. I’ve done that.
        Can I date a woman with an IQ of 160+? Yep. I’ve done so twice.
        Can I date a petite woman? Yep. I’ve dated several.
        Can I date a woman with enormous breasts? Yep. I’ve dated a couple.
        Can I date a woman who is 8+ in looks? Yep. I’ve dated several.
        Can I date a woman who is terrific in bed? Yep. I’ve dated a few.
        Can I date a woman who doesn’t want kids? Yep. I’ve dated a bunch of them.
        Can I date a woman who is a great dancer? Yep. I’ve dated several.
        Can I date a woman who is easy to get along with? Yep. I married one.

        How did I find out that I could date women with all of those traits? I asked them out.

        Can I get everything listed above in the same package? Not based on my personal experience. In every case, there’s a trade-off. 

        I have never heard a man talk about the kind of woman he “deserves”. I’ve heard them talk about what kind of they want. I’ve heard them talk about what kind of women they have dated. I’ve heard them talk about the women they’re going to ask out.

        I have heard many men talk about a certain ex-girlfriend and say, “I have no idea what she saw in me.” What we deserve and what we get are two different things.

        None of those men later claimed that they “settled” when they dated/married women who wasn’t equally amazing as the ex-girlfriend.

        1. Tre

          Just because you Karl have never heard men talk about the kind of women he deservesbdoes not mean men never talk that way.  But thanks for sharing your dating history Lol

        2. Adrian

          That is the thing that I have noticed about confident people -male or female-, they focus more on what they want, and if they feel like they deserve a hot guy/girl who is intelligent, kind, etc… They go after that.

          Also I think it was Anthony Robinson who said that, you can train your mind by doing something and getting positive results, so you believe if you did it once, you can do it again, e.g. getting the type of woman/man you want.

          The problem with many woman is that they wait for a guy to ask them out first, so of course the 8’s-9’s will seem like only they can get the hot successful guys, while the 6’s and below just get the 7’s and above back burner guys. Then you see a average or even below average looking guy with a hot woman and you are like… HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?!!! Simple, he “ASKED”. Even a blind pig will find an occasional truffle. We don’t know how many “No’s” he had to endure to get that 1 yes. 

          Why do you think Evan and other dating experts encourages women to initiate contact online instead of just waiting for the type of guy she wants to contact her first. I think “many” woman only want guys to be equal only in the things they want him to be equal in and not in every aspect of dating, basically it has to be the way she wants it to be. But that’s fine, because many guys are like that also, traditional in some things and modern in others. I know this may be hard for some woman to believe but, many men don’t want a stepford wife.

          Karl, I love how you put petite twice! (^_^)   

        3. Stacy

          Please replace ‘mismatched’ with ‘delusional’.  Even if men are the ones who initiate more (and by the way, ‘seemingly’ desirable men tend to be approached very often online since I have male friends who get loads of emails as well).  For a man in the 65 to 70 year old category to email a woman in her mid-thirties and think he can stand a chance shows the entitlement complex that a lot of men have.  I guarantee you that there are many, MANY women he can find in his age group and a little below.  I guarantee you that when women initate, they are 10 times more likely to be MORE realistic with whom they match up with period!
          And Karl, even if you find that your male friends don’t talk much about their choices in women and what they think they deserve (even though my experience has been different but I digress), you will have your answer when you look at their choices, society, and what the media preaches.  Shucks, back to my online examples…even if a 60-70 year old man doesn’t think he DESERVES a woman in her mid 30s, he thinks he can realistically acquire a woman of that age range (and might I toot my own horn and say a damn attractive one at that).  That is his reality because of what our society perpetuates.  You will never see a female Hugh Heffner in a playgirl mansion.  Or, you won’t see women looking like Donald Trump marrying gorgeous models half their age. Whoppi Goldberg is rich but you don’t see hot 25 year olds vying for her affection (sorry Whoppi).


        4. Joe

          Since pigs use their sense of smell to find truffles, I’d say it doesn’t matter whether or nor a pig is blind–it’ll find the truffles anyway.

        5. Karmic Equation


          But Stacy, you’re still viewing relationships through the lens of being female and basing how men should behave as seen through the value system of a woman.
          Women don’t value looks the way men do. Women value money and status in a man. That’s why Hugh Hefner exists. Because hot 20-30 yo’s want access to his fame, wealth, and lifestyle. Hugh Hefner CAN date 20-30 yo’s, not because he’s hot (he’s not, I question if he ever was) — but because his money says he can.
          And instead of finding fault with Hugh Hefner for dating 20yo’s, you should be berating those gold-diggers for glomming onto Hugh. But really, they’re all adults. Hugh knows he’s paying for sex. The girls know they’re pimping themselves out. Who am I to judge if they’re all happy in his mansion? It’s not like I want Hugh for myself. I would love his money, but not if it comes with Hugh. LOL
          A 72 year-old chided me for not having an expansive enough age range (I had 35-55, I’m 47). When I looked at his profile, as a 72 yo, his max range was 65. Hypocrite? Very seldom do I send chiding emails to men, but because he chided me, I felt the need to call him on being a hypocrite. And he wasn’t even rich, or fit. It’s possible he was good looking to women in his age group. But definitely not to me. If he hadn’t chided me, I would have ignored his email like all the other emails from men from any age whose pictures didn’t attract me.
          Anyway, I don’t waste my time wondering if that man thinks he deserves me or anyone else in my age range. I just think he’s a deluded soul who isn’t going to find love because he’s unrealistic in what he can get.
          I’ll admit that far more men find me attractive than I find them. Since I wasn’t dating to find relationships, I could date men “out of my league” and enjoy myself. Now that I’m finally ready to love again, dating those super hot guys is not at the top of my list anymore. I’ve downgraded to “men I find attractive” — which means they’re still good looking but I’m looking for commitment-oriented over overt sex-appeal. Not surprisingly, those men are springing up now.
          What your mind focuses on is what it leads you to. Your subconscious doesn’t judge whether your thoughts are good or bad thoughts. It just knows you have those thoughts. And like a child, your subconscious believes that if you’re thinking the thoughts, that must be what you’re looking for. And voila, that’s why you and Emerald can’t find nice men, because you believe men are scum. I happen to think men are awesome. And it so happens, I’m surrounded by awesome. The awful ones, my mind automatically dismisses.
          Train your mind to look for what you want, not for what makes you right.
          You’re find your guy faster that way.


      4. 7.1.4

        Chance @  7.1……..
           For the record, and this might be a matter of semantics, but I don’t EXPECT anything from the dating market, but I know what I WANT.
           Having a man in my life isn’t a necessity, so there is no reason to try and want the ones who want me if I don’t want them.  There’s also no reason to try and convince anyone to want me if they don’t.  (for one thing, it doesn’t work, and another thing, it’s undignified)
           At this point in my life, I expect to be ALONE.  I go to singles events for people 50+.  What I see are men standing with their arms folded across their chest refusing to approach anyone, and the women are either throwing themselves at men and getting no response or women spend the evening chatting with other women.  I always joke that I enjoy these singles events, because I always expand my circle of very nice women friends.  I have gotten a handful of dead end dates at singles events (or meet ups, or other real life venues)  but never a real relationship.  But I have a very nice circle of women friends. 
          So, I’m not sure what you mean when you talk about people’s “expectations”.  Perhaps you mean “desires”.  I have my “desires”, and I guess you could say they are “unrealistic”, but they are what they are.  It’s not at all realistic to expect someone to couple up long term with someone they are not at all attracted to, or not at all compatible with, just because that person “wants” them.
           Usually attraction is the FIRST thing I notice is there (and vice-versa) so that is usually where potential relationships get de-railed.  Compatibility takes a little longer to figure out.  (and usually, if it’s a MAJOR incompatibility, it pretty much kills any former attraction that might have been felt) 
          But I’m not going to couple up with someone who’s touch makes me cringe, just because HE wants me.  I have to want him too.  When did mutual desire in a relationship become a bad thing ?
          If I find mutual compatibility and attraction and it forms into a relationship, then I’ll be pleasantly surprised, but I am not EXPECTING it.  I am creating a fairly content single life, and someone on this blog said being mostly happy in my single life is also a problem.  Sheeesh. 
          And for those who INSIST that ONLY women have check lists, and are nit picky, etc. I suggest going to an online bookseller and read a few pages into “Have him at Hello”.  The author admits that men go over women with a fine tooth comb, just looking for a reason, any petty little reason at all  to eliminate them. So much for women being the picky gender.
          Both genders want what they want. No ONE gender has a monopoly on that.

        1. Chance

          I was referring to the unrealistic expectations that you claim that men have, such as:
          “Why does every guy think a gal who is a 6 or 7 is beneath him?”

          “The other thing too about men and their entitled to a super model mentality, is that not only do they want a hot 10 for arm candy (even if they are a fat, balding 50+ dude) but they resent that women who aren’t 9s and 10s are even allowed to exist on the planet.”

        2. twinkle

          @Chance: Yes I also don’t agree with some of those statements about men that Emerald Dust said. Personally I don’t think most men are that unrealistic, or there would be a lot more single folks around. ^^

        3. twinkle

          And btw I say that even while smarting from the sting of rejection after not being asked out for a 6th date this weekend. I think I know the reason–a fairly trivial reason IMO, which is annoying–but I can’t/won’t conclude from that experience that most men are unrealistic in their expectations. Which is good because it’s that optimism that will help our recovery from the rejection(s) we face and allow us to keep going. 🙂

        4. EmeraldDust

          Twinkle and Chance at  . . .
           Twinkle you said “Personally I don’t think most men are that unrealistic, or there would be a lot more single folks around. ^^”    Well, than that must mean most women aren’t that unrealistic either, or how else do you explain that there aren’t a whole lot more single folks around.  And if the internet myth that all women are holding out for a 6 foot tall, rich, handsome, super athlete, how to you explain all the under 6 foot, average looking married men ?
          Chance – Your attitude still seems to be, that if a MAN is single, it’s because women are being “unrealistic” or too picky, but if a woman is single, it because SHE is being “unrealistic” or “too picky” or doesn’t understand her SMV. 
          Chance, are you in a relationship ?  If not, why do you think that is ?  You are too picky, women are too picky, or you just haven’t found your match ?
          And I am really puzzled that people want to blame single women as being inferior in some way and that’s the ONLY explanation for their singledom. (But when men are single and don’t want to be, then they are victims of women)   We are ALL flawed in some manner and being married doesn’t make you some sort of other worldly paragon of virtue.  Over half of marriages end in divorce (and women are held 100% responsible for that)  and the other half of marriage are pretty shitty.
          One GOOD thing about being single, is at least you aren’t stuck in a crap marriage.
          I’ve been happily married, miserably married, & learned to be contentedly single, and while happily married is the BEST, contentedly single is NOT the worse.  Miserably married is.

        5. Stacy


          Goodness, you speak the truth!  

        6. Chance


          Hey, don’t give up so easily:).  Five dates is a good amount of dates.  Have you two been asking each other out during this timeframe, or has he initiated them?  If he has, then I see no harm if you ask him to get together this weekend.  After a handful of dates, he may be wondering if you’ll initiate (if you haven’t done so already).  What’s the worst that can happen?  If he says no, who cares?  Best wishes to you.


           “Chance – Your attitude still seems to be, that if a MAN is single, it’s because women are being “unrealistic” or too picky, but if a woman is single, it because SHE is being “unrealistic” or “too picky” or doesn’t understand her SMV.

          I’m not quite sure where you’re getting this from.  Could you please copy/paste the comment where I indicated this? 

           “Chance, are you in a relationship ?  If not, why do you think that is ?  You are too picky, women are too picky, or you just haven’t found your match ?”

          Yes, I am.  When I was single, I did not think men or women were too picky as a whole.  i thought then what I think now:  that there are only unrealistically picky individuals.  As i previously mentioned, these people are the ones who perpetually find themselves wanting people who don’t want them and not wanting the people who want them.

        7. twinkle

          Hi Chance, thanks so much for your well-wishes. He had initiated the 1st 5 dates. Anyway before seeing your comment, I’d actually asked him if things were ok between us, and he told me he’d gone out of town last weekend (without teling me, but hey I do the same thing, lol) but wanted to see me this weekend. 🙂
          Now I’m angry at myself for initiating contact, as I don’t want to establish this as a habit between us. But I couldn’t help it as I felt down and perplexed. I know some guys like u think a woman initiating dates is totally fine, but there are some traditional guys who may not like a woman ever taking the lead. Anyway, it’s done now so not point worrying.
          Good luck to u too in your dating endeavours! 🙂

        8. twinkle

          @Emerald Dust: ” Well, than that must mean most women aren’t that unrealistic either, or how else do you explain that there aren’t a whole lot more single folks around”.
          My view is similar to Chance’s on this, I don’t think most women are very unrealistic in dating.
          Statements like this “The other thing too about men and their entitled to a super model mentality, is that not only do they want a hot 10 for arm candy (even if they are a fat, balding 50+ dude) but they resent that women who aren’t 9s and 10s are even allowed to exist on the planet” don’t jive with my experiences.
          I’m no 9 or 10, and guys don’t seem to despise me or wish that I didn’t exist. I think u had said on another post that most guys would ditch a woman if she didn’t sleep with him by the 3rd date, with an extension to 5 dates if she’s a 9 or 10. But the more I thought about it, the more that also doesn’t hold true in my experience.
          By the way, I’ve never stated or felt that single women must be inferior. Many are single by choice, and even for those who aren’t, it’s not that they’re inferior, but that they don’t have certain attributes the average man wants in a gf–which doesn’t necessarily make them inferior. For eg, IF (hypothetically, but I don’t really believe it’s true) men prefer demure women, and a woman with a strong personality doesn’t meet guys who want to date her, that does not mean she’s inferior at all.

        9. EmeraldDust

          Chance @  . . .   said “I’m not quite sure where you’re getting this from.  Could you please copy/paste the comment where I indicated this?
          Ok, I guess you specifically didn’t say that women are always the “too picky” ones and men are oh so reasonable, but that just seems to be the over arching theme in the dating advice Universe.  (That all that is wrong in the world of male/female realtionships is 100% the fault of women)   But I can’t find anywhere in this thread where you said or implied that, so I guess I just got you mixed up with someone else. I apologize.
          And BTW, when I talk of “men” who demand that all women look like super models, etc. of course it’s not all men, (and probably not even most men), but there does seem to be a pervasive attitude (perpetrated by the media) that women were put on this earth to look beautiful for men and if they fail in that respect they are worthless.  (I posted more extensively in another post about a radio station that was running a hate campaign against over weight women.  Their campaign was called “No Fat Chicks” and it really was quite hateful IMO)
          So not all men, perhaps not the “patriarchy” promotes this attitude towards women, but the mass media (the “media-archy” perhaps 🙂  ) And the Universe of Dating advice seems to promote the idea that women are always at fault, and that we should just shut up and accept ANY man who will have us.  (No, not EMK, he occasionally tells men how they can improve relationships, then the manosphereans slither over here to bash him and women in general , and then go back to their own blogs and boo-hoo about the fact that there is one lone voice in the dating advice Universe that says men can improve their “game” too)
          But I don’t think the manopshereans and other assorted men who think all women owe it to them to be nothing more than some tasty eye candy represent ALL men, any more than I think the radical femi-nazi’s who claim that ALL sex is rape represent all women.  But IRL, I have heard very overwieght & unattractive men complain about overweight women.  (they need to take a look in the mirror themselves) 

      5. 7.1.5


        I think pressure can only be pressure if you buy into societal views. How about figuring out what works for YOU and putting your best foot forward? Who cares what others think? You be you and be great at being you. 

        I agree that men can be as unrealistic, as some women can be. These people aren’t clear about what they want and what they offer but have a try-their-luck mentality or are figuring out what they want. Self-awareness is a gift that not everyone has received.

        Also as Adrian mentioned above, if a man wants just sex, he wouldn’t waste much time oh the girl. I think some will employ the indiscriminately hit on everyone strategy and if a woman is vulnerable and willing to participate, all the merrier.

        I guess as women we are more conscious of appearances because whether we like it or not, we know it is a priority for men and simply because we like looking good. So when it comes to age which is linked to appearance, we have had more experience than most men on how to navigate this concern in general so the tendency to hit on someone so far off is low to none. 

        I like what you wrote above about “for me, being equal simply means having the same values. However, our roles may be different.” I never thought about it that way but it struck a cord in me. 

        1. Stacy


          And that is exactly what I do.  But when Karmic said that MOST women are unrealistic, I had to counter because in my experience, it simply is NOT true.  And while self awareness is a gift and I agree, it still does not negate the facts that there are certain expectations that both genders have and self aware or not, it WILL affect your reality.     

      6. 7.1.6
        Karmic Equation

        I don’t know if men are more realistic or not. And tbh, I don’t care if most men aren’t 🙂 And neither should you.
        The only men whose opinions you should care about are those of your close friends, family members who love you and have your best interests at heart, and men that you’re evaluating as potential long-term partners (e.g., dating)–and only take them under advisement, I’m not advocating changing your values to suit a man–but you should evaluate his opinions against what is important to you and use that knowledge to filter out men who’re not compatible.
        If you’re asking because men you’re attracted to aren’t attracted to you, then you need to re-evaluate your league and aim a little lower.
        If you’re asking because promising first dates don’t turn into second dates or because multiple dates with one man don’t materialize into a committed relationship, then you just need to accept that the men decided you weren’t compatible with them, for whatever reasons were valid to them. Men have the right to reject women after dating, too. It’s not a one-way street.
        I’ve rejected men for trivial reasons and I’ve accepted men who are walking red-flags 🙂 That’s my prerogative. That’s a man’s prerogative. That’s your prerogative. Just know consciously what you’re accepting or rejecting.
        Don’t get your hopes up until the guy is your bf. Stay realistic with your OWN expectations; be realistic about your own league; be realistic about what you bring to the relationship table. If you know your own strengths and weaknesses on those fronts, it’s a whole lot easier to identify a complementary mate.
        And most importantly, have the strength to walk away from relationships that aren’t meeting your needs, no matter how long the relationship has been in the making; no matter if you “love” him or not (love is NOT enough to build an enduring relationship); no matter how much you know it will hurt (you WILL survive–he might not, but that’s not your problem, that’s his–more men commit suicide after a relationship ends than women); no matter how afraid you are to be alone (that’s why you should maintain your friendships with good friends after you enter into a relationship–too many women drop their friends once she gets a bf).


  8. 8

    Of course I do not want a man who is exactly the same as me, if that’s what you mean by equal. But I also couldn’t have a relationship with one who has to be in control all the time, just because he’s “the guy.”
    The most successful relationship for me is with a man who is secure enough to not feel threatened by my independence, and by independence I mean that I’m with him because I WANT to be with him and genuinely like him for who he really is, not because I desperately NEED a man in my life all the time.
    He may be more intelligent than I am and better at driving and building things, but I actually respect and admire him for those talents, because he’s refreshingly humble and not an a-hole or male chauvinist.

    1. 8.1

      I think there’s some confusion surrounding “control” and “taking the lead”.  A man can be decisive without being controlling; he can be assertive while remaining thoughtful and mindful.  I

      1. 8.1.1

        And he doesn’t need to be either of those things. What you want is different than what I want. Men don’t have to X while women have to be Y. 

        1. Joe

          And neither has to be X and/or Y all the time!

  9. 9

    I read the HuffPost article and was shaking my head most of the way through 🙁  Over the years, I have witnessed many, many guy friends totally blind-sided by the sudden announcement that divorce papers have been filed (not one of them had initiated the divorce; always the woman). And it was always because she was “unhappy”. That’s it. And I myself have experienced this as well. And we have all declared to never marry again. To this day, the only successful marriages I’ve known are where both partners embraced traditional roles and fulfilled their duties. And I also happened to notice that these couples are the happiest of any I’ve ever seen. No surprise there. Wish I could find an equal like that ..

    That article really validates everything I’ve witnessed from women of this culture. Families ripped apart, children left with the agonizing choice of aligning with (e.g. – living with) one of the parents while simultaneously blaming themselves for the mess. All thanks to women abandoning their traditional roles and responsibilities (a.k.a. 3rd wave cult of Feminism). It’s madness. I fear that this country and our culture will never recover.

    However, in the mean time (with my awareness and re-aligned attitude) I will enjoy the decline as much as possible as it’s never been easier to up the ‘notch count’ as it is today (guys still have the same needs and wants). May sound harsh but it simply reflects the attitude and approach readjustment I’ve had to make for these “new rules” to meet my needs when dealing with these women who no longer feel the need to be responsible partners and parents. 

    I have no doubt that this massive culture change will ensure Evan’s job security for a long time.


    1. 9.1

      My parents have been married for 36 years in an equal relationship, they never fight. So your theory is based on your opinions not on actual facts.

      I wonder though, are you in a relationship? 

      1. 9.1.1

        This person is probably “Roosh” (or one of his acolytes) who runs an entire blog teaching men how to disrespect women, up their “notch” count, and publishes articles like “how to cheat on your girlfriend” without her finding out.  He does this while simultaneously spouting nonsense that decent, genuine, feminine, modest, compliant women no longer exist post-the 1960s, that feminism has killed the chance to find good women in America and Britain and western Europe, and encourages guys to find their “keepers” in eastern Europe, South America, and Southeast Asia, and other countries where women are still treated like crap.  He does this all while calling American and British women “diseased” “ground beef patties treated with ammonia” compared to the “filet mignon” that men ought to be getting (I couldn’t make this crap up, he literally used these words to describe the entirety of western women).  In short, ignore him – he’s a sexist pig.  

    2. 9.2

      wow look at this beacon of superior male critical thinking. His anecdotes and experiences are fact, and his confirmation bias is valid. 

      1. 9.2.1

        This is why I have no interest in the “high value” male.  While I believe there are some gems among them, I have not met them.  But then again, what is high value to me is probably not what’s considered high value by other readers.  I don’t have much patience for pretentiousness and superiority.  

    3. 9.3

      Interesting because I do not know ONE woman either personally or through friends of friends, that have initiated divorce for minor reasons. In fact, most people that I know do not take it lightly.

      The fact that most women initiate divorce proves nothing.  Or, am I correct in saying that most women initiate divorce because most men have either cheated or been abusive to them? See how that sounds?

      Sometimes I think people see what they want to see. For instance, if you are want to see most women this way, then your mind can justify that most women are that way.   Honestly, most women that I know, including myself, who have initiated divorce is because the man struggled to keep his dick in his pants. Where is this abundance of nice guys that you speak of? Hogwash!

  10. 10

    Any man who wants to “command hierarchical respect” from me can go take a hike. I’m very much for equality between the sexes in every way, as a matter of fact, I like to take control of things so they get done right (Capricorn). I am all for nice guys, no mind games or emotional abuse, just two adults in a relationship. But you can’t get that nowadays from men. 
    Additional pet peeve: a man who barely contributes financially yet wants to “take control” of the woman who juggles three jobs to make ends meet. Ironically, their dependence makes them want to put the woman down even more. No thanks, be a man with someone else. 

  11. 11

    I like guys who are confident and yet super duper sweet. My boyfriend thinks he’s a bad ass but when he sees cute animals he melts. Sometimes he seems all manly and like he doesn’t care but if I whimper about say, a little cut on my finger, he runs over and basically starts checking my pulse. My stepdad is super strong and independent, yet he bawls during movies and national anthems. I think it’s all about balance and knowing when to be what. It’s fun to play out gender roles sometimes and pretend I’m a damsel in distress. Let him feel like a big man sometimes. To me, it’s not about human nature or just how things are. To me it’s about fun and fantasy. I like imagining I’m a girly girl around my guy, all pink and rosy and feminine, even though I’m so totally not. He knows I’m not those things but it makes him feel good to see me try to be vulnerable with him. It’s fun for me to see him take control and be traditionally masculine even though the reality is that he’s a super progressive person.

    1. 11.1

      I agree so much, esp the part about liking guys who are confident yet super sweet. Luckily I’ve known many such guys, and I feel blessed to. Those player-types who are so smug about being so alpha or whatever can all go take a hike as far as I’m concerned, because the ‘confident yet super duper sweet’ guys beat them by a country mile.

  12. 12

    I don’t want a man who is my superior, but men want women who are their inferior.  (except in looks, they don’t mind, and even want a woman who is better looking than them, as it boosts their status)
    I didn’t want to believe it, but there was an article on this very blog, explaining how men’s implicit self esteem goes down if their woman does well on a test.  They get this info from a third party, so it’s not a matter of a woman rubbing his nose in her teeny-tiny accomplishment. I didn’t want to believe it, but my experiences and observations confirm it.  There are probably some men who can handle a woman’s accomplishments, but they are about as rare as a man who doesn’t look at porn.
    In days of yore, mothers counseled their daughters to never beat a man who was courting them in any kind of game.  (Cards, mini-golf, what have you) They counseled their daughters to never let on that they were smarter (if they were smarter)
    I have experienced my first boyfriend getting extremely agitated at mini golf if I beat him on a particular hole, even tho he was winning the game over all.  He was quite a bit older than me, and pretty much was my superior in every other way, but couldn’t even handle it, if I won a few holes of mini-golf, when he was the overall winner.
    My ex got all weirded out at my office party when a co-worker told him what a valuable employee I was.
    The first time I got cast in a stage play, he wasn’t supportive, he was RESENTFUL.  He just about blew up, when my friends were congratulating me on my performance in his presence.  He does not do ANY sort of performance art AT ALL, so I was not in direct competition with him.
    Growing up, I remember little boys’  BIGGEST SHAME, was to be “beaten” by a girl in ANYTHING !  They would taunt each other by saying things like “Ha-Ha, a GIRL ran faster than you”.  The presidential physical fitness competition limited the number of push ups, sit ups, etc. students could do at a 2:1 ratio.  Boys were allowed to do no more than 100, girls 50.  If a girl proudly announced that SHE did 100 push ups, or sit ups, she not only faced the glares from the boys, but the teacher would say “Well that’s very nice, but I can only count 50”.  We were told this was to protect our delicate little bodies, but I believe it was REALLY to protect the boys delicate little egos.
    The biggest moaning and complaining from the bowels of the manosphere, is HATRED at successful women.  The manosphereans are PISSED AS ALL HELL that women have successful careers, and feel they are being emasculated.  
    My ex spit out the words “Everyone KNOWS you are smarter than me” as an accusation and until then, I never thought about our relative intelligence.  (didn’t matter much to me).  I don’t know who “everyone” is that told him I was smarter. (But I do re-call an incident when one of his friend implied it)
    I am really beginning to believe that it is hard wired in men to want to excel over women.  (most men)  As the psyche experiment showed, men’s IMPLICIT self esteem went down after a controlled experiment where they learned of a minor success on the part of their woman.  They did not know they what they were being measured for or why.
    So I don’t think this unfortunate part of being male (needing to be superior to women) makes them jerks, a-holes or anything like that.  It’s not deliberate, and seems to operate in their sub conscious. Must be a biological thing, relating to wanting to protect and care for women and children. 
    So while I don’t necessarily want a man who is superior, I don’t want a man resenting ME, if I happen to be smarter, make more money (unlikely, as I am fairly low income)  have some minor successes in my life, etc.   I also don’t want to have to dumb myself down so a man can feel superior.  So I guess I’ll just have to find a man who really IS my superior, not because it’s what I want, but it makes for the happiest relationships.

    1. 12.1

      Hey girl, a good man will be proud of you when you do well in life, he won’t mind if you beat him every now and then (just don’t beat him too often in front of his buddies, lol), and he will cherish that you’ve been selected employee of the month (gives him bragging rights to his buddies about how awesome you are!) 
      When I was about to be hired permanently at my job, my boyfriend couldn’t wait to tell his friends and family about it.
      Girl, a good man is truly happy for you when you do well in life!

      1. 12.1.1
        Here’s the study.  Pretty interesting.
        I am happy you found the rare man who will celebrate your accomplishments, at least outwardly.  Hopefully inwardly he is also proud, and not harboring an unconscious inferiority complex.
        I’ve actually come to accept this as part of most men’s innate psyche and if I ever get coupled up again, I won’t share any of my major or minor successes with him, and if he asks about anything, I’ll  just give brief non-chalant answers.  He can have the spotlight.  We can talk about HIS day, HIS win at the darts tournament, how HE negotiated several grand off the price of his car, etc., etc.  If I do well at work, my co-workers can and do high five me.  If I accomplish a personal goal I’ll tell my girl tribe about it.  They will build me up and be truly happy inside and out for me.  
        The more and more I realize the concessions I’ll have to make for the male psyche, the mulligans I will have to give, how much of myself I will have to hide in order to be accepted, the easier it becomes to accept my long time, possibly permanent singledom.  Sometimes I wonder why I even want to find someone, since it means I’ll have to lose myself. I suppose if the trade off is sufficient, it might be worth it.
        I don’t think this innate need to be “better than” their mate makes men inherently good or bad, I have come to the conclusion that it is hard wired (and that this hard wiring is reinforced by society), in much the same way most women are hardwired to connect sex with things like love, emotions, bonding, giving birth, marriage etc. and society reinforces this innate feminine connection between sex and bonding. 
        Yes, yes, yes, I know it’s not ALL men, or ALL women, but since it’s MOST men (and I am like MOST women with the sex/bonding connection thing)  it only makes sense for me to operate within the framework of how MOST men are, not to try and hold out for a unicorn.

        1. Kathy

          Emerald Dust,  I had a first date last nite with someone I just intuitively knew I was going to “listen to” and praise on the first date. We are probably about equal, but he has far more choices than I do in the 50+ category. I have found that if I am totally myself(confident ) on first dates, I don’t get a second. Soooo, I have to “listen more”, “praise more” than they do.. I don’t know if men are conscious that they expect this of us or not.. probably not.
          But when I have to do this, I end up not as interested in the man than I might normally have been, because I feel like I have to “kiss up” to this ego, so to speak, to possibly keep his interest and so I can stay in the game. I was so not totally interested that I went  home and emailed a man I was keeping on the back burner until I had a date with this man. I am now more interested in this new man who has shown genuine interest in me even though he is not as nice looking as the man I had to praise. I think with this other man we will be more on an equal footing and I just think he will appreciate me more.. 
           I am not exactly chopped liver.. financially “very” secure, attractive for my age, intelligent, etc. I “do want” an equal partner.. my 2 husbands thought I was very equal and complimented me because of it. I guess they weren’t insecure.. Both were relatively wealthy and “very” well educated(a Stanford MBA and Tulane graduate). I am soooo tired of having to “kiss up” to inferior men…

        2. Karl R

          Kathy said:
          “I am soooo tired of having to ‘kiss up’ to inferior men…” 

          Really? Have you listened to the words you’re saying?

          My wife is less intelligent than me. She earns less than me. She’s older than me.

          Does that mean (relatively speaking) that she’s an inferior woman? 

          If I decide that intelligence, earning power and youth are the most important traits a person/partner can have, then my wife is definitely inferior by those standards.

          However, by choosing those qualities as the “most important” I really haven’t determined anything about the quality of my wife. I’ve actually indicated a lot more about my quality (or lack thereof) as a human being.

          “Listening more” is just a basic skill for being a better conversationalist. “Praising more” is a basic skill for being a more likable human being (regardless of whether you’re dealing with men or women). I guess it really sucks that success in dating is dependent upon the same skills required to be the kind of person that other people want to be around.

          You’re probably more intelligent than my wife. You’re probably better educated than my wife. You’re probably younger than my wife. You’re probably more attractive than my wife. However, my wife is very, very good at being a wonderful human being … to everyone … not just when she wants a second date with a “superior” man. 

          Being totally yourself may be killing your chances for a second date, but I don’t think “confidence” is to blame.

    2. 12.2

      Kathy doesn’t have kiss up to anyone.. This isn’t the 1950s, she doesn’t need a man to take care of her, so why kiss up to any man? That’s a matter of choice on Kathy’s part…

  13. 13

    We can’t have everything, every quality in a man/woman we want.
    Keyword. Trade-off. 

  14. 14

    Karl R,
    You don’t know me, so don’t be so judgmental.. My friends and family think that I am an OVER giver and I have always been known as a good listener. I have many friends that are in a bad place in their lives who stop by to “tell me about it” and I welcome trying to listen to and help them..
    Intelligence has always been high on my priority list. That is my choice.. Earning power and youth definitely are not. I am glad you are happy with your wife.. But it sounds as though you were trying to justify your choice in her to make it seem that you and she were “high quality” human beings.. You probably didn’t like my choice of words when I used the term “kiss up”.. But to state that I am a probably a lesser human being.. Really?! Believe it or not, you can be a pretty nice person and be attractive and well educated.
    The date I had on Friday.. It was his first date in FORTY years and he talked non-stop for 1 1/2 hrs. at dinner. I only got to chime in when he took a breath. He also stared at the table of women next to us during dinner who were probably 20 yrs. younger than us. I am not “just nice” to people I want a second date with. I am nice to most people, even this man who was rude at dinner. It is the men whom I AM interested in that I get the most nervous with..

    1. 14.1

      In this case I have to agree with Kathy, Karl. She never assumed stuff about your wife.
      And I second her on being tired of kissing up to inferior men. 

      1. 14.1.1

        Sorry for spam – didn’t finish the first comment:)

        Its not being polite and kind that women call “kissing up” . Its the thing that men want to be accepted as they are while not being so willing to accept women as they are. Many times the only fault of a woman is living her life the best she can and sees fit and there you hear a bunch of insecure men, bemoaning how women, feminism and whatnot destroyed their gentle souls.

        1. Adrian

          Could you or kathy give an example of what you mean by kissing up then? I think this is where myself and maybe others are confused. Because when Kathy uses inferior men, what are we to assume?

          Emerald and Stacy comment on men only wanting women who they are better than, so it seems that to many people, equals in a relationship is what??? A woman who is better looking but dumber??? A man who is richer, smarter, better body, handsome, but not better looking than her???

          If so, then I can see that to kiss up to those type of people, you would have to down play who you are, but as Karmic, Chance and Karl keep saying, you are just dating the wrong type of people. I respect many of Emeralds post through the years on this blog, but I think now she is in a despairing place in her dating life, so her thoughts are much darker and pessimistic.  

          Lau_ra, would you or any woman give me an example of this so I can understand what you and the other woman are talking about: “Its not being polite and kind that women call “kissing up” . Its the thing that men want to be accepted as they are while not being so willing to accept women as they are.”

        2. EmeraldDust

          Adrian @  . . . .I respect many of Emeralds post through the years on this blog, but I think now she is in a despairing place in her dating life, so her thoughts are much darker and pessimistic.  
          Thank you Adrian.

        3. Lau_ra

          Yes, for me”kissing up” is mostly downplaying who I am in order to enter or keep a relationship. I don’t have a problem of dating such people anymore, as I can recognize the pattern, but in general such model is very wide spread in the country I live, as women here outnumber men and tend to be better quality in terms of looks, education (not neccesarily formal, but general intelectual curiosity), having an active lifestyle and etc., so basically they either must take such “inferior” man, or remain single for long periods of time, until they meet someone somewhat equal. 

    2. 14.2

      I don’t see where Karl stated you were “probably a lesser human being.”

      1. 14.2.1

        And who the hell are you people to decide who is inferior?

        1. starthrower68

          Joe, would you not consider an overweight, middle-age single female parent inferior?

        2. Joe

          Is Kathy an overweight, middle-age single female parent?

        3. starthrower68

          While I get the spirit behind the remark, we unfortunately have all looked at someone a d judged them inferior.

  15. 15

    Give em what theydont say they dont want and theyre not satisfied. Give em what they say they want and they’re not satisfied. No matter what u give them they file for 2\3 all divorces. Tempts me to think that women are insatiable…

  16. 16

    Thanks Karl, you just proved Emerald Dust’s point in your response to Kathy

  17. 17

    Wait! So Twinkle after the guy called you first and initiating 5 dates you actually think it’s wrong that you called him to ask once? How is that setting up bad habits? I’m not attack or accusing I’m genuinely curious. What bad habit, the habit of you guys never talking or going out unless he does the work? The habit of you always knowing how he feels or where he stands about you with out him knowing unless you allow him to?

    1. 17.1

      Erps. I can understand your incredulousness, Adrian, when u put it that way it does sound odd. The thing is, I’m not his girlfriend yet, although he’s said he wants me to be. So if I’m understanding Evan’s advice correctly, I believe he thinks it’s better to let men take the lead in the early days. A little unfair to men, though, right? I can see that POV too.

      1. 17.1.1

        Twinkle – I’m a little puzzled by this statement The thing is, I’m not his girlfriend yet, although he’s said he wants me to be.:  
        Do you want to be his girlfriend ?  If he wants you to be his GF, and you want to be his GF what’s the issue ?  If you don’t want to be his GF, why did not getting a 6th date bum you out ?
        Just wondering.

        1. twinkle

          Emerald Dust, yes I want to be his GF. But he just says stuff like “I want you to be my GF”, instead of actually asking me.
          And yes, when I thought we weren’t having a 6th date, I was so upset, until one night I didn’t sleep a wink at all! 🙁 Which is why I gave up playing it cool and couldn’t help checking if things were ok between us; the last time we had spoken I’d been uncharacterisitically whiny and needy with him as I was stressed about something, and I’d worried he had lost interest because of that.
          To tie it back to the main topic of having equal partners, I actually don’t mind being rejected by a guy if he decides we’re not ‘equal’, or incompatible etc. But I’d hate to lose a guy because of something avoidable like behaving badly.

        2. EmeraldDust

          Twinkle, How did you respond when he made the statement “I want you to be my girlfriend” ? 
          Just because he didn’t phrase it as a question, the fact that he made it as a declarative statement of what he wanted, needed a response from you ?
          Did you affirm that you wanted the same ?  Did you remain silent ?
          Depending on your response, he may have felt that you rejected him as a boyfriend.
          BTW, when he said that, he WAS taking the lead ?  Did you follow up on his lead or did you leave him guessing ?

        3. Adrian

          Twinkle I have to agree with Emerald about this guy (unless there are things that you still haven’t told us like his body language when he made the statement or his tone. Does he still actively talk to other women online and go out on dates. And if he does, is it because he wants to be cautious before just focusing all his heart on you or is he looking for someone better?) I know how much you hate SMV, but I have to ask are you and this man on the same “mating value” level or is yours higher? Even the most confident man get insecure when he is trying to win a attractive woman or at least a woman more attractive than he is.

          Emerald and I briefly spoke on this in 2.2 & 2.2.1, basically your guy may be using passive/aggressive tactics. Telling you what he wants but posing it in a way that it’s an open ended question so “you” twinkle have to feel in the answer.

          Him: “I want you to be my girlfriend…”

          Twinkle: “I want that too!”

          He also want to know you want him, so enthusiasm is important to.

          Him: “I want you to be my girlfriend…”

          Twinkle: “Yes I want that to.” …Good enthusiasm

          Twinkle: “Ok” or silence waiting for him to say more… Bad entusiasm

          I’m only assuming this because he probably is like most men more beta in dating toward attractive (or more attractive than him) women, vs the highly sought after alpha -when it comes to dating- who confidently leads. The average guy, just doesn’t have that level of confidence in the face of possible rejection, embarrassment, and getting hurt, when it’s a woman that he wants. So this guy may be just playing you or he may genuinely like you but be too afraid of your answer if he asks directly. 

          Twinkle, I honestly don’t know, because in 18.1 you told me that you show that you are into him, but remember that to the average guy if the woman is attractive his confidence goes down. He isn’t sure if she is going out with him because she is really into him or if she is just bored and has nothing better to do or if she is only kinda likes him, but will leave him for someone better. So he plays it safe. So maybe your interest in him is too subtle for him to read, many of us men suffer from that in dating, or maybe he just isn’t really into you and wants to keep you around until someone better comes along.

        4. twinkle

          Emerald Dust & Adrian: Wow thanks for the advice, I didn’t think of that! Both time that he said stuff like that, I kept quiet, hoping that he’d ask me outright to be his GF, but he didn’t. I was slightly hurt that he hadn’t asked yet.

          Adrian, I’m not sure if he’s still talking to other women (romantically) or dating other women, nor do I know if he’s just stringing me along while waiting for better options. I’m guessing ‘no’ to these questions, because any day I choose to meet up seems ok with him, and he seems to take the dates seriously–like when I told him I may not be able to meet this weekend as I haven’t been feeling well, he seemed very disappointed and quickly arranged to meet early in the coming wk.

          I don’t think my ‘mating value’ is higher than his, and I’m not extremely attractive, lol. He seems like a confident man but I guess I’m reasonably attractive and he may want to ‘test the waters’ before asking outright. Thanks so much to you and Emerald Dust! I will show more enthusiasm and not just keep quiet the next time if he brings it up again. 🙂

          I’ve started reading WHD, and I see Evan emphasises the need that men have for some positive feedback on dates, to do things that show we’re “into” them. Strange how I never realised that principle applied in this situation. Thank you, Emerald Dust, Adrian and Evan! 🙂

        5. twinkle

          Just want to add, unfortunately he’s at an age where many men have already married, and he’s an attractive charismatic guy, which may imply that he’s really fussy about choosing a partner 🙁 That’s one reason why I’ve been a bit wary; I’ve seen Evan himself say such men may not be the best bets for relationships. But he’s treating me well so far and I’m giving it a shot. 🙂

  18. 18

    Aah! An acolyte of Evan’s… Well he is the professional dater (Over 300 dates is amazing to me) and dating coach (10 years or almost 10 years of experience) not me, so I will yield to his wisdom. A lot of things Evan says is hard for me to swallow, but I was once almost a PUA guy until I read something of Evan’s that made me understand why I, as a man, did what I did and felt the way I felt.

    I’m looking for love like most people on this site, so if trying something that I don’t’ agree with or understand, will help me get that, then I can swallow my pride for a while… And since you just said only in the early dates, it’s makes since. Yes it’s unfair, but who said dating is fair, besides, I to can understand wanting to make sure a person is really into you and not just using you for money, sex, a green card, etc… So good luck with this guy Twinkle

    1. 18.1

      Thanks Adrian! Btw although Evan says it’s better to let men lead at the start, I think he’s told women to do their part by showing their interest, warmth and receptiveness to the guy. So when u said “The habit of you always knowing how he feels or where he stands about you with out him knowing unless you allow him to?”, it’s not really true, because the woman should be doing her part to show the guy she’s interested in him too, so that he feels confident in continuing to invest his time and effort in dating her. 🙂

  19. 19
    Karmic Equation

     Kathy, Emerald, Lau_ra,
    If you feel the need to “kiss up” to “inferior” men, then by your behavior you have made yourselves lower than those you consider inferior. And it also reeks of desperation. You want a second date so badly that you would “kiss up” to someone you consider inferior? Are you even aware of how that sounds?If you feel they’re inferior, then you should be RELIEVED they don’t ask you out on second date so that you don’t “hurt” them. 

    If you judge men in relation to yourself as “inferior” or “superior”, then it’s no wonder you’re struggling to find people who LIKE you enough to go on second dates or have relationships with you. Judgmental people are easy to sniff out, particularly judgmental women by men looking for “the one”. If they’re only looking to get laid, if you’re attractive enough, they’re still going to ask you out on a second date, even if you show judgmental tendencies or even if you try to hide those tendencies. But if they’re looking for something serious, and only consider you marginally attractive and you show those judgmental tendencies or smell of desperation or of being inauthentic, there won’t be second dates, EXCEPT with those looking only to get laid. And I know none of you are looking for just that.

    So you really, really, really need to learn to be GENUINELY nice people. Learn to be GENUINELY sweet. Learn to be GENUINELY appreciative of men. If you can’t see yourself doing that, you need to stop dating. You’re just setting yourself up for failure and more disappointment and bitterness.

    MOST men are flawed. And most men have more flaws than most women, I’ll give you that. But MOST men are not “fatally” flawed, i.e., have some relationship-deal-breaking flaws, e.g., abusive, cheats, disrespectful, emotionally unavailable. But MOST women DO have relationship-deal-breaking flaws; most women ARE insecure, controlling, and after a certain age, are embittered to boot. No woman wants to be with an insecure, controlling, embittered man. So unless you can eradicate those qualities in yourself, you’re fighting a lost battle.

    And yes, there are PLENTY of insecure, controlling, embittered men. But you’re not yearning to date them are you? And if you found yourself dating one of those, you wouldn’t be able to run away fast enough, would you?

    More women have flaws that break relationships than men do.

    Men have more ANNOYING flaws than women have. But if you’re really chill, they won’t bother you. Men can overlook almost all our annoying flaws.

    Have some self-awareness. No one is perfect. But not all flaws are created equal. 

    1. 19.1

       Kathy, Emerald, Lau_ra,
      If you feel the need to “kiss up” to “inferior” men, then by your behavior you have made yourselves lower than those you consider inferior.

      KE –  I didn’t make that statement, someone else did, I don’t agree with it, so please leave me out of your little rant.

    2. 19.2

      KE said – So you really, really, really need to learn to be GENUINELY nice people. Learn to be GENUINELY sweet.
      Excellent advice KE, you should try it yourself sometime.

    3. 19.3

      I agree with everything you just said Karmic, and I don’t see you as attacking women, but as attacking a subject, the subject of people thinking others are superior or inferior to them in dating.

      Karmic you are pretty good at reading and understand people so I would like your take on equality and looks, as briefly mentioned earlier by Emerald, plus you seem like one of the few people willing to admit the power it has in the dating world.

      The average looking rich guy getting the hot woman, is it a myth, is that the equality that some people want? I only ask because I have heard repeatedly on this blog how important looks are to women just as it is to men, so if that is the case, then why do some guy’s think if he can just become rich he can get a 10? But why would a 10 not choose a average salary guy who is also a 10?

    4. 19.4

      “Kissing up” a man only happened once in my life and taught me fast that a relationship is not worthy of losing myself, so the point about being desperate about getting a second date is definitely not valid. Its just my irritation about how women in the society I live in are expected to be OK with basically any man, irrespectively if he is willing to give anything back.
      Points about controlling and being insecure also don’t apply – don’t like these features in men, and don’t do that to them too. 
      I do have bitter moments though, but its usually when reading mens comments on how single women deserve that if they are not willing to date someone much older or “inferior”. And when I say “inferior” I mean someone who is different from what I find important in a partner – thats does not make a man inferior as a human being, only as a partner, and only to me – someone may find the same men very suitable.
      Actually my issue with finding people for relationships is not that I’m not nice or appreciative – my direct comments in here might give you a wrong impression.
      The thing is I don’t know how and where to meet more men with whom I share a similar “culture” with (they are not on dating sites usually). I actually met quite a bunch of awesome men in several years, but the ones I was most compatible with in terms of attitudes, values and etc. were not locals and it was just too complicated to pursue a long distance relationship.

      1. 19.4.1

        Lau_ra, where are you? If it’s in a different country maybe you should try searching on the web for activity meet up groups in that country and start from there, but I think online would give you the widest range of possiblities

  20. 20

    Wow KE talk about being judgmental. Most women have relationship breaking flaws!?!  Of course this doesn’t apply to you?  
    SSince you seem to be an expert on all things having to do with men/women and relationships what is the exact age that women become embittered? 

    1. 20.1

      I’ll take that one – 31.
      And we all know this one.

      1. 20.1.1

        Cause we all know women over 31 are expired, amirite?

        1. Joek

          LOL…thanks for understanding the sarcasm/humor I intended (but didn’t indicate)!
          Though I was really going for how it often seems that as 30 approaches, women (those so inclined) seem to get apprehensive about not being married/engaged. Or at least that’s the stereotype (which I was trying to poke fun at!)
          Anyway, thanks for understanding the joke I was going for… 🙂

    2. 20.2
      Karmic Equation

      According to my many male friends…If they divorce or aren’t married by their early 40’s. That’s when women start exhibiting bitterness.Nope, I don’t have deal-breaking flaws. I never had them due to a difficult childhood. I was self-aware from the age of 8.Are you arguing that most women aren’t insecure? Most aren’t controlling? Most aren’t embittered, particularly if they weren’t the ones who initiated their divorce or conversely were forced to initiate because of straying husbands? (Not that I blame them for feeling bitter. But that bitterness doesn’t help them attract new men.)I should have added “needy” to the list. Most women aren’t needy? Like if their bf’s—or even guy they’re just dating regularly—don’t answer her texts practically immediately, they don’t get upset or question their guy?You can deny all you want. But if you’re in a relationship and you’re not happy, look to what you can adapt within yourself first before trying to “make” your man change. And if the flaw he exhibits is that egregious (depending on your own individual definition of egregious), then you should walk away.But most letters to Evan are from women who don’t want to walk away, which means that either the flaw she’s describing in her relationship (or man) is not really a deal-breaker for her, or she lacks the strength or courage to walk away from the deal-breakingly flawed guy or flawed relationship. 

      If you can’t find a man to suit you, change your criteria. If you find a man who suits you, but he doesn’t want a relationship with you, first figure out if it’s a character flaw with him (emotionally-unavailable) or a lifestyle choice (not commitment-oriented). If it’s a character flaw, you had bad luck, try again. Some things you just don’t know until you’ve known a man for a while. But if it’s a lifestyle choice? Then you didn’t qualify him properly. Do a better job with the next guy. And if it’s you, then fix whatever it is in yourself that needs fixing. Hopefully, the guy who broke it off with you is open to telling you why he broke up with you, so that you can address the issue.

      Women have the power to be in happy relationships. Some of it is luck (being at the right place at the right time). Some of it is qualifying/evaluating the guy properly–well within a woman’s control. But most of it is becoming the kind of woman most men want to have a relationship with and with whom being in a relationship is easy–both are within a woman’s control. Except for luck, all the rest takes work. But most women aren’t willing to work on their own characters, behaviors, or habits. “I’m too set in my ways.” — Too set in GOOD ways is good. Set in bad ways (insecure, controlling, needy, unhealthy lifestyle habits that make you physically less attractive, etc.) — not good.

      The whole idea of changing for the better is not to get a man. You’re not selling out. But if you change for the better, it ensures that YOU, the woman, has the maximum amount of dating options to choose from. If you’re the kind of woman MOST men want to date, you have the option of dating—and choosing—MOST men, good, bad, indifferent. You get to pick. But if you have characteristics and behaviors most men shy away from, your dating pool gets limited only to those who can deal with them…And men who LIKE insecure, needy, or controlling women aren’t usually good men to have relationships with.

      1. 20.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        When I cut and pasted from my document to here, I lost the paragraph breaks in the first paragraph. Anywhere you don’t see a space between punctuation and the next sentence is where a paragraph break was in my original doc.

      2. 20.2.2

        I have to give you credit Karmic.  I know that doing things I want to (and should) do has felt like selling out so thank you for saying that.  It’s no doubt a knee-jerk reaction of being a reformed approval junkie.  On the one hand, I may never completely eliminate that negative chatter, but I can retrain my brain, if you will to greatly quiet it.

  21. 21

    Well I don’t necessarily agree with everything KE #19 said, but I do agree that one shouldn’t think of some guys (esp not guys we date!) as “inferior”. Maybe u think your SMV is higher–fair enough–but that doesn’t make the guy inferior.

  22. 22

    But isn’t that exactly what SMV does?  By definition, you’re judging something/someone as “inferior” because you don’t prefer it to the other option(s).  SMV labels people as being high value or low value.  We have to find low value inferior to high value to call it low value.

    1. 22.1

      I loathe the term SMV because I think there are lots of nuances in what you find attractive and who you fine attractive and everyone is different. Now talking about “inferiors” No one is inferior as a human being, we can know that and still upset if people we see as “beneath us” dare ask us out. I know its happened to me, it bruises the ego. If men I am not attracted to think they have a chance, maybe I’m not as great as I think I am. I think its natural to react this way. If you realize that sometimes people will reach out on a limb and hope someone will say yes, it will quell your indignation about those “beneath” you thinking they can be with you.

      1. 22.1.1

        I want to clarify that I’m sure there are good and bad folks both with “high SMV” as there is in any subset of humanity one cares to use.  I am sure that there are those who will think, “oh, she’s just criticizing it because she’s not high SMV”.  No not exactly, as I’m sure the highly sought-after female has her share of struggles and challenges as do the rest of us, and if not, I’ll pray for her because she will.  I dismiss it because I have perspective; of the challenges and struggles I’ve had in life, my lack of SMV would be very low to non-existent of my list of concerns.  I’m sure it works fabulously for those who buy into it and God bless ’em.  I come from common folk and I’m not sorry for it.

      2. 22.1.2

        I think there’s definitely some truth to this but it’s also a bit overstated and I think it applies far more to women than to men. Afterall, men are still the approachers, which can get tiring. If I’m out at a bar and I get approached by a woman, I’m genuinely flattered even if I’m not that interested in her or she’s not my type. On the other hand, if a woman is repeatedly being approached by men she doesn’t find attractive, then I can understand how this might breed some resentment. Also, a distinction needs to be made between a lack of attraction and chemistry and someone who’s clearly overreaching based on physical appearance. When I was dating online I received messages from some women whom I didn’t respond to due to a lack of attraction, but they weren’t “objectively” unattractive, and it certainly didn’t “bruise my ego” that they messaged me.

        1. Gabri'el

          I completely agree with Juilia, when it comes down to it, it’s a ego thing, I’m approached often in real life by women but like most men I receive very few women contacting me online, barely 20 every two weeks where women get contacted like 20 every 2 hours. 

          But Skaukat, has this happened to you, because it happens to me all the time and it’s more tiring than flattering. First, I agree SMV or market value, should only apply toward dating and not toward that person as a human, it’s okay to judge that a person isn’t someone whom you are attracted to, but it’s wrong to judge that is person is a inferior human being… unless they are a murder, rapist, or child molester, then I’ll judge them as being inferior all day.

          But I have found that, when you are attractive and you are fun, charming, etc, if the person you are interacting with isn’t use to receiving this type of attention from someone who is attractive or has a higher SMV, then people get attached and don’t realize that there are people who are (shocking!!!) 8’s and higher, who are smart, fun, but also a nice guy, they think you are just like that toward them. I’m sure attractive women get it a hundred times more then even the most attractive guy.

          So I’m never flattered when a woman I’m not attracted to approaches me, because this happens a lot, and I hate the look of “hurt” and disappointment when I turn them down. People always take it personal, at least online you can don’t have to reply. 

      3. 22.1.3

        Julia – I loathe the term SMV because I think there are lots of nuances in what you find attractive and who you fine attractive and everyone is different.

        I loathe the term too, and yes, there are so many nuances & variables to attraction, that it’s almost impossible to quantify.  Sometimes I WISH I had a type, so at least I wouldn’t waste the time of men who look good on paper, and then I just don’t feel it.
        I know voice & facial expression plays into it alot.  I can usually screen out someone by phone if the conversation annoys me, but until I see the living, breathing person IRL, I can’t know for sure if I’ll be attracted to them (but I can rule some out by profile/phone)
        I do know for sure that the “Duck Dynasty” look just really turns me off. I wish it didn’t, because I don’t think it makes anyone a bad relationship partner, but I just can’t get past it.    But I don’t get indignant that all these bearded men write to me online.  I have a very good GF who LOVES that look.  Maybe I should just start sending them her way 🙂
        Anyway, I don’t think I’ll ever turn someone down who reaches out to me for being a little better looking than me (unless they act like an arrogant narcissist), because you just never know.  I would say that objectively on the scale of 1-10, I’m a 6 or 7, and perhaps in my younger years a solid 7.  But both my husbands thought I was a solid 10.  So beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.  (Neither one of them was far better looking than me, we were about equally matched)
        The only thing that REALLY annoys me is the 20 and 30 something kids pestering me online.  I feel it must be some frat-boy prank, a sexual bucket list thing, or they buy that crap that all older women are just dying to have sex with a young college stud.  ICK.
        But a man 15 years older than me reaching out, if he seems nice & sweet it doesn’t bother me, and if I thought we might be compatible and attractive, (and he seemed to be healthy & active) I’d consider meeting up with him.

      4. 22.1.4

        Hi Gabri’el,
        I think you’re referring to a different problem, namely the pain and discomfort of having to reject someone you’re not interested, knowing it will inevitably hurt their feelings and bruise their ego. However, I stated in my previous response that if man or a woman (though I don’t many guys who are constantly getting approached) are consistently being approached by people they’re not interested in, then that can get tiring and even be upsetting. 
        To be honest though, the concept of leagues leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In certain circumstances it applies, for example if a morbidly obese guy in his 40s with a receding hairline approaches a fit twenty-five year old, then we can easily say that he’s deluded or loaded. Outside of those situations I don’t think it applies much. I’ve dated 8.5s and 6s, and I found myself more attracted to one of the latter than the former because of specific endearing personality traits and quirks. So you never know who you’re going to like and who’s going to like you back. When you start talking about leagues you immediately place someone on a pedestal and make them unapproachable, and fear of appraoch limits dates for almost everyone. If I appraoch a girl and she rejects me, fine. It’s part of the game. If I were to later learn that my approach ruined her day and “bruised her ego” because she felt I was “beneath her,” well as far as I’m concerned that says more about her own character than anything else.

  23. 23

    Starthrower, I don’t think that thinking someone is lower SMV is the same as considering them inferior, but I see what u mean. I don’t like saying someone is lower SMV either, but at least it’s just saying the person is of a lower ‘league’ in just one specific criteria (like saying ‘less intelligent’ or ‘lower IQ’); it just acknowledges the pragmatism in selection of partners. Saying someone is inferior seems much worse and more judgemental IMO, I wouldnt use this language on human beings, maybe to describe objects.

    1. 23.1

      No, Twinkle I agree with you and I get where you are coming from as well.  I think many of us had turned down potential dates because we just didn’t click for whatever reason but it didn’t mean we found someone to be a lesser or unworthy human being.  But we all know what the SMV is all about.  And I say that (as I’ve said before) as someone who has never had any illusions about being pursued by the “high value” male.  And I’m betting that any high SMV person is going to go out of his way to even be a platonic friend as he would view me as someone not worthy of any time or attention.  Does that bother me? Not even a little.  It’s not useful or productive to ruminate on why someone has no interest in us.  

      1. 23.1.1

        Not going out of his way to be my friend, I should say.

    2. 23.2

      Twinkle – I don’t think of anyone as really being “inferior” or “superior”.  We all have different strengths & skills and complementary weaknesses and strengths is a nice combination to have.  I really hate the term SMV and even the 1 – 10, because to me, it really smack of snobby judgmentalism.  I have stated that sentiment on this board many times.  I usually only like to use the 1-10 scale to describe how attracted I FEEL to someone, and that has nothing to do with that person’s level of attractiveness.  (which is fairly subjective)  
      You might have seen KE’s statement berating me for “kissing up” to “inferior men”.  Just for the record I NEVER said that, and I don’t feel that way at all.  So dont’ believe that post.
      I think the SMV scores that are given, are really just sneaky code for “inferior” and “superior” by people PRETENDING that they aren’t being judgemental, but really they are.

      1. 23.2.1

        “We all have different strengths & skills and complementary weaknesses and strengths is a nice combination to have.  I really hate the term SMV and even the 1 – 10, because to me, it really smack of snobby judgmentalism.  I have stated that sentiment on this board many times.  I usually only like to use the 1-10 scale to describe how attracted I FEEL to someone, and that has nothing to do with that person’s level of attractiveness.  (which is fairly subjective)
        This is a good comment, and you touched on something that I’ve been wanting to address.  I don’t blame you for disliking the term “SMV”, the 1-10 scale, “leagues” and what-not.  Not only is it judgmental (not to mention, immature), but it is myopic because it lacks the necessary granularity to capture all of the traits that can make someone an attractive partner.  
        Now, with that said, do “leagues” exist?  Absolutely.  However, there are leagues for each different type of trait that a partner can bring to the table.  For example, someone can fall into the following leagues (according to a potential match’s assessment) based on a subset of partner traits: 

        8 in intelligence
        5 in humor
        6 in flexibility/patience
        7 in financial stability
        7 in physical attractiveness
        5 in confidence
        8 in loyalty
        7 in honesty
        6 in common interests
        8 in common goals

        You get the idea.  The list can go on-and-on.  Now, each potential match would then assess this person based on the weights that the potential match applies to all possible partner traits.  This is where a lot of variability in mate preferences will come into play.  An additional source of variability comes from the fact that when each potential match rates the partner traits of the person at-hand, he/she is being completely subjective in assigning these ratings, which can often be attributed to the fact that you can further stratify partner traits into sub-traits (e.g., characteristics that make a person physically attractive, intelligent, etc.).  So, when you say that you rate a person on a scale of 1-10 based on how you feel, I believe it is a result of the subconscious exercise that I described above (or maybe “second-nature” is a better way of describing it).  Everyone does this with each other in the dating market, and it’s all about match-ups.

        1. EmeraldDust

          Chance said
          ” So, when you say that you rate a person on a scale of 1-10 based on how you feel, I believe it is a result of the subconscious exercise that I described above (or maybe “second-nature” is a better way of describing it).  Everyone does this with each other in the dating market, and it’s all about match-ups.”
          Yes, it probably is mash up of several factors.  I just recently met a guy through some dating app that FB just randomly created for me.  I call it my “accidental date” because I got a message from FB that said so and so from AYI sent you a message.  I had NO IDEA what AYI was, but I have so many likes, events, etc. through FB, that I clicked, and found myself on AYI.  Well anyway, this “accidental” meeting through AYI, was with this guy who was really, very nice looking.  But the conversational chemistry just wasn’t there.  I felt snobby thinking it, but he didn’t seem very bright.  But he liked Karaoke, and he was actually very good (and I’m not, but I still enjoy it).  So he was a fun Karaoke partner, very easy to look at, but he didn’t seem very bright, and he didn’t seem very confident either. Also, and I feel so snobby again, but he worked at K-Mart for his job, and no, it wasn’t a post retirement job, his whole career history was a series of what for most people are stop gap jobs.  Not that I have any big deal career myself, but . . .
          So despite his good looks, and excellent Elvis impersonation skills, the forced conversation and his lack of confidence,  kept my attraction level from going to anything acceptable.
          It didn’t help that he told me TMI about his relationship history and revealed that he married a 16 year old girl when he was 25.  He said she was the first girl he ever dated, and he admitted that he married her because his self esteem was so low, that he just married the first girl who would have him.  YOWZERs.    I find it rather ironic that women are always told not to talk about their exes on dates (very good advice), but I have run into a couple of men who just volunteer TMI about their past marriages/relationships… I guess they didn’t get the memo.
          One “almost relationship”, took the opportunity of a 45 min drive to tell me all about his 2nd, 3rd & 4th wife, who was the same woman.  He prefaced it with “I have to tell you about my last wife, so you will know “what’s going on”.  After he told me this 45 miniute tale of woe, I really wished I could “un hear” it, and really didn’t see any pressing need that I need to know any of that.  
          What was really hilarious tho, was after he told me his story, he looked at me and said “You” ?  and I just said “Me, what ?”.  He asked, “Well what about you, you’re divorced, what happened ?”.  I just shrugged and said “We grew apart”.  The look on his face was priceless.  He pressed for more details.  He asked how long I had been married.  I said 23 years.  Then he said, “Oh, I guess that was your only marriage then”.  And I just shrugged and held up two fingers.  He started to ask another question, but either gave up, or we arrived at our destination or something.  I could tell he was a little annoyed that he had to pull teeth, and only got non-answers from me, but seriously, we had only been seeing each other for about a month, and I didn’t really want to hear about all his past baggage, or have him go through mine.   But while it was annoying, I must admit, I found it a little amusing also. 

      2. 23.2.2

        Emerald your story just exemplifies what I said in another post, you can have the most attractive man or woman, but if they are in a place in their life where they don’t feel confident then they will date someone of a lower physical appearance as long as the person compensates for their lack of looks with other things that they are lacking, example, education, financial stability, etc… By  the way, I’m addressing the subject of your story not your appearance.

        Starthrower68, I’ve noticed that many older guys who have dated many types of women, don’t consider themselves settling by dating a “middle-aged, over weight woman, with kids”, they just have dated enough to know that as long as “they” find her attractive, then what matters more is how she makes them feel, the better she treats them, the more he is confident in his choice to be with her.  

        Twinkle, I agree with you completely. Not being attracted to a person isn’t the same as judging them, why be with someone -even if they are the world greatest boyfriend/girlfriend- if the thought of kissing them leaves you feeling sick. You aren’t judging them,but at the same time why should you make yourself unhappy just to appear morally kind to a stranger? 

      3. 23.2.3

        Emerald Dust, I’m replying separately to your 2 replies to me, to be organised.
        Oh don’t worry I didn’t think u called anyone inferior, I saw someone else use the term. Still, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt that sometimes for the sake of brevity/laziness, people carelessly use words like that without meaning to be unkind. 
        I myself don’t like terms like SMV, and had never even heard of terms like SMV/MMV scores before discovering this blog recently. I agree it sounds judgemental and has doubtful reliability because pple have different opinions, but I don’t mind it so much. Basically if I heard another woman had remarked to someone “Twinkle (not my real name, lol) has lower SMV than me”, I’d be somewhat annoyed; but if she had said “Twinkle is inferior to me”, I’d really have to stifle the urge to throw something at her. 🙂 The 2nd one sounds really really bad.

  24. 24

    Adrian – Twinkle, I agree with you completely. Not being attracted to a person isn’t the same as judging them, why be with someone -even if they are the world greatest boyfriend/girlfriend- if the thought of kissing them leaves you feeling sick. You aren’t judging them,but at the same time why should you make yourself unhappy just to appear morally kind to a stranger? 
    Exactly !  I don’t consider men that I’m not attracted to be “inferior”, just not my type.  That’s why I hate all this SMV crap, seems to be judging people by their looks basically (and all the other things that might make someone SEXUALLY attractive, but not necessarily make them a good or bad person) 
    And despite that TOTALLY FALSE accusation that I don’t like “kissing up to ‘inferior’ men”, I do not feel that way at all.  (I NEVER said that, someone else did, but those words and/or feelings were FALSELY attributed to me) 
    I must admit, I do feel uncomfortable and awkward on some first meet & greets when I feel zip attraction, but I certainly don’t want to be unkind to the person to whom I am not feeling it.  It’s not so bad if the zip attraction is mutual.  It’s even awkward if I feel like the person has zip attraction to me, and I felt like I could have been attracted to that person, but for their dis-interest in me. But considering the other person inferior ?  Nope.  Kissing up by being polite ?  Nope. 
    But I do hate the hateful, judgemental crap that is all over the mansophere and to a large extent the media toward women of a certain age, and women of a certain weight.  I would NEVER expect someone to try and force an attraction to a woman as some sort of “equal opportunity” dating mandate, but I can’t some of the hateful stuff the media and the manosphere promote in regards to women of “low SMV”.  One example is many years ago (before the internet)  a radio station was running a “NO FAT CHICKS” campaign.  They sold “NO FAT CHICKS” t-shirts and bumper stickers.  Their DJ’s chanted that line on their show.  The most offensive were the bumper stickers dotting the landscape that read “Save the Whales, Harpoon a Fat Chick”.  During a convo, I let it be known that I found the whole “NO FAT CHICKS” campaign to be offensive, and was basically told I was just being uptight, that it was a “joke” etc.  Then they said “Why does it bother you, you are very thin ?”.  (In my younger days I was extremely skinny, borderline emaciated looking)  Sheesh, I’m not gay, but I find that “God hates Fags” protests to be despicable and a stain on humanity.  I find “Harpoon a Fat Chick” bumber stickers in the same vein.

    1. 24.1

      First off let me say that I’m not in the “misunderstanding” between you and Karmic, but I think she “wasn’t” attacking you, she only used your name because you were the first to use the word inferior in the comments section and you never said kissing you but in “12.1.1” you just said that you wouldn’t talk about your accomplishments, but only his accomplishments and things to make him happy with your future guy. It was Katy that used kissing up and inferior in the same post. It was a mistake and I hope that since you both are great contributor and veterans of this site, that you can let the misunderstanding wash itself away and under the bridge (water-under-the-bridge as they say).

      I agree with you and I think you have been pretty consistent in what you have been saying in this post, that guys who aren’t attractive or over weight belittle women for being the same. I see it also every day, I attribute it to the old fable by Aesop: “Sour grapes”. They can’t have it, and it looks bad to say it’s because I’m fat or because I stay on my mom’s coach smoking weed all day is why I can’t get a attractive woman, so they deflect the blame on the women who they consider weaker.   

      Emerald, if I remember correctly, you are a mother, so if you look at it more pragmatically or if this was happening to your child, you would recognize their behavior for what is classified as the typical bully. Bully’s pick on others for the endorphin high, the temporary power (the laughter of other, gives them approval and feeds their self-esteem), and most importantly, the effect of the people around them not focusing on their imperfections temporarily.

      Now Emerald I have a few, nature vs nurture questions for you: 1). Do you think that the average man/woman is attracted to a over-weight person and it’s just the media and social pressure that causes them to reject such people, or do you men/women naturally want a partner with a sexy body or as close as possible to being sexy?

      2) Same question just with age

      3) Same question just with children 

      There is no hidden agenda in this question, I’m just curious of your or any woman’s opinion. Since the subject is equality, what would a successful, average height, alethically build, funny and kind man gain by dating a over sized woman, or a woman woman with say 3 young kids, or if he is in his 40’s a woman who is also in her 40’s when he can get better looking women in their late 30’s flirt with him all the time?

      This was kinda my point on the courtship post (though I probably didn’t articulate my point clearly), I think all people when they like someone will treat them good, regardless if they are fat, old, or have 5 kids. It’s easy to just say look for a good person, someone who will treat you right, love you, respect you, not judge you -okay that one is harder to find (^_^)-, but there has to be some kind of definite decider, and I think it thing is physical attraction, body and face. We always talk about the people who have the physical but late the emotional and behavioral but what about the people like you mentioned Emerald who lack the physical but would treat us like gold… isn’t that what we are always taugh we should want? Then why are as you said so many people who don’t meet the media’s definition of beauty not only single but lonely?

      Evan focused on the metal and emotional parts of equality, but like I asked Karmic, I’m curious about the physical as well. And since we’ve already brought up the subjects of appearance and SMV, and yes you can flip it around and replace women for men, I’m sure many women don’t like over weight guys, though from reading the many blogs on kids and age, I don’t think women are as bias on those subjects as men are.


      1. 24.1.1

        Any wise person would not want to be with someone who they felt was settling for them, so by all means yes, “high value” men should pursue “high value” women.

        1. EmeraldDust

          An ideal coupling is when each person in the relationship feels like they have a “high value” partner, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

        2. starthrower68

          I do not disagree with that assertion.  

      2. 24.1.2

        Hi Adrian –
            Thanks for your thoughtful questions.  I’d also like to note that I did NOT use the word “inferior” in the post you referenced,  (I did say something about men having “inferiority complexes”, but I never called men “inferior” in that post, nor did I say anything about “kissing up” to inferior men which you acknowledge.  So KE’s judgemental post about me being low-down and judgemental, was not only “judgy” but it was FALSE.
        Your question:  Now Emerald I have a few, nature vs nurture questions for you: 1). Do you think that the average man/woman is attracted to a over-weight person and it’s just the media and social pressure that causes them to reject such people, or do you men/women naturally want a partner with a sexy body or as close as possible to being sexy?
        Good question, and I know I’ve addressed this before, but of course I dont’ expect anyone to have read or memorized everything I have said so here goes.
        I think this is one of those things that are a combination of nature and nurture.  Men and women are naturally attracted to physical attributes that signal fertility, and there is a certain waist hip ratio that is optimal for fertility, and it is also the most appealing ratio to most men.  I am pretty sure that I have stated elsewhere (but I’m not faulting you if you didn’t read it, or don’t remember what I said) that it is one thing to not be attracted to someone romantically, but that is no reason to socially bully ANYONE.  I am only attracted to a miniscule portion of the male population, but I don’t go around shouting “Guys under 45 SUCK !”  “Guys who sport the Duck Dynasty look are disgusting”.  I don’t start radio campaigns and buy bumper stickers to save the whales and harpoon fat dudes. 
        Yes, we all want a partner that WE find sexy, but there is NO REASON to taunt and bully people who don’t live up to YOUR perception of sexy.  (you general, not you personally)
        However, I think the media has really elevated thinness to ridiculous heights.  And adding size “zero”, to the sizes.  WTH is that, are women supposed to be so tiny now that they don’t exist ???????   What used to be considered a “medium” build on women is now now considered “fat”.  Luckily, that is the “media narrative” talking and not everyone is buying it.  I have read a few different studies, that while men have an aversion to “fat” women, that what a man considers to be “too fat” is more forgiving than how “fat” women perceive themselves.  This study involved showing men pics of women and asking them which women they thought were too fat, and then asking the women how they felt about their weight.  Many women who felt that they were “too fat” were not perceived that way by most men.  And sometimes I think women are WORSE than men when it comes to bullying other women over their looks, but I have seen men behave TERRIBLY towards overweight women.  So sure, I would never expect a man to date a woman that he finds overweight, but he should refrain from mooing at a random fat woman on the street.  I don’t care if he thinks it’s “her fault” that she’s fat.  Just because “her faults” are visible, and others people’s faults don’t manifest themselves in such an obvious physical condition, doesn’t mean that a skinny person is perfect. 
        You also asked . . .

        We always talk about the people who have the physical but late the emotional and behavioral but what about the people like you mentioned Emerald who lack the physical but would treat us like gold… isn’t that what we are always taugh we should want? Then why are as you said so many people who don’t meet the media’s definition of beauty not only single but lonely?

        Yes, I have had to regretably hurt guys who treated me like gold, because I didn’t feel that “spark” which is physical attraction.  Sometimes these guys were OK looking (some were alot less than OK, some were more than OK,  but whatever)  Actually, I hate to say this, but my parents were pretty shallow, and I think over emphasized looks.  No wonder the marriage I was a by product of was so volatile. So yeah, they had beautiful wedding photos, but not such a beautiful marriage.  They both thought they married someone great looking, but I don’t think they liked one other thing about each other.  I did absorb some other wisdom from the culture at large on the importance of “inner beauty”, and my own personal opinion is that a relationship has to have both physical attraction and emotional compatibility. No point quibbling over which is MORE important, since I think BOTH have to be present to a degree.  We might as well argue about which is more important, water or oxygen.    Nobody does anyone any favors when they marry someone because they are so “nice”, but they feel no physical attraction.  So no matter what anyone “teaches” me, I’ll only accept a relationship that has attraction and comfort, not just one or the other.  I actually did have that for about 10 years, then it slowly went downhill.  
        Also, not terribly related to what you said, but even though most people have “check lists” and “deal breakers” etc.  I think most people KNOW that they are not going to get EVERYTHING on their so called list, and when they meet someone that they feel that spark for, if that person has 4 of the 6 things on the so-called check list, they overlook the missing 2.
        I never thought I would marry someone younger than me, unemployed and going to school.  But I fell in love with an unemployed carpenter, going to school and working retail part time.  He didn’t stay underemployed for long, and we created a decent middle class life for ourselves and our son.  But even tho he was younger than who I imagined I would marry, and only employed part time, I NEVER felt like I had “settled”.  I was very happy with the pairing, I had faith that he would work hard so that we could create a good life for our family together, etc.  I never use the word “settle” to describe a “trade off” or getting something other than the spouse you had imagined you would get.  When I use the word “settle”, I mean getting into a r’ship, just for the sake of being in a r’ship.  One that is lacking in physical or emotional chemistry.  
        Also, not sure that I really agree with the concept of “equality” in a relationship.  I prefer polarity.  I think eqaulity and polarity can actually go hand in hand, but some people use “equality” to mean some sort of uniform sameness of each person in the relationship. 


        1. Adrian

          Aah, Emerald, you just can’t let the “inferior” word thing go. In comment 12.1.1 I was only saying that, that post maybe how some came to think you were in the kissing up to men camp, but in comment 12 you “DID” use the word inferior first. Now before you come to defend yourself… All I said was that you used the “WORD” first.  The context of the usage was condemning the men who say and feel that way toward women, You have never said, nor did I say you said that anyone was inferior.

          Like I said, you have been consistent in your message condemning people who think others are inferior, as your example of calling in to confront the radio host who felt that it was okay to say, “NO FAT CHICKS”. 

        2. EmeraldDust

          Adrian – Like I said, you have been consistent in your message condemning people who think others are inferior, as your example of calling in to confront the radio host who felt that it was okay to say, “NO FAT CHICKS”. 
          Actually, I didn’t call in the radio station, but a guy I was briefly involved with had friends who had the bumper stickers, t-shirts, and were constantly chanting it.  I let him know that I did not care for that behavior, even tho’ I was stick thin.  “No Fat Chicks” t-shirts are still available for sale on the internet.  But I’m sure there are some really male bashing t-shirts available as well. 

        3. Joe

          A far as sizing, there’s probably a lot of vanity sizing out there.  What used to be a sz 8 is now called a sz 6, so women can say they fit into a size 6.  When that happens, what happens to sz 2?  Since it’s now really a sz 4 that’s called a 2, actual size 2s need to have their own size, so it’s now a zero.

        4. EmeraldDust

          Joe – Yes, that’s exactly it, it is vanity sizing.  The fashion industry created this obsession with thinness and continues to push it by adding the ridiculous notion of size zero.  What’s next, are we going to change the definition of pounds to be 10 oz in stead of 16 ?  I guess that’s one way to lose pounds with dieting or exercising.

        5. Julia

          Re: woman and size. I think you are onto something here. I am by no means thin, I have been quite clear on here in the past that I am about 20lbs over weight. I am lucky that I have a good figure though, excellent hip to waist ratio and having large breasts and a but, round butt helps. I noticed when online dating men would talk about how they are interested in thin women all the time and still message me. I had full body shots so it was clear what my size and shape was (roughly an 8-10 dress) I think women and men have different definitions of thin. When I see a size 0-2 woman, I think she’s thin and anyone above that becomes average-large-obese. I think many men, when they say “thin” they mean “not fat” so being an average sized women with curves still is enticing. At least, no man I met or dated had any complaints with my body, I always got lots of compliments, etc.

  25. 25


    NO, NO,  I believe men are AWESOMEEEEEEEE!   I did NOT berate Hugh Heffner for his choices. I simply pointed out that men and women have different options and if you say that women are MORE unrealistic, I simply outlined WHY this is not so.  Nowhere in my post did I even criticize Hugh and his Bevy of beauties. I simply outlined what is.  Personally, I am not mad that Hugh is doing what he is doing because these women are always benefitting. But let us not ignore the fact that there is more pressure on women and generally speaking, women have to compromise more because of societal and natural pressures and desires. That is my only point.

    Karmic, I have absolutely no problem finding and enjoying men. It is what it is. I think they are beautiful creatures but I also wanted to outline the hypocrisies. I do agree with you though that your expectations line up with what you attract.      

    You say, ‘More women have flaws that break relationships than men do.’.  I completely disagree and that is why women are the ones who tend to initiate divorce. Most divorces are because of infidelity and because of money.  Issues with those two issues tend to break up relationships the most. Think about that.


    1. 25.1

      “But let us not ignore the fact that there is more pressure on women and generally speaking, women have to compromise more because of societal and natural pressures and desires. That is my only point.”

      I don’t know Stacy – I can’t see how this could possibly be true. Or more accurately, I don’t see how this could even be measured – the paradigms of men and women being so different, how do accurately compare who “compromises” more? (Especially since that is a subjective assessment by each person).
      Is there any info you’ve read (studies, etc) that demonstrates this, or along the lines of comparing these things?

  26. 26

    I just wanted to point out, how many rich women are like Hugh Hefner? None. A rich ugly woman is not going to attract men as a rich good looking woman.
    Women are rewarded for their beauty. Fact. Beautiful people get treated better. Fact. Google this.
    Rich men always have more options. Fact. Rich women? Nope gotta look good to get more options.

  27. 27
    Mars Larson

    This is interesting. Adrien would rather brag that his wife is a VP at Microsoft, then saying she is a bagger at the local grocery store.  But if the woman can earn all the money she needs, does her own laundry, makes her own meals, cleans her own house (or hires all those out), and has friends to hang out with, what does he bring to the table that she cannot do for herself besides sex? (You can get that just about anywhere from anyone, too). As an aside, I am always amazed at the number of men who think that is ALL they need to bring to the table.
    My point being that if both parties can and do do everything for themselves, what is the point of a permanent partner? Equality is not the order of the day, equivalency is. The best relationships happen when people find others who are good at filling in the places where they are weaker, yet still step up in their weak areas when it is necessary. One person may be good at/enjoy laundry and the other at mowing the lawn, but it doesn’t have to be gender specific and it doesn’t mean that the laundry person can’t mow the lawn sometimes.  I’ve seen men that have the “housewife” role, that take care of the kids and the house, and the wife works outside the house, and those men are plenty masculine. And they are masculine because they do what they do well, 100% effort, no slacking until what needs to be done is done. And the woman doesn’t have to worry that she will not only be shouldering her own responsibilities, but his as well. A man is a man when he is in charge of himself and holds himself accountable for his own actions. It doesn’t matter if he saves his woman from the evil diaper dragon or the scary dog on the street. Some people use the term “newfound emotions” in place of “having a spine”.

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