Do Women Still Get Attention in Online Dating Even If Their Profiles Suck?

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Hi Evan ,

I have been reading your information regarding how men have to be unique and different when contact women just because of the sheer numbers of contacts they have. But do women have to do anything extra ordinary? I have looked at a few websites, and some women seem to not really try to attract as much attention as they could. Blurry pictures, pictures of pets, the dreaded bathroom mirror picture (why do they do that), no information in the profile, the list goes on. Do they still get attention and contacts?

Jim

A young attractive woman using a webcam photo could write, “I hate you, I hate you, I hate you” as her profile essay and still receive 100 emails a week.

Dear Jim,

A young attractive woman using a webcam photo could write, “I hate you, I hate you, I hate you” as her profile essay and still receive 100 emails a week.

So yes, they still get attention and contacts.

However, your question allows me the opportunity to address something that I don’t know I’ve ever addressed before when it comes to online dating — how women sabotage their own experience by not trying harder.

Everyone knows that men’s profiles, on the whole, are even worse than women. We can debate why, but, for the most part, I think it’s ignorance. Most men simply don’t know that a profile is the equivalent of a resume — if you don’t have a good one, you’re not getting called for an interview. Especially in a competitive job market.

Women have the same ignorance about the importance of a profile, except they don’t experience the same failure as men. As a result, they have no way to learn their lesson. As long as women keep receiving a steady stream of generic emails that say, “Hey, great profile. I think we have a lot in common. Would love to learn more about you,” they’re convinced that they actually have great profiles.

They don’t.

The only reason that many attractive women get these “great profile” emails is that the men writing to them need SOMETHING to say. Unless he wants to write a “you’re hot” (or more likely, “your hot”) email, all he can say is “great profile”. Why? Because you didn’t give him anything specific with which to work.

When women ask me (and boy, do they ask me), why do all the WRONG men write to them, I always have a two part response: 1) By your standards, 95% of men are the wrong men. So don’t be too surprised if you’re not enamored with 9 out of 10 emails you receive. It makes perfect sense. 2) Your profile is likely not attracting the small percentage of “right men” out there — which is something that we can easily change.

It’s because we — men and women alike — haven’t truly figured out what makes us unique. And unique profiles not only get more responses, but they get higher quality responses in return.

Yet some women really get indignant — they poured their heart out in their profile, put a ton of effort into saying what they really feel. And when I take a look at it, 9 times out of 10, she did just that. Except Nancy pouring her heart out as a 45-year-old divorcee in Seattle sounds just like April pouring her heart out as a 35-year-old single girl in New York. The lists of adjectives, the lists of hobbies, the lists of bands and countries and books and TV shows, the clichés, the personal philosophy about life and love and honesty and trust. You’ve seen it before. It’s perfectly articulate, perfectly earnest, and perfectly generic because most woman arrive at the same conclusions.

So when every woman’s profile sounds the same, what do men have to write to?

That’s right. Your looks.

And then we wonder why the level of discourse in online flirtation is so abysmal. It’s because we — men and women alike — haven’t truly figured out what makes us unique. And unique profiles not only get more responses, but they get higher quality responses in return.

One of my favorite online dating anecdotes is of a JDate woman I courted in the summer of 2004. She had a wildly entertaining profile, which included this line: “You’re witty and intelligent and consider me fully worthy of the 5,000 gold coins and two camels that my family has offered as dowry.”

My response:

Subject: Low on camels, high on yams

In the Trobriand Islands, anyway, yams are a very popular dowry staple. That’s about all I got out of cultural anthropology from my freshman year of college, but I think it was worth my parents’ $20,000.

In any case, you’re interesting. Very interesting. And, at risk of being cheesy (I risk this a lot), there’s something behind your eyes. It could be an optic nerve or a sinus, but I’m thinking that it’s some sort of intelligence or mischief or both.

If I’m wrong, well, no yams for you.

Evan

If you don’t like the responses you’re getting, it’s incumbent upon you to change how people are reacting to your profile.

She became my girlfriend a month later.

(She dumped me a month after that, but that’s not the point of the story).

Anyway, Jim, I know I’ve hijacked your question to say something that I’ve really wanted to say for awhile, but it’s an important point. If you don’t like the responses you’re getting, it’s incumbent upon you to change how people are reacting to your profile. This is why I offer E-Cyrano profile writing (www.e-cyrano.com), where you can fill out a questionnaire, talk to a writer, and have a one-of-a-kind profile within 48 hours. And if you are really serious about maintaining creative control, I offer all my profile writing secrets to you in my audio series, Finding the One Online (www.findingtheoneonline.com) and even give you a 35-page workbook to practice until you get it right.

At the end of the day, both men and women can coast by on their looks, and never feel compelled to have to improve their profiles. If you’re attractive, you will always get attention. But unless you bring your A-game in your essays, you’re probably not going to get the intelligent, witty responses that you crave.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    starthrower68

    @ Erika,

    It is an interesting commentary, no?   See, I know I have the intelligence and the confidence.   I also have a pretty face.   I don’t have the rest of the “physicality” to go with it, and I’m honest about that in my profiles.   I never try to hide it.   As a result, I don’t date much.     I make the effort however.   I admit I struggled with being angry about it for a while, but have since grown indifferent.

  2. 22
    sayanta

    #21-

    Anger and indifference are such obstacles to finding happiness in dating (I think the latter is a form of sadness, in my case at least)- but for me, they can be nearly impossible to overcome.

    I guess the biggest problem is trying to figure out what you should be doing to attract the members of the opposite sex. For me, both online and in real life, the problem has always been that I get the ‘view’ (or when I’m out in real life, a smile, a line), but it ends up into…nothingness. My cousin (whom I look like)- has only one line in her profile and gets thousands of responses- I’ve got a great pic, a well-thought out profile (where I have a literature quote in the beginning), and it’s an empty well online (that is, in getting responses from guys who speak and can write the English language).

    ok, time for my yoga class…

  3. 23
    A-L

    RE: Starthrower’s #21
      
    Online dating isn’t necessarily easy for anyone.   Maybe it’s their weight.   Or their skin color.   Or their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).   Or their desire to have no children.   Anything that takes you outside the “norm” for your area’s dating pool is going to make it harder.
      
    When the guys talk about who they contact on online sites, I suspect it’s the 8s, 9s, and 10s (which is understandable).   So if you’re a really nice looking female and nothing else all that abnormal, online dating will be relatively easy.  And probably the same for the guys who are 9s & 10s.   Either they’ll get lots of e-mails and can choose the cream of the crop, or if they send out an e-mail they have a supremely high likelihood of getting a (good) response back.   But if you’re not in the top 10-20% looks wise then online dating is going to be work.

  4. 24
    starthrower68

    I had a lengthy discussion with my guy friend about this just this afternoon.     I felt like he couldn’t understand my experience.   I don’t know if this is because of difference in gender or if I’m applying too much logic or what.   I sent him the link to this blog because he thinks I’m not trying hard enough.   I made an effort to write a witty, interesting, and unique essay, and I even put up a full length picture with my others as I will not hide my body type.   I had to explain to him that I’m out there but I can only do so much.     Men are looks-driven creatures and I have no power to make that be different.     He says I have to keep myself out there, which I do.   I also had to explain to him that knowing it is what it is, if I spend most of my time being not really caring whether I’m getting dates or not is just how I think a lot people roll.   We have lives.   We go to work, pay our bills, raise our kids, hang out with our families and friends.  

  5. 25
    starthrower68

    @ Sayanta,

    I agree, anger and indifference aren’t helpful.   However, what I told my friend is, I don’t have the financial resources to be on several different sites on the slight chance I might meet somebody.   Many of them require you pay to even see who has e-mailed you, let alone respond to those e-mails.

    I’m not sure indifference is the right word; maybe pragmatic is more it.     I don’t want to be chained to a computer waiting for contact on a dating site.   I know what I can control with regard to a better on-line dating experience (which I have done), and what I can’t.     I believe if a man is interested and my physicality doesn’t bother him (and I’m not even fat as in “DAYUM” ala Gabriel Iglasias) I respond, am witty and charming, etc.   I’ve done what I can do.       The rest of it I can’t get emotionally involved in.

  6. 26
    A-L

    Starthrower: Do you initiate e-mail contact with guys, or do you wait for them to contact you?

    1. 26.1
      Not Jerry

      I hardly ever initiate email. You’ve gotta really impress me with your prose to get me to email first.

      I realize how unusual that is for a man.

      But I get a pretty good number of inquiries from women, because of my crazy long profile.   It’s full of tests, setting expectations. It’s sure not for everyone.

      Occasionally I get a message “what a long profile, good job!” (I got that one this week).   I respond, in a simple way. I mention something from hers if it’s interesting.     If she is interested, she can continue.

      Sometimes I get an inquiry, “too long, but I read the whole thing”.   I respond to those if I am interested.   Sometimes I just look at their profile, and they can see that I did.   Your move!

      Most profiles in OLD are incoherent. Sound stupid. Full of misspellings and grammatical errors.

      Men’s might be quite a bit worse than women’s.   The bar is not very high.

      1. 26.1.1
        Grenoble

        “Men’s might be quite a bit worse than women’s.   The bar is not very high.”

        Yeah, a quick look through OLD sites shows you how little people are willing to try. A weak effort for something that could change your life.

        It makes the serious ones look good, but probably also makes them seem like they’re trying too hard when a lot of people (mostly men, but a fair number of women) don’t even bother to read the profile. They just e-mail based on pictures alone in many cases.

        1. Not Jerry

          People just don’t have it in them. A weak effort is all they got.

          I do sales/AD writing.   I developed my OLD profile using some of those techniques.   So yeah, it might make me look good to the women it’s targeted at. The superficial ones, not so much, which is how it was designed. That was intentional.   I tweaked it over a couple years until it resonates with my target audience, since the first thing I need is to be able to carry on a conversation with her.

          Since I have been single I am often surprised at how many people are just uninteresting to talk to. They don’t have much to say, they can’t discuss current events, nothing.

          I used to read the local newspaper daily, I think that helps a lot, because you know a little about what’s going on, you have some background. The newspaper was quite different from reading a story on a website, since someone else selected what you might find interesting, and often they were things if you were looking for them online you would never have read that.   So that does help.   I don’t read the daily paper anymore, but I do blog. A lot. On several subjects.

          I have people all the time say to me “you are a really good conversationalist”   I’ve had a few women on the dating sites say to me after an initial phone call “what a great call that was,” one said how most men are so hard to get anything out of on an initial phone call.

          It’s blogging, we are all blogging here, we are the cream of the crop communication wise. If you were not articulate you would not want to blog like all the people here.   So we are all top weighted.   I read the news, I interact with people online on a number of subjects that interest me.   I am a generalist, I can discuss medicine, construction, hard sciences with people I meet, many say they were surprised I knew that much about something that specialized. But I read, I study, that’s all it is.

          We are all a good class of clientele here on EMK’s blog. Higher than most, especially on the dating sites.

          Maybe we should have an EvanMarkKatz blogger’s mixer on a weekend in Lenexa, KS.

          We might not get any dates there but I am sure the conversation would be on fire.

      2. 26.1.2
        Buck25

        I have to agree with that last observation, Grenoble; I’ve women complain about men not reading profiles, but at least a few women respond off a photo alone…seems to be the same old :just throw something up against the wall and see if it sticks” mentality.

         

        I was about to comment on Not Jerry’s post 26.1 above, and I see he’s posted in again. There are some good ideas in both posts;   the profile strategy he’s using sounds   similar   to what I’ve been experimenting with recently, and my results so far seem promising as well. It DOES take confidence and a certain attitude to take that approach, since both the length and the content fly in the face of a lot of conventional wisdom.

        In my experience, we have to know our target demographic. Not Jerry, would you tell us what age range you’re working with? I ask, because most of the “less is more” school of profile thought seems to be aimed at   a younger set (say under 40), while in my target range (55 -65),   I’ve found longer (provided it’s properly fine tuned) seems to generate more response. Anyone else with thoughts on that?

        One thing I think we men have to remember-this is a marketing problem, but we don’t have to “sell” our entire target group on the idea that we’re the perfect relationship candidate (I doubt any of us could actually do that, but in the beginning, that’s what a lot of us try to do). All our profile really has to do, is arouse their curiosity enough to make at least some of them want to find out more about us (and that’s much more realistic).

        Emails seem to follow a different pattern; there, at least initially I’ve found that being concise and friendly (but not over-enthusiastic) with an observation on the profile and a related question or two seems to get the best results.

        Agree on the “top-weighted” comment; aside from some   rancorous exchanges, must of the dialogue here is quite a bit more intelligent than most profiles and emails we read on a dating site

        1. Not Jerry

          Buck25, I am indeed in an older age group, pretty much right where you are.

          I think you are right, the 20 somethings do less in the area of a profile, but ya know, when you are at the beginning like that, you are wanting to have a family, children, you have your whole life ahead of you.   Your vision is different. You have genetics to think about, who would be a good father/mother for my children?   Stuff like that.   So looking at the pictures is important at that stage.   Maybe the profile is NOT as important.

          For people like us, not like that at all. We have been there, we have a vision of past mistakes, we have a vision of what we want, and what we don’t want.   Mistakes we don’t want to repeat.

          It is marketing.   I do that, so this fit right in. It took some time to develop but I am not unhappy with the results, so far.

          Not that I get much response, I am sure I get hardly any compared to some.   But I self select out the ones I wouldn’t want to talk to.   That’s the attitude thing you mentioned. Some would want more responses. I prefer the kind I want. And I don’t agree to talk on the phone or meet very soon, I mention that in the profile. By the time I do, sometimes they are panting.   Heh.   Part of the process.

          OLD does kind of suck.   Heh. EMK will diss me for that!

          There are a lot of smart people here, so sure, the writing here is often pretty perceptive.     Top weighted.

          Even those that I disagree with, I still respect. Even Karmic!   We do love you!   We really do.   Wanna meet us all in Lenexa, KS?

  7. 27
    starthrower68

    A-L, I don’t initiate.   I thought that was an Evan rule for women but maybe I misintepreted it.

    1. 27.1
      Not Jerry

      Startthrower68,

      We’re all adults.

      You really can contact a man you want to know more about. It’s really OK. I don’t say you should definitely rush off to meet him right away, but you don’t want to miss it.

      As I often say, I am looking for “the one”. I can’t take any chance on missing her! What if I already met her?   I might not know it yet.

      What if this is for life?

  8. 28
    BeenthereDonethat

    I like A-L’s question: to any women who have dated online; do you initiate e-mail contact with guys, or do you wait for them to contact you?
      
    Personally, I have sent the first e-mail.   And while I usually get a response back, it is usually when guys have been the one to initiate contact that things continue to progress.
      
      

    1. 28.1
      Not Jerry

      Nothing wrong with sending an email. You are an adult.

  9. 29
    sayanta

    A-L, BTDT-

    Well, I’ve contacted guys, and gotten    responses saying they want to meet up asap. The weird thing is- these same guys were ones that had ‘viewed’ my profile, and didn’t even bother to ‘wink’ (not that I’m a wink fan or anything). Is it me, or does that make no sense?  Why, if they are interested (otherwise, I assume they would have ignored my e-mail, and not responded saying they want to chat and meetup asap), would they not make a move first? I don’t know…I hope I’m not going to have to do all the chasing in this online thing.

    *sigh*- this is why I always avoid online dating- see? My chill, positive vibe that I’ve (kind of, a little) cultivated in the past few months is cracking already.

    EMK- dating hundreds of people…man, how’d you DO it? You’re strong dude. I’m not. 🙁         LOL

    1. 29.1
      TheForgottenOne

      “The weird thing is- these same guys were ones that had ‘viewed’ my profile, and didn’t even bother to ‘wink’ (not that I’m a wink fan or anything). Is it me, or does that make no sense?”   That’s easy to answer. It’s because after the 100th wink or email sent with zero response it’s easy to recoil from the rejection and just not send them anymore.   It sucks getting rejected, even online.   So for confidence and ego self preservation men on online dating will be reluctant to send any kind of email because they know there’s a 90% chance of rejection.   If you knew that you faced a 90% rejection rate wouldn’t you think twice about making the first move?

    2. 29.2
      Not Jerry

      If you are a woman, you just have to expect that a certain portion of the men are going to want to meet immediately.   Some part of that wants to meet for sex immediately. Maybe all of them, I just don’t know.

      As The Forgotten One said, men send messages and get hardly any response. It is disheartening. It’s hard to get yourself to do it after a while.   I wrote about it in my profile.

      So to the adult women, I don’t think if you see something interesting you need to stand on a principle here and wait to see if he contacts you. You might be waiting a long time.

    3. 29.3
      Buck25

      Sayanta,

      Several possible answers to your “weird thing” comment above: it’s possible some of these guys might have liked your profile, but hesitated; maybe they weren’t sure what to write; maybe they didn’t have a lot of online confidence, and just procrastinated-that happens, with both genders, I suspect. As for them not having sent a wink, some women actually discourage that in their profiles-they want the man to steep right up and send an email. I’ve actually stopped sending winks on Match, because it can be construed as lacking confidence and/or real interest. If a woman’s profile gives me something to work with, I can come up with an adequate email in five minutes anyway; it’s not that difficult after enough practice (which is something any man who persists at OLD is going to get lots of!).

      TFO,   I feel your pain on that 90% rejection rate, and you can be doing a lot more right than wrong, and still get that. It used to really grate on me too, and it can be both hard on a man’s ego, and a real confidence killer…if you let it be. OLD is a different dating tool that requires its own skill set, even when you’re confident and relatively proficient in real world dating. I won’t tell you rejection doesn’t suck, because it does, real world or online. We’re men, we do most of the approaching, and we get most of the rejection, in either environment. Toughen up,   chin up, man up and keep plowing through it, learning as you go. It’s part of being a man. Look at it this way: it’s one thing if your wife, or longtime girlfriend rejects you; that hurts like hell, and it’s understandable; but why invest that much emotion in the opinion of   one woman (or a thousand women) online who you’ve never even met? All you’ve got invested in that, is an email (and maybe some unrealistic aspirations). That’s it. Is that worth being hurt over? Not to me, it’s not.

  10. 30
    sayanta

    Oh, BTDT, #28-

    I’ve heard that too- that even if a woman initiates contact, it’s usually when the guys initiate that things will actually go somewhere.

  11. 31
    A-L

    Here’s Evan’s take on women sending out the initial e-mail in online dating.
      
    Starthrower, when you find that you don’t like the caliber of guy writing to you, find the guys you’re interested in.   Once you see that you’re a reasonable fit for what he says he’s looking for, e-mail him.   Not every guy will write back, but there’s probably at least a 1 in 4 chance of him writing back (according to Cat’s OK Cupid article), and quite likely better.   So then if you send out 4 e-mails a week, you’re likely to have 1(or more)   good fish on the line no matter how many initial e-mails you get from the “wrong” guys.
      
    As far as how relationships go based on who sends the initial e-mail…I e-mailed my fiance first.   He took it from there.   He did the rest of the initiations of other e-mails, phone conversations, dates, becoming exclusive, proposing, the whole nine yards.   So don’t knock it ’til you try it. 🙂
      

  12. 32
    Karl R

    sayanta said: (#29)
    “I’ve contacted guys, and gotten    responses saying they want to meet up asap. The weird thing is- these same guys were ones that had ‘viewed’ my profile, […]  Is it me, or does that make no sense?”

    It makes perfect sense to me.

    As a guy I viewed over 1,000 profiles initially and 100 per week after that. I initially wrote to several women per week, then trimmed it down to 1 or 2. I generally had about 25 women that I considered possibilities for future emails.

    If  woman was  in that list of 25, I would be thrilled to be contacted by her. But since only the top few would get contacted each week, a woman could be on that list for weeks or months before I got around to contacting her.

    If I viewed a woman’s profile without adding her to that list, it was probably because I didn’t find anything in her profile to connect with. However, if she found something in my profile that she connected with, that was just as good.

    1. 32.1
      J

      “I generally had about 25 women that I considered possibilities for future emails. If  woman was  in that list of 25, I would be thrilled to be contacted by her. But since only the top few would get contacted each week, a woman could be on that list for weeks or months before I got around to contacting her.”
      Precisely the reason why I will not write to a man. Why should I put myself out there if he isn’t interested enough to immediately send me a message? If I’m not in your top few most desirable contacts, then I’m clearly not the woman you really want. I’m only interested in meeting men who do consider me worth the time and effort it takes to reach out first. I’d rather go out with a guy who is really into me than someone for whom I had  to  metaphorically raise my hand  and shout, “Pick me! Pick me!”

      1. 32.1.1
        Andre

        “Precisely the reason why I will not write to a woman. Why should I put myself out there if she isn’t interested enough to immediately send me a message? If I’m not in your top few most desirable contacts, then I’m clearly not the woman you really want. I’m only interested in meeting women who do consider me worth the time and effort it takes to reach out first. I’d rather go out with a gal who is really into me than someone for whom I had to metaphorically raise my hand and shout, “Pick me! Pick me!””
        Now tell me, how does that feel? Women that contact men are a billion times more likely to get a better response than the other way around, even if he isn’t interested, because men don’t feel entitled to the attention and value the fact she reached out. Even the best quality men online get treated at best like a significantly bellow average quality woman and the ones who don’t look like Brad Pitt and have a good job and charming personality, they are practically sub-human creatures. Think about that.

        1. W

          I think one of the reasons women might feel this way is the likelihood that many men (if not most) will respond to a woman who reached out to him even if he’s not interested simply due to the possibility of sex. I read somewhere earlier that a large proportion of  men don’t ever consider any woman a waste of time if there is a possibility of a sexual encounter. I know there are exceptions but I do believe this is probably how some of these courtship behaviors evolved in the first place. Obviously this tactic doesn’t preclude it from happening even if women wait to be approached but I guess in theory they hope if a guy is willing to put some effort and risk possibility of rejection he’s at least somewhat interested in her for more than sex (?)

  13. 33
    evileddy

    Why should men put in any effort into the first message if the women they message put even less effort into replying or their profiles?
      
    I send out 1000 emails with the exact same message and only get 3 replies.
      
    Or I can spend 5 – 10 minutes on 1000 really good emails and only get 3 replies.
      
    Same results with more time wasted right?
      
    Women only look at the pics, the man’s height, his financial worth and decide on that to reply or delete the opening email.
      
    Absolutely absurd for us men to spend much time in the first opening email when the majority of them are just chucked aside with zero reply.

    1. 33.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Hey Evil,

      You’re the problem. Not women.

      When I used to date online, I would spend 5 minutes on an email, and get 1 out of 3 writing back to me. You get 3 out of 1000.

      That tells me that either your emails aren’t very good, your profile isn’t very good, or you’re overestimating the kind of women you can get. I’m guessing it’s all 3.

      Your solution is here – if you actually want to do something different to get results, instead of complaining how much women suck.

      1. 33.1.1
        TheForgottenOne

        Hey Evan Marc Katz (EMK),
        I don’t see anywhere in Evil’s post where he said ‘how much women suck’.   What I did see was a fundamental truth about online dating for men, albeit a bit exaggerated.   Online dating is heavy stacked in favor of women and against men.   That’s not to say it is the fault of the women, because it is not.   But it does mean that regardless of thought or effort put into a email sent to a woman online the most likely outcome is that it will be deleted or rejected outright.   So it is only natural to assume that it’s pointless to put any effort into crafting a well thought email when there is a 90% chance of it getting deleted or rejected.   Why bother?

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Because you have 0% chance if you don’t write the email.

        2. TheForgottenOne

          “Because you have 0% chance if you don’t write the email.”
          And only a 10% chance of success if you do.   Not exactly optimistic odds.   So again, why bother?   That’s why I still say online dating is fantastic for women, but it sucks all round for men. It sucks for men because the odds are heavily stacked against them.   It sucks for men because they have a 90% chance of never having their email read or responded to.   And it sucks for men because women rarely take the initiative and make the first move because THEY DON’T HAVE TO!   Sorry, but that doesn’t make for very pleasant experiences for most men on online dating sites.   That’s why I quit online dating sites.   I’d rather focus my attention in the real world where the playing field is at least a little more level.

        3. Not Jerry

          TheForgottenOne

          It’s not online dating that is stacked against men, it’s everything.   But in person, you have a chance to win her over.   With electrons, that’s an order of magnitude more difficult.   You have to be more clever!   Your piercing gaze won’t work online.

          If you are at a party with a number of age appropriate women in attendance, do you score with them all?   Or is it more like 3 or 6%?

          Men are the pursuers, women are the submitters. It’s just how the world is.

          Pursuit is lots more work that sitting around waiting to be pursued, for most.   If you catch them and you are worthy, they just might submit to you. No, I don’t mean sex.

          That said, if a woman is interested there is nothing whatsoever wrong with letting that be known. Online, that is by email, usually.

          I have some women friends that I talk to often, mostly about online dating. One is so disheartened she is about to give up. It’s not so easy for them either.   You wouldn’t believe the stuff I have heard.   Well, EMK would.   He hears the same thing all the time.

          It’s no bed of roses for anyone. Is it better than before the internet, going out to a bar and saying “Hey, baby, what’s your sign? ”   I just don’t know.

  14. 34
    Denise

    #33 and #34

    Agreed, it doesn’t take a lot of time to create a unique email.      It doesn’t have to be long, a few sentences is fine–something that indicates she actually may be special out of the millions of women out there and you’d like to know about X in her profile.

    And also agreed not to bash women because they have ‘criteria’, the same can be said for men–they just look at the pictures and how big her boobs are.   Each sex has their own things that appeal to them, it’s instinctual and we can’t help it.   Reminds me of the saying:   Do you want to be right (women SHOULD look at more than a man’s height) or be happy?

    Having said all  that, I can feel the frustration in #34 and can also identify with it!   Might be good to take a break and come back with a better attitude..

    1. 34.1
      TheForgottenOne

      How about men boycotting online dating sites altogether? It’s a deceptive business that uses false hopes of finding love for luring an inordinate number of men into paying money on a monthly basis for the privilege of being ignored.   Maybe if enough men did this then some enterprising genius would figure out an online dating site for men that wasn’t so heaving stacked against them.   But I’m a realist and doubt that will happen in my life time.   So I refuse to be a sucker for the online dating sites and thus won’t play that game anymore.

      1. 34.1.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        Hey, Forgotten One: If one out of four marriages started online and they are presumably male/female marriages, how can you say with a straight face that online dating doesn’t work? Objectively, you’re wrong. Online dating doesn’t work for YOU. YOU don’t know how to do it properly. YOU have a bad profile. YOU are writing to women out of your league. YOU are writing emails that lack in wit, specificity and confidence.

        By the way, if you go to the gym and are still fat, is it the gym’s fault? Are you organizing a boycott of gyms, o’ realist? Look at all the fat people who are still running around. Evidently gyms are scams.

        1. APB

          That’s a little rough on the insight, no?   You have no proof that TFO isn’t doing things right. While it is quite possible that he is no different than the many guys out there who write up lousy messages and have bad profiles daily, it is also just as likely that he’s mass deleted just because thousands of other guys fire off thousand of other messages daily to women every day.
          Your gym comparison is off, btw.   TFO’s theoretical results in the gym aren’t due to chance…as in the free weights just not showing up that day just because someone else was occupying their time.   With many women online, if they get tired of looking at the same bunch of profiles applauding her fake mustache picture or responding to her “working hard and playing harder” or she’s not entertained because the guys aren’t living up to her wants fora   court jester (“I want a guy that can make me laugh”)…that’s an instant “unread-deleted” for most guys just because it can be.   
          I look at it this way.   Most women online are socially awkward, damaged in some way or another (I browse a lot of 18-year olds who have “been hurt a lot in the past” and…that sums it up.    Guys, go find women who are socially level and don’t hide in their parent’s basement hoping Prince Charming magically shows up to knock on the door.
          As for the 25% of marriages starting via the Internet…says who?   The study I am looking at funded by EHarmony itself (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/03/online-dating-marriage/2377961/) says 35% of “marriages start on the Internet”, but I promise not everyone is into paying $190 for a personality survey.
          I would tend to lean towards this tidbit:
            

          You are many times MORE likely to get hitched by NOT paying for it.
          “eHarmony fails at least 93.8% of the time”
          “It turns out you are  12.4  times more likely to get married this year if you  don’t  subscribe to Match.com.”
            
          I  understand  you have a business to run, but don’t hide from reality.

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          APB, your numbers are wrong and I’m surprised OkCupid put up such a nonsensical report. Then again, that was before they were bought by Match and they were just trying to get attention for themselves.

          Put it this way:

          eHarmony fails 94% of the time. I would guess that this is probably about the same rate that ALL relationships fail. Thus, I wouldn’t turn to a dating site for compatibility. I would turn to a dating site for OPPORTUNITY. And that’s what people are increasingly doing.

          Let’s say only 20% of people get married started with online dating. You’re taking that to mean that 80% don’t and that therefore “real life” is 4x “superior”. This is utter numerical nonsense. Here’s why.

          100% of people are eligible to participate in real life dating. What percent of people are actively participating in online dating. It’s lower than you think – basically because of people like you who try it, hate it and blame the dating sites instead of themselves. The churn rate (when people quit) is generally 2-3 months. In other words, with online dating, you have maybe 5% of the population accounting for 20% of the marriages. If that were the fact, would you suggest that online dating doesn’t work and that I’m hiding from reality? Nah. If anyone is hiding from reality, it’s those who believe that online dating doesn’t work – because admitting reality would be to admit that LOTS of people are having more success than you.

  15. 35
    E

    I think women get looked at even though their profile sucks but at the same time when men see that her profile either sucks, or she starts  bringing  out the hundreds of “requirements”, her stupid LONG laundry list that men must meet then yes men will look but quickly pass on her cause even with her online profile she’ back to her same huge stringent “requirements”, laundry list. A lot of women think that oh since he’s not out there in the bars, or she can’t find him when shes out and about she will go to online dating but a lot of them reluctant even in the 21st century.

    Online dating is how a lot of people that are already graduated from college and into their  professional  lives date. It also amazes me how a lot of yet college students are online which they should be dating in college. College is easy to find dates. But these young women are usually not on for “long term” relationships. A lot of the younger ladies still want the real casual dating and I don’t think that works too well online. I think online is more for people wanting serious dating and ready for serious relationships and are for the most part over the quick fling.   

    These days with online dating yet you hear a lot of women still bitch about “oh I can’t find a guy and I have to do this online dating”. On top of her whining about online dating then she think well when I go online with my profile he must meet this and this and this and this list must go on and on and can’t forget about he must under no certain  circumstances be this height even though she put a “range” height in reality she’s waiting for that “tall” guy and goes back to her ol routine of rejecting almost all guys cause she thinks since “Mr. Perfect” wasn’t out there so with her being this ultra specific, ultra  laundry  list, ultra “list” “Mr. Perfect” has to be online and she’s back to her rejecting almost all men.

    She then goes off about how she can’t meet a good man, she’s ready for a real  relationship  but she’s looking for the NON  EXISTENT  “Mr. Perfect” (that doesn’t  exist). She then get’s all pissy when she reads the online advice that she can’t be too picky, she shouldn’t just reject all the men and  completely  limit  herself  and pigeon hole herself to the point that yeah men look at her profile but once they read her profile men realize how either pissed off she comes  across (cause she’s salty about the online dating), she talks about all these specific things that he MUST meet or she’s instantly rejects him or her profile is ultra specific then men will pass her cause they are like she’s one of them too picky and all she’s going to do is constantly say no. Then it’s no wonder that she’s constantly single. Also women have to actually GO OUT with men and date. You actually get to know them better online then you would at the bars with him and her all drunk. I like bars but bars suck to meet women and men.

  16. 36
    E

    Contd… I’m not talking about free dating sites… I’m talking about the pay serious dating sites (match.com, Chemistry etc). Yes I agree that both men and women should obviously have some requirements but they can’t be so ultra specific that all she does is constantly rejects all men cause she’s looking for the non  existent “Mr. Perfect” that never exists. Also women you can’t just talk and then when it’s the lets go out she says no. Yes you do get to know each other a lot better online, talking on the phone then in the bars. Also I think a lot of at least the more serious daters that are looking for serious dating are really truthful like 97% truthful especially with the pay online dating sites. I

    1. 36.1
      Not Jerry

      E
      Pay dating sites.   If certain facts were true, I would agree with you.

      But here’s what’s really going on.   On Match.com, they have 30 million “members” for you to choose from.   OK, right? That’s a lot.   But guess what? They probably have less than 1 million actual paying members.   Those are the ones you can get a response from, but you can email all 30 million.

      So if any pay sites only included serious customers on the site, then you would be dealing with a serious group of people and the average would be much better than it is.   I would have no problem with that and I would not be yelling that they are crooks letting you email people who cannot respond. But they are actually crooks.
      The possible exception is EMK’s former employer Jdate, but I am not Jewish so I don’t really know.

      Since all those pay sites, Match, eHarmony keep all the former customers on there so you will be suitably impressed at the array of people to choose from, but it’s a lie since at least some of those former customers are DEAD, SEEING SOMEONE, MARRIED,   or otherwise NOT INTERESTED in an email from you.

      But you can’t find that out since they keep the information from you as to which of the people you see are paying and which fall in those other categories.

      They should actually remove those that are not paying, but they can’t since that would be bad for business. So they let you and other paying customers do their marketing for them, you can email all those people who cannot respond, and they hope that you will send a good enough email that the non-paying member will pull out their credit card and respond to you. And I am sure some do that and it’s all worth Match and eHarmony forwarding 490,000,000,000 emails to non-paying former customers since *some* do sign up again.

      You are emailing ghosts. That’s the problem with pay dating sites.

      Now, OKCupid and POF are both owned by Match.com now, and they made a big change to POF that makes it have much less utility than it had a week ago, unless you pay.   But it is at least not as bad as the pure pay sites.   The handwriting is on the wall over there. Match bought them to make money, after all.

      1. 36.1.1
        Buck25

        Not Jerry,

        Some (well actually, a lot) of this has come up before. Once created, a profile enjoys a sort of immortality otherwise unknown on planet earth, and  short of the owners of these sites suddenly abandoning a “greed is good!” mentality, it’s a pretty safe bet that the profiles of everyone who has ever signed up for these sites will continue to live   in a kind of immortality otherwise unknown on earth. I suppose I should be grateful that, to the extent they are any good, my pictures and scribblings will still be luring in suckers (er, I meant “customers”) long after I have shuffled off this mortal coil.

        There is one thing we can do to cut down the number of “phantoms” we waste time on. At least on Match, and POF, it’s easy to look on a profile and see when someone was last “active”, i.e.. signed in to the site. I’ve found if the last date was more than two weeks ago, that person is most likely temporarily or permanently inactive. Using that as a rule of thumb cuts down on a lot of clutter and wasted effort, in my experience.

        That still leave two problems. The first and most obvious, is emailing those who can’t reply without buying a subscription. I don’t know that there’s any way to check that on Match. On POF it used to be that non-upgraded members could reply to email, but not initiate the exchange; I don’t know if that’s still true. One wonders just how much of the “rejection” attributed to unreeled emails is due to this, but I’ll bet it’s a significant percentage.

        The last, and potentially biggest problem with these “everlasting profiles” is that it further fosters the illusion of “unlimited choice” among those new (and many not so new) to the process. Those of us who have been at this for a while are more than a little aware of the unrealistic expectations this creates; I know Evan and others here have remarked on various aspects of that, repeatedly.

        All in all I’d say that theres a real market for a dating site that can figure out how to address these problems and purge the “phantoms” while still making a profit. Let’s hope someone figures that out, sooner rather than later.

      2. 36.1.2
        Not Jerry

        Buck25, the solution is before you stop paying Match or another pay site, take your pictures and your profile down.

        Most don’t do that and that’s why the chaff is there. Because most people reasonably think when they stop paying they will stop reaping the ‘benefits” of the pay dating site.   All those emails!

        On POF anyone can email anyone as far as I can tell. But I presume Match will start interfering with that soon, the handwriting is on the wall.   They bought that to make money!

        In fact a friend created a profile last week on OKCupid and I helped her a little on the phone. I could not however email her through the site.   And she had no restrictions set. I saw the screenshots.   It said she only accepted emails from some members, but that was not how it looked.   I presume if I paid them I could email her.   Heh.   Weird.

        1. Buck25

          Not Jerry,

          I’m not certain the new ownership at POF isn’t already curtailing the free email. I recently ran into the same thing you noticed with your friend on OKCupid; almost the same message, despite the facts that the profile was completely visible, and the “To contact this user, you must:” restrictions   shown wouldn’t have applied. It’s possible that women may have filtering options we don’t have there, and can’t see (I know that exists on some sites) but I haven’t encountered that on POF before, so who knows? It does add yet another challenge to the ones we already have, doesn’t it?

  17. 37
    miskwa

    Sometimes a “bare bones” profile is intentional. I am guilty of this for reasons of safety. Nowadays in order to “see what’s out there” on a site. you have to submit some sort of profile.  I am well known in the (rather rough) small town where I live, and do  NOT want any of the men here to know I am “looking” and wind up with a major problem  on my doorstep; nor do I want to shell out serious money  for a site where there are no/very few older men that have similar values.

  18. 38
    RustyLH

    Unless he wants to write a “you’re hot” (or more likely, “your hot”) email,
      
    LOL   OK, now that’s funny…but sadly, oh so very true.   To many people don’t know how to express there self in a intelligent manner.   It is probably Hooked on Fonics that we should blame.

    1. 38.1
      Bobby Charlton

      Oh the irony.

      Try “Too many people don’t know how to express themselves in an intelligent manner.”

  19. 39
    cinnamon Girl

    I get a lot of what I think are Nigerian Romance Scammers on Chemistry dot com.   Maybe 75% of the email I get is cut and paste boring. Several I have looked up and verified as Romance Scammers (one stole facebook photos from an attractive kindly looking gay man’s facebook page).   So whenever some guy write’s “you are beautiful, I like your smile”… and not much else I assume he is after money and will never ever call me, probably does not live nearby, etc.   If he gets a little specific .. but still complements my appearance a lot, I assume he is after money not dating.

  20. 40
    Buck25

    Those of you guys whining about how “unfair ” online dating is to us men need a reality check. I’m going to give it to you more harshly than Evan has. An attractive female can simply put one picture and a minimal profile out there and get a ton of email. Even a very average women can draw more response than the very best of men. Now, let’s look at what they actually get from all those emails. It’s already been established that at least 95% of those emails (I’d suspect more like 99.9% for the hottest, or the ones who feel especially entitled) are from men they have no interest in, and are therefore useless to them, except as validation of their desirability. That validation, gentlemen, is about all  most of them are getting that we are not. What some of you are whining about is essentially that we’re having to give them more than we are getting in return. That is not the attitude of a man; it is the attitude of a spoiled, self-centered, entitled brat! Make sure you don’t give more than you get, right? How’s that working out for you in the rest of your life?

    It’s true that to women looking at us online, our feelings do not matter, and will not matter, until and unless we excite them, impress them, entertain them, or amuse them. It’s the same in real life; the internet environment just amplifies the effect, because here, we are pictures and words, easily depersonalized and dismissed without hesitation. Cold and cruel? Maybe; but isn’t that what we do with any woman we find unattractive? Do we  care how they feel about that? You might want to think about that, along with the novel (to you, apparently) concept that we cannot expect others to give us any sense of self worth that we don’t have within ourselves.  

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