Why Are There No Attractive Men in Your Area

Why Are There No Attractive Men in Your Area
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We’ve spent some time talking about sexual market value.

The conversation tends to ruffle feathers for a number of reasons but mostly because we don’t like what the data reveals – even though the data reveals something that any honest observer would be able to point out without any data.

Men find 20-year-old women most attractive.

Women think 80% of men are unattractive.

That brings us to today’s article in Quillete – one of my recent go-to reads, despite its conservative bent: Attraction Inequality and the Dating Economy.

The piece is too long by half and devolves into some evo-psych, conservative, religious bullshit by the very end. But the first part verifies what I see every day.

  • Men complain that most women find them unattractive.
  • Women complain that no men are attractive.

Yet, somehow, many of women want to deny this. It’s a bad look to reject 80% of men out of hand, so there’s always a lot of rationalization and whataboutism.

“I’ve been rejected by men, too!”

“You haven’t seen all the guys I’ve gone out with. I give a chance to all sorts of men.”

“But most men ARE unattractive. I can’t force myself to like a guy!”

No, you can’t. But if you want to know why you hear a lot of angry men, this is why:

80% of them are physically repulsive and another 80% of them aren’t smart enough and don’t make enough money, which leaves a small dating pool for women.

Maybe we can agree on this: women, in general, are objectively more attractive than men.

Maybe we can agree on this: women, in general, are objectively more attractive than men.

Either way, the above article introduces the Gini coefficent:

“The Gini coefficient is a number between zero and one that represents the degree of income inequality in any given nation or group. An egalitarian group in which each individual has the same income would have a Gini coefficient of zero, while an unequal group in which one individual had all the income and the rest had none would have a Gini coefficient close to one.”

Some enterprising data nerds have taken on the challenge of estimating Gini coefficients for the dating “economy.” Among heterosexuals, this actually means calculating two Gini coefficients: one for men, and one for women…If women all find every man equally attractive, the male dating economy will have a Gini coefficient of zero. If men all find the same one woman attractive and consider all other women unattractive, the female dating economy will have a Gini coefficient close to one.

But while the situation for women is something like an economy with some poor, some middle class, and some millionaires, the situation for men is closer to a world with a small number of super-billionaires surrounded by huge masses who possess almost nothing. According to the Hinge analyst:

On a list of 149 countries’ Gini indices provided by the CIA World Factbook, this would place the female dating economy as 75th most unequal (average—think Western Europe) and the male dating economy as the 8th most unequal (kleptocracy, apartheid, perpetual civil war—think South Africa).

Quartz reported on this finding, and also cited another article about an experiment with Tinder that claimed that that “the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men.” These studies examined “likes” and “swipes” on Hinge and Tinder, respectively, which are required if there is to be any contact (via messages) between prospective matches.

Tinder’s Gini coefficient is 0.58, meaning “it has higher inequality than 95% [of] the world’s national economies”

That sounds about right to me. Men swipe right on everyone remotely attractive, just to see who replies. Women are far more selective, swiping back on less than 30% of men and wondering where all the men are. I don’t blame them, and neither does the author:

“There are no villains in this story. Nobody can or should be blamed for his or her honest preferences, and if women collectively believe that most men are unattractive, what grounds does anyone, male or female, have to argue with them? We may pity the large majority of men who are regarded as unattractive and who have few or no romantic experiences while a small percentage of attractive men have many. Just as much, consider that we live in a monogamous culture, and so the 20 percent of men who are regarded as attractive can only be in committed relationships with at most 20 percent of women.”

And that, my friends, is how I’ve had a job for sixteen years.

My clients want to date the Top 20% and it’s my job to help them find him – and maybe even expand her search into, say, the Top 30%. 🙂

Your thoughts, below, are greatly appreciated.

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Comments:

  1. 1
    Emily, to

    Maybe the fact that women find so few men attractive is biological. Hard wired. The same way men say being attracted to young women and having trouble with monogamy is biological. So neither side can complain. Take it up with the Creator.

  2. 2
    Tim

    I honestly don’t have a problem with women only finding 20% of us attractive.

    What bothers me is the massive denial and hypocrisy.

    Women deny that looks are the #1 factor in why they accept date request from certain men while rejecting others

    Women hypocritically call men shallow for prioritizing looks when they themselves do the same just not as overtly.

    1. 2.1
      Emily, to

      Tim,
      “Women hypocritically call men shallow for prioritizing looks when they themselves do the same just not as overtly.”
      I agree with you. I finally came to the conclusion — well, a friend pointed it out — that I am just as shallow as men when it comes to looks. I’m not proud of that, but I realized that if I chat up an attractive guy, I want him to know I’m flirting with him. If I chat up a non-attractive guy, I’m trying to telegraph I’m just being friendly.

      1. 2.1.1
        Tim

        But why does it have to be shallow?

        Nothing wrong with selecting a potential mate based off looks because it takes more than looks to enter into and maintain a relationship.

        Selecting and maintaining are 2 different stages with 2 different goals.

        1. Gallilee

          I’m with Tim on this, I don’t even see the problem at all. Most attributes that people find attractive are hardly distributed democratically. Even somebody’s ‘personality’ is largely god given; being funny and intelligent and confident are arguably as randomly and unfairly divvied up as looks.

    2. 2.2
      Allen

      The only hypocrisy that bothers me about women concerning looks is makeup.

      If a man uses inaccurate pics that falsely flatter him online (10 years old, 40 lbs thinner, Photoshop, etc) and the woman gets upset or doesn’t want to date him because she isn’t attracted to how he really looks, women say she is justified. Hell, even most men will say she is justified.

      But when a women wears makeup the first time she meets a man and after a few dates he finally see’s her without makeup and decides he doesn’t want to date her anymore because he isn’t attracted to her natural face he is called shallow by women. If he gets upset and feels lied to because she misrepresented her looks he is called even worse.

      This double standard is B.S!

      Both scenarios are of people lying about their looks so why is one accepted and the other isn’t?

      1. 2.2.1
        Evan Marc Katz

        We get a lot of comments with questionable logic, Allen, but this might take the cake. Putting on nice clothes, doing your hair, wearing makeup is part of a regular maintenance routine that women use before they go out. It is completely different from lying about your age or photo.

        1. Allen

          Mr. Katz with all due respect I believe you are using a straw man fallacy. We both know there is a difference between dressing nice and putting on makeup that flatters you and putting on makeup that makes you look like a different person.

          Or perhaps it’s just a lack of understanding because you never experienced this. I and my friends have had this happen to us a few times where the woman on date 1 looked nothing like the woman on date 10 with no makeup on.

          It’s your site and your audience are women so I understand trying to defend them. However, I’m not attacking all women, nor am I attacking all women who wear makeup. But it’s disingenuous to not acknowledge that this happens and then use Ad Hominen fallacy by making statements about my comment having “questionable logic.”

          Ultimately a man is not wrong for how he feels or what he finds attractive. If he finds a women without her makeup on unattractive, then as long as he is respectful he shouldn’t be “Shallow Shamed” for dumping her over it. There are plenty of men who would date her without it.

      2. 2.2.2
        Sandra

        I do not know a single woman who was dumped after being seen without makeup.
        Sorry, but if you cannot tell the difference between theatrical and everyday makeup, you need to learn.
        However, lighting or bright sunlight can have a bigger impact on how one really looks.

        1. Allen

          And when you or your friends break things off with a guy Sandra because you all don’t find him attractive, or he is heavier and/or older than in his profile picture do you just tell him honestly, or do you make up something to nicely let him down? What if he was a nice guy or a funny guy but you just didn’t find him attractive no matter how hard you tried? Do you tell him the truth or so something not hurt his ego?

          Do you think men are any different? Do you think we would just tell women to their face that they’re unattractive without makeup?

          You don’t see me responding to every woman’s post on here when they’re saying negative things about male daters because I know there is truth in their statements but I also know that this does not apply to all men. I don’t understand why you and Mr. Katz are approaching this as if I’m making this up or if I’m some type of misogynist sexist.

          Again, many women do look totally different in an unattractive way without makeup and many guys dump them over it; not theatrical makeup but everyday makeup. I’ve done it, my friends have done it, my colleagues have all done it. And many guys out there don’t do it.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @Sandra

          I have to agree with Allen. I and all of my male friends have dumped at least one woman after we saw what they looked like sans makeup. We used some other excuse because men are chastised on a regular basis for being shallow when it comes to looks and none of us wanted to be that guy.

        3. Sandra

          @YAG,
          Out of curiosity, what could possibly have been so different? Was she unrecognizable? Acne scars, fake tan, no eyelashes?
          Would you have initially found her unattractive had she not been wearing much makeup or you just wanted to believe the smoky eyes and long lashes were real?
          Really, just curious/

        4. sylvana

          YAG,

          I think this falls under the same category as small pecker size and bad performance in bed. There’s no reason to be blunt about it. Just end things without making an extra effort to hurt someone’s feelings.

          I don’t consider this a matter of not wanting to be accused of being shallow, but rather being a decent human being.

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Sandra

          “Out of curiosity, what could possibly have been so different? Was she unrecognizable? Acne scars, fake tan, no eyelashes?”

          You may not engage in the practice, but makeup has the ability to increase a woman’s SMV by two or more. It can mean the difference between being seen an average plain Jane as being seen as desirable (e.g. a shift from 5 to 7 in SMV significantly increases the size of a woman dating pool). My girlfriend has a friend who lives close who is a radically different woman when see applies makeup. I have seen this woman in sweats and no makeup and the difference is startling, really startling. One thing I like about my girlfriend is that she is still cute sans makeup. Makeup merely enhances her natural genetics, so she applies it sparingly. The girlfriend who looks like an entirely different woman with makeup routinely comments about my girlfriend being pretty not only around me, but when around other women. Women younger than her routinely ask her what skin cream she uses as well as for the the name of her dermatologist because she does not look her age. She uses Oil of Olay and has had no “work” done.

          With that said, being plain is not my girlfriend’s friend’s main problem. Her problem is that she is plain, leads with a high level of masculine energy, and desires an alpha male. That is not a winning hand. She is having an affair with a married man who continues to lead her on about leaving his wife for her. That is a no-no in my book. A man needs to put a little distance between his ex-wife and his next serious relationship in order to get past what I refer to as “just let out of prison syndrome.” Desirable men often go absolutely crazy after they separate from their soon-to-be ex. I know that I went crazy the first year and that craziness continued at a more subdued level until I met my girlfriend.

      3. 2.2.3
        Noquay

        Allen
        With all due respect, you are comparing apples and oranges. A woman can only change so much with makeup. Her height, weight, facial shape, body shape, health status, manner of speech, lifestyle does not change. The majority of us women are looking for a LTR, not anything casual. We are looking to mesh lives with this person, not sleep with them. Most of us women cannot physically respond to someone we do not find attractive or whose values and lives just do not match ours. When anyone, male or female, lies about their weight, lifestyle, health status, this goes far beyond limited tweaking of facial features. In my age range and given how/where I live, this is the difference between someone with potential as a life partner vs someone who cannot or will not share my healthy, highly active, low consumption life. While no one expects a partner to do everything they do, you do want to be able to eat meals together, have some activities in common, live in the same way, be attracted to one another.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Noquay

          From my personal experience, lying about weight/body type is more of a female problem than a male problem on dating sites. Men lie about height, age, and status-related things. That being said, men do agree to meet women with whom they desire nothing more than easy sex; therefore, every women who meets a guy online that is step up looks and status-wise who agrees to meet in person should beware (i.e., if he is too good to be true, you are probably communicating with a man who is about to make a high-speed pass over you).

    3. 2.3
      Mike

      Tim,

      I don’t think it is all about “looks” though. It isn’t even about money or career. It often is about something else that has nothing to do with those things. You ever see a guy who doesn’t seem to have all that much “on paper” going for him yet he has no problems attracting women. Now, it may be just as shallow as “looks” in the sense that this energy that these guys have, has little to do with “character”. I bring this up anyway because I think our gender gets into problems in assuming that women feel attraction as we feel attraction, that women approach dating the way a really good-looking high-status man would approach dating. Which they do not

      1. 2.3.1
        sylvana

        Mike,

        I think you just nailed it. It often has way more to do with a man’s energy than his looks. The “bad boy” attraction shows that perfectly. Some women find them hot, but they’re often not objectively good-looking. In general, I think women are attracted to a certain energy (whichever energy it might be that they prefer) more so than looks.

    4. 2.4
      mara

      I don’t. I agree that the first factor IS attraction.
      Now the reason why women call men shallow and they are right is because while for women attraction is necessary, it is not sufficient.
      I clearly remember in high school all boys drooling over a bimbo who is as stupid as pretty.
      I would have never gone out with a handsome guy that is dumb.
      So here is the difference. In fact, it a ton of men are put off by intelligent women, and yes, there is hard data that proves what any very intelligent woman suspected for a long time.
      Here is all te difference.
      Oh and yes, we are more selective.
      Whe we re not, we get called ‘sluts’.
      When we are being selective it’s because we can bear children and it is a whole ordeal for us and we can die from childbirth. It is biologically ingrainded in women to be more selective, the whole burden of having kids and all the risks are on us.
      Also, we could get killed every time we meet .a random man, so there’s that.
      We try to see from a face if a guy looks safe, and no serial killer looks handsome, or reassuring, usually.
      I also want to note how men LOVE to complain abut a certain supposedly ‘feminine’ trait (for exemple, the uber selectiveness, or the classical aaaah women want us to read their brains, they say no, they mean yes, they cannot communicate in a straightforward manner) BUT when we behave like man (say we are not that selective = slut!, say we speak very directly and clearly= guys run terrified, ‘she isn’t feminine!’).
      lol. Men.

  3. 3
    Robyn

    If most men on Tinder leave the verbal section of their profiles blank, they are forcing women to select purely on looks…..

    Dear Men-on-Tinder,
    If you want me to select you for other attributes than your looks and the quality (or non-quality) of your photographs, ya gotta give me something to work with!

    1. 3.1
      Tim

      You probably only date men so this may be somewhat surprising to you but women do this to. In fact the better looking a woman is the more she knows that she can get away with this.

      This is a human thing not a male thing. Every complaint against certain genders in online dating I’ve found that it’s not one but both genders do them equally.

      Though I agree with you that since more men are open to dating a wider range of women than the reverse it would benefit men to take decent pictures and write decent profiles.

      1. 3.1.1
        Paula

        ‘’It would benefit men to take decent pictures and write decent profiles.’

        Yes. PSA: lose the nasty and ridiculous facial hair, cover the bad tattoos, and off the baseball caps and sunglasses. And stop writing phrases like ‘just checking this out’ and ‘swipe left if you’re into drama.’ Just for starters.

        1. sylvana

          Paula,

          hey, hey. Nothing hotter than a short beard. What is women’s obsession with baby-smooth faces? They’re men. That’s what makes them so uniquely different. 🙂

        2. Paula

          Sylvana – perhaps it’s not a thing where you live, but in my area there is a fascination men have with growing the most god-awful facial hair you can imagine. Everything from beards that are 6+ inches in length to random patches below their lip or skinny landing-strip type things. Not a good look at all.

        3. sylvana

          Paula,

          lol. I’ve seen plenty of that too. And I totally agree with you there. If it starts looking like a rats nest of pubic hair, it’s time for the trimmers to come out.

    2. 3.2
      Seth

      @Robyn
      On Tinder I find a ton of women just leaving things blank. Again because I am sure they know they are good looking and can get away with it.
      I have done my Tinder profile 2 ways.
      1) With a bio of things I do and like. With pictures of clothes on….hiking pics, pics with friends (1 of those)…etc.
      Got like 46 likes…maybe 3 matches….1 date.
      2) My second profile, I did a very limited profile….did mostly shirtless pics.
      My likes are over 70+…had a couple matches…no dates…they stop talking.

      So I am really not sure what way to go with the profile on Tinder or other dating apps…..I still hold the opinion it doesn’t really benefit guys to be on there.

  4. 4
    Olongapo

    I think that this evo-psych stuff that is now finally hitting the mainstream, is hilarious. Unfortunately, the data supports this and OLD and hook-up apps have brought it to a crisis point that can’t be ignored anymore. Women are hardwired to consolidate on that guy who is 1 to 2 points higher than them on the sexual market value scale for the good genes they can provide, and ditto for the relationship market value for a good provider. Can’t help it but……like any impulse, it can be tempered with awareness. Men are hardwired for youth and fertility in order to successfully pass their genes on and have a much broader “range of acceptance” when it comes to potential partners.

    Since I’m male, I’ll only berate the male readers here:

    1) Since men perform and women choose, then perform. The world is unfair and the sexual marketplace is absolutely brutal. The only way to gain an advantage is to not be fat, be muscular, dress well, groom well, learn how to approach women, up your work/accomplishment game, and never, ever, piss and moan about how unfair it is. This is a lot of work and will take time but it can be done. You’ll nudge yourself into a higher sexual market value category.
    2) Learn how to engage women by understanding that everything is about emotion. It’s like learning a new language but it can be done.
    3) Understand that once you change, you can never go back or get complacent. Even in a LTR.
    Women have a need for certainty and reverting back to your old, lazy, fat, self, will cause them to start looking elsewhere.
    4) Always be your own mental point of origin. Remember, you’re the prize.
    5) Never get angry at women for being women.
    6) Get off dating apps and social media and learn how to approach in real life. Learn from your rejections. Learn how to take a punch and keep going. Women DO NOT APPROACH. It’s too scary for them.

    Good luck!!!

    1. 4.1
      Tim

      Your 3rd point sounds so taxing. No person is worth denying your true self for.

      I agree with Mr. Katz on this one, you want someone who will accept you for your flaws/personality. Dressing better, taking better online pictures, writing better profile, and getting in shape are all things I can get behind you on because they are outward changes but the point of a healthy relationship is to be with someone that you feel safe and comfortable with.

      Having to always wear your mask out of fear that she will leave once seeing the real you sounds like a terrible life. But more importantly it’s very unfair to the woman, to her it would seem like while she was the same person you met and fell in love with from the start you switched personalities halfway through your relationship because no one can keep a lie going indefinitely.

      1. 4.1.1
        Olongapo

        Hah!!! Way too many Disney movies. My question is: “Why would a man ever go back to that existence once they put the effort into bettering yourself?” It’s not a mask nor is it a lie It’s a way of life. Of course, it’s hard, but the work makes you a better man. The biggest mistake men make is doing it to get women. They’ll always fail. You have to do it for yourself. Women are always there for a confident, capable man. It’s biology.

        1. Marika

          Yes, women are drawn to confident, capable men. But I disagree with your point 3 that women will necessarily ‘look elsewhere’ if you let yourself go a bit in a committed LTR. We’re not all that shallow and fickle.

    2. 4.2
      ezamuzed

      @Tim

      I agree with almost everything Olongapo said. Except maybe 6. You can do date both online and off.

      But point 3, it isn’t about wearing a mask or being fake. It is about becoming a better person and staying that better person permanently. And from there always striving to be better. It is all about self awareness and self discipline.

  5. 5
    Noone45

    Linking to race-science peddlers? Interesting. Are you going to cosign their stipulation that Black and Latinx people are genetically predisposed to violence and low iq as well? Or do you think it’s acoincidence that the main benefactors and writers at the site follow people like Richard Spencer?

    I’m sure you’ll flame me, but I’m not going to let that pass unquestioned.

    1. 5.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’m not going to flame you. I’m going to point out that your tone and argument is in very bad faith. I’m as liberal/anti-Trump as you’re going to find. Quillette questions the far left, with good reason. Your slippery slope argument is to take an article or two that you may question and thereby negate the value of the entire site, and furthermore, link it to Neo-Nazism. Sorry. I’m not having it. You can be liberal and rightfully question far-left orthodoxy. It is EXACTLY what the center-right should have done to the Tea Party before it went off the deep end and hijacked Republicans.

      1. 5.1.1
        Noone45

        ” link it to Neo-Nazism.”

        Claire Lehmann worked for The Rebel Media, a site overrun with anti-Semitic trash. She was openly interviewed by Ezra Levant, a crank who pals around Nazis. Strange considering he’s Jewish. Clarie used to write articles (and still hosts these types of articles, albeit not written by her) on “Human Biodiversity”, a topic widely considered by legitimate scientists to be little more than a modern-day redressing of Victorian “Racialism”. Then there are the likes of Toby Young and Adam Perkins who “edit” that “publication”- open racists. Clarie scrubbed the internet of her work on HBD. I wonder why if it wasn’t racist? If you are going to excuse these sorts of people and link to their work, I’m going to have some assumptions about you. If you were hanging around a lot of junkies, i could probably safely assume you might be a junkie. Is that 100% accurate all the time, no, but it’s close enough that we have this saying “Birds of a feather flock together”.

        Citing the article you linked as “science” is dubious at best. Quillette has been frequently hoaxed by trolls (they had retracted another article just recently), denounced by the scientists whose work they have used, and have comment sections overrun with typical racist trolls. None of the studies cited in the article support the conclusions drawn within. If you go to the actual studies in question, the authors do not state their data can be extrapolated in the manner that the author of quliette piece attempts to do. The authors of these studies admit their findings are contextual rather than a broad view of the world. That a data scientist wrote that article brings shame to the profession. He should have known better.

        ” I’m as liberal/anti-Trump ”

        Immaterial to the discussion. I’m an actual leftist. SJW’s are liberals, not leftists. In fact, their beliefs are the natural endpoint of liberal political philosophy ( I refer you to Zizek in this regard). They are not anti-capitalist at all for the most part. Any comments on the subject are usually as misinformed as the right-wing’s comments on political philosophy. To call them leftists is to not understand what political leftism actual is. Unless they’ve been advocating for the abolition of private property and I missed that? Most of them seem content to go stand around with signs. The only real leftists in the US are not in any positions of power or major influence. People like Noam Chomsky, Richard Wolff, Chris Hedges et al are not liberals, they are leftists. It’s a different thing.

        Either way, I’ve said what I said. I meant it, period. I have nothing more to say and will leave you to your bad science.

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          If you have nothing more to say after insinuating that I’m a stupid racist by association, then, by all means, stop posting on my website.

  6. 6
    jo

    Noone45, it’s not necessarily that the data are bad. It’s just that the data are limited, and the Quillette author extrapolates too much from them to dating in general.

    The data themselves are based on likes or swipes on Hinge and Tinder. But as someone on the other post commented, you can only tell so much from a single photo. If there were a short video clip instead, the gini coefficients for men and women would probably look much more similar, because women can be very attracted to men’s energy in motion rather than a static picture. I really agree with that comment. In real life, we get to see people in motion, and that should be the basis for estimating gini coefficients for the sexes rather than just two apps.

    The author should have carefully limited the discussion, instead of going off on philosophical tangents that just aren’t supported by the limited data collection.

    Now, if it turned out that in the broader dating world, these gini coefficients still held, THAT would lead to really interesting conclusions. Ginis are also used to predict the stability of a society. One with a huge disparity and no ‘middle class’, so to speak, tends to be unstable. But this study alone doesn’t prove it.

  7. 7
    MilkyMae

    I have a friend who went to a small college where the student body was mostly women. I asked her about the dating scene with so many women. She claimed it wasn’t that bad because many female students stop dating. When the dating scene is crappy, some women will move on. They take another class. They don’t subject themselves to hookups and rejections. It’s a weird logic but I think women jump out of the dating pool faster than men. I know women who have tried traditional online dating only to resign in disgust. Then they tried eharmony and were even more disappointed.

    If you want to use econometric theories to analyze a dating market, you should also consider a dating participation rate. The dating market is like labor market. When people feel like they can’t get a decent job, sometimes they stop looking.

  8. 8
    Ames

    Juicy topic. Women tend to be more attractive than men for two reasons: 1. Looks are paramount to men so unattractive women get weeded out of the gene pool in greater numbers. Compare how many bald women you see in a day to bald men. 2. Women are socialized to cultivate their attractiveness from middle school or younger. They’re made to feel their worth is tied to looks so this is a lifelong focus. Good news is most men seem unattractive because they don’t know how/care to put effort into being more attractive. Westerners in general prioritize comfort over attractiveness in clothing, but men especially so. There are even hinted jokes or fears about men being unmasculine or gay if he is too well coifed. Metrosexual jokes and whispers. Compare to your average European male you’ll find a little effort goes far. Dress shoes and shirts versus sneakers and character t shirt takes his look from middle school to professional. And yes, European women have an edge over Americans in the grooming dept too. So no, 80% of men are not unattractive. They just don’t present themselves well. Western guys and gals struggle with fitness, but again, women are judged even more harshly than men and have healthier BMI numbers than their male counterparts across the states. Don’t throw the future boyfriend out with the bathwater. Keep an open mind and help your partner learn your preferences, even if it’s once in awhile. Cheers!

    1. 8.1
      jo

      Ames – so true. If there is any objective difference in attractiveness between the sexes, it’s largely due to different expectations in terms of grooming and dress. You can see this difference in most couples going to restaurants or even just walking down the street. Sloppiness in either sex, even if it means comfort or rebellion, just isn’t attractive.

      A man who changes his t-shirt for a button-down shirt instantly ups his attractiveness. Add a nice jacket, and it goes up even further.

    2. 8.2
      Lynx

      Ames: “Good news is most men seem unattractive because they don’t know how/care to put effort into being more attractive. Westerners in general prioritize comfort over attractiveness in clothing, but men especially so.”

      So very true. Every time I read the statement about women finding 80% of men unattractive I think: of course they do, because most men put almost zero effort into the controllable aspects of appearance, while most women put considerable effort into them..

      Check out couples on the street on a Saturday night and it’s common to see that she’s wearing a sexy dress, heels, stylish hair, etc. He’s wearing baggy shorts, his dress tee and Nikes.

      My 20-something son is a poster child for this. He’s actually a good-looking kid: tall, with lots of thick, wavy hair, gorgeous eyes, full lips. But he slops around in dirty, torn jeans (not stylishly distressed jeans, old dirty jeans ripped through wear), tees that most often reference video games, godawful smelly shoes and socks. He won’t listen to me, of course. I keep hoping some girl will see his potential and polish him up!!

      1. 8.2.1
        jo

        Lynx, looks like we were thinking and posting the same things at the same time. 🙂

      2. 8.2.2
        Gallilee

        The data is international. There are places in the world were most women will say the men are significantly more attractive than than their hometown; the 80/20 rule still presents itself with uncanny predictability. The ok Cupid data btw is very very good as far as social science data goes. It’s a massive data pool and shows amazingly predictable statistical results. Any sociological or psychological studies can be poked with what was quite funnily referred to imo in the artivle as whataboutism.

    3. 8.3
      mara

      AMEN
      it is proven women spend an inordinate amount of time effort and money to stay healthy and beautify themselves, while I honestly have dated guys that didn’t even grasp personal hygene, and many girlfriends can attest it is NOT an exception, those disgusting guys exist and they are quite a lot.
      Men smoke more, drink more, take more drugs, eat more and more unhealthy food, don’t go to doctors when sic unless dragged by women, don’t wear sunscreen, they thing their wrinkles are sexy, they think their bellies are sexy and I could go on and on about hair etc.
      Yeah 80% of men are unattractive, and they d absolutely nothing about it but complain. Facts.

      1. 8.3.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @mara

        While there are some women who spend an inordinate time and money beautifying themselves, that assertion does not hold for all of womankind. If you want to get an unfiltered view of American women, create a fake male account on PoF and view the female photos, most of the women on that site clearly do not spend an inordinate time and money beautifying themselves. The only saving grace on that site is that women tend to color their hair.

        The reality is that men play by different rules of engagement. Men who expend too much effort on grooming risk the possibility of being seen as less masculine. That view is not only held by men, but also by a large percentage of women (a huge percentage of women in my peer-age group).

    4. 8.4
      Chris

      So the reason why there’s this huge imbalance in how much attention the average men gets on OLD versus the average women is mostly due to grooming? This is wrong. Different grooming standards would only be a very minor factor.

      1. 8.4.1
        mara

        wowwowoowowo talk about remixing everything I said.
        1/ I never said that the imbalance in attention men get while old is due yo grooming, in fact if men get more attention while old that goes to prove even MORE that women are NOT the ones being superficial and all about looks.
        2/ well chris, there are many factors involved, I described at least two major ones, you cherry picked one. Of course women are genetically hard wired to be more selective (and not on looks, on everything combined), that makes sense when you are a child bearer.
        But do not underestimate the fact that it is statistically proven that man overestimate how good they look and don’t do enough to look good (ask any doctor, dietician, plastic surgeon, wardrobe stylist, addiction specialist, psychologist etc how many men they see…).
        You do not realize this maybe but I went on dates with guys that had a nasty breath (sooooo many omg), showed up dressed like they came out from a garbage bin and with hair that really begged for a shapoo and I could go on and on.
        So yeah, the factors are many but when men say WOMEN are the superficial ones for not wanting to fuck anything that moves like most of them do I say yeah right.
        The proof that MEN are the superficial ones is ay men. Why are gay men so groomed and well dressed and go to the gym and stuff?
        Because they get judged by men.
        I rest my case

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @mara

          “The proof that MEN are the superficial ones is ay men. Why are gay men so groomed and well dressed and go to the gym and stuff?”

          No, you have it backwards. It is because they are men; therefore, they want to look like what they want to see. The same can be said for men who post shirtless photos. Why do they do it? Because that is what they want to see, and they erroneously extrapolate that desire to what women want to see. The same can be said about women who want a man who is completely manscaped. They want a man who embraces feminine grooming more than one who embraces masculine grooming. That does not excuse men who have bad hygiene. However, I blame the mothers of these men for not drilling good hygiene into them. My mother drilled hygiene into me and the Navy kicked it up a notch (poor hygiene in close quarters is a public health threat). When I live by myself, my home is cleaner than that of any woman I have dated. My current girlfriend is the first woman who came close to how well I keep my place when I live alone. My ex-wife referred to my place as a museum because it was so clean and orderly.

      2. 8.4.2
        Nissa

        Chris,
        Does grooming create this huge imbalance? No. The imbalance itself has more to do with men caring first about sex and second about relationship (in general), and with women (in general) being the inverse.

        Would it provide a critical edge for most men? Very much so. It can increase your SMV by up to 2 points. That’s the difference between a 5 and a 7. For a lot of guys, if they realized it, they could really improving their dating experience – getting more attractive women without changing their height, income or educational background. That’s worth a LOT. It also lets you experiment with being niche – beards, hipsters, tattoos (see Tattapic, Inkbox). I believe it was OK Cupid’s research (https://web.archive.org/web/20130112220943/http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-mathematics-of-beauty/) that showed that niche interest was significantly higher because what people liked, they really liked. It doesn’t matter what your style is – biker, white collar, rock star – as long as she can see an actual style.

        A lot of what women are saying is also that they are looking for visual clues about personality traits – is he tidy in general? Put thought into his outfit (which might also imply he is more likely to invest in her, as he has invested more in his clothing choices? Is he more sophisticated in his choices – button down vs sleeveless? Men are more likely to not care at all about clothing and style, with the only criteria being “does she look hot”. Other considerations tend to be secondary.

        A guy who has photos showing him as well groomed of any style, will get more ladies, than an equivalently attractive less groomed man.

        1. Marika

          Completely agree, Nissa.

          Men and women will never approach online dating the same way and there are multiple reasons for that.

          But there is one thing we can all absolutely do in order to maximise our success with online dating. We can ensure we stand out. I’m sure many women have terrible profiles, but just speaking to the guys – who are raising the issue of lack of attention online – putting up a few blurry photos or generic shots (every second guy has a gym shot, a bathroom selfie and a pic with a drunk tiger) and barely writing anything in your intro (‘ask me’) is NOT going to get you much attention, unless you are incredibly good looking with a fantastic body.

          Writing something funny, putting up multiple photos, with your friends and family, and doing things you enjoy, wearing nice clothes, will all increase your chances of more responses. If you have a nice body, show it off a bit. Also, don’t put up a photo where you’ve tried to crop our your ex (or worse, I’ve seen profiles where guys have their arm around a (likely) ex!). No one wants to be thinking of who you used to date, or assuming maybe you aren’t yet over your ex, or still have booty calls with them, etc. It’s also a good idea to check that your first pic which comes up is your best one.

          Try to get inside of the mind of the people you are trying to appeal to. You (as a man) would probably be fine with a bathroom selfie and a pic lying down in bed on a Sunday morning. For a woman, those pics say, lazy (the former) and only looking for sex (the latter). Whereas outdoorsy pics with friends and family say that you have a life, you are well liked, you are fit, happy and part of your community.

        2. Gallilee

          Marika,
          I agree with you that having a poor profile like then one you describe won’t help guys success rate. Unfortunately, neither will having the good one you describe.

          Tinder for guys is purely, purely, purely a numbers game. That’s why we don’t even bother with the initial messages any more. None of it matters.

          It’s still an amazing tool imo if you’re willing to put the time and effort in, but people get too jaded by the low success rate.

        3. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          “Writing something funny, putting up multiple photos, with your friends and family, and doing things you enjoy, wearing nice clothes, will all increase your chances of more responses.”

          I have to disagree with you on this one. Sure, there are women who want to see a man with his friends and family, but they are in the minority. Most women just want to see clear photos of the man (men who post groups photos are at the same risk as women when it comes to being overshadowed by one someone else in the photo), and it helps if those photos have references in the background that can be used to estimate a man’s true height.

          “If you have a nice body, show it off a bit.”

          On this one, I will agree, but the shot has to be tasteful. I agonized about putting up a gym photo that I originally shot for one of my daughter during the kettlebell portion of my workout (this daughter was getting into working out with kettlebells as part of her Cross Fit WODs). It was of me in shorts and a sleeveless workout shirt (not a tank top or “muscle” tee). However, I had grown tired of women asking me if I was actually athletically built, so I figured that I had nothing to lose by posting it. I never received a another question about my build after posting that photo (if anything, women were intimidated). I also never received another question about my real height either because the photo had number of things that could be used to estimate height in the background such as door openings. A normal door opening is 6’8″ (~204cm) in the United states. A standard door hinge is 3.5″ long (8.9cm). The top of the topmost hinge is at ~6’1″ (185.4cm) . The bottom the topmost hinge is at ~5’9.5″ (176.5cm) with the middle of the hinge being approximately 5’11.25″ (181cm); therefore, any guy whose head does not come up to the bottom of the hinge can be assumed to be under 5’9.5″ or shorter and those who clear the top of the hinge are at least 6’1″. These measurements are bare feet measurements; therefore, subtract 1″ for photos shot in footwear.

          As an aside, one can easily see that many male actors lie about their height by watching them walk through a door while noticing where their head is relation to the topmost hinge. These are almost all footwear shots, so one can subtract at least 1″. For example, Brad Pitt is not 5’11” in bare feet, not remotely so. He almost always wears Cuban heels (1.5 to 2″ heels) or lifts in standard mens shoes (most have a heel/sole combination of 1″).

        4. Marika

          YAG said:

          “Sure, there are women who want to see a man with his friends and family, but they are in the minority”

          How do you know??

        5. Chris

          I think profile pictures with other people are often a bad idea and should be carefully considered. They may cause confusion as to who is the subject of the profile. If they are adults of the opposite gender, people might think are an ex.

        6. Marika

          Chris

          This is easily overcome. The first one or two of your pics are of you only. Then you in a few different situations/groups. The *only* time it looks bad or like it could be an ex is if your arm is around the person.

          The guys disagreeing here are thinking about what appeals to them, not what appeals to women. You’re also not taking into consideration how important it is to stand out – particularly if you’re a guy. Because women in general get much more attention online.

          If you can stand out with your looks/body – fantastic. Otherwise, looking fun, happy, silly, friendly, involved, cool, adventurous etc will help you stand out. Bathroom & elevator selfies won’t. In my age group gym shots are also a dime a dozen and I would avoid them. Obviously in YAGs age group they are more rare, so his did help him stand out. And showed off a good body. A beach shot could do the same. I saw a guy achieve I-have-a-hot-body-and-a wonderful-personality with just a shirt off pic in Africa, clearly volunteering with kids. To him I say, well played 😉

          Disagree all you like, I’m actually trying to help here. If you think it’s a numbers game, you need numbers. You can up your numbers by *not* having a generic profile like every Dick and Henry.

        7. Yet Another Guy

          @Marika

          “Obviously in YAGs age group they are more rare, so his did help him stand out. And showed off a good body”

          Showing off my body was not the point. If I wanted to do that, I would have posted a shirtless photo. The point was to show that I was not just claiming to be fit/athletically built. It matters to women in my age group who are looking for fit/athletically-built men who take care of themselves. Women in my age group have a genuine fear of ending up being a “nurse with a purse.” It is much more difficult to remain fit when one is in one’s fifties or sixties without regular strenuous exercise than it is when one is in one’s twenties or thirties. I wanted to put that question and the “am I the height that I claim to be” question to rest because continuously asked about both attributes was maddening. Believe it or not, women ask men questions that they find offensive too. While it may to not be the same to women, asking a man about his height is the same as a man asking about a woman’s cup size. Cup size matters to a lot of men just as much as height matters to a lot of women; however, neither attribute matters when it comes to a long-term relationship. That has more to do with knowing how to be a good partner.

    5. 8.5
      Yet Another Guy

      @Ames

      “women are judged even more harshly than men and have healthier BMI numbers than their male counterparts across the states.”

      I would love to see data that supports your assertion. Are you including post-menopausal women in these figures?

      1. 8.5.1
        Paula

        I can’t supply data either but can say my everyday observations in the SF Bay Area reinforce that starting around age 45, the number of fit, polished and attractive women far outnumber the men who don’t think twice about their appearance. At my 30th high school reunion party two years ago most of the women by far had aged better than 90%+ of the men.

        1. Yet Another Guy

          @Paula

          Women tend to age slower than men up to around menopause due to the protective effects of estrogen (it is also the reason why fewer women than men experience heart attacks before they go through menopause, but that changes after menopause). However, women start to age faster than men after menopause (Google “aging” and “menopause”). This change in aging can easily be seen by viewing photos of men and women at age 50 and age 60, especially if the women do not color their hair. While both men and women will look older, most women who do not go on hormone replacement therapy will have aged at a faster rate due to estrogen decline. My girlfriend’s parents are both in their 80s. They are same age. He looked older then her in their fifties. She looks at least ten years older than him today. The same thing happened to my mother.

        2. Emily, to

          YAG,
          “This change in aging can easily be seen by viewing photos of men and women at age 50 and age 60, especially if the women do not color their hair.”
          Unless the woman is Jane Fonda, who looks phenomenal at 81 and much younger than her contemporary, Robert Redford, who is 83. I’m sure she’s had a lot of work done, but who cares? Life’s playing field has never been even and she’s taking every advantage she can.

      2. 8.5.2
        Ames

        YAG: American men lead obesity a good 11% over women. In the 2nd link you will see men over 65 are about 1.2% more obese than women until age 75+ where females are 2.2% more obese. So most of men’s lives the women are fitter and past 65 it’s head to head. It likely seems there are more heavy women as you are interested in women and don’t notice men so much, I imagine. Hope that helps.

        https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/adult-overweightobesity-rate-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

        https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db106.htm#wjriene

    6. 8.6
      Gallilee

      Ames,
      ‘Looks are paramount to men so unattractive women get weeded out of the gene pool’

      Genetics doesn’t work like that.

      It makes no sense at all for men or women to be more or less attractive, physically. Yes it could be true socio economically.

  9. 9
    DL

    I stopped dating online because I wasn’t attracted to any of the men. For me, it wasn’t that all the men were unattractive, but that I wasn’t attracted to them (even if their photos were attractive) because I didn’t know them.

    A few photos and exchanged messages were totally insufficient for me to determine if I could date someone or not, and given that I am thin, fit and somewhat attractive I was overwhelmed by messages and didn’t know how to really determine who I should meet and who I shouldn’t. I found that I really need to develop that attraction organically, from seeing how a man acts in his own environment when he doesn’t know I’m watching.

    I’ve had a crush (honestly more than a crush) on a man I know for over two years now. He’s definitely the type of man I would have overlooked online. He’s average looking, older than me and not particularly fit. He’s also the brightest, funniest and kindest person I know. He’s also taken, but that’s another issue… 🙂

    1. 9.1
      Marika

      DL

      What’s the problem with going on a date to see what happens? One date isn’t any kind of commitment. If you find some mild attraction to one guy online – surely there’s one you find marginally attractive – you meet up for a drink or two and see how you feel after chatting and in his presence. I don’t get what the big deal is.

      1. 9.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Marika

        DL’s mindset is very limiting. Finding a match is a numbers game. We may not think of it that way when we meet someone during daily activity, but it is a numbers game. The difference between meeting someone online and meeting someone “organically” is that all of the filtering occurs subconsciously (online dating requires us to get out of our comfort zone and make an effort to meet someone). We do not count the large number of people we met before we made an organic connection. I believe that that is where a lot of women and some men go wrong when dating online.

        With that said, men and women tend to give up on online dating for different reasons. Men tend to give up on online dating because the return on investment is not very high for the majority of men. The average man has to write ten or more women before one responds. It can take ten or more responders to find one with whom their is mutual interest in talking on the phone. From that point, it can take ten or more different phone calls to find a woman with whom an average man believes that the investment is not going to result in a running screaming for the door experience. This weeding process results in most men never making it to the meeting in person stage. A guy is only going to stay online for so long without success before he gives up believing that online dating is futile for all but top-tier men.

        From my experience meeting and talking to women online, most of the women who give up are not willing or are afraid to go through the weeding process. They want to meet the relationship-ready guy they want right out of the gate. They treat meet and greets as dates and wonder why desirable men pass, or worse call us “players” when we are not ready to move toward a relationship from the start. We all know that guys just want to find a woman who is fun and with whom they want to have sex. The reality is that the women who are the most successful online are not always the most beautiful (beautiful women can be royal pains the backside). Women who are fun, flirty, agreeable, and understand that men develop a bond via sex tend to have their pick on dating sites, that is, as long as they do attempt to shoot too high from their SMV. These women tend to be the women whose friends ask them the questions, “Where did you find him?” or “Does he have any friends?” They are the women who not only maximize their options, but maximize their outcomes.

        1. sylvana

          YAG,

          Men – tend to give up on online dating because the return on investment is not very high for the majority of men.

          Women – not willing to go through the weeding process.

          Aren’t those exactly the same? Why do you think they’re not willing to go through the weeding process? Yes, that would be because the return on investment is not very high for the majority of women.

        2. Yet Another Guy

          @YAG

          “Aren’t those exactly the same?”

          Actually, they are not the same thing. Since men are expected to pursue, men put a huge amount of effort into the front-end of the process. The average man with functioning gray matter has to read a ton of profiles, determine the women with whom he has a reasonable chance of receiving a reply, send messages into what appears to be a black hole, and then wait to see if there are any responses. To make matters worse, he has to go through this process on an almost continuous basis. The average non-attached man will happily meet every woman who responds because so few do. The response rate is 10% or less and there is absolutely no guarantee that the conversation will go beyond a single response.

          With women, it is about responding and actually meeting guys. Online dating is little more than fiction until two people meet in person. That is when the actual weeding occurs. Most men never get to that point because the top 80% of women reject most of the men who write. The amount of rejection that the average guy receives online is huge, which is why there is so much angst about women focusing on the top 20%. When a man is in the top 20%, his experience is not remotely close to that of an 80% man. I have witnessed it with my own eyes when comparing my response rate with those of guys my age who are online. While it went up and down during my stint online, my response rate never fell below 50%. I met my girlfriend on Match. She was intimidated by the number of messages and likes I received when I showed her what I saw when I logged into the site. Most men are doing well if they get 50 likes during their entire stint with online dating. I had hundreds of likes, so many so, that my girlfriend brought it up on a regular basis until we took down our profiles. I reached a point where I no longer had to initiate contact unless I chose to do so (my girlfriend reached out to me).

          In the end, to say that online dating is a land of haves and have-nots for men is an understatement. It is more like a land of kings and serfs with a few lower-ranking noblemen thrown in for good measure, especially here in the United States. The average American guy can be successful online, but he needs to be persistent, have extremely thick skin, and realize that the numbers are not in his favor; therefore, he needs to be prepared to write a lot of women and tone down what he desires in a woman, way down (I honestly believe it when guys say that they do better in person than online). I am not saying that things are roses for American women. They have to deal with players and total douche bags. However, if they spread their attention across the entire male online population instead of focusing on the top 20%, the top 20% could not get away with this behavior. Yes, almost all of the players and douche bags online are in the top 20%. Why? Because man cannot have that mindset unless he has a lot of options. Men with few options cannot get away with treating women like they are disposable. All one has to do to verify this assertion is look at the difference in how men treat women in the tech centers and mililtary towns versus other areas of the U.S. that do not have high male to female ratios.

        3. Marika

          Guys who get a lot of attention online, IME, are very obvious. On dates they have that BDE (hope I don’t need to explain that abbreviations and people remember it from the Areana / Pete Davidson days) and are more likely to treat women as disposable. Or certainly not put much effort in to trying to impress them. Sometimes they leave their phone on the table so you can clearly see and hear dating site notifications pop up….during the date!! Classy!!!
          I can even pick it now as an observer (I like to people watch), in their body language and demeanor. No matter how good looking the woman is.

          Now, if they aren’t looking to settle down that’s completely fine. When they are, and they still act that way – what gives? You can’t sustain a (happy) marriage with all arousal and brooding and being always at least slightly unavailable and all those things which work to hook in women in the early stages of dating. At what point, if ever, does it start to dawn on them that they may need to work on their relationship skills? If they want a relationship.

          One of my friends still doesn’t get it in his early 40s. I’ve given up even having the conversation. I think he thinks Ms perfect chemistry will turn up at his door and it will just *work* out forevermore. I put him in a different category to you, YAG. I get the appeal of dating that way post marriage and kids, and certainly if there was a massive lack of sex in your marriage. But to people who talk about *when* they get married / *when* they have kids…and their entire skill set/focus is short term.. really?

        4. Emily, to

          Marika,
          “On dates they have that BDE (hope I don’t need to explain that abbreviations and people remember it from the Areana / Pete Davidson days)”
          Surely you don’t think Pete Davidson exudes BDE. 🙂 He is so painfully nerdy. But the boy’s got something. After Ariana, he was on to Kate Beckinsale. Makes no sense to me. I guess both women like funny guys.

  10. 10
    Mary

    I have followed Evans advice for the last 3 years. I bet you I’ve been on 120 dates or more. Yesterday I had two dates. I am a very attractive woman who has her act together. I’m in very good shape and I am very responsible and a good friend. I will pretty much give any guy a chance for a date who is not blatantly obnoxious or married. The amount of incredibly low quality men is astounding. I’m not even looking for good looking, wealthy, degreed, or tall. How about a guy who has his teeth? How about a guy who isn’t an alcoholic or lays around watching TV all the time? How about a guy who’s lying about his marital status? Or a guy who is lying about the fact that he just wants easy sex? Or a guy who has a disastrous Financial and family life? I’m not exactly asking for someone on my level, but I would think after going on all these dates and following Evans advice, that statistically there would be somebody worth a damn.

  11. 11
    coyote

    Mary #10… do you mind if I ask your age and if you live in a large metropolitan area? Im 54, attractive, fit, professional, educated and financially secure. I haven’t experienced the lack of dentition but otherwise concur with your comment about underwhelming and low quality dating pool.

    1. 11.1
      Mary

      LOLOL Coyote, thank you so much! I am 47 and I live in South America (ex pat). I live in a fairly large metropolitan city that is known for its culture and many universities and well dressed people. It was not any better in DFW Texas, sadly. Thanks much for your comment. :))

  12. 12
    Jenn

    Here’s my two cents: that 80% figure of women supposedly finding that many men unattractive came from that old OkCupid poll, right? Hardly a scientific source, but okay, let’s go with it for the sake of argument.

    What that poll failed to mention is that in general, men take AWFUL photos and slap them on their profiles. This is because they know women don’t tend to place as much weight on physical appearance as they do other factors. On the flip side, women know we have to play up the physical aspect as best we can, so our photos are much more carefully constructed and thoughtful.

    If guys want more success in online dating, they should quit posting terrible photos of themselves and put some effort into their pics.

    1. 12.1
      Gallilee

      Jenn,
      We (men) are scientific about this. We create profiles with various pictures, with about me sections with varied levels of information. So,times funny, sometimes serious, high word counts, pithy and confident etc etc.

      None if not makes anyndifferemce at all.

      It’s a numbers game, 100%

      1. 12.1.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Gallilee

        Online dating is a numbers game. There is no getting around it. Any man who is not willing to face active rejection does not belong on a dating site. Women get rejected too, but it is mostly in the form of passive rejection, that is, if they do not attempt to date up. Attempting to date up is surefire way for a woman to get used on the dating sites (men who attempt to date up are ignored for the most part). If a man is too good to be true, a woman who is looking for a relationship should run the other way.

    2. 12.2
      Fromkin

      ” women know we have to play up the physical aspect as best we can, so our photos are much more carefully constructed and thoughtful.”

      Women post such terrible photos that it’s a joke: selfies distorted by being too close to the camera, weird expressions, blurry webcam captures, weird angles to disguise the weight, group photos that have you guessing whose profile it actually is, photos with sunglasses on, photos of your damn pets or of places you’ve visited, photos of some indistinct woman in the distance: the list of sins is almost endless. For God’s sake, just get someone else to take a picture of you, smiling, from several feet away.

      “men take AWFUL photos and slap them on their profiles. This is because they know women don’t tend to place as much weight on physical appearance as they do other factors.”

      No, we simply don’t pose for photos as often; that picture of me holding a fish is the best picture I’ve got.

      1. 12.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @Fromkin

        “No, we simply don’t pose for photos as often; that picture of me holding a fish is the best picture I’ve got.”

        That is a huge difference between men and women. It is easier to be able to cherry pick good photos when one has a large collection of photos from which to chose. Most men do not do group shots every time they get together. In fact, most of the men I know hate having their photo taken; therefore, they only take photos when some kind of personal milestone has been achieved (e.g., the fish photo). My girlfriend has learned that I am not into group photos or the couple “selfie” thing (it just seems so forced to me). Everywhere I turn, women are taking selfies and group photos. It should be evident to anyone who uses Facebook or Instagram as to which gender takes the most photos.

  13. 13
    Gallilee

    So, I’m interested in what a realistic solution is.

    If this evo psych view of heterosexual relationships is as perceptive as it intuitively seems, how on earth are societies going to work without coercive marriage, where 18-20 year old men and women married anybody of the opposite sex who lived down the street of a comparable socio economic background?

    The only thing that seems possible is SELF CONSCIOUS compromise, wherein men and women will NEED to be aware of these proclivities and then work out a reasonable amount of compromise. So, some men will NEED to say to themselves that if they want their years of freedom and fun, they’re not realistically going to settle down at 40 and marry a 23 year-old virgin. He could marry a 36 year old woman who still has time for a kid or two. By they I mean in general, statistically. Women will have to perhaps try to marry up, but not as FAR up as seems natural. So a 6/10 woman will aim for a 7/10 man, not a 10. The real challenge I guess will be to convince 5/10 women to accept 5-6/10 men. Perhaps this will be compromise enough.

    1. 13.1
      sylvana

      Gallilee,

      “how on earth are societies going to work without coercive marriage”

      It doesn’t matter. Most people in western nations no longer care to marry just so society can function. And the only reason it would even matter that society functions would be for ones children. On the upside, less children means much better opportunities and futures for future generations. Because right now, the outlook for future generations is not the brightest. Computers and robots are taking over everything. We won’t need people much longer.

      And even if you coerced marriage, there is no way you will ever be able to coerce western women into bearing children (any at all or more than she wants) again. Without that, there’s really no reason for coerced marriage to begin with.

      I agree that compromise is healthy. But from a woman’s point of view, what’s in it for her? She’ll likely have to work and make her own money. She’ll have to have sex with a man she really doesn’t feel all that much desire for to keep him happy. On top of that, if she does want children, she has to play the role of income earner, housewife and mother, as well as meeting her man’s sexual needs. That’s a whole lot of extra work for very little reward compared to just working and staying single.

      And I don’t say that to be mean, but to be realistic. And we’re already seeing this in the declining marriage and birth rates.

  14. 14
    Laurie Wolpert

    As a female, I would say from a looks perspective, I completely find that to be true. Rarely do I see a great looking guy. However, that’s not what is “really” attractive about men. The character of a man and the connection of a relationship can completely change that dynamic. That’s why it’s important to get offline. Smart, funny men who are kind tend to be attractive no matter what they “look” like. If men can develop the ability to hold an interesting conversation and perhaps even make some playful jokes, I believe many women would respond positively. The most interesting man in the world is not the stereotypically best looking.

    1. 14.1
      sylvana

      Laurie Wolpert,

      one would think. And it works for some. But countless stories of the “friend zone” will tell you otherwise. A smart and funny man is a smart and funny man. But 80% of the time, it won’t make him attractive to the opposite gender. Maybe intellectually. But not intimately or sexually.

      1. 14.1.1
        Laurie Wolpert

        I’m not a guy, so I don’t know for sure, obviously. But being an attractive person (as in personality) I feel is key to the “long game”. Looks fade for everyone gradually. I believe a person who has a truly attractive personality will have more friends, more possibilities, and just more joy in general. That could definitely attract a partner, well.

  15. 15
    Noquay

    YAG
    As I do not date women, I don’t know whether they’re misrepresenting their weight etc. What I can say is that the majority of men I’ve met from on line nearly all lied about height, weight, and some about socioeconomic status. Some were so different from their photos as to be unrecognizable. As to a guy a step above, this rarely occurs on line, at least in this part of the country as the high status and good lookers have an ample supply of women right near their home towns. In the West, professional level and fit older women outnumber men by a considerable margin. As someone forced to date long distance or not at all, you tend to get folk who didn’t cut it where they are from, the waifs and strays as it were. It’s not that I was being rejected by desirable men, it was, like Evans’ article, there were very few that were attractive or compatible in any way. This is the situation for most women in my area, especially if you’re higher status yourself. Tis why I gave up on most online and am leaving the region.

    1. 15.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Noquay

      “As to a guy a step above, this rarely occurs on line, at least in this part of the country as the high status and good lookers have an ample supply of women right near their home towns. In the West, professional level and fit older women outnumber men by a considerable margin.”

      That is interesting. I am assuming that you are talking about the western states that are east of the West Coast because that part of the country is one of the few areas where single men outnumber single women by a considerable margin. This disparity has a considerable impact on monogamy and marriage. Men in the tech centers on the West Coast tend to be more faithful and divorce less frequently due the gender imbalance. Men in the parts of the country where women outnumber men tend to be less likely to settle into a committed relationship.

      With that said, you are correct. Desirable men who are online have little incentive to drive more than a few miles for a date. Women would always comment about the small radius on my profile limited my options. I never felt that way. I rarely had to drive more than five miles for a date.

      1. 15.1.1
        Noquay

        YAG
        I’m in the intermountain west, the Rockies. Even to meet a potential match half way, you’re talking at least an hour drive one way for most women here. That’s one of the reasons we get so mad at a dude representing himself; dating for us can be a huge financial and time investment.

        1. Mr_B

          Men outnumber women in the Rockies as well, just not as much as in the Bay area.

          Denver is called Menver for a reason.

          Even in Atlanta, in the downtown/Midtown area White College Educated Men 25-45 outnumber White College Educated Women by 10%.

    2. 15.2
      MilkyMae

      I agree. There’s way too much lying online especially for adult educated women who have worked hard to get ahead. The lies involving height, weight and photos are bad but at least you know immediately. If someone misrepresents themselves or is just not attractive, you can end everything after the first date. The insidious problem with online dating are the “kittenfish” lies about lifestyle and job. People can say anything and you can spend months of dating to verify. You can’t demand tax returns, w-2s, credit reports or college transcripts. You can’t follow them home or to work. Their automobile or clothing doesn’t tell you anything. Nearly every woman I know has had a “whoa” moment with a man they met online. A man says he works in the pharma industry, but it turns out he was laid off from a loading dock job at a pharma company. Or a man who says he’s a real estate agent but you can’t find his name on a broker’s website. Or a man who says he is self employed but he is really an Uber driver. Or a man says he lives in this nice house but he really rents a room in the house with four other tenants. Or the man who says he doesn’t smoke because he thinks vaping and weekend cigars are not smoking. Or a man who says he has a degree in finance but its from a diploma mill in Arizona and he folds shirts at jcpenny. These revelations can take a month or two to come out.

      IMO, the only way to find men of similar lifestyle and economic status(without vetting from family or friends) is through work but we all know that is very treacherous these days. Plus, many single women are working in professions that have very few men. Professions in education, counseling, health, social work, gov’t service have more single women.

      1. 15.2.1
        Yet Another Guy

        @MilkyMae

        “You can’t demand tax returns, w-2s, credit reports or college transcripts.”

        Guys lying about holding advanced degrees is so bad where I live that I kept a photo of my graduate school diploma on my cell phone.

      2. 15.2.2
        Chris

        Online dating (I’ve never tried it myself I admit) just sounds wretched for both women and men. Going by Marika’s comment above it just sound futile for men unless you are very good looking or have a very thick skin and a lot of persistence. Dating work colleagues is just a bad idea, period. And the idea that some women seem to have that a quality guy is going to just ask them out at the store or other random place is a fantasy (the ladies here are are all too grounded to believe that of course).

        You are right that leaves social groups as the best way to find romantic partners, for both women and men. Having an expansive social circle of friends and acquaintances outside of work and the internet is the way to go.

        1. Marika

          Chris

          It’s not wretched. It definitely takes a lot of persistence (like many things in life…).

          All I’m saying is, if you use it, use it well. Because it *is* wretched to put up three grainy pics in the bathroom or lying on the couch, with things like ‘ask me’ in your About Me section and then complain that no one writes or replies to you (the general you, that is, not you specifically).

        2. Nissa

          It’s not all bad. Like all investments, the more you put in, the more you get out. Knowing your audience really matters. For example, I used to put pictures of myself in “casual” clothes, thinking it presented me as easygoing. It actually resulted in contact from guys in Ed Hardy shirts, cargo shorts and flip flops. When I changed my photos to show me in pencil skirts and silk blouses, my contacts changed to men with more upscale pictures as well. Seeing it as a process where you learn as you go, helps a great deal.

          I also had more success with Match events. Men who saw me in person were much more likely to engage me. I actually enjoyed the events, so they got to see me in an environment where I was much more myself. It takes the “who pays for a date” out of the equation, which I very much prefer. It eliminates the need for emails – go directly to approach and asking for a number.

          There’s also a site in development which uses video – https://www.forbes.com/sites/joresablount/2019/08/28/this-female-founder-is-making-online-dating-easier/#6d150b2263fc

        3. ezamuzed

          @Chris

          I thought online dating was pretty great too. And I was one of those single guys on the west coast where men greatly outnumber women.

        4. Emily, to

          ezamused,
          “And I was one of those single guys on the west coast where men greatly outnumber women.”
          Please tell us where on the west coast, how old these men are and what they do for a living (not in terms of money but what kind of career they have to know about their personalities.)

        5. Yet Another Guy

          @Emily

          “Please tell us where on the west coast, how old these men are and what they do for a living (not in terms of money but what kind of career they have to know about their personalities.)”

          Most of these men are in tech centers like the SF Bay Area and Seattle. While not as bad as military and naval towns, men in the tech centers outnumber women by sizable margins.

        6. Paula

          I live in the SF bay and FWIW I’ve sworn off from dating men in tech. Yes I realize that eliminates a good portion of the dating pool but after too many meetings with these socially awkward and effeminate types I’m happy to be alone of t comes to that.

        7. Emily, to

          ezamused,
          “Yes what YAG says, Seattle. Although the men outnumber woman, the woman often complain about the men here:”
          I’ve read articles similar to this one about Seattle tech guys. The guys described aren’t my type.

        8. Yet Another Guy

          @Paula

          We do not all fit the stereotype. I am a computer scientist and engineer. However, then again, I started out in tech in the U.S. Navy. I am also from a different generation where becoming an engineer was a path out of the working class for many men. Historically, there has not been as much class bias in engineering as there has been in many other professions.

        9. ezamuzed

          @Emily, to

          “I’ve read articles similar to this one about Seattle tech guys. The guys described aren’t my type.”

          You and what seems like 90% of the woman. It is too bad, with these types of guys if they would just make a few tweaks and live more authentically they would make great boyfriends.

      3. 15.2.3
        Emily, to

        ezamused,
        “It is too bad, with these types of guys if they would just make a few tweaks and live more authentically they would make great boyfriends.”
        I’m not sure what living authentically has to do with it. I grew up with tech types on both sides of my family and work with several right now. It’s not a personality type I can relate to. Too cerebral for me.

  16. 16
    Marika

    ezamuzed

    If you did well in OLD, maybe you could give the guys who think it’s terrible some tips? It has to be more than just numbers working in your favour. I’m assuming, for instance you put in a range of pictures? Wrote funny intro’s, weren’t afraid to make the first move, etc?…

    1. 16.1
      Yet Another Guy

      @Marika

      Being successful online as a man in the U.S. is not that complex. All a guy has to do to be successful online here is to be assertive, at least 5’10” when measured in bare feet (which is a full inch taller than the average American man), attractive, well-educated, know how to write well, and not post any stupid photos or text. In essence, guys who can check a lot of boxes have it easy; therefore, online dating is fun. I honestly believe that online dating is a waste of time for most American men. Their time is better spent finding ways to meet women in the live. I have heard women say that they do better in the live too, but I think that has more to do with being able to observe a man, which allows them to use compensating factors to offset immediate physical attraction (that usually does not happen online because these guys rarely get to meeting in person). Men usually do not have factors that compensate for lack for physical attraction to a woman other than lack of options.

    2. 16.2
      ezamuzed

      @Marika

      I would defer to Dr. Robert Glover for dating tips for men, I think his advice is spot on, actionable and also respectful of woman. I also should admit that I’m lucky genetically, as I’m fairly tall and told I’m good looking which probably helps a lot.

      1. 16.2.1
        Marika

        Fair enough.

        I meant specifically as to your presentation online though. I’ve seen great profiles and terrible profiles. And I don’t even look at height. Of course it helps to be attractive, for everyone, but you can present yourself well or poorly, and it makes a big difference.

        It’s very rare, as a woman, for instance to get a funny, witty intro message. On the rare occasion we do, we look twice.

      2. 16.2.2
        Yet Another Guy

        @ezamuzed

        I found Glover’s stuff to be good, but it does not open the door on dating sites. Where Glover’s stuff comes in handy is preventing a door that has been opened from being slammed in a guy’s face. He teaches guys how to avoid going down friend-zone lane. Genetics (height, build, and attractiveness level) combined with status opens doors on dating sites. There is just no way around it unless a guy encounters an enlightened woman and even then, he risks his date being poached by a taller, more attractive man. Online dating can be a brutal place for men and women. While I did well, I am glad to be off of the dating sites. Online dating can grind down even the most successful and persistent man or woman. After all, how many first dates can one go on before one starts to get the feeling that it is not going to happen?

      3. 16.2.3
        ezamuzed

        @marika

        I suppose I had a range of pictures but never too many. Men should avoid having a bad picture or too many pictures because it seems like woman will often look for reasons to not match with you. And all they need is one reason. So having a handful of good pictures, 4 of 5 that look good but also demonstrate who you are without words is ideal.

        Some examples of good photos:

        A picture connecting a pet or animal somehow (I don’t mean pictures with an animal you just killed!) It shows you are compassionate and kind.

        A good close up photo of mostly just your head. No sunglasses or hat. It shows the real you and you are not covering anything up!

        A photo doing some physical activity. And if you are in good shape one that shows off your body in someway. This is much preferable to an obnoxious gym selfie.

        A photo dressed up in a nice suit. It shows you have style and are not a slob. The picture should be with you alone and certainly not with some girl in it or cropped out of it.

        A group photo of some sort. This shows you are social and if you are tall can showcase your height without saying it.

        As for opening messages. I would always try to send a funny message that included a question about something she said or showed in a photo. Even on Bumble I would spend more time coming up with a fun message more than anything else.

        I did a lot of improv so I would often look at one of their photos and say something like: “What is going on in photo number 3? My guess: so and so…” and then I would make up an outrageous short paragraph about the photo.

        If their profile didn’t give me anything good to work with I would have a few stock fun questions I might ask them.

        1. Marika

          As a woman, I think all of those tips are fantastic, ezaumuzed.

          I would never try to claim that online dating is easy for anyone, men especially, but there are things you can do (like your tips above) to improve your chances. It’s not all doom and gloom!

  17. 17
    Noquay

    Mr B
    Yep men do outnumber women in the intermountain west including the front range. Like I stated to YAG, the high quality ones have no need to travel outside their area. The ones willing to share commuting in a rship are those that have no options in their metro area. This may not necessarily mean that they are down and out, it could also be due to emotional or other issues.

  18. 18
    Gallilee

    I only really have experience with tinder so this advice may need to be tailored to other apps or sites.
    1. Take nothing personally. Man up. You’re not tall enough or rich enough sometimes. Get on with it, stop complaining.
    2. Quantity > quality. In terms of interaction with the app itself. Don’t waste hours and hours talking to one person. Always swipe right. When you match, then you decide if you want to talk. BREVITY IS A VIRTUE. Ask to meet quickly. They don’t want to? Move on.
    3. Your profile doesn’t matter as much as you think. Three realistic pics. A sentence or two on your profile. Again, BREVITY is a virtue. Too many pics and words looks like youre trying too hard.
    4. Conversation. Funny and to the point. Bring up meeting almost immediately. You’ll never convince somebody who doesnt want to, so don’t try.
    5. Be respectful and honest, to the person you’re talking to and yourself. For me thats means meeting; imsont want a pen pal. Honest doesn’t mean asking a stranger for casual sex. Asking for coffee is more likely to get you that anyway.
    6. Most importantly…enjoy it. Meeting new people should be fun. Even if it goes nowhere romantically you should be able to have fun meeting random strangers you would never normally have done.
    7. Even more importantly…keep swiping.

    Ps, for men obviously.

  19. 19
    Francis Mulhare

    This probably explains why US birthrates have hit a low not seen since 1937. Given that we are at the start of the Anthropocene extinction thats not a bad thing.

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