How Soon Should I Tell A Date That I’m a Virgin?

A couple on a dinner date

Dear Evan,

I am 27 and a virgin. I am sure that no one expects this of me 🙂 How do I address this issue when I meet someone “quality”?   As a man, would you expect to learn what you’re “dealing with” or would you rather not be freaked out in advance and learn it in the process? 🙂 Thanks!


I’m nineteen years old, I know there is a problem with me because I can’t seem to have a long-term relationship with a guy. The longest of my relationships lasted about three months. I’ve dated a lot, since I never find what I’m looking for, and I always end up giving up on them or if I get rejected I feel like I’m not good enough. It seems like all the “normal” guys are already taken. And I don’t know what is it that I’m doing wrong. Also, I think I’m always attracted to the same type of men (jerks).

Another thing that concerns me is that I’m a virgin, and I like older guys, so it is a bit of a problem, and I won’t get physical with a guy even if I like him a lot because I’d like to get to know that person better before sleeping with him. Nowadays it is like if guys don’t get that, they will walk away from you. I know sex is super important in order for a relationship to work out, just as chemistry is, but if I don’t get to know him first, how am I supposed to feel comfortable to do it?

Now whenever I meet someone new, as soon as I can, I’ll let him know I’m a virgin. Do you think that’s bad?? Should I wait to know them better before telling them?

Please let me know what you think!


I’ve printed these two letters back to back because…

-They’re letters from two virgins. (Yay, virgins!)

-They contain some universal themes that our older readers can definitely apply to themselves. And yes, everyone reading this is probably older than 19.

First, let’s look closer at Hely’s question:

I’ve dated a lot, since I never find what I’m looking for, and I always end up giving up on them or if I get rejected I feel like I’m not good enough. It seems like all the “normal” guys are already taken. And I don’t know what is it that I’m doing wrong. Also, I think I’m always attracted to the same type of men (jerks).

This letter did NOT have to be written by a 19-year-old. I think many of us can relate to her issues today. And I, for one, want to protect her from writing this same email to me in another twenty years.

So, in brief, I will tell you this:

If a guy isn’t treating you the way you want to be treated, leave him. It’s not your job to change him.

If a guy says he cares about you, but doesn’t back it up with his actions, leave him. It’s not your job to change him.

If a guy wants you to change for him in a fundamental way that is uncomfortable to you, leave him. It’s not his job to change you.

Which brings us to the meat of your question: should you tell him right up front that you’re a virgin?

Actually, no. I don’t think so.

But to explain my position, let me share with you the two virgin stories I have in my massive portfolio of dating tales. … This is NOT the story of how I lost my virginity (It was to a stranger from EastCarolinaUniversity), but rather, two stories of how I confronted two women who told me they were virgins early on.

One of them was back in college. We dated for a few weeks. She asked me to take her virginity. I knew I didn’t see myself with her long-term so I broke up with her. Better for her to find a guy who cared about her than to be with a guy who slept with her and left her shortly thereafter.

The next time, I was probably 30. My date was 27. She confessed to me before we ever went out that she was a virgin. She didn’t feel that she had to be married first, but wanted, at least, to be in love. I respected her honesty and thought she was very cool. We went out a couple of times and never slept together, which was probably for the best.

So what can we learn from these stories of innocence and sexlessness?

Well, for one, we learn that it can be extremely easy to take advantage of a virgin. All I had to do is act like I cared for a couple more dates and I could have de-virginized two women. It sounds awful, but there are some guys who think this is hot, the highest notch you can get on your bedpost. Sex with a virgin is next to impossible once you’re in your twenties. And who doesn’t crave an appointment with the impossible?

The problem, Hely and Milisenta, is that you can never tell which guys REALLY care about you and which ones just want to be able to say they slept with a virgin.

Which is why I’d advise you to keep your mouth shut. Yes, there are men who might be turned off by your lack of experience. But there are also men who might be turned on by it.

The best way I see you dealing with this issue is not to make it an issue at all. Go out with men, let them chase you, let them flirt with you, let them kiss you, let them touch you. You can probably go out on a good three or four dates before you actually have to have the “sex” conversation.

And at that time, just be honest. Mostly.

“I didn’t want to freak you out or make a big deal out of this, but I only want to have sex with someone that I’m in a committed relationship with. I’m really attracted to you, but until I’m sure that we’re going to be boyfriend/girlfriend, I have to keep saying no. How do you feel about that?”

From here, you can gauge if he’s serious about YOU or about SEX, and you don’t even have to “out” yourself as a virgin. If he makes it clear that he wants to be in a relationship with you, you can decide if you like him and trust him enough to be your “first”. And if so, THEN you can tell him that you’ve never had sex before.

And if I’m reading this wrong — if you NEVER plan to have sex outside marriage — this is something that can be brought up once the conversation arises organically. The same way that I might really want to have kids, but won’t start discussing baby names on the first date.

Good luck finding a guy who makes that first time worthwhile!


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  1. 1

    Being a virgin is not something to be ashamed of especially if you’re a woman. And if you are to give up your virginity, make sure that it will be worth it and not just with any “—hole”. It’s not just your virginity that you are offering but your whole being.

    1. 1.1

      I m agree

  2. 2
    mrs. vee

    Great advice again, Evan.

    I know women who got sick of their virginity and gave it away just to get it “out of the way”.

    Try to avoid that course of action, ladies. You won’t regret it.

  3. 3

    Never tell this when the time is right. I agree with lyric, Being a virgin is not something to be ashamed of especially if you’re a woman.

  4. 4

    Maybe this will make you feel better: my first husband was a virgin when we met. He was 28 at the time. There wasn’t a thing wrong with him, he was just very career driven and hadn’t dated much. He wasn’t the least bit ashamed of his status, though he was happy to finally have a reason to experience sex (i.e., finding someone he wanted to be in a committed relationship with). That was 20 years ago, but things weren’t any different back then for guys than they are today. Most lost their cherries in high school or freshman year of college. I was far more experienced than he, but as Evan says, the subject just kind of came up organically. No one forced any issues.

    In my opinion, women should not have sex with any man who hasn’t at least declared his sincere intention to continue seeing her for the foreseeable future. This is the bare minimum. Ideally, you both agree to be monogamous, he has told you he loves you, and you see this relationship potentially headed someplace. I don’t say this because I’m a prude or some big moralist; I say it because few things are more emotionally painful than oxytocin withdrawal. You really do create a very powerful bond with a lover, hormonally — to the point where a physical craving quickly develops. That’s a big part of where the “falling in love” feeling comes from — you can’t keep your hands off this person, you want to be with them all the time! It’s almost a physical ache when you’re apart. Men are affected to some extent, but with women it’s a serious whammy… and it hurts like hell when you are feeling all bonded and in love with a guy, and they decide, “Eh, on to the next conquest.”

    My advice to all ladies, virgins or not, of any age, is… take care of your heart. Following the script Evan suggested, and then sticking to your guns, is the best way I know of to weed out the players and protect yourself emotionally. Who needs all the wear and tear?

    1. 4.1

      i just realized i’m turning 20 and i’m still a virgin. Big deal! It’s just that, nothing more! i coudn’t agree more with you. U said exactly what i believe it’s the right thing so say, do and think!

  5. 5

    right on! BeenThruTheWars

  6. 6

    Hey! It’s me Hely and i wanted to thank Evan for taking the time to write back and giving me great advises;) From now on i’ll try to not make it an issue!
    And thanks guys for leaving comments as well.

  7. 7

    Hey I just wanted to say great advice everybody. I know men and women but mostly women that have been disappointed because of pressure that they feel to have sex with Mr. Right Now. Great advice and support for women to hear.

  8. 8

    I think you dont have to be shy and worried of being a virgin because your still young . Bieng a virgin is sacred and blessed as written in the bible. Hely your husband soon deserves the first.

  9. 10

    hey thanks for this article… it is very helpful and relieving.

  10. 11

    Being a virgin sucks. I’m 28, still a virgin and I hate it so bad. I should have lost it when I was 20 and I have this amazing boyfriend who loved me, the only man in my entire life who has really loved me. But I was so stupid to believe that s… of waiting until getting married to pleased God. I really regret it every day. How could I be so idiot? In the first place, I’m sure that any “God” gives a damn about me.
    Love isn’t real. Now I know that I have to find out someone who helps me get rid of “this”, just for me, without giving any love and of course, without expecting being loved. I know sounds sad, but life it’s hard, the world isn’t made of cotton candy.

    Don’t make my mistake, if you feel like wanting to have sex, do it before all your friends get married and you are the only virgin single watching everybody having a life while you still trust in silly dreams, but without any real possibility of know what it feels like.


    1. 11.1

      Remaining pure is a great thing and it shows how much you value yourself. You wanting to lose your virginity to anyone just shows that you do not value yourself, have low self-esteem and you have other issues/problems that your going through. Losing your virginity will not get rid of those problems. God does care about you and loves you. Maybe you have not found the right person because you don’t have a strong foundation and your belief in God is weak. If you go and lose your virginity to just anyone you may get pregnant or get a disease. It only takes one time for this to happen. Connect with people who are practicing abstinence and your perspective on it will change. There is more to life than sex and sex was made for a husband and wife so they can keep enjoying each other until death do them part. There’s nothing wrong with doing things the right way. You need to stop comparing yourself to other people because you are a unique individual and your purpose in life is different then theirs. Seek God with your mind, heart, and soul and ask him to reveal to you what your purpose is. Best wishes!

      1. 11.1.1

        Nicely said…amen

      2. 11.1.2

        I used to give advice the same that you just did. But now I’m sure that NO CULTURE before ours (in the past) has EVER had to deal with virgin singles in their late 20s, 30s and 40s+. Especially females. Therefore, the Bible does not address their conundrum adequately. Her frustration has more to do with being at a standstill for life experiences, and having no guidance for a trajectory forward. At least if God called her to be a nun (Vocation, run an orphanage, etc), she could go forward and find other Sisters to live with and change the world with, in community. And she could build her life in network with them, make friends for life, travel the world among the different Nun Orders and help with all the different work that they do. Get a PhD, apply it in missions work, Catholic advocacy or humanitarian law.

        Right now, she’s stuck. And getting upset is perfectly logical. And her faith is under pressure as well. I read somewhere that 80% of single devout people in church are female. I believe it. That means, the older you get, the less promising church is as a dating pool. Especially for Christians. Do the math. If a mass conversion of single, secular men happened today, the church would be full of “Mature Christian” women, and “Baby Christian” men. That doesn’t match up with theological advice about the “Right match” I’ve heard from the pulpit either.

        So this is a challenge to your advice, and to you. What you said may be accurate (Only the 28 year old virgin woman knows), but to be trustworthy, you should consider these other factors too, in determining what advice you give.

    2. 11.2
      same here

      I agree 100%. I fell for it too and regret it more than you can ever imagine. Just live your life.

    3. 11.3

      Your so wrong.You just wanted to have sex because the time was good then and you may wouldn’t have lost you then bf.Now that is not love.Nothing’s wrong with being pure or unexperienced maybe god wants you that way until you marry your husband.It says in the bible to only be with your husband and better to be virgin when marry.Now why would you want to ruin all that?He’d appreciate that and think your special for waiting so long.I know it sucks and it’s hard but it will be worth it and you’d look back and remember you with only your husband!That’s how i see it.

    4. 11.4

      i’m virgin and i just turned 29 and NOOO i dont regret NOT sleeping with my ex bf who left me after 8 months because i wasnt ready to do it and wanted to wait, he had a child was over 40 years and i thought for once a man is interest not in sex but in me but i was wrong, all my friends and sisters are now married and at times i wish i had slept with him maybe i would have a child by now but to think seriously NO im happy i didnt do it because i respect myself and because only now at 29 after thinking alot i feel like what i really want is to save myself for my husband, i want to make him proud and make myself proud, the only thing now is ive learned that i shouldnt be telling guys right away im virgin, ive read in one of the articles that i should just tell him im not ready and later on if we dating just tell him im waiting for the marriage, i hope i meet my man soon, lol But i really think its a bad advice to tell someone go ahead have sex or you will regret one day   i will be a mother and i will never tell that to my kids if i had slept with my ex it would have been even HARDER for me to let go of him, because i believe once you get physical its hard to just forget about that person easily, i have had a few flirts but only one relationship and i dont feel ashamed of it, i know i will make one man happy very soon

    5. 11.5

      Like my story.


  11. 12

    I’m 37 years old and I’m a virgin.   I’m not embarrassed by it because it’s helped me weed out the good guys from the bad – there have been guys who’ve dropped me like a hot potato after finding out, others have laughed in my face upon hearing the “news” and teased me about it, others have broken up with me upon hearing about it.   Do I miss any of them?   ABSOLUTELY NOT!
    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been propositioned by these guys who’ve tried to talk me out of my decision.   Even friends have told me that I should just “get it over with” or “it’s not going to make you a bad person if you have sex”, but they’re also the ones who are complaining about having dated a guy for several years and haven’t yet gotten a wedding ring, or they’ve had to give their guy an ultimatum to get married or they’re going to break up.   I don’t want that type of relationship.
    I know how my heart works and if I were to have sex with guys that I date, I would be crushed and be an emotional wreck.   That’s not worth it to me.
    So as far as I’m concerned, I’m keeping my v-card even if I’m considered to be in the minority.   I want a guy who loves and cherishes who I am…not just my “wet parts”.

    1. 12.1

      Hi I’m a 35 y.o virgin and my longest relationship has only been less than 2 months. I always get dumped because I refuse to put out… I do let men know in advance though that sex i off the table and they always say the respect it but then start getting upset and frustrated not too long into the relationship. I’m starting to feel really bad about myself and thinking maybe I have nothing to offer and that’s why im unable to secure a longlasting committed relationship leading to marriage. Thanks for this article and the comments, they’be given me a sense of hope despite the sadness i’m feeling…

      1. 12.1.1

        I’m a 35 yr old virgin and I’m with u. It’s devastating at times but it’s worthwhile the wait.

  12. 13

    Many thx to this post!!
    And Hely!! I have the situation,, exactly just the same one u have.. So glad knowing I’m not the only one who have this issue.

    And thx Evan! Ure the best!

  13. 14

    Hey I am 24 and still a virgin. Saved me so much heartache. These comments helped me because it seems that every guy I date who has been around will have these ominous expectations of me. I wonder what they really think about it though. In any case, at least I know I wont be hurt real bad and that my future spouse will appreciate me.

  14. 15

    OMG! so I’m not the oldest living Virgin! I’m 34 year old African-American female ,my story is the same as the others but very ,very,very comlicated. when I was in school I became fast friends with a girl in college , she wasn’t raised like I was. long story short I became a mum at 25. Men dont want to get to know me because they assume I have baggage, that I have “baby daddy” issuses. so most of the time I have to block there stereotypes of me. I mean   I have a child I had to have sex to have her….right? WRONG. It doesnt help that I’m pretty and that I’m a twin……she’s not a virgin.(she lost it at 25). whatvI think is funny is men say they want a women that loves her self and have class ,but the minute they find out you are a virgin its like they become weak…within two seconds. there out the door because you just became to much work, men are so use to transaction dont really want to work for it anymore , I want a man! period , and if I have to wait then so be it.  

    1. 15.1


      1. 15.1.1

        Me too…

  15. 16

    That’s what I needed to ear. Just got 20 not long time ago and still virgin. I will take your advise Evan when you said: ”I didn’t want to freak you out or make a big deal out of this, but I only want to have sex with someone that I’m in a committed relationship with. I’m really attracted to you, but until I’m sure that we’re going to be boyfriend/girlfriend, I have to keep saying no. How do you feel about that?”  

    I  used to tell it right on to make things clear, because  I don’t  want to be attached to someone that will drop me when he’ll knows that i’m still a virgin.  Anyway, thank you so much.

  16. 17
    a virgin

    erm…most people do NOT know the meaning of passion…


  17. 18

    I agree that girls and womans being virgin until their get married and give that virginity to man being her husband,she good womans, that like pearls in the sea because their really keep their virginity until they meet someone who became their husbands.

  18. 19

    Being a virgin is a very, very, sad position to be in if its involuntary due to being put through rejection time and time again. I was a virgin until the age of 28. I was ready for sex and desired a sex partner since I was 16. For what ever reason no one ever cared enough to give the freedom to express my sexuality… And believe me I tried! After a tour of duty in Afghanistan, I was going to kill myself because no woman wanted me! I was litterally going mad… The when I got back home to Arizona, a budy of mine explained to me that women dont like a man who is NEEDDY or needs their comfort. I was rejected for so long and so many times, I had no self confidence towards women. This caused me to NEED them to like me … I tried extra extra hard! I bought my dates flowers and opened the doors for them at resteraunts… Buy the third date, I would even give my dates a 18k gold bracelet just to say thanks for not dumping me sooner. Being too nice always backfired… By the fourth or fifth date they usually would want to remain “just friends”. I didnt even have a chance to make an offer to have sex… Anyway, instead of killing myself, (at the time seemed like a viable option) I opted to allow my buddy to order a call girl (prostitute) so I could have a “make believe” girlfriend… one who cared enough about me to express her love and acceptance for me. The reason I was a virgin until the over-ripe age of 28… I just wanted a woman to accept me for who I was and to give herself to me as some sign that I was humanaly worthy, based on my own merits, to recieve her love with the joy of sexual freedom. Every man wants the same… ACCEPTANCE! Some of you women think sex is a vile evil pleasure that men want inflict upon women… Some of you women are so busy protecting your virtue-closet, that you fail to understand that sex is the ultimate expession of acceptance. If dont comfort the man you love with sex, ultimately he will feel rejected… After two-weeks to a month of rejection… any man in their right mind will walk away! Who wants to live in missery and rejection? One lady stated that her boyfriend went 3 months without having sex with her… That poor soul, he put up with all that rejection and then she has the nerve to walk away from the relationship because she was too busy protecting her virtue-closet! Give me a break! Selfish women who only think of themself as the center of the universe will no see any value in sex… Being selfish and creating a “qualification list” of 1001 conditions that must be met before sexual contact is permitted…. THAT IS NOT LOVE, its more like a job interview that files every interview in the “UNQUALIFIED” section of the virtue closet! People get real and start living in the human state you were born in!

    1. 19.1

      Wow, You’re A Man Who Thinks Women Owe You Sex Just Because You’re “Nice”. Women DOn’t OwE Any Men Sex. Period.  

      1. 19.1.1

        Thank you

    2. 19.2

      There are so many things wrong with what you’ve written here, I don’t even know where to begin.

      I guess I’ll start with your bizarre “sex=acceptance” notion.

      Women’s bodies are their exclusive property. The reason for their existence is not the satisfaction of needy men. Whatever feelings of inadequacy, insecurity, and longings certain men are struggling to emotionally process, would be best suited to working through within their own private lives, separate and apart from whether a woman gets into bed soon enough for him.

      Our bodies are solely our own in every scenario, every situation, and every relationship and potential relationship. The problem with your thinking is that (just from my vantage point), you seem to view women as being responsible for the feelings of men. We’re not responsible for anyone else other than ourselves and our own emotions and destinies.

      One lady stated that her boyfriend went 3 months without having sex with her… That poor soul, he put up with all that rejection and then she has the nerve to walk away from the relationship because she was too busy protecting her virtue-closet! Give me a break! Selfish women who only think of themself as the center of the universe will no see any value in sex… Being selfish and creating a “qualification list” of 1001 conditions that must be met before sexual contact is permitted…. THAT IS NOT LOVE, its more like a job interview that files every interview in the “UNQUALIFIED” section of the virtue closet!

      Here’s another problem with this thinking: you are equating a woman making a decision on whether to share her property (her body), in the time frame she decides she is comfortable with, as “selfishness”. You equate sex with un-selfishness and the removal of sex as selfishness. That is very telling and confirms a lot of my thoughts on why many women have slept with men before they are ready, and why women who put restrictions into place on who gets to have access to their bodies are frequently labeled with negative monikers. In the eyes of too many men, access to sex = access to women’s bodies = ultimate amount of ‘cache’ in society, an affirmation of who he is as a man, an affirmation of his concept of masculinity. When a man views himself or other men as having a difficult time gaining this access to women’s bodies, a goal that is viewed as something that should be effortless when it comes to us, there is much moaning, much casting of blame, much pointing of fingers. And those accusing fingers inevitably point back at US for not being unselfish and gracious enough to prioritize men’s feelings.

      It always goes back to the prioritization of men’s feelings. Sorry, I don’t know whether you were aware of how deep this goes, or where its roots ultimately lie, but I’m here to tell you, that from my vantage point and the vantage point of other women, this is what seems to be the core of this thinking.

      That is the problem with the thinking of far too many men in society in general. They ask women to place their needs, their desires, their emotions, their pains, their joys, their struggles, in the ultimate space of importance.

      In your example above, you seemed to think it was the worst thing ever that a woman actually dared to make her boyfriend wait a few months before intimacy, and he didn’t ‘gain access’ even after the time limit, when she realized the relationship wasn’t going to work.

      Did it occur to you that this woman was looking out for numero uno and that was her right? That she was screening a man she had met before he could gain access to her property (body), and that in her opinion, in some way, HE fell short? That his sexual longings weren’t and didn’t have to be her chief and primary concern?

      Call me selfish a million times a day, seven times a day. It doesn’t matter. When it comes to intimacy, I’d ultimately want it in a serious, extremely committed, long-lasting relationship, probably leading to marriage. And that is my right. For the women who have sex on their own terms, whether long-term, short-term relationships, casual intimacy–that is their right. Whatever a woman decides to do with her body is good and right if it is done on her own terms.

      Some of you women are so busy protecting your virtue-closet, that you fail to understand that sex is the ultimate expession of acceptance. If dont comfort the man you love with sex, ultimately he will feel rejected

      Their feelings of ‘rejection’ are not our problem. And no amount of backwards babble is going to make it our problem. We are not tools of comfort for dejected men. Deal. And by the way, it’s not about having a ‘virtue closet’. That is a foolish, mocking terminology. It is called personal ownership over our own bodies.

      1. 19.2.1
        Karmic Equation

        So, what’s in it for the man to be in a relationship with a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with him?

        I wouldn’t argue that “sex equals acceptance” but I would argue that in a relationship, if there is no sex, there is no relationship.

        I know women hate it when I say this, but the fact is that in a relationship, a woman pays for commitment with sex. The man pays for sex with commitment.

        Thus, if the woman removes the sex, then the only one paying for the relationship is the man. And the main reason he was in the relationship in the first place was to get consistent sex.

        How is this fair to him?

        1. Not again

          I think Lance is talking about first dates or at least early stages of dating (or perhaps the friend zone, IDK), not being in a committed LTR.

          Would you still argue it’s unfair to men in the context of dating?

          Even in a LTR, either party can walk away if they aren’t happy with their sex life.

          Also I hope that also applies to men. Because I have to tell you that there a quite a few married women whose husbands are the ones who withhold  or uninterested in sex.

        2. V.G.

          The only thing I can say is that a man who can respect whatever decision a woman makes regarding intimacy and access to her body, is a man who I think can see a future in the relationship, a man who is genuinely attracted to the entirety of the woman beyond just the carnal. There is more to a relationship than sex. How in the world did men and women manage to fall in love, form bonds with each other way back in the day when sex was primarily viewed as something in marriage? Now, I am a feminist. There were a lot of drawbacks to that other side of the coin as well…women being shamed, sexual repression, etc. But my point was that couples still managed to fall in love with each other and appreciate each other, even become absolutely devoted to each other, without having sex first. True romance is loving every part of the woman, accepting her for who she is, her quirks and flaws, her desires and her interests. If it happens to include not wanting to share her body until a serious commitment is made, and the man cannot accept her, then neither one is meant for the other. A man who is invested in the relationship will love her and respect all of who she is, including her decision on when to sleep together. That’s just my opinion.

          While sexual freedom is a wonderful thing, it shouldn’t be pushed to the other extreme, where no matter what thinks, no matter how a woman feels, her body is expected.

        3. Karmic Equation

          @Not Again,

          I was replying to V.G. — and it seemed to me that she was talking about committed relationships.

          In the context of dating, before a committed relationship is agreed upon, there is no relationship, so there does not need to be any sex.

          However, if there IS sex before exclusivity is agreed upon, then it’s UN-committed (aka casual) sex and both parties can still walk away without any obligation of sex/no-sex.

        4. Karmic Equation

          Of course there is more to a relationship than sex, but sex is one of the few things a man cannot get from his friends.

          You’re speaking from an entitlement perspective, not a partnership perspective.

          Women want relationships. Men want sex.

          To get consistent sex, men need to offer commitment. To get a relationship, women need to offer sex.

          When a man rescinds his payment of commitment into the relationship (e.g.,  by cheating) or a woman rescinds her payment of sex into the relationship, they’ve broken the relationship contract. There is no longer a relationship.

          Just as it would be a woman’s right to dump a  boyfriend who reneges on his commitment to her by cheating, a boyfriend has the same right to dump a girlfriend who withholds sex from him.


        5. Not again

          @Karmic Equation –  I know you we’re replying to VG. Was that a clarifyer,  or was that your way of telling me “I wasn’t talking to you…..?”

        6. V.G.

          To get consistent sex, men need to offer commitment. To get a relationship, women need to offer sex.


          Well, WOW, what about love? :/

          I view a man respecting a woman’s decisions on the expression of her sexuality as being an important part of loving and respecting that woman herself. I feel that a man who is genuinely attracted to and in love/falling in love with a woman wouldn’t be deterred because he is attracted to the entirety of who she is. The sum parts of who she is as a woman. Her mind. Her heart. Her personality. Beyond the bedroom. Like I asked, how in the world did men and women fall in love and get married, form that commitment, back in the day when sex was primarily relegated to marriage?

          I really think the issue here is less with certain women who ultimately want that commitment leading to marriage, and more with the way too many men are viewing women’s sexuality. I think the mentality is problematic. In my humble opinion. And you can talk about “entitlement” on my part, that’s fine. Call it what you like. I just don’t agree with this way of thinking.

        7. Karmic Equation

          It was a clarifyer, Not Again. I thought you didn’t know 🙂

        8. V.G.

          Just as it would be a woman’s right to dump a  boyfriend who reneges on his commitment to her by cheating, a boyfriend has the same right to dump a girlfriend who withholds sex from him.


          And just one last thing I’ll say…I addressed this issue of incompatibility in a previous comment. There is, in my opinion, no need for anyone to be “dumped” or for there to be bitter or hurt feelings over the issue of ‘sex/no sex’ if it is made clear at the very beginning what each individual wants, decides, and requires. A man of this attitude who sticks with a woman who’s made her decision clear to not share her body until a serious commitment and/or marriage, truly confuses me…if sex on his time-table instead of hers is important to him, why’s he with her? This man shouldn’t even be involved but seeking out a woman who shares his beliefs and likewise the woman can be free to find a man who respects or even shares hers. Just my own two cents.

        9. Karmic Equation


          How about if the man says he loves her and then goes out and dates other women?

          She has his love, but not his commitment.

          He has her love, but not sex with her.

          If you think that is a fair trade, then sure, love is enough to keep a man in a relationship with a woman he’s not having sex with.

        10. Not again

          @Karmic – gotcha 🙂

      2. 19.2.2

        Look, I think it all just boils down to respect. Respect of women’s boundaries, respect of women’s autonomy. If a man gets the impression or is outright told by a woman that she’s not becoming intimate until a serious commitment or marriage, and this is something he simply can’t abide by, there are other women who are far more compatible with him. No need to chase after or stick around a woman who’s made her decisions clearly opposite to his desires. That way, she’s free to be able to ultimately meet a man who is more than willing to respect her decisions and he’s free to meet a woman who he doesn’t have to wait for. Nobody has to be called ‘selfish’ or told they have a ‘virtue closet’. Everybody’s wishes are respected.


        Women often find themselves in a difficult position in society. Sex and relationships can often be harder for women simply because we can get pregnant and men can’t. Many women tend to become more emotionally attached to a man after intimacy, and for these reasons, there are women out there that just want MORE than a couple of months of dating before they provide their bodies. It really isn’t and can’t be about what men think, what men like, what men desire…it has to solely be about what the woman feels is best for her, whatever that may be. Nobody’s going to look after her except her.

        1. Karmic Equation

          Were you talking about sex before exclusivity in your previous post? I honestly couldn’t tell for sure.

          If you were, then of course, no one, man or woman is obligated to either sex or commitment before exclusivity is agreed upon.

          The caveat is that having sex does not equal commitment if “the talk” hasn’t been had prior to the act.

          OTOH, if a woman promises to have sex after he becomes her bf, and the reneges, that is also not cool. Because then she is getting something (a committed relationship) for nothing (no sex).

        2. V.G.

          Were you talking about sex before exclusivity in your previous post?


          I was speaking about sex before a committed relationship and sex before marriage (there are women out there who are fine with sex in a committed relationship and others who just want to wait until marriage itself). Two different forms of exclusivity. Me personally, this is something I’d want in a relationship headed towards marriage. Other women are more strict, other women are less strict. What I was talking about in all of these scenarios was just respect of a woman’s decisions and boundaries. No ‘virtue-closet’ nonsense.


          OTOH, if a woman promises to have sex after he becomes her bf, and the reneges, that is also not cool.


          I’d agree. A woman should be honest and upfront when she meets and dates a man, and this most definitely includes the parameters of what she’s comfortable with, regarding intimacy. If he can’t handle it, nothing and no one is keeping him with her.

        3. Not again

          I started reading through some of the other comments, A LOT  of which look like spam or robo-comments, and started wondering if the comment from Lance was even real. But it’s too long and detailed  to not be real.

          Anyway, to  VS and Karmic, I agree  with  much of  both your comments (if that’s possible).  The most disturbing  part for me is  that men like Lance, who may seem misguided, yes, but ultimately are just trying to cope with rejection and loneliness, are prime prey  for PUAs. How many guys orbiting in that sphere spewing so much  anger and hatred  against women started out in a similar place?  


        4. Christine

          V.G., I’m just wondering, how do you assess sexual compatibility, without having sex?   I certainly agree that sex isn’t the only important part of any relationship–but I do think that sexual compatibility is one important part (among other things).   What if you hold off on sex until you’re exclusive, have sex–and then find you’re sexually incompatible?   Then, do you resign yourself to having awful sex for the rest of your life?   Or do you dump him? I really am wondering.   I know that sex isn’t the be-all-and-end-all but, I do think it has to be enjoyable to sustain a relationship–and am not sure how to assess that without having sex.


        5. V.G.

          Christine, I guess I just feel if two people genuinely want to be together, then for the women who choose to hold off on intimacy until serious commitment/marriage, sexual compatibility can come from an area of love, deep attraction, mutual respect, and cooperation. I think two people can love and connect with each other beyond the carnal.

        6. Buck25

          @ Not again,

          The answer to you question about guys like Lance and PUA is…a lot of them. First, though, PUA is is not some monolithic concept; it’s evolving and it’s becoming quite varied, in both methodology, and intent; and for all of the unsavory connotations, it’s not all misogynistic, manipulative, and exploitative (though some of it is most certainly all three)

          The better, and somewhat more modern part of the PUA community focuses on trying to understand and relate to women, rather than simply seeing them as the enemy in the battles of the sexes. That side of it sees that a man can’t really enjoy women, unless he basically likes them, and looks more, (though not exclusively, by any means), at the ultimate objective being relationship, as opposed to just getting laid. In its original, and simplest form PUA was all about getting laid, and much more “any legal means to the desired end result”; the strategy and tactics were geared mostly to young men trying to attract 18-25 year old women.

          It’s a good new/bad news scenario. On the one hand, some of the advocacy for manning up, self-improvement, personality development, and understanding what women actually are attracted to and respond to, so as to relate them better, is all to the good, and can’t really hurt anyone, that I can see. Some of the more traditionally negative/ manipulative side, I have grave misgivings about.

          At any rate, guys like Lance, burdened with a fundamental misunderstanding of what women are actually attracted to, as opposed to what they say they like (lots of social convention and conditioning behind that), and maybe more than a bit introverted to boot, go out, have predictable bad luck with women, yet can’t understand why (How could they? No one ever told them differently, in most cases), and eventually see PUA as a solution. What happens next, depends on which side of PUA they encounter.   If it’s the more evolved side, they work on themselves, gain some confidence, get over the fear of rejection, and become what Evan describes as “a nice guy, with balls”. If it’s the traditional, darker side, they go to the other extreme, alpha to the max. The more successful become players; the far more numerous wannabe players fail, and become even more embittered


        7. Not again


          “manning up, self-improvement, personality development, and understanding what women actually are attracted to and respond to”

          Those concepts can be promoted without all the rampant misogyny.  Huge cop out.


      3. 19.2.3


        Personality, I don’t really care what terminology you use. As a man, I found the tone of your little rant rather nasty and condescending. I think you need to learn the difference between “empowerment” (which is a good thing) and and “a power trip”   as in “I’m a woman, I’ll do what I want with my body, when I want, and I don’t give a damn how a man, even one involved with me, feels about that!” The whole tone of your post, is all about YOU, and that part IS selfish.

        Now, you are right on one thing; when you have sex, with who you have sex, and even if you ever have sex or not, is entirely up to you.   You don’t OWE a man, any man, sex. Fair enough? Ok, then it also follows, that any man, including one you love, has an equal right to not commit to you, if there’s nothing in it for him, beyond some vague promise that, IF he does commit, and IF he meets some other conditions, and then, IF you feel like it, you might possibly sleep with him. That’s just as fair, and has the same regard for your emotional needs, as you have for his. From where I sit, you sound like the sort of woman who uses withholding sex, not just as a bargaining chip to get commitment (we all understand that) but as a weapon and control tool, even AFTER commitment. If in fact that is your attitude, all I can tell you, is that if I were a young man, and you told me what you just did about how you think of men, and their emotions and feelings, you wouldn’t have to worry about me ever pressuring you for sex; hell, you wouldn’t have to worry about me asking you for a date, if you were the most beautiful woman on the face of the planet. All I hear in your post, is rage and self-absorption. You see, there’s no “we” in there, anywhere, not even a “when we’re both comfortable with it”. All I see, is “ME!” and “MINE!” You don’t have to “prioritize” men’s feelings, to the exclusion of your own, but you have no special right to discount, disregard and dismiss men’s feelings because you don’t happen to like them. Funny thing about feelings; in a relationship, that’s a two-way street.

        1. V.G.

          I don’t see how you could possibly have gathered all of those ridiculous conclusions from what I said. I really don’t know what in the world you’re talking about. Think whatever you like. It doesn’t matter to me. It’s a big world with a lot of divergent viewpoints…whatever. The only person I see raging is you. With all due respect, I have been calm in all of my replies. Now, if you don’t like the opinion, that’s really not my problem.


          There was no rage in my comments and it wasn’t a rant either, but an opinion shared on a comment board where a variety of opinions are shared. What I was trying to emphasize is that women’s personal boundaries must and should be respected, whatever they may be. Like I mentioned, it is a woman who gets pregnant, not a man. Therefore, I think women get a little more say on who gains access to their bodies and when. If that is selfish, well, my goodness, so be it! Women have the right to get selfish about who they let into their hearts and beds, if that’s what they choose. It’s not about relationships not being a two-way street. I wholly believe in two people cooperating with each other, respecting each other’s personal feelings, opinions, and thoughts. However, a two-way street does not have to = sex before a woman is 100% ready. I have seen so many women disrespected and abandoned by men they let into their intimate lives, before they were ready, before they were sure about his intentions, becoming mothers before they knew what parenthood was about. A lot of the guys they got into relationships with they may have genuinely felt loved them, and they may have felt that they had a solid relationship just to find out otherwise. A woman has the right to make certain choices and set certain restrictions on who she welcomes into her bed. That is literally all I am saying. I don’t know why this simple concept has elicited such an angry response from you.

          I simply believe in women taking care of their own best interests and living their lives according to what they feel works best for them. If that’s sex, great. If that’s sex at a certain point in their life, within the realm of a specific relationship, great. These are valid perspectives. You conveniently skipped over several comments of mine where I said that there is no reason for a man who wants intimacy sooner rather than later, to even stay with a woman who feels the opposite way. There’s nothing forcing him to stick with a woman who feels this way, therefore there’s no possible explanation for all of this anger and finger-pointing I’m seeing.


          Chill out. Relax. Try to see this from a different point of view.

    3. 19.3


      First of all, thank you for your service! Glad you made it back from A’stan! Now to the matter at hand.

      Your buddy was right; women don’t respond well to the approach you were using; you were trying too hard. It’s ok, happens to a lot of guys. You just got the wrong message from some of the things well-meaning people told you as you were growing up. You tried your best, it didn’t work, and it hurt…a lot. Killing yourself is not an option (dead is a rather permanent state of affairs), but fortunately there’s some good guidance on how to fix that problem you’ve had, and eventually find a woman who respects both herself, and you…and will love you. There’s a book, No More Mr. Nice Guy!,   by Dr. Robert Glover, that’s easily available online. There’s some good advice in there, that not only will help you with women, but with the rest of your life, as well. You don’t have to be a bad guy, or a jerk, to do better with women; you can be a good guy, but one who knows he has to take care of himself and his own needs, before he can take care of the needs of others. Evan here call that being “a nice guy, with balls”, and that’s as good a term as any. You have to get your sense of self-worth from you, not someone else; not your buddy, not a woman..YOU. Don’t worry, it’s in there. and that book is good advice on how to find it. Whichever branch you are/were in, you’ve already been taught how to be well-groomed, polite, fit, squared away, and disciplined. You’ve also been taught to have pride in who you are, and what you’ve accomplished. You also know how to stay calm and focused when the excrement hits the rotating blades. That’s a pretty good head start. Remember, you are not unworthy; you are just confused about what women actually want from you. That book will give you some tools, but you have to do the work. HUA?

    4. 19.4

      Asking a guy to wait a little while to get to know each other better isn’t selfish at all Lance. The same as you wanted a girl to accept you for who you really are girls want the same. A guy who breaks up with you because you’ve said you want to wait a few months to get to know each other better isn’t the right one because they clearly don’t really accept you so why would a girl sleep with someone like that?

  19. 20

    I am a virgin but no one knows because I do it humbly and for the Lord. Please believe if it was up to me I would have been scored a touchdown. Moreover, I desire to be married and enjoy myself in the near future. In the meantime I will NOT tell a man up front that I’m a virgin. I told my ex I was a virgin early in the relationship and he tried too hard to get me in his bed. As a result, it may be a turn for a guy but its not any of his business until we both like/love each other for me to share my heart.

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