Why Women Should Make Men Wait For Sex

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If you’ve ever wondered why it seems that men are okay with no-strings-attached sex while women tend to suffer with this arrangement, watch this video closely.

It affirms everything that I’ve ever written about sex and gender in a very logical, concrete manner. In short, women teach men how to treat them. And if, due to equality, birth-control, libido, societal acceptance, and insecurity, many women are willing to have sex with men who don’t call, pay, commit, or make an effort, then those women are essentially teaching men that they do not have to behave well to procure sex.

You want to find out if a man is serious about you? Wait to have sex with him.

My advice is not to tell men that they shouldn’t sleep with women; it’s to tell women that you must have men make a greater investment in you as individuals before having sex.

This is why I created the 2/2/2 rule to screen men through the online dating process.
This is why I say you should wait 5-6 weeks before he’s your boyfriend.
This is why I tell you not to have sex outside of commitment.

You want to find out if a man is serious about you? Wait to have sex with him. If you don’t – because you’re a liberated woman who can have sex whenever you damn well please – don’t be too surprised if a decent percentage of those men never call again. Again, I’m not remotely judgmental of those who have sex without commitment; I will only point out as a dating coach that it tends to lead to sub-optimal results from men because they didn’t have to do anything special to get into bed with you.

Note: there will be no comments about slut-shaming, since no one is shaming anyone, nor calling anyone a slut. Nor will there be comments about how you slept with your boyfriend on the first date and he became your husband. The many exceptions don’t disprove the rule that giving men sex without demanding better treatment is not the best idea.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    Pauline

    Evan said:  I promise: if he really likes you, he’s not going anywhere (yes, even if he’s an alpha male). If he goes away, he didn’t really like you that much.
    This seems to be such a difficult concept for a lot of women to grasp.
    Free at last, (thanks to the pill from an unwanted pregnancy) women have found out that they are able to have sex and really enjoy themselves, yay! Absolutely nothing wrong with that in my book.  
    Evan’s premise that men do what they want when they want, has now turned into women do what they want when they want. There’s a kind of weird double standard going on here, women want to be just like men, having sex whenever with whomever. Now the complaints are running thick and fast about the perfidy of men who won’t commit and have a string of women they can sleep with, just like women who can have their own string of men to sleep with, with no commitment. Or are you secretly thinking that having sex with a guy is going to make him commit to you, it won’t.
    Ladies, it has ALWAYS been up to women to say NO and this has been true since Adam was a boy.
    It has ALWAYS been true that if a ‘product’ has been cheap, easily available and replaceable it doesn’t have a high value and can easily be discarded. Do you keep your disposable coffee cups or take out food containers? No? That seems to be how sex is valued by so many people these days. Hmmm, really great cup of coffee, I so enjoyed that, I’d better keep the disposable paper cup …
    What on earth is so wrong with waiting to have sex. If you want to meet a good man who is really interested in you and wants to be with you, why can’t you wait for sex until he shows you he really does care for you. I know what I think of a man if he starts making sexual advances too early before I even know him and what he’s about, eeeeew what a sleaze!
    Don’t you think that cuts both ways. While a lot of men are very happy that you have sex at the drop of a hat, all they think is that you do the same with every man you meet and you have no standards or boundaries and you don’t value yourself very much. Whether you think all men are male sluts or not, remember most of them do have standards, are able to think past their penis and are more interested in women who also have standards, values are aren’t afraid to stick with them.
      
      
      
      
      
      
      

    1. 21.1
      Jen

      AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

      I don’t know why Evan’s advice is so hard to understand for most.

      Yet these are the same women that complain about men treating them like a piece of meat.   

  2. 22
    Melody

    How do we get a guy to court and romance us? Do we try to do little romantic things for him and hope he will reciprocate?

  3. 23
    LC

    Waiting until you find a guy that actually likes you will keep you celibate for most of your life.   I have been celibate for most of my 20 years over age 18.   It’s just player after liar after loser out there, and they don’t care about us at all.   It’s beyond depressing.   Then you hear about guys who’s wives won’t sleep with them, and it’s because we women are taught that men don’t love the women who give them sex.   Men want the woman who “challenges” them, and that’s what they marry.   I can’t understand how sex supposedly means nothing emotionally to men until after they’re committed/married, and then it suddenly does mean something when it’s being denied.   Then it doesn’t mean anything with the mistress he gets after his wife rejects him once too often.   So which one is it?   Why do men get to change the rules all of the time?

    1. 23.1
      Simon Roberts

      Most young men start out with notions of true love, romance and marriage but the young women beat that out of them.

      Over time, the young men learn that what romance novels say and what actually happens are two completely different things and by the time they are in their late twenties and thirties, they are hardened.

      I’ve had many friends who have ended up saying “love doesn’t exist”.

  4. 24
    Fungirl

    Love it all these ladies who will just report it back as it is: waiting is no guarantee of anything either!!   You will in fact end up getting burned more readily due to lack of sex (thanks to Anne for pointing out that it’s healthy for us to have sex without the shame and guilt) and creating obstacles to real connection to guys who in all honesty are actually very into us (but our rigidity and agenda turn them off eventually).   I won’t get into a commitment without knowing if the sex is going to be good myself and I’m a woman!
    Take this advice with a grain of salt, ladies.

    1. 24.1
      Goldberry

      Of course it’s no guarantee.   He might not be a good match, and either he or you could decide that.   But men have now been conditioned to move on when sex isn’t forthcoming.   It didn’t used to be that way.   That’s what the video is saying: they move on because they can get it “cheaper” elsewhere.   It’s reached the point now that women have trouble being valued and respected unless they devalue themselves.   What a mess!   Instead of focusing on withholding sex as a technique to manipulate men into doing what we want, why not think of it as actually insisting on our true value?   Yes, we’ll lose out on certain men if they don’t think we’re actually that valuable.   (But is it so much of a loss?)
      I hear where some people are coming from b/c I’ve spent years alone and so forth.   But I’d rather be alone than give myself physically to someone who didn’t want to give himself fully to me in return.  
      I’ve been watching some classic movies lately and wow, did they get hitched in a hurry (unless there was some plot twist).   I think they understood better than we do that sex doesn’t have to be so primary, but also that waiting for it for ages wasn’t the best plan.   Desire comes and goes, but once you’re committed to someone you’re free to care about them openly in every way.   The attachment and commitment sets you free to enjoy everything more.
      Hilarious movie recommendation: “I Was a Male War Bride” (streaming on Netflix)

  5. 25
    MsB.

    If you live in NYC, LA and similar cities I don’t see how something like this could work.   Sorry, I’d like to hear a *concrete example* of something like this working out.   I’d like to hear from someone who did this and it “worked”   – the woman “snagged” her “catch”.
    Give me a break.   Unless you are a supermodel or religious fundamentalist, I find that concept a very hard sell. Plus as a woman who likes sex, what the hell am I going to tell this guy if I don’t like the sex?   Erm, thanks for the dates, but no???   Sex is a VERY big deal in any relationship.
    Actually, if I dated a guy who did not want to sleep with me by the third date, I would be horrified.   I’d think he has a 2-inch penis or is asexual. I am not looking for a friend here.

    1. 25.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I have hundreds of concrete examples of women who used the very script I outlined in “Why He Disappeared”. These women establish reasonable healthy boundaries, engage in foreplay and let men know that they don’t have sex outside a committed relationship. The men get to hook up, have fun, feel attractive, and know that their date doesn’t sleep with every guy on the third date just because it feels good. If he likes her, he’ll come back for more hooking up (with a line drawn before intercourse). If that’s too much trouble – if he literally can’t stand one more date without using a condom, he will move onto greener pastures. And my client will be glad she didn’t sleep with a guy who put his own sexual satisfaction above her (very reasonable) boundaries. Her alternative: having sex because she’s a cool chick and then going home to find her date looking up other women online and feeling like crap while she waits for him to maybe text or maybe sleep with her again without commitment, followed by more sleeping with him, potentially getting attached, and keeping her fingers crossed that he may want a relationship. Empowering!

      1. 25.1.1
        Suzanne

        Evan, I understand that you have examples of how this  philosophy worked. I guess you have enough testimonials to prove this to be true. But I am sure there are hundreds of examples that were equally successful doing the complete opposite of what you advocate. I can certainly think of quite a few ladies that met their husbands using anti-Evan techniques, me included.
          
        Take some constructive criticism. I don’t think anyone here has a problem with your advice. I think people have a problem in that you act like this is the only way that works. You should give your opinion to your letter writer. But whenever someone  gives another viewpoint in comments section, you get sarcastic and snarky. I noticed you did that with many male commentators in prior blogs. Some of them were whiny and deserved it. But now you are doing it to women too. Not cool at all. You are violating your own code of conduct in that opposing viewpoints are met with arrogance instead of keeping it as a healthy debate.
          
          

        1. Evan Marc Katz

          Suzanne, cut down on the exaggeration. There are 1000 blog posts and 55,000 comments. Do you really think I get sarcastic and snarky whenever someone gives another viewpoint? Do you think that I have 55,000 comments saying, “I totally agree!” If that’s what you think, then perhaps you need to go back and read some more. There is tons of dissent on this blog. What I resist are bad arguments based on illogic, straw men, slippery slopes and other logical fallacies. In other words, I have no trouble with dissent; I have great trouble with people who misinterpret or misunderstand something I wrote. That means I must become a clearer writer, so the onus is on me. But simply the fact that your comment saw the light of day, Suzanne (violating my code of conduct which says don’t insult the host) means that evidently I have a greater tolerance for respectful debate than you give me credit for.

        2. XO

          He never said that this was any sort of guarantee that you will find a husband – unless I am missing something – but rather a way of weeding out the guys who are not seriously interested in you. If you have sex early on, before you actually know/vet the guy and his character, you are more likely to get played, so to speak.   Sometimes you can sleep with someone early, who is not a “player,” and it works out. Knowing someone well before you have sex can save you some unnecessary heart ache. You might not be able to avoid it, but you will reduce the risk and see clearly when you are wasting your time sooner rather than later. Why is this such a hard thing to grasp?

          I do some hard-core vetting on the people who watch my kid, why wouldn’t I for someone when I am looking for a long-term partner? Wow. Even pet adoption agencies ask for and check references. If a potential partner doesn’t get that there are standards for being with me, which are really not unreasonable and focus a lot on attraction, his health, and how he treats people, then he probably doesn’t have the same outlook on long-term partners and relationships that I do. That speaks volumes and makes my decision simple.

      2. 25.1.2
        Jenn

        Evan, oral sex is still sex. It doesn’t matter that you’re not going all the way. And why do you keep saying that a woman needs to rip a guy’s clothes off to “make him feel attractive”? That bothers me because there are plenty of ways to make men feel that you find them attractive without blowing them.

    2. 25.2
      Marie

      Ms. B, there is a whole compendium of several hundred blow-by-blow posts on the Forum of how I met my husband by sticking to my principles and waiting to have sex until I felt there was emotional commitment on both sides.   I am neither a supermodel or religious freak.   Why don’t you read it before being so judgemental.  

  6. 26
    Cat5

    The statement that was something like women have something of value that men want…isn’t that the problem?   As a society, we have devalued sex?   Making it easy and available and talked about and shown in such minute and graphic detail so as to make it valueless because it’s available everywhere at anytime.   So what’s the pointing — having sex right away or holding off until later?   It doesn’t matter either way.

  7. 27
    Lynn

    I used to do the casual sex thing back in the day (the 70’s). Liberated woman and all. Now a divorced empty nester in my 50’s. Tried the casual sex thing again a few years ago. Hated it. Nowadays I value myself much more highly. I like men, a lot. I’m warm and gracious and welcoming (these are the words I most frequently hear from them). And no matter how much they get my hormones revved up I still don’t have sex with strangers. Seeing as how my hormones have been terrible judges of character 🙂 It’s not a policy that seems to be winning over the dating masses but I sure as hell feel so much happier with myself, dating, and men! Having this boundary has helped me relax and enjoy myself. Thanks, Evan.

    1. 27.1
      Selena

      Lynn:   Seeing as how my hormones have been terrible judges of character
        
      I’m LOL literally.   I can relate. 🙂

  8. 28
    SparklingEmerald

    Yep, men are clearly in the driver’s seat when it comes to commitment, and boy are they ever smug about it.   The video pretty much nailed it, right down to the SMIRK on the cartoon dude’s face, and the SAD expression on the cartoon girl’s face.
    The nookie sampler platter has been going around   3-4 decades now, men have been enjoying the free samples for a long time and have no motivation to step up.   The only thing that REALLY seems to motivate men to marry is when they desire children.   I’m almost 59 now, so that that last piece of my “market value” went down the drain long ago. And now, with the acceptability of single motherhood, men can have children with a “baby mama”   instead of a wife.   They can have the benefits of fatherhood, and often times escape any significant responsibility.   Even if they get sued for child support, if they are low wage earners, it won’t be much, and they still escape the hard day to day work of caring for a child.   For $100 a month, they get to pass on their genes, bang their baby mama for kicks, and be a Disney dad with their offspring, then send them home to   baby mama, and she can come home after work, and help with the home work, feed and bathe the kids, and do ALL of the hands on work by herself.   Such a sweet deal for a man who wants to pass on his genes via a “baby mama”.   Who ever commented that women have to have a set number of dates across the board, communicate it in advance, and apply it consistently to all men is nuts.   Not all men treat me equally.   So if I arbitrarily set date 8 as the magic date, and a man who has been attentive, caring & leading me to a relationship and asks for an exclusive relationship after 6 very long, fun,   and thoughtful   dates, I MUST make him wait 2 more dates in order to be “fair”to the last guy that I had sex with on date 8 ??????     Or if a guy takes me on 8 short dates, communicates very little in between, and doesn’t show a real interest in getting to know me as a person, I am obliged to “sex up” on date 8 ????   (8 dates wouldn’t happen with a guy who treated me like that, but just using that as an example)
    Well, for me, sex was never about a timeline or X number of dates.   It’s about when I feel safe &   secure emotionally.   Now many men SNEER at the idea of meeting OUR emotional needs,   and are just out to have their sexual needs serviced.  
    I am not looking to get married again, although if I met an amazing man who loved me and really WANTED to marry, I wouldn’t deny him that, but really, FAT CHANCE of that happening, since men are no longer motivated to marry.   I was hoping for something long term, comitted and monogomous,   but sexual economics,   seems to have put that out of my reach.     I don’t want to be just another tasty tid-bit going around on the nookie sampler platter.   I don’t want to be a FWB, ONS, booty call, or even a 3 month quality casual relationship.   But if I won’t “sex up” on date 2, plenty of other women will, so really, what is a man’s motivation to get to know me and develop a relationship with me ?
    It’s sad for me to finally realize that love &   romance are nothing more than delusions to dress up the biological necessity of BREEDING.   And it’s never been more than a crude exchange of goods and services in the social market place.  
    In the past, we were railroaded into marriage by social constructs.   Men would do anything for sex, so women with held sex to get the economic benefits of marriage.   Women were forced into the role of being guardians of the nookie, because so few other economic options were available to us.  
    Now that women have economic opportunity, the pill has given us sexual freedom, men don’t have to marry for sex, women don’t have to marry for economic security.   The old construct of marriage really does seem like something akin to the oldest profession.
    Now that men and women are free to marry for true love, guess what ?   Marriage is on decline.   So much for true love !
      

    1. 28.1
      Danaris

      SE,  
      Like you when watched this video, it made me really depressed — but as someone else indicated — it really was designed to scare women — scare women into not having sex before marriage on the false premise that the reason men are not committing to women and that marriage is declining is because sex is too available.   When I calmed down and started thinking rationally, I started looking for other more scientific sources for why marriage is declining   and here is what I learned.
      1.   Marriage in the US is on the decline — but the decline is largely being driven by lower income, lower educated folks.   Also, religion is a big reason why people feel marry and as the US becomes less religious, then marriage also declines.   However, the reason that marriage is declining among the less educated, lower income is NOT because men won’t commit it is because women don’t see the purpose of marrying men who can’t support them.   Multiple sources suggest that it   is the decline of decent paying   blue collar jobs that is making a whole group of MEN   unmarriagable.   
      2.   While marriage is declining, co-habitation has increased significantly.   I’ve haven’t seen anything to suggest that it completely makes up for the decline in marriage, but it is very high.   The important point is that men are women are still committing to each other — just not legally.   And, as a number of men on this blog have indicated, the prospect of divorce and how it can be financially devastating to a man, may be another reason why some men don’t marry, but still want to be in a loving and committed relationship.
      To be honest, I’m a little disappointed that I let myself even believe for a moment that all men want is sex….that’s just not true.   I’ve seen with my own eyes how men want, no not just want, the need more than sex just as women do.    In a way, this video was quite insulting to men as a group.      When I read men’s online profiles, you can see what many men are craving — and I do think they are being sincere and not just saying anything to get into a woman’s pants.   They do want a friend, a companion, someone who will support and believe in them.   
      In our instant gratification society, finding love is one area where many of us can’t snap our fingers and get it on demand.   It takes time and effort and a bit of heartache and frustration along the way.   So, we are bound to have days where we blame each other for our “failures” — men are dogs who just want sex…women are leeches who just want money.   When the real truth is we are just human beings who need to love and be loved.   
      Finally, despite my issues with the video, Evan’s advice about waiting   to have sex if you are seeking a long term relationship is still right in my mind as well as in the mind of lots of dating experts.    I want to wait to make certain I actually like the man — cause I know when I want to have sex on the first date, it’s all about lust.   
      FYI, lots of men indicate in their profile that they are just looking for something casual and don’t want any kids.

      1. 28.1.1
        Julia

        Thank you Danaris. I didn’t comment on this at first because I found the video so highly offensive to men and women. And considering the people who produced have a far right-winged “family values” agenda and wish to end birth control, I need to take it with a grain of salt. I am baffled that it was posted frankly. That being said, I don’t think the advice is bad and is good at rooting out men who would sleep with you, enjoy time with you but ultimately don’t want to commit. That being said, one doesn’t need to wait to find commitment. I know I didn’t but my boyfriend made me feel so incredibly safe from day one, I knew it wasn’t a risk. Luckily I was right and luckily he continues to make me feel safer than ANY   men ever has. I think what we always need to remember as women is to look for how a man treats us.

        1. XO

          Completely agreed. This institute has been called out for pushing an anti-gay, anti-woman agenda, and doing poor research.

      2. 28.1.2
        Dina Strange

        This video did NOT scare women into not having sex with men. I think a lot of people here (especially women, what a surprise) are so self centered that they are totally missing out on the whole POINT of that video.
        Evan, great video. Thank you even though it’s such a pity to see so many women here misunderstand the point that video made.

        1. Danaris

          DS,
          Based on your comment, I went back and re-watched the video and upon a second viewing, I can see why you had a different interpretation of the message from the video.      The thing is we all see things through the lens of our life experience and what we take away is shaped by that experience.   One thing that I am challenging myself to do is to really think about why someone could interpret something differently than I do and see if I can learn from what they see.    Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do that.      By watching it again,   I have come away with a slightly different take away.    Oddly enough, however, it still isn’t as simple as wait to have sex until a man is commented to you.   

  9. 29
    Morris

      
    I’m not sure why this is even a debate.   Men like sex.   And some men will say/do anything to get sex.   The fact that sex is basically on tap in this day and age should be used to YOUR advantage.   At the end of the day 9 out of 10 times you can weed-out the dbags and players by waiting a bit before having sex.   Doesn’t mean the men who get past that are going to want to marry you.   But if there is a good way to weed those men out I don’t understand why someone looking for a LTR wouldn’t consider it.

    1. 29.1
      Dina Strange

      Great reply!

  10. 30
    Lynn

    SparklingEmerald in #28 I raised three amazing sons. They have all been clear for a long time that they want a wife and kids. Oldest is married with two boys. He’s a wonderful husband and dad. Middle son came close last year but they wisely realized they weren’t ready. Youngest feels he’s still too young in his very early 20’s. We talk pretty openly about their dating lives. They’re not always angels but they usually behave with a fair amount of integrity. And yes, their girlfriends/dates often talk with me too. As does my daughter in law.
    So when you dismiss men as wanting to do nothing more than pass on their genes without responsibility to the baby mama I feel sad. Surely my sons aren’t the only men out there with some integrity. In fact, I’d bet money that there are more of them than not. My wish for you would be to see the good ones!

    1. 30.1
      SparklingEmerald

      Lynn @ 3o-   Sorry, I guess I should have made myself clearer.   Of course not ALL men, or even MOST men are going to pass on their genes via a “baby mama”, but since single motherhood has lost it’s stigma, (no, I don’t want to bring back socially ostracizing single moms)    so has single fatherhood, and many people, both men and women are intentionally opting for single parenthood.   Of course, sometimes one person in the parenting duo staged an “accident”   (cough, cough, usually the baby mama)   in order to move the relationship to the next level, and then that blows up in their face.   (I’m not being anti-woman here, nor am I saying ALL women do this, but with the widespread availability of effective birth control, and the number of “accidental” pregnancies, well do the math.   They can’t ALL be “accidents”)
      Yes, there are many men who still want fatherhood, marriage and the total package.   But there are some men who have no problem with low investment fatherhood via a baby mama or even several baby mamas.   And there are many women who could economically afford to be a single mom, so they intentionally opt for that via artificial insemination, adoption, or the old fashioned way.   I suspect in the many of the cases, their first choice was married motherhood, but as the time on the bio time clock started running out, they went for their second choice of single motherhood.

  11. 31
    Rose/Girl in the Midwest

    I gotta agree with Evan here, I just don’t see why what he’s saying is that ground-breaking. It’s common sense. I think of waiting to have sex as a more risk-averse strategy.   A very, very, very, simplified representation of reality (just to illustrate a point):
        
    Reality #1: The guy is a good person and he genuinely likes you and wants a serious relationship with you.    
      
    Choice 1:   You sleep with him “too soon”.   Likely outcome 1a: no harm done.   He is a kind person and not judgmental and he is into you and dates you and you get married.    
      
    Choice 2: You don’t sleep with him until you know him and his intentions well enough.   Likely outcome 1b: no harm done.   He willingly waits until you’re ready.   The only thing that is “lost” is several months where you guys could have been having sex.   But if you get the guy and get to have sex with him for life, what’s the big deal in missing out on several months of sex?
      
    Reality #2: The guy is just after sex and is not interested in a serious relationship or he is not interested in a serious relationship with you.  
      
    Choice 1: You sleep with him “too soon”.   Likely outcome 2a: you get emotionally invested, then when you find out his true intentions, you get hurt.   Then become cynical, get more baggage to carry for future relationships.  
      
    Choice 2: You don’t sleep with him until you know him and his intentions well enough.   Likely outcome 2b: He breaks up with you.   But you weren’t really emotionally invested, and you’re not too hurt (maybe your ego is a little hurt).
      
    Everybody still on board?
      
    So looking at the four likely outcomes, obviously the worst is 2a, then 2b. But you don’t get to pick the outcome, and you don’t get to pick the reality. You can only pick the choices: 1 or 2. The key is, when we first meet someone, we don’t know if we’re in Reality #1 or Reality #2. And in my opinion, when we don’t know, the more protective and risk-averse strategy is to pick Choice 1.
      
    Notes and disclaimers:
      
    I say “likely outcome” because there are always exceptions. It’s not a formula, it’s not like “if you make him wait 6-8 weeks, your relationship with him will work! Guaranteed!”. There is absolutely nothing you can do to guarantee any outcome in your life (sorry folks). The best you can do is to maximize those odds.
      
    Women who experienced outcome 1a are lucky. They are the ones who tell the stories about how “I slept with my now-husband on our first date and now our marriage is awesome, so screw what Evan is saying.” Hell, that happened to me too. My wonderful and supportive and fun relationship with my college boyfriend started with sex, but I can’t always count on being that lucky. In a way, these stories are told with good intentions but they can hurt women as well, giving false hope and all.
      
    Instead of saying “make him wait”, I said “until you know him and his intentions well enough”. I don’t think women should make men wait for sex just to play games with the guy, or just to make him jump through hoops and “test” him and see how much bullshit he’s willing to put up with to see how much he’s “into” you. That’s immature. I think this “delaying sex time” should be precious information-gathering time used by the woman to assess him with a clear head. Don’t make him wait b/c you think it’s more socially acceptable to do that, or you think otherwise he’ll think you’re easy, or you think it’ll make him chase you and “turn up the romance”. But ladies, this time is for you. Be respectful of his time and resources, and treat him well in the meanwhile, but you’re ultimately doing this for you.  
      
    A lot of women are saying that in their cities, if they did this, there would be no men to date b/c they’d all just find other women who will put out. I’m assuming that you treat him well otherwise. I don’t have an answer for you there. Sorry, that does sound like a terrible dating scene. Also some people are saying that if they “make men wait”, they end up being celibate for months or years. That’s the cost of looking for a relationship. Opportunity costs are a bitch.  
      
    When I was younger, I used to be flattered when a guy “is just so attracted to me that he just really really really wants to have sex with me and he can’t wait and that’s why he keeps asking me for sex!   OMG I feel so wanted!”   (I’m not saying other women are like this, I’m just giving a personal anecdote.)   Nowadays, I want guys who act like he really wants to have sex with me, but after hinting or pushing me for sex once, doesn’t push me anymore until I’m ready to have sex with him.   Because to me that says he wants me.   But he’s putting my needs and wants before his own.   That’s truly flattering.  
      
    And there is a world of difference between “having sex with him on the 3rd or 5th date” and “waiting until marriage”.   You’re going to have a bad time in life if you can only think in extremes.   I feel bad for Evan because he’s had to defend himself so many times over this.
      

    1. 31.1
      Sabine

      Spot on Rose! You really said/reiterated this well. Think about it: when you have sex with someone too soon, you are literally having sex with a stranger. For example, there’s not much difference in having dinner and sex on the first date or meeting a guy in a bar and doing the same. Both men are esentially strangers. I am wondering if the same “rules” should apply when you start dating a friend who you know? You’ve already gotten to know each other. How long does one wait then? Same rules to wait since you are now more than friends? I am just curious…

  12. 32
    Selena

    “The Pill” is turning 54 this year.   She’s a golden girl. With several hormonal birth control “offsprings”. The video- presented by sociologists – does not offer any new ideas. Sociologists and cultural anthropologists have   studied and published observations about how the Pill has affected mating patterns   since the 1960’s. Almost half a century now.   Most people reading this blog weren’t even born when the pill became available, or were too young to know what it was.   Was anyone really surprised by the content of the video? We’ve all grown up with it.
      
    The economics of sex have changed since the availability of hormonal birth control. As the video pointed out, sex was a more valuable “commodity”   before HBC because pregnancy wasn’t so easily avoided. And because it wasn’t — we had:
    People not having sex until they married.
    Teenagers marrying as soon as they could so they could have sex.
    People of any age marrying quickly so they could have sex.
    People marrying because they had sex and became pregnant.
    People who found they had really unsatisfying marriages   because they basically married to have sex/ became pregnant without much life experience or   experience with the person they married.   They “committed” because there was a significant social stigma if they did not.
      
    For those who found the video depressing — Would you want to go back to that time? Really?
      
    Effective and available birth control is not going to go away. Sex is no longer much of a “commodity”.   BOTH men and women can find sex if they if they want it.   Finding a connection to someone beyond genital contact? That’s the new commodity.  
    In the cartoon where the guy has 4 bikini lad women   hovering over him?   Sure he can get sex.   But he might also want to fall in love.   And love is more involved than sex.   Personality compatibility   is a high that outlasts infatuation.   It’s something that can carry us through the difficult times.  
    Consider that:   it’s not so much about sex these days as it is about finding something more than sex.   I don’t believe arbitrary timetables   accomplish this.   Put the hormones aside for a moment… what does the rest look like?  
    Bless   you Margaret Sanger for your work for humanity.

    1. 32.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      I’ll remind you that I didn’t offer an arbitrary timetable. I only suggested that a woman know where her relationship stood before she had sex.

      1. 32.1.1
        Selena

        You didn’t offer an arbitrary timetable? From your post above:
        This is why I say you should wait 5-6 weeks before he’s your boyfriend.
        This is why I tell you not to have sex outside of commitment.
          
        Last year your *suggested* timetable was 2-5 weeks before having sex. With a commitment. The commitment being the guy agrees not to have sex with anyone else whilst he is having sex with *you*.
          
        Commitment is far too heavy a word to apply to people who choose to have sex with only each other after 2-6 weeks of acquaintance. As Mary Poppins would say: “That’s a pie crust promise. Easily made. Easily broken.”
          
        The video points out sex is not the same “commodity” it was 50+ years ago. An arbitrary timetable is not going to change that.
          
        As commenter Lynn adroitly observed: Hormones are not always the best judge of character. I will add,   not after a couple of dates, not necessarily 6 weeks later either.
          
        So that brings us to something you EMK have often advised: Look at dating as if you are the CEO of your romantic life and the man/men you are dating are interns vying for the job as your boyfriend.   How well are they doing? Overall, not just with sex.
          
        No timetables for this. Just week by week observation and evaluation.
          
          

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Selena @ 32.1.1. – I tend to agree that a time frame of 2-5 weeks, vs 5-6, still seems rather soon, and the “sexclusivity” commitment is rather flimsy.   Factor in, that this is supposed to be after a slow trip around the bases.   So, some clothes are coming off, undone, or seriously re-arranged and most likely someone had the big O during the base rounding stage.   Some sort of partial sexual exploration short of intercourse has happened very early on.
          I want something in between waiting for marriage or be considered damaged goods &   ruined for life,   and   this hanging out and hooking up culture, where we just put out without knowing where we stand and the guy not putting in an ounce of effort.  
          I think EMK’s plan offers something in between, but I guess it really isn’t “in between” enough for me.   I need more time than that, I need more than an agreement of “sexclusivity” that I literally teased out of guy, while he was sliding my panties down during the “base rounding” stage.
          I really think that   the so called sexual revolution, just created a NEW set of problems.   And this is where I disagree with many of the people who point out the problems with society’s new free wheeling approach to sex.   Yes, our current sexual “marketplace” is fraught with problems, but they paint “the good ol’ days” as well, the good old days.   But let’s face it, the good old days weren’t all that good.   If they were so   great, we would not have revolted against them.     If women had such a charmed existence, they would have never demanded “liberation”.  
          I know many people like to blame feminism & the sexual revolution for the current “sexual market place”, but I think feminism and the sexual revolution were SYMPTOMS that all was NOT well when it comes to male and female relations.  
          Selena did a very good job of pointing out the pitfalls of the “good old days”.   Every woman in this current market place who desires marriage and motherhood is well aware of the pitfalls facing us today.     Anyone who tries to point out a problem or offer a solution to our current dilemma is accused of either “slut shaming” or promoting sluttiness.
          I appreciate EMK’s attempt to reach a middle ground solution for   women who come to him for advice,   and while it is something that certainly falls in between the 2 extreme sexual cultures,   it still doesn’t feel like a workable solution for me.
          And when I see these testimonials from EMK’s happy clients, it actually makes me feel MORE hopeless than hopeful.   I see women who appear attractive enough to be able to find love on their own, without spending thousands of dollars to learn how to do, what I thought mother nature DESIGNED us to do NATURALLY !   In my own life, I meet   women who are attractive and personable.   They are   either struggling to find love,   or settling for crumbs.     I just think to myself,   “It shouldn’t be so DIFFICULT !   Women should not have to memorize word for word scripts to communicate simple concepts to a man.   We should not have to go over our body language with a fine tooth comb, cultivate perfect good looks,   and police our very thoughts, because apparently men who supposedly can’t read minds, WILL know if we have ever felt frustrated and will pick up on that “vibe”.
            
          The old sexual market place of women exchanging nookie for a lifetime of financial security is gone and won’t be coming back.   (Good riddance to that sexual market place)   Now women don’t NEED a man for financial security, as we are capable of providing our own financial security, but we still WANT love, romance and marriage, even tho it’s not necessary for our economic survival.
            
          Men on the other hand, no longer need marriage to procure nookie.   Nookie is flowing like beer on tap, and men are bellying up to that happy hour and having themselves a good ol’ time.   Now that men don’t HAVE to marry for sex, most of them are saying, “Women !   Screw ’em”.   And that is what they are doing.
            
          I am now convinced that we are just thrown into this mating dance by biological necessity, a breeding arrangement to perpetuate our species.   Men & Women don’t fit together, mentally, emotionally or spiritually, the ONLY way we fit together is physically.   Mother nature tricks us with her rose colored glasses and oxytocin cocktails into thinking that male/female relationships are so magical & sparkly, when it’s really just breeding, all dressed up.
            
          As a society, we are constantly looking for ways to manage our breeding.   We need to do this to insure the continuation of our species, and that the offspring produced by our mating are protected and cared for.   We’ve tried strong arming people into lifetime commitments via financial & sexual incentives & consequences.   We’ve seen problems with that arrangement.   We’ve decided to adopt an “anything goes” as long as you play it safe (birth control, disease prevention) and that isn’t working out so well either.
          There may be a working solution to managing our breeding while creating emotionally satisfying relationships, but I don’t think it will be found in my lifetime.
            

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          Selena, the point isn’t about 3 weeks vs. 5 weeks. The point is to figure out if you’re in a relationship or not. 5 weeks is just a very “normal” amount of time to make a more informed decision. 2 dates is not. You’re very hung up on weeks or dates. I’m not. I’m hung up on the idea of not having sex outside of commitment if you can’t handle the consequences.

        3. Joe

          @ SE: Nookie is NOT flowing like beer on tap.   It may be for some men, but not all men.

    2. 32.2
      SparklingEmerald

      Selena @32 said   – “For those who found the video depressing — Would you want to go back to that time? Really?”
      Speaking as one who found the video depressing (although I had already concluded what the video had concluded), NO, I do not want to go back to “that time”.   You did an excellent job of cataloging the pitfalls of “those times”.  
      But all that has happened when we went from the extreme sexual mores of “those times” to the other extreme that we have today, is that we have traded one set of problems for another.   Instead of couples being trapped in horrible marriages (and I was the byproduct of one of those horrible marriages), people are now trapped in lonely singledom.
      How about something in between the extreme of   virginity until marriage, or a girl is ruined for life,   and   the other extreme of putting out first, asking questions later ?
        

      1. 32.2.1
        Julia

        “But all that has happened when we went from the extreme sexual mores of “those times” to the other extreme that we have today, is that we have traded one set of problems for another.”
          
        Allow my offer an example as to why “those times” are worse than “these times” When I was 24 I went out with a guy on 3 dates and I thought he really liked me. I slept with him and never heard from him again, I was really upset for maybe 2 weeks.
          
        At 25 my grandmother was already married to my grandfather for 8 years. They had 3 children. He was a severe alcoholic, who spent all his money and time at the bar, when he came home drunk every day he would beat my father and his two older sisters. My grandmother would have to throw herself in between her husband and her children to protect them. But because she only had a 10th grade education and had no rights, she had to stay with him for another 15 years, and had 2 more children. You can only guess how the lives of those 5 children have been.
          
        So no, I wouldn’t trade my problems for her problems. Divorce isn’t bad. It isn’t bad that two people who hate each other can leave one another. It isn’t bad that a woman can leave a man her abuses her. It isn’t bad that people can wait to find a suitable partner and have multiple sex partners in their lives. It isn’t bad that we can date for a couple years and really get to know one another. It isn’t bad that I’ve never been burdened with a child I couldn’t afford to care for.

        1. SparklingEmerald

          Julia – I agree that the “good ol’ days” weren’t so good, but   these times aren’t so great either.   I do think what we have now is the lessor of 2 evils, but less problematic, is still problematic.
          I have to admit that in my own situation, I am in the lessor 2 evils.   I HATED my divorce, but I am better off divorced, than miserably married.
          However, rather than have to choose between miserably married, or less miserably single, I’d like “none of the above” and would like to be happily coupled up.   (with or without a ring)
          Even a committed long term non-marital relationship is out of my reach now.   So all I can do now is make the most of my singledom.     I have my meet ups,   my girlfriends,   my job, my house, my health,   I am signing up for a class in 2 weeks, I have my son . . . all that’s missing is someone to share it with, but no one (or hardly anyone) wants to share it with me.  
          So rather than being trapped in a miserable marriage,   I just have to face being trapped in singlehood, and make the most of it.  

      2. 32.2.2
        Selena

          SE: ” Yes, our current sexual “marketplace” is fraught with problems, but they paint “the good ol’ days” as well, the good old days.   But let’s face it, the good old days weren’t all that good.   If they were so   great, we would not have revolted against them.     If women had such a charmed existence, they would have never demanded “liberation”.
          
        That made me smile.   Words that should be printed out and taped to a few mirrors. 🙂
          
          

        1. Selena

          EMK:   Selena, the point isn’t about 3 weeks vs. 5 weeks. The point is to figure out if you’re in a relationship or not. 5 weeks is just a very “normal” amount of time to make a more informed decision. 2 dates is not. You’re very hung up on weeks or dates. I’m not. I’m hung up on the idea of not having sex outside of commitment if you can’t handle the consequences.
            
          Evan, I completely agree with this. Always have. Ironically it’s YOU   I thought was hung up on number of weeks. (Throwing hands in air 🙂   )  
            
          I believe both men AND women have sex when they feel comfortable doing so.   For some that might be the same day they meet.   For others, their wedding night. For most I think it’s sometime within the first month or so.   That’s what sexual freedom is – to have sex when you feel comfortable doing so.
            
            I’ve been surprised by reading men on the internet stating they have a 2nd. or 3rd. date ‘rule’.   To me this about screams “I don’t want a relationship, I just want to get laid dammit!”   And the thought has crossed my mind that their ‘rule’ might be an exercise of wishful thinking. 🙂   It doesn’t surprise me that many women don’t buy into it.
            
          The only problem I have with your advice on this topic Evan is that you persist in calling an agreement a commitment.     If two people agree they won’t date/sleep with others whilst they see where things go between the two of them – it’s just that – an agreement.    Either one   could decide the next week they aren’t a good match. Or sexually compatible. Or not that in to each other, or the potential relationship.   Calling such an agreement a commitment is at best misleading when the people have known each other a short time.
            
          I may be misinterpreting here, but given the headline you applied to this blog post it seems you are suggesting women will increase their “sexual market value” by waiting to have sex.   The video you linked to supports the opposite.   Cartoon woman with her arms folded apparently “waiting” while cartoon man is enjoying the attention of 4 bikini clad women who presumably aren’t going to wait.   Maybe I am just dense, but I didn’t get the message from the video that “Waiting Is Good!”  
            
          The message I got is that effective, available birth control has changed sexual economics.     And as a woman, and a woman with a degree in Social Science, I’ve known that for decades.

      3. 32.2.3
        Middle Ages

        I agree with your posts SparklingEmerald, I don’t know why this has to be so difficult. I am in my mid 50’s and have no children and no close family. Right now I am in good health, but that can always change as the years go by. Maybe my best bet at some point may be to form a coalition of my single, childless friends to share expenses and help one another if one becomes ill. I had hoped for a loving marriage where both partners would help one another through good times and bad, but all I can find is men who want to use me for sex or money.

        My mother is still living, but has cancer and a physically abusive husband who will not help care for her when she is ill. My stepfather has used her financially for 35 years. At age 77, and in chemotherapy, my mother still works part time to support a man who has never contributed financially or in any other way to the marriage. So, marriage is no guarantee that you will have someone that will be there for you.

        A sad world that we live in where men feel entitled to use and abuse women. I don’t remember the “good old days”, but they sound better than the “liberation” of today.

  13. 33
    SparklingEmerald

    I knew before I researched   this organization, that they were most likely a religious/conservative organization, but that doesn’t make what they are saying “wrong”.   I am hardly conservative, and I am a heathen, and I came to the sad conclusion as this video, long ago, based on my own experiences, observations, conversations with girlfriends sharing their experiences, etc .   Believe me,   I didn’t WANT to believe it, but eventually I resigned myself to it.   That old expression about cows and milk.   Well the cows collectively started giving the milk away very freely, and the bulls, well being bulls, stopped buying what most of us were giving away for free. (or nearly free)      Even for a girl who sets some boundaries, the “competition” is there, and most guys will walk if he can’t get 1st or 2nd date sex, because he knows he can get that from many other girls.   When I hear women say they “waited” until a 5th date to have sex, that depresses me that five dates is considered “waiting”.   I really HATE that many men, think that the 3 date rule is reasonable,     & conclude that a woman who won’t put out by date 3, is just “using” him to get the restaurant tour.   They think this, even if they have ZERO intention of forming a relationship with said woman, but feel like she “owes” him sex after he has “invested” 3 dates.   (Why they won’t consider making those first three dates, low cost or no cost, is a mystery to me)     I would like to know why getting naked & sweaty on 3 dates is a   reasonable time line, but having a conversation about where the relationship is headed (or if there is a relationship) is too soon on date 3, date 5, or months into a sexual relationship.
    The only minor point of disagreement I have with this video, is the claim that women, not “The Patriarchy”   have enforced the old double sexual standard against each other.     On the surface, that seems true, because much of the worst slut shaming does come from other women, HOWEVER, in the so called “good old days”, getting married was pretty much a woman’s only source of financial security (there was a time when women couldn’t even inherit or own property), and THAT system of forcing women into marriage through economic necessity WAS the work of the patriarchy.   So “the matriarchy” had to insure that the “competition” didn’t undercut them by giving it away to cheaply.  
    Please, don’t anyone take my opinion (which just happens to be mostly in agreement with this blog column and video) to be “slut shaming”.   I leave it to adults to make their own decisions regarding their sexuality, and expect the same in return.   I am not counting on any female collective meeting where we all agree to a “no sex until   . . . . ” rule.   If my sex life is affected by other people’s choices, so be it.   However, what makes me sad, is women who jump into bed, when they really aren’t feeling ready, as some sort of “relationship insurance”.   If a woman really IS the cool girl, and doesn’t mind putting out first and asking questions later, if she really IS ok, with FWB, ONS, being the booty call, etc., who am I to tell her to live differently ?   But it really makes me sad when I see women PLAY the cool girl, when really, they AREN’T cool with it.   And it make me sadder when they are playing it cool, thinking that putting out in a non-relationship, will somehow turn a non-relationship into a relationship.   And then it doesn’t.  

    1. 33.1
      Henriette

      @SE 33.   Hear, hear.   I agree with almost everything you wrote.    
        
      I, too, found the video depressing but not because I wished things to return to as they were in “the good old days.”   (I’ve never had casual sex but I’m tremendously grateful that The Pill allowed me to enjoy pregnancy-free intimacy with a handful of boyfriends over the decades.)    
        
      Dating has become confusing and it seems as though most people continuously feel hurt and used.   Many men think women are cold-hearted gold-diggers and many women are convinced that dudes are sex-crazed liars.     As a 44 year-old woman, I feel as though I have little value in a dating market that seems to revere youth, fertility and excitement; for the foreseeable future, I’ve taken a step away from the dating pool and am focusing on other endeavours (while avidly continuing to read this blog).  

    2. 33.2
      Joe

      Many men have a 3 date rule, just like many women have a “he pays” rule…

  14. 34
    fleurdl123

    e idea that other women who are willing/interested in having sex nhe first or second date are “competiton” and thus means you have to play on the same level is silly.   You are not competing for the same thing.   If you own a cute French restaurant but many people in your potential client-base adore pizza, are you going to close down your cafe, go to a bank and mortgage your house to build a pizzeria? Of course not.   Men love pizza and will eat it every chance they can–but tat isn’t the only thing they crave.   Let’s give them (and ourselves) some credit.

  15. 35
    SparkleTrail

    So much great discussion here!   I totally agree that relationships are now the commodity vs sex.   I agree that “no sex before monogamy” makes sense if you are looking for a relationship.   Jenn…I can relate to waiting until marriage because I did that at 23 for religious reasons.   But there were two things I didn’t know…I love sex and my husband had no problem waiting bc he wasn’t sexual at all. So I spent years very frustrated.    (I don’t know if its okay to post other blogs here, nor how to do it, but there’s a blog post called “why buying the cow was the mistake of my youth.”. It is a perfect example of why waiting until marriage can be tricky.   Sure, if he’s not a great lover, you can work on that, but if your libidos don’t match, that’s a big problem.   
      
    So…finding out how a courter is sexually is quite important to me.   I’d say I would want the monogamy/boyfriend promise as long as the sex was working because I have a lot of catching up to do.   I don’t think there’s a set time for this Or certain number of dates.   Every situation is so different!   Some men might be ready to commit right away.   I’m on my 40s and while there are men who just want sex, the men who want more, don’t waste time getting to monogamy or they are old fashioned and only dating one person at a time anyway.   
      
    But I also value my sexual freedom, because a lot of it depends on where I am in life, what I want.   I had been looking for a British penal and sought that out…both male And female.   One was coming to my area on business.   We had a lot of chemistry even in email.   He came on his trip and we had two nights together.   I slept with Him on the second night bc it was my freedom of choice to do so but I didn’t go into it thinking anything other than we only had this time and place and its impossible to have a relationship.   I think if you want to have sex early on, you have to know in your mind what it mean or couldn’t mean.   
    There’s really no magic formula because everyone is different and the combination of two different people are different.   Just don’t fool yourself in the process or use sex to try and snag someone.  

  16. 36
    Anna

    I don’t agree with Evan saying that women should make men wait for sex. Here’s why: in theory, it sounds good and seems like a great advice;   in the real world, it doesn’t work. Not from what I’ve seen or according to my life experience. And that is because sex sells, it rules and drives the world. We live in an oversexed society.
    Look at Beyoncé, for example: she’s already married. She posted a picture in a thong with a football jersey from a 20 year-old Texas quarterback. Not saying that they’re gonna be in a relationship… but she got his attention on Twitter, even though she already has a man, while many good girls who would love to date him are probably just being ignored ’cause they’re not Beyonce, they decided to go to school and be just ”plain and boring” instead of posing on Instagram barely naked.
    Also, while many good girls struggle with finding a boyfriend, I have a close friend who was still dating her ex last December when she started seeing this her new boyfriend. From one month to the other, she went from having pics with her ex on Facebook to having pics with the new guy. He has even met her family, she didn’t wait a New York second.  
    And the list goes on and on and the conclusion I get is: nice guys finish last and so do nice girls. If you don’t put out and act easy, you’ll be behind everybody else on the line. If you’re ”prude” and decide to wait, don’t even doubt for a second any of his co-workers that is way too ”nice”, any friend   of yours who meets the new guy and makes a bold compliment or the new girl-next-door to him that smiles to him while jogging in tiny booty gym shorts will get a date with him and make you a thing of the past.  
    And Evan is concerned about people accusing him of ”slut-shaming”? After all of this, do people really think you have to act virginal to get a guy because if you act easy men won’t like you and you’ll get judged? Please… I know very few, if any men who will buy the cow when they get the milk for free…  

    1. 36.1
      Henriette

      Anna, I think you’re emphasising the wrong thing.   It’s not about “making” men wait for sex.   Of course you can’t *make* anyone else do anything.    It’s about knowing yourself well enough to understand if you can truly handle casual sex; if you can, have sex as early with whomever you like.   However, many women think that they can but then are terribly hurt when a man doesn’t want a relationship with them; those women should wait until they have exclusive commitment before they have sex, not because they believe it will make a man do anything but because it’s what they themselves really want.  
        
      I’ve never had sex outside a relationship.   Certainly no man has “had” to wait for me.   If he didn’t want to wait until we were exclusive and I was ready, he was free to go.     I had no power to make him stay.   The only power I had was to ensure that I was comfortable with my own decisions and let the cards fall as they may.     And, by the way, there’s no guarantee that even if I had sex with a guy after the first date that he wouldn’t chase after the girl-next-door in her booty shorts.     Guys go for what they want whether or not they’re having sex with you.     Please stop making it sound as though Evan is advising women to try to manipulate men.

      1. 36.1.1
        SparklingEmerald

        Exactly Henriette – We can’t make a man do anything he doesn’t want to do.   The “waiting game” isn’t about trying to force a man into a relationship against his will.   It’s about determining if HE wants a relationship, and more importantly, does he want a relationship with YOU.   If he does, he’ll wait, AND, he will let you know his intentions.   If he doesn’t, he’ll bail fairly early on, with or without sex.   For most women, when a guy they wanted a relationship with bails, it hurts either way, but it hurts even more if they slept with him, not to mention they risked a disease and pregnancy from a man who bailed   (because no form of BC is 100% effective)

    2. 36.2
      Martha

      There is a difference between being in a relationship with someone for steady sex and being in a relationship with someone you are considering to potentially marry / see a s a life-time partner / you actually value.
      Put it this way: An average guy (looks & personality) needs to invest a great deal of energy and money (buying drinks, paying for initial dates, etc) to find a reasonable woman to have sex with.
        
      Suddenly Miss Easy rocks up. She may not be stellar but she is always available, drama free and is great in bed.
        
      Why wouldn’t a guy want to secure that? Investment is low, but great sex is steady.
        
      Doesn’t mean she’s marriage / life-time partner material but until someone better comes along, she’ll do just fine.
        
      There’s a difference between being easy-going and easy. The latter you do not want to be.

      1. 36.2.1
        julia

        So is drama free now a negative? I think you might not take her seriously but men love drama free women. She might be landing a boyfriend way before the demanding woman does.

        1. Martha

          Drama free is of course a positive but that’s generally essential to be even considered gf material.
            
          They key item is CONVENIENCE.
            
          The convenience of not having to find a new girl each night for some sex. The convenience of not having to spend unnecessary effort, time and money to find such a girl.
            
          Girl meets the low threshold, is always available (eg willing to rearrange her life for him) and lives in the same city. Therefore she is of low investment. Hence, she will suffice for now.
            

        2. Martha

          To add:
            
          Relationships are an investment.
            
          When a man sees a potential for a long-term LTR / marriage he will invest his precious time and effort in you; but, most importantly, he will go the extra mile.   Why would he do that for someone he is not too fussed about?
          Is he willing to do things for you that inconvenience him?
          If he is – you’ve got a keeper.

        3. julia

          @Martha
          “When a man sees a potential for a long-term LTR / marriage he will invest his precious time and effort in you; but, most importantly, he will go the extra mile.   Why would he do that for someone he is not too fussed about?
          Is he willing to do things for you that inconvenience him?If he is — you’ve got a keeper.”
            
          Well I know I got a keeper. As a relatively easy lay for my boyfriend and completely drama free. He knows I am a prize. He didn’t need to wait weeks to figure it out, from the moment he met me (literally he says the moment I opened the door and kissed him on the cheek he knew I was a prize.) I think all this talk is pretty insulting to men, we act like the are simple dogs. They are just as complex as we are, they want real connection and partnership as much as we do. They aren’t just chasing the easiest tale from place to place. I guess I am lucky that I’ve been a pretty good judge of men, even if I slept with them by what some might consider too early.
            
          You might see me as a low threshold but I am in the best relationship in my life and he lets me know every day he feels the same. I know Evan doesn’t slut shame, I would appreciate if his readers would show the same  courtesy.  
            

        4. Martha

          Great that you’ve got a fabulous boyfriend.
            
          However, it seems you missed the point I am trying to make. Where can you infer that I am shaming sluts or stating that men are simple creatures? Because I haven’t.
            
          Maybe my point will be clearer for you this time.
            
          Being drama free is great! Doesn’t mean a man will commit to you because of it. As you well stated – it’s not black and white.
            
          BUT there are men out there who are willing to simply be with a reasonable woman purely out of convenience until they find someone they are genuinely into.
          Low threshold by the way refers to the minimum qualities you need to posses to be even considered girlfriend material. That threshold increases (slightly, depending on each man) when considering someone as a life-time partner / wife.
            
          Him willing to do things for you that inconvenience him refers to him being willing to go the extra mile for you.
            
          Scenario 1: Imagine you are completely sick. It’s Saturday night. You both made plans to go out. You live 1 hour away from him.
          Is he willing to visit you despite you not feeling well?
          Or, if he decides to see friends instead, is he willing to bring you some soup before / after his outing so you will feel better?
          Or will he simply SMS you with a feel better soon?
            
          Scenario 2: Your mum needs to move some stuff urgently. She needs an extra hand during your BF’s favourite football match. Is he willing to cancel plans with his mates just so he can help out your mother?
          Scenario 3: You are having a really crappy day. Your boyfriend is going out with his mates. He knows how terrible your day has been. Does he stop by your place at some point and console you, give you a hug? Or does he ignore the fact you are having a crappy day?
            
          The below will make it even clearer:
          Guy A gives you a beautiful rose every day which he picks on his way home from work and tells you how much he loves you daily over the phone. But when you are sick he avoids you. He sends you a quick ‘hope you feel much better tomorrow’ when you are having a crappy day and he will find million of excuses to avoid helping your mother.
          Guy B doesn’t buy you roses every day or says I love you regularly. But when you are sick, he makes sure you get that cup of soup. He also drops by to give you a hug, talk to you when you are feeling down. And when your mother urgently needs assistance, he will make the extra effort.

  17. 37
    Marie

    It never ceases to amaze me every time Evan brings up this topic the amount of overthinking women who deluge on the blog to try and prove why he’s wrong, as if it’s some personal attack on your character or way of life.   The convoluted arguments offered here are staggering.   It’s really not that hard folks.   Stop overthinking and either just follow his advice or ignore it and continue what you are doing (which I’m assuming if you are seeking help,   so far it’s  been ineffective).   It took me  a measly 3 months from April to July to learn everything that Evan taught, apply it and find my husband.   We just picked out our baby names yesterday (no Evan not pregnant yet but planning).     I dated some 45 men simultaneously following what Evan said.   NO ONE had any problems with waiting for sex until I felt an emotional commitment.   When I did not I cut them lose.   IT’S NOT THAT HARD.   Just stop being so stubborn and try something new for a change if what you have been doing is not working.  

    1. 37.1
      Lynn

      Marie, brava. If I’m not careful I could be seriously in the running for Queen of Overthinking. (If Queens were elected!) On this topic overthinking didn’t work for me. Simplicity is working. Applying Evan’s guidelines is working. Underthinking it is working. I simply had to try something different. Voila. No more tying myself into knots. Discipline. Patience. And a sense of humor helps.  

    2. 37.2
      Marymary

      Marie
      Yay, congrats!
        It’s not about what we like or how things should be,   it’s about being effective. It’s not as if waiting a few weeks is that big a deal.   And it’s not just about waiting, it’s a breather to check each other out to see if you want the same thing.  

      1. 37.2.1
        Henriette

        M2 – great point, and glad you brought it up: “it’s a breather to check each other out.”    
          
        Many comments on this site are focused on when a guy is ready to become exclusive.   However, I give my heart and commitment carefully, and usually need to take a couple of months to decide if I want to open myself to that level of caring with any given man.   If I had sex before making that decision, I know it could cloud my judgement (not saying this is true of all women: but it is of me).  
          

  18. 39
    Sally

      If a woman want to continue dating while “waiting” to have sex, she has to show her level of interest in other very concrete ways. She has to go the extra mile to maintain his interest. But that’s not the message that most women get.
    Instead they get cheerleading pablum: “You’re worth it, make him work for it,” “you deserve his attention without the sex,” “if he really cares, he’ll be glad to wait.” Uh, no. The quality men women want most—successful, charming, good-looking—aren’t going to fall for this. The men with fewer options might, but then the message becomes “don’t settle, you ‘deserve’ better.”
    Unfortunately, from many “letters” on dating and relationship blogs, the women who want to “wait” are probably late-20s to mid-30s who have already gone the route of not “waiting” for sex and who have been burned.  Now  they want the men to “wait.” Okay, fair enough. But let’s get over the idea that such women are going to land the quality guy they want who will wait for sex just because she “deserves” it. To echo Moxie, no, ladies, you’re going to have to work for it, not the other way around.
    But I also want to address Katz’s post, because while the video may “affirm everything that [he’s] ever written about sex and gender” he completely misses the main points. The video is a “no duh” kind of video. Of it, Katz says  In short, women teach men how to treat them  and advises “women” to stop offering easy sex if they want commitment. Which, while a generally true statement, misses the point completely.
    As the video points out, men seek out sex without commitment because they can. But in the sexual/relationship marketplace, women are competitors, not allies. So while Katz advises individual women to adopt a commitment-before-sex strategy he fails to see that this would only be successful as long as a lot—a vast majority—of women agree to adopt the strategy. And because women are competitors, they’re not going to do this.
    Katz tells women  that you must have men make a greater investment in you as individuals before having sex.  Aside from the lapse in not also suggesting that she should make more of an investment in  him  before sex, he fails to note that men don’t  have  to make such investment because there’s always another woman out that that won’t demand it. And until  society  changes, that won’t change. Actions by a small number of individual women aren’t going to cut it.
    Sex is a part of finding out if a couple is compatible. Katz wants to make it a transaction: invest in me and you’ll get sex. Sorry, I call bullshit on these “rules” he promulgates. There are no hard-and-fast rules that are going to work.
    The bottom line is when dating, have sex when you’re comfortable having sex. If that means waiting, accept that even some great men may not wait. If that means sex early on, accept that some men aren’t going to call back or commit.
    Frankly, all this emphasis and angst over “when should we have sex” ignore other perhaps more important aspects of relationship building: are your personalities compatible, do you have fun and laugh a lot together, are you compatible in your “dating styles” (can you enjoy just hanging out or are fancy dates a must)?
    Sex is just one factor on a continuum of factors that go into building a relationship; if the other parts aren’t there, sex isn’t going to be a magic bullet. If the other parts are there, then sex is just a natural part of being together.
    There are no guarantees…

    1. 39.1
      Lynn

      I suggest taking the “have sex when you’re ready” guideline in tandem with Evan’s other advice. Especially what’s helped for me in dating is the concept of mirroring, of not doing anything, and not taking anything personally. You gotta go read up to get his meaning. Applying these principles is making a stunning difference in my dating life. The men self identify pretty quickly as   potential good fits or not especially with the ‘sex within exclusive relationship’ policy. Dating for me is fun again after I’d started to feel very disillusioned. It hasn’t taken long, a few weeks.  

    2. 39.2
      Lily

      A couple of thoughts:

      1. There are lots of us dating in our 50s who were in long-term marriages. We are just not wired for making out and stopping before having sex because for most of our adult lives, we were married and had sex whenever we wanted. It makes it difficult for us to follow Evan’s advice.

      2. My take on Evan’s approach has been to be VERY selective about the online dating process. I have specific questions that I ask on the first few phone calls. I only date articulate men with graduate degrees who are in good (not perfect) shape, who have, like me, been married before and have older children. I ask sexual questions of them after explaining that I came out of a sexless marriage and then I explain that while I am a woman who very much enjoys sex, I like to get to know a man and be exclusive with him before sleeping with him.
      My previous boyfriend I had amazing sex on the second date. We took our dating profiles down while in bed together. We dated for two years and he wanted to marry me.
      My current boyfriend took his profile down after our first date without saying anything to me. When I discovered his profile was down, I asked him about it, and he said, “I have everything I need right now but I don’t want you to feel obligated to take yours down.” He did not pressure me for sex and was a complete gentleman but we could both tell by the kissing that we would be very compatible. I took my profile down before the third date during which we had mind-blowing, exclusive sex. He is sweet and treats me very well, and the sex is amazing, and he is completely appreciative of me in that way. I did the Evan thing but with a well written, thorough profile that completely expresses my personality, and thorough phone screening, I am now in an exclusive relationship by date three. I know that it is unlikely I will be with him for the rest of my life, but at least I am with someone with whom I am highly compatible. He holds my hand and pays for dates and is interesting company.

      People in our 50s are so clearly defined… The boat guy is unlikely to switch to golf! The man with a spreadsheet in his head will forever have it in his head. Not many men are attracted to a thin, smart girl like me with an artsy bent and a big, wild sex drive, but online, if I work really hard at it, I can find him. I hope I have. Thanks, Evan, for the great advice and this excellent forum.

  19. 40
    Karmic Equation

    The Patriarchy has conditioned women to tie sex to relationships. This serves the patriarchy well because women tend to be faithful under this kind of conditioning. Just as the “average” penis size was a result of the choices our ancestresses made (I read an article about this), so is the fact that most women want monogamy (my opinion only, YMMV). Our male ancestors tended to choose faithful women (or seemingly faithful women) to bear their children.

    Hence when women’s “hormones” rage, because when she wants sex, from societal programming she automatically feels that a relationship with the man she lusts for is “the right thing” no matter how bad or incompatible this lusted-after guy may be.

    The fact that most women would rather control their hormones rather than their need for a relationship, serves to prove how successful the patriarchy has been in controlling female sexuality from religious messaging, societal double standards, all the way through to horror movies. (Ever notice how the horniest teens are the first to be gruesomely murdered in horror movies?)

    If you’re a smart, strong, financially successful woman, with a full life and good friends, already have had children, you only really need a man for sex. And if you don’t like sex, you don’t need a man at all. — This is the most feminist thing you will ever see me write.

    1. 40.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      “The Patriarchy”. Right. The vast conspiracy that all of us guys are talking about to condition you. As I said at least a half-dozen times in this post: no one is controlling your sexuality but YOU. If YOU can have sex without emotion or expectation, go ahead. But don’t “prude shame” women who want a measure of commitment before having sex. That’s not the patriarchy. That’s fucking common sense.

      1. 40.1.1
        Lynn

        Evan this is starting to remind me of why I left my regional women’s movement years ago! There seemed to be a requirement to dislike men. I like men. I have 3 sons. Now 2 grandsons. There is *nothing* to be gained by any of us doing the “us and them” thing.  
        I can’t have sex without emotion or expectation. Tried. Doesn’t happen. Done trying. I cannot stress enough how powerful, liberated, and happy I feel with a clear “sexclusive” boundary.  

      2. 40.1.2
        Karmic Equation

        Evan, I love men as individuals. As a collective that runs our society. Not so much. A man as an individual wouldn’t have the power to oppress women as a gender (no rights to vote way back when; can’t be heads of most religions other than the marginalized ones even now, yada yada). Men’s “group think” created The Patriarchy not you or any one man on this blog individually. So please don’t take it personally. I think you and most of the men I’ve ever met in my life are awesome people. The fact that none of them are in politics or heads of religious orders helps of course 🙂

        As to prude shaming. I did not do that in my post. I never brought judgment of character into my post. Starthrower did though. The righteous indignation should be aimed at her not me. To say that “good character” = controlling one’s hormones implies that it is “bad charactter” to not do so. That would be slut shaming via prude-propping.

        In any case, as I was writing my post, I was remembering the ranting of one of the commenters about blowing men when they’re all jerks or some such thing, in which you yourself chastised her on that poor attitude.

        Those women…I always assume, rightly or wrongly…that most women who read this blog are all three S’s (smart, strong, successful) — were whom I was thinking of when I wrote SSS women may not need men at all if they don’t enjoy sex.

        I have NEVER said I have sex without emotions. That is a categorization by women (and now you? Et tu, Brute?) here who interpret NSA sex to mean unemotional sex with strangers. That isn’t what I do. I qualify a man for sex the same way most women qualify a man for a relationship. The only difference is I don’t get a label for my efforts. But labels don’t mean that much to me.

        Other than societal/religious judgment, what difference is there between jumping into a commitment at date 3 with a stranger or jumping into bed at date 3 with a stranger? He’s too much of a stranger at date 3 to bed, but not too much of a stranger to have a relationship with? Really? If a relationship with a woman is the prize, then shouldn’t the man have to demonstrate more than simply a willingness to commit to one to have one with said woman?

        To put sex behind the wall of a relationship makes sex the prize, not the commitment.

        FTR, I’m NOT advocating most women do what I do (sex ahead of relationship). I’m just saying the unintended message of making relationships “so easy” devalues relationships and elevates sex instead. The opposite of the intended outcome.

      3. 40.1.3
        Henriette

        Oh, c’mon, Evan.   We know that when you tell your wife you’re off to enjoy beer, pizza & philosophy with the guys, you’re actually attending Meetings of the Patriarchy, brainstorming how to keep us women where we belong…

      4. 40.1.4
        starthrower68

        I see I made an old comment on here that was way too harsh.   I think the feminist movement has pretty much toned down any patriarchal society, and some women would go so far as to say that not only is it no longer a patriarchal society but men are now stuck in an extended adolescence.   So I would imagine we are somewhere in between.   I am the mother of two sons, one engage to be married.   I would hope his fiance would not look at him and say, to hell with you, who needs you?   We need men and women as both have unique and different gifts and talents that we bring to the table.   

        I should brace myself for Rusty to take umbrage….  

        1. RustyLH

          Hold on while I load the cannon. 😉

    2. 40.2
      starthrower68

      Some women prefer to control their hormones because they believe that’s a sign of good character.    Good character is not “sexy” however.   Doing what one wants based on how one feels in the moment is.

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