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You may have heard of Samantha Brick by now. Her article for the Daily Mail about how women hate her for her beauty has gone viral.
Brick, 41, explains that she’s been given free drinks her whole life because she’s hot.
The downside? Not one girlfriend has ever asked her to be a bridesmaid. Envious bosses have forced her out of jobs. Friendships are nearly impossible to maintain.
Therapist Marisa Peer, author of self-help guide Ultimate Confidence, says that women have always measured themselves against each other by their looks rather than achievements.
“It’s hard when everyone resents you for your looks,” says Brick. Men think “what’s the point, she’s out of my league” and don’t ask you out. And women don’t want to hang out with someone more attractive than they are…I find that older women are the most hostile to beautiful women – perhaps because they feel their own bloom fading.”
At the end of the article, she confesses that, at 41, she’s one of the few women “welcoming the decline of my looks.” She writes “I can’t wait for the wrinkles and the grey hair that will help me blend into the background.”
We can certainly debate as to whether Ms. Brick is attractive enough to warrant this conversation. The real question, however, is why the claws have come out with such glee, trying to tear her down. I think it’s a few things.
First of all, we don’t like anyone who brags about herself, even if there’s cause for bragging.
Second, we don’t like anyone who brags about herself without proper cause.
Third, we don’t like anyone who seems too happy or self-satisfied – as she claims to be in her marriage to an older man in the French countryside.
Fourth, there’s always a bit of schadenfreude in the world. We root against the guy who went to Harvard in the movie. We like to see poor lottery winners, not rich ones. We want to take down whomever’s in power – Microsoft, the government, our boss – just so they get their comeuppance.
Finally, I think that people are jealous and lashing out anonymously on the Internet is the best way to vent.
Did Samantha Brick come off as a little smug and clueless for someone who is marginally attractive? Absolutely.
But I don’t think she was lying. I just think that people didn’t want to concede that she was telling the truth.
Read the article and see multiple photos of Ms. Brick here. And click here to read my article on the woes of attractive women called “Pity the Pretty” here.
david says
I saw her on UK TV — to be honest, I think she might be a touch mentally ill, on the Spectrum — SOMETHING in that arena –she was sooooooooo absolutely clueless about WHY people were angry and that it was only BECAUSE “she was beautiful” (not because she was boastful, smug, clueless, tactless, a braggart — no, the only reason was she was stunning, she insisted). Do I think she got free drinks in her early – mid 20’s and men threw themselves at her feet — most likely. In fact, I think all the stories she’s referencing DID happen, as Evan suspects, but somehow in her mind they happened 4 days ago and not 20 years ago.
I’ve had some dealing with people who are mentally ill, but not so ill they have to be “put away: — they are very functional and lucid — but they have the look this woman did on TV — of being in her own world.
MissNova says
Haha. I completely agree, David. Plus, I just looked her up and I’m really not seeing what she’s seeing. lol
Rosa says
Of course what she has to say rings true, most of the time, generally. It is hard for pretty women – being pressured by men and women alike. But Brick is not particularly pretty – I have more stunning, beautiful friends and life is not easy for anyone. Some unattractive women have incredible intelligence – which the masses will never recognise. Life is unfair but the journey within leads to greatness.
Dagaz says
hm… interesting topic. i’ve read all three articles and i might say i had similar issues (with men, with female bosses).
but.
what i’ve reilized with time: there are women and there are hens (nothing snobbish, just silly calling, by one man’s specification).
hens will be obsessed with their looks, with other opinions about their looks, with undercover games at work about their looks etc etc. they will care this vibe around them everywhere and THEREFORE they will get these unpleasant situations over and over again. don’t blame a mirror.
Women won’t care. because they initially KNOW what they worth – not by their looks, because they have much more to offer and much more to be interested about in themselves.
will this vibe change the environment attitude? absolutely.
valleyforgelady says
Women who are confident in themselves are very supportive of other women! I am very heterosexual but I really love women too. When I see beauty in other women…of any age….I acknowledge it…since I know the effort that goes into being beautiful. Women tell me all the time I look great and I appreciate their compliments. This poor lady must have serious Mom issues. This is not a healthy person..poor thing! This is newsworthy because it is not healthy and strange. 24 hour new is dragging the bottom of the bird cage for news.
sthrnphoenix says
I was a bit stunned by the whole thing. No judgement on beauty at all. I know some women can be really hateful to other women that they are jealous of, whether for her looks, husband, job, social position, or many other things. The same is true of some men. But a couple of things came to mind over this: 1) I though I left most of that type of behavior behind when I graduated from high school. Most of the women I work with and socialize with don’t behave that way in general. Or I’m just oblivious to it. 2) It immediately struck me that she seemed socially inept. Regardless of how men might treat her, it’s socially inappropriate to draw attention to that, especially if that man is married or important in some ways to the women around her, so it seemed obvious most of the problems she experiences with other women are because she’s socially undesirable. I watched the BBC interview with her as well, and her awkwardness was obvious. She just doesn’t know how to appropriately interact with other people. It’s not something to hate her for, but it would keep me from asking her to be my bridesmaid. And I bet talking about how hot the male CEO of the company thinks she is would get her fired by her immediate superior, male or female.
Ashley says
As I thought of this, I have had guys tell me that I am pretty with the intention of sleeping with me. I wonder if she has been around the block a few times and guys tell her she is pretty to sleep with her, and then flirts with everything that has a penis.
Leesa says
can somebody please give me the internet link to the BBC interview with her? (if there is one)
Ileana says
I am personally stunned by this whole beauty-debate.
I think it is really funny how a moderatly ok looking person (Ms. Brick) gets called ugly by most people , while Pipa Middelton (who looks average and slightly too old for her age) is seen as the essence of beauty. Then we are told that the likes of Giselle Bündchen, Heidi Klum and co. are among the most beutiful women in the world, altough they tend to look a bit like men and are the result of plastic surgery… but we are ok with that. No problems there. I fail to discover where the problem in our society lies.
Jenny Ravelo says
Don’t want to sound rude but there is an objective measure of beauty called golden ratio, if we were to measure her face it would be below average. As cliche as it sounds, things such as vibes, personality and status come into play when considering someone’s attractiveness. It’s a fact. Considering that she comes off as arrogant in her interviews and article, it shouldn’t be hard to believe that people think she’s uglier than she actually is.
You’re not the only one calling Bundchen manly, but status of being a supermodel plays a big part in her appeal, and so is the case with Klum. I also don’t know where you get the plastic surgery bit from. None of them have been proved to have any and it doesn’t look like they do.
Leesa says
i just read the article. i’ve watched her explain herself in other video interviews since about what she said in the paper. it seems like, as usual, the media and others have taken her out of context and in the interview i’m watching at the moment, they aren’t giving her a chance to explain herself and they are putting words into her mouth. and they are very aggressive towards her. they are not letting her speak. in saying that, i do think she’s deluded about the fact that people are responding to her badly because she’s pretty. i think the reason people are responding to her badly is because of the way the media is presenting her – like the people who are interviewing her in this video i’m watching (and having lived in the UK for some years, the media there is terribly notorious at doing things like this – look what they did to princess diana).
but she really isn’t that pretty at 41. in fact, i couldn’t believe that was the women saying she was so pretty when i googled her. i can see that maybe when she was 20, she would have been pretty enough. but what i did notice is this: i think, as somebody else has mentioned above, i think that she’s probably been pretty enough to have sex with most of her life (but most guys aren’t that picky), but more importantly, it’s just my opinion that the reason she gets attention is that guys see she’s vulnerable and probably an easy lay if they say the right things to her. this would not be obvious to her but is obvious to people around her.
i saw a young girl in town the other day. she’s young, she’s got a pretty enough face, got long blonde hair and is a little chubby. but she was wearing really revealing clothes. she probably thinks people are looking at her because she’s pretty. when in fact, i was looking at her thinking that that she’s young and pretty enough to have sex with, and her clothing suggests she’s trying very hard to attract a guy (and guys could be thinking that she’s gagging for it) and therefore quite vulnerable and open to advances. maybe healthy guys wouldn’t be interested in somebody like this, women maybe see her as pathetic and yes, a threat to their men because of her combination of reasonable looks and vulnerability through clothing and body language.
amy says
I guess you can’t say “she’s not that pretty,” without sounding like a critical bi-atch. But the truth is I wish she were better looking because her article is about that, and she had some good points. But it would be like someone writing an article about how fit they were without being fit.
Zippy says
She may be only marginally attractive by world standards, but by English standards she’s pretty hot.
Ruby says
Ironically, I thought the woman who interviewed her on the BBC, Ruth Langsford, was better looking, in fact gorgeous, and she’s 52! From what I’ve read of Brick, her journalism career, consists of articles with the titles, “Why my husband says he’ll divorce me if I get fat’, ‘I’ll always be that fat girl’, ‘I married a man-child’, ‘How to survive as a French wife”, so she likes to stir up controversy.
helene says
I don’t think this woman’s problem is her looks – its her diva-ish attitude that is causing people to dislike her. I have to say i don’t pity the pretty at all – I pity the ugly. As someone who is not stunning looking but certainly a bit above average in looks myself, I think it is hugely advantageous and deserves no pity at all! Good looking people, when the situation requires it, can get all sorts of problems solved by a winning smile – getting to board planes late, getting your car fixed quicker, doing well at interviews, getting served first at bars… I have done all these things myself and have been aware that if I was short, fat and unattractive I would not have managed to achieve such a good outcome. Complaining about being too pretty is self indulgent nonsense, akin to complaining about the trial of being rich. Sure everything has its downside but its insulting to suggest that the problems of the pretty are of any importance compared to the serious disadvantages suffered by those who are not blessed with good looks.
Isabella says
What’s absurd about this whole thing is that the benefits of being beautiful far outweigh all the inconveniences of it, and everyone knows that. So it’s really a moot point.
Leesa says
hmmm, well i dunno if i totally agree isabella and helene. i personally have found that none of the advantages of being pretty include finding a decent guy to spend my life with. so from that point of view, it does seriously suck to be pretty (if what you really want in life is a stable, loving, long term relationship – after all, i think love is so important for one’s soul). just take a look at elle macpherson’s love life. i wish attractiveness was directly correlated with the quality of male one can attract. yes, it’s easy to get jobs (if i’m being interviewed by a guy) (almost impossible if i’m interviewed by women), get my car fixed earlier and yes, have alot of opportunities in life (but i’m over-educated as well so i do have the credentials for those opportunities). i’m 40 and one of my male friends told me that my problem is that i’m too hot and most decent men are probably too afraid to approach me for fear of rejection. one of my close male friends who is a womaniser who tried to hit on me (and after i rejected him, we became friends) told me that his approach is just to go up and hit on the hot women that most guys won’t go near. so, as in evan’s article – “pitty the pretty”, i can relate to the fact that no decent guy approaches me and yet all the creepy, sleezy womanisers have a go. it’s horrible and it gets me down. i can relate to samantha from the point of view that as you go through life being quite attractive, it does become a huge issue (even though i never wanted it to be) for which i had to adapt to for many years in my teens to my early 30s. like i automatically act dumb and non-threatening around other women. having had to do it since high school when i was outcast by other women, the behaviour is ingrained in me now. so i can imagine that a (potentially) very pretty young samantha would have had to adapt to her environment in her teens and 20s. and i can see how she probably carries some of the residual mentality in her 40s (from just living it for so many years) even though, men now aren’t looking at her the way they have for most of her life, now that she’s old (i notice guys don’t look at me as much anymore). but i still do think that samantha’s problem is that she appears vulnerable and would appear an easy bonk to men, even at her age now and i think that’s got to do with what david (1) said about her being in her own world (being self-absorbed).
Kimberly says
Beauty has….and always will be…in the eye of the beholder. Charisma…however is something you can never obtain unless you were blessed enough to be born with it….put an average woman with charisma in a room with a beautiful woman without charisma….watch what happens..Brick, unfortunately…appears to possess little of either…what she DOES understand…is that bad publicity is still good publicity!!
Jennifer says
Yes I agree with Isabella’s point about the benefits far outweighing the inconveniences. That’s why everyone is so upset. Study after study has shown that attractive people have an easier time getting jobs and in every day life than your average joe not to mention some one less than average. It’s like a rich person complaining about having to install a security system on his house so his Picasso doesn’t get stolen. Oh..boo hoo.
annie says
When I read the blog I pictured this undiscovered beauty – my goodness, the disappointment of seeing what she actually looks like! I think her ego hits you in the face first when she walks around a corner. Forgive me, but to all the standards that I have been made to live up to, this is NOT my picture of a beautiful woman. In my personal and professional world, beauty is of small count (the dating game remaining the same), since the lives of others are at stake. I never think of myself as beautiful, although I have been told this outrightly by many a patient as well as friends. I like to remain of normal weight (not underweight – it intimidates patients) and I remain understated and user-friendly in all circumstances. I never over-dress or over-make-up or over-jewel and although I owe it to my patients to be professional, I never over-dress, no matter what the occasion. My personality speaks for itself – I don’t have to show off to be known as kind, accepting, professional, non-judgemental, funny, etc. No matter how beautiful i might be – I am the sweetheart of my family and friends. I get to be a brides-maid and asked to speak at several occasions, both personally and professionally. I guess the bottom line is that i don’t threaten anyone. And that is not my intention. I know who I am and where i’m going. Those who are threatened – sorry guys! But for the course of my life, I know that i am a beautiful woman with many qualities that men go after, but I don’t flaunt it. It shows through my self-conduction. A sensitive man will pick it up and nurture it, and so it has happened thorugh my reading your blog and your book, religiously.
A beautiful woman pleases her guy by the eye, but she substantiates that with classy refraining from “beauty tactics” and meeting him somewhere in-between the beauty- and the intellectual grey-area.
Evan, you have helped me get back the love of my life, by walking away and letting him take action. He responded by coming back and “following me” as in one of your blogs, and we have been happy ever after. Talking looks – he is not your looker, and not your Mr. romantic either, but I compliment his life and we love each other, and I don’t give a sh*t what he looks like and what people say about the difference in looks. The Beauty and the Beast. Good. It works for us.
Helen says
I think Samantha’s story is just sad. She is attractive, but delusional if she believes it is on the basis of these looks that people avoid her. We women don’t avoid our attractive or beautiful sisters. She’s just milking stereotypes of catfights, which are far less common than many are willing to acknowledge. More likely, she’s avoided because something in her personality is repulsive. Unless she acknowledges that, and works to fix it, she will never attain the friendships she wants.
helene, Isabella, and Leesa all have it partly right. If you’re attractive but not drop-dead gorgeous, you have a ton of advantages in every walk of life. Even average women like myself can attain these advantages by dressing up, wearing makeup, and smiling.
Leesa, I believe you when you say that being drop-dead gorgeous (which Samantha is not) will probably cause more problems, because your good looks are what others will focus on at first more than your other attributes. Not that others would hate you for it, but they may believe that YOU wouldn’t accept THEM. So why don’t you be the one to approach others, Evan’s earlier advice notwithstanding? 😉 Why wait for these good guys to approach you if they aren’t? Be your natural self: maybe no makeup, but a pleasant smile and accepting attitude. The good guys would be all over you.
But I don’t believe your statement that if a woman interviewed you, she would reject you. Again, that’s buying into stereotypes. I have interviewed men and women of all range of looks. The looks don’t matter at all as long as they’re not sloppy, which gives the impression that they don’t care about the job. I focus on their credentials and their ability to answer questions intelligently. Ultimately, you need the best person for the job, and looks hardly determine that unless the job involves marketing or modeling.
Gina says
I agree that pretty women are treated more favorably by men and often envied by women, as I have seen both scenarios. I have also known pretty women who downplayed their looks so as not to attract too much attention from men. I have also known women who thought of themselves as being much better looking than they actually were–personally, I do not think that Ms Brick is as hot as she thinks she is– I llived in Prague and found Czech women to be among some of the most beautiful women in the world. I have never been jealous of my beautiful girlfriends (I am average looking), nor have I ever resented the special treatment or attention they would receive from men. Nor do I feel threatened introducing them to my boyfriend. They are very down to earth, and how they look has never been an issue in our relationship.
AnnieC says
She spoke the truth 🙂 Good for her
Jen says
This is a great topic and I’ve enjoyed reading all of the posts. The bottom line is that SHE is the root cause of her own demise. She’s the one creating the media frenzy and in my opinion – is asking for the bashing. Regardless of how pretty or not she is. I would bet that if she were “normal” and had a normal personality that she’d have real friendships and be in a wedding or two.
Katarina Phang says
Gosh, much ado about nothing! I’m quite pretty so I’ve been told but no, it’s not an issue. I’m happy with the way I look, most of it/the time anyway. I don’t have the “problems” she has and no, I don’t have guys pay for my stuff out of the blue either but at least both men and women find me genuine, caring, warm and non-threatening. My female friends love me as much as my male friends.
I think it’s her personality, not her looks. And yeah she’s full of herself. She’s attractive but not that attractive.
Erinlee says
While I don’t completely disagree with the points she made, she really isn’t what I had in mind when I tried to envision this woman so beautiful it has made her life more difficult. No matter how good looking you are, if you walk into a room giving off the air that you think you’re better than everyone else, no one is going to like you. You can be gorgoues, and if you are humble, friendly and not socially awkward, even those who would like to dispise you for your looks will end up liking you. She’s so conceited that after all of these years she has herself convinced it’s her outer beauty when really it’s her inner beauty and social awkwardness that keep people from wanting to be close to her. Basically, she needs to get over herself, but I don’t think that’s bound to happen.
Mia says
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the average, even unattractive people I know, have usually gotten married or gotten a ltr without a problem. Here is why: they are not attractive enough for players or guys without serious intentions to go after them for sex or a fling. The only thing that’s going to win guys over to them is their personality, which means guys who interact with them are very genuine and sincere. By contrast, as a very attractive woman, I have to constantly deal with men who just want to have sex. I’m very down to earth and nerdy and sweet, but I’ve been told that with my exotic looks I’m intimidatingly hot and that a lot of nice guys won’t even approach me, even though I’m just looking for an average looking but sweet, quirky guy who likes to be with me! It’s very frustrating. Average, dumpy women get all the guys and don’t understand how good they have it.
Jadafisk says
That’s not true. Average women are definitely propositioned for flings. Unattractive women have to deal with self esteem issues because they deal with stretches where fling offers are all that there seem to be. Now exceedingly attractive women are more likely to be hooked into relationships with men who see them as trophies and waste everybody’s time before trading the woman out for a newer model (npi), someone who actually fits the ideal personality they’ve projected onto a hot girl, or even someone less flashy who they choose when they’ve become less interested in the opinions of friends, colleagues and family members. Also, men who want flings are going to be more likely to come to an average/unattractive woman “straighter.” With a beautiful one, players are more likely to go for the long game and disguise their true intentions.
Petra says
Like Helene, Isabella en Jennifer I am convinced that being pretty had much more advantages than disadvantages, in personal life and in the workaday world. I am so sick of people complaining how difficult it is to be beautiful.
People, especially women, who are very unattractive have to work so much harder to find friends, relationships, work or even just simple appreciation from their own parents…. On the relationship market men can compensate for this somewhat by gaining status and money (male medical doctors always seem to be popular, no matter what they look like) but for women this is so much harder.
And that is just for the garden-variety level unattractiveness. The type you can work at with make up, a good hairdo, taking up exercise.
But there are people out there who really suffer because of their looks. People with bad skin diseases, who have burn marks, facial disfigurements like a serious under- or overbite, or an asymmetrical face because of Goldenhar syndrome or a similar disease – these people don’t have an easy life. If any of of those unhappy beauties would walk a day in their shoes they would never complain again. After just 24 hours of being yelled at, made fun off, being spat in the face etc. while doing nothing but minding their own business, they would be cured for once and for all of feeling – and saying – that being beautiful is difficult. They would beg to have their old ‘problem’ back.
People who claim that being attractive is a burden have no idea what truly physically unattractive people go trough. I find it really offensive, especially towards people who were born with serous birth defects. These people have to undergo strings of operations just hoping to become more ‘ normal’, less visible and be spared cruel remarks they face almost every day will while walking to school or doing errands.
As for Samantha Bricks newspaper article, it would have been believable if it was accompanied by photographs of a really beautiful woman…… but now it just seemed laughable because she clearly overestimates her own level of attractiveness. While I am the first to admit she is a lot prettier than I am, she is not nearly beautiful enough to cause jealous feelings in me.
The point she was trying to make would have been a lot more believable if she actually was drop-dread gorgeous. Now it just seemed farfetched – I think we all have much prettier colleagues, classmates – and even much prettier friends than mrs. Brick.
Sure, some woman are envious when it comes to looks, but the vast majority of women are not like that and most attractive women have plenty of friends. But in order to have a friend, you have to be a friend – and that may be just the thing that mrs. Brick has overlooked. Woman who have little or no female friends and blame their looks might want to take a better look at their own behaviour towards other women.
I once read or heard somewhere that a plain girl said that people assume that when you are plain on the outside you most be plain on the inside, too. You could fill in ugly for plain and then fill in beautiful. If being beautiful is a problem, it’s a problem that most of us would be standing in line for. So I have zero sympathy for real of perceived people who claim being beautiful is though. Try being really ugly – now THAT is tough.
Steve says
No jealousy here, I’m not a woman. She looks pretty average to me and I find a much wider range of looks attractive than most American do. I think this is a case of being “a legend in your own mind”. I think the model in Evan’s stock photo for his post is at least twice as interesting.
Peter says
Very pretty women are avoided by most men.
M says
Poor woman.
Much better to be homely and invisible to men.
Or to be like virtually every man on the planet, walk around in public your entire life and no one, perhaps even in your entire life, takes a moment’s notice of your looks.
I would give anything to have her lot.
Helen says
#25: “Average, dumpy women get all the guys…”
Well, you certainly got that part right. 😉
Seriously, though, people? It’s like I said in the other post: stop racing to occupy the “victim” role. Petra 27 was totally right. Whine whine whine, I’m not to blame at all, it’s always other people’s fault… That’s what makes Ms Brick’s statements so distasteful, and yet some of that is going on right here with a few (obviously not all) posters.
You really think your gorgeousness prevents you from being with good men? You really think we dumpy frumpies have it easier? If so, then the solution is simple. One: get out of victim mentality. Two: make it a point not to wear makeup or dress beautifully; your natural good looks should carry the day if they’re really that amazing. (If you can’t bring yourself to do this even if dumpy looks are supposed to get guys, then acknowledge that it’s your own desire to be gorgeous, rather than others’ fault, that you’re not being approached. Or acknowledge that being dumpy doesn’t, in fact, save the day.) Three: be the first to talk with men whom you deem “good,” rather than waiting for them to talk with you. You may be surprised how glad they are to converse with you.
There are very few circumstances in which you have no power at all to change your situation. For certain, claiming that you’re less fortunate than others rarely gets you anywhere.
Peter says
Very interesting discussion. I was, in my early years, terrified of approaching beautiful women and mythologized them. Now, I wouldn’t hesitate. I don’t have the distortion operating in my head that they are so superior to me. What I’m finding interesting, though, is that most attractive women I run into are married. Maybe this is characteristic of my New England area, but I can with a high degree of probability, when I look at a woman, if she’s married. Not only is she usually more attractive overall, she has a kind of polish, confidence, and poise. She probably has more resources in a partnership to pursue wellness, and this is supported often by spouses. Many studies show that couples are fairly well matched by appearance. Men would prefer having beautiful partners. This has a great deal of social capital for them. More confident males – not necessarily players – approach beautiful women. Others think they’re out of their league. The fact is there are a lot of attractive married men and women, and they found each other, approached each other, because this is the kind of person they wanted, looks wise or otherwise.
Vicki says
It’s interesting to read the comments here and elsewhere about how Samantha Brick really isn’t “all that pretty.” Yet, she certainly has confidence in herself and, excuse me but isn’t that the image all sorts of life and relationship coaches as well as umpteen women’s mags constant advise women to project? Because, there’s nothing more sexy or attractive than a confident woman. So, here’s a woman who certainly is attractive (in all the proper ways, which also includes a “pleasing appearance and pretty smile”) whether you consider her beautiful or not, and the best we can do is comment on how she’s “not all that pretty.”
Yes, it’s true that attractive people have more advantages in some things but it’s also true that they are treated harshly by those who are insecure and feel threatened by them. Since most of us, when we look back on our life, truly do consider friendships and relationships as more important than status and material things, there is a huge truth to what she says. If people are judgmental, act cruel to or jealous of people who are attractive solely on their looks, then that speaks of a societal dysfunction that is no different than when people are judgmental or act cruel to the unattractive, heavy, disabled or those who are deemed different.
Is the fact that no one is jealous of those people – the unattractive, heavy, disabled or those who are deemed different – the real issue here?
Jenny Ravelo says
True confident people do not make articles about how everyone hates them because they’re pretty, just like truly sexy women do not go out to the streets wearing industrial amounts of makeup and very little clothing. When you believe in what you are you don’t need to advertise it, when you do it’s because you’re trying to convince others and yourself of your value.
The common trait of hated people is not their looks, but the fact that they come off as arrogant.
Paragon says
I would concur – Brick’s problem isn’t that she’s beautiful(which – and yes, I’ll say it – she isn’t, imo), but rather that she comes across as a delusional narcissist.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1213212/The-ego-epidemic-more-inflated-sense-fabulousness.html#ixzz19HTMlvJU
And as for women who struggle find a happy medium in confidence – they need only be precisely confident enough to
cue the approach of a mutually receptive male(which, imo, is the optimal level of confidence a woman need exhibit).
Helen says
Vicki, your point about confidence is at the center of this. Yes, confident people are attractive. Ms Brick is not confident. An arrogant individual is not necessarily confident; often, it’s the opposite.
You can be beautiful without being obnoxious about it, without putting other people down, without attributing jealousy or meanness to them. Ms Brick was waging an all-out catfight against other women – and the ironic thing is that SHE is claiming to be the victim. In fact, no woman (including myself) would feel the slightest bit jealous of her looks, so we find her claims ludicrous.
You know who the most confident people are? Those who are happy with themselves and who do not compare themselves with other people. Ms Brick seems desperate to compare herself with others. To a lesser extent, those posting here who say, “I’m so beautiful, but all the plain women get the men” are likewise comparing themselves and lacking in confidence.
Peter says
It’s probably self-evident that ultimately someone would want to be born better looking than not. An attractive individual can be modest – or not- about his or her appearance. To me nothing’s more repellent than a conceited individual, no matter how they look. An woman I know – probably one who would not rate high on the “looks” scale – is energetic, engaging, super friendly, and these make her very attractive. A narcissistic woman I know – unfortunately a psychotherapist – is so exceedingly bound to her appearance that it makes her seem grotesque. She at times referred to a couple of her friends as “inbetweenies”, in describing some aspect of their lives and perhaps lack of success. It’s a pretty reductionistic way of looking at life and a smug celebration of her own success in the “looks lottery”. In the end, character wins the day.
Leesa says
i think what i’m about to say will resonate with what vicki (33) said above in her second paragraph. whether it be because you are too fat/ulgy/disabled or too beautiful, the resultant feelings and suffering for the ulgy or beautiful person is still the same. for either reason, the unattrative or attractive human being is sometimes hard pressed to experience sincere kindness, love, affection, intimacy or acceptance from the opposite sex or their peers. also, i suffer from not being able to express my deep need to love another human being within the context of an intimate relationship. i think (at least it’s the case for me) that both the ugly and the beautiful suffer at a soul level as a result of not being able to receive and express intimate love. and if you’re beautiful, you also have to contend with being objectified and used. my last boyfriend, for example, constantly raved about how “hot” i was and he loved having sex with me. in the end, i found out he was only using me for sex and lying to me. i was devistated. i guess, since i hadn’t experienced affection and an ability to express my love and intimacy to another human being for so long, and i believed that i was lovable and that i had alot of love to give, i just could not imagine that he would just be using me for his ego. i cried every day for 8.5 months – i didn’t know that depth of suffering was possible. in the end, i feel that my suffering is as deep as the ugly woman’s. then i go for years on end without men taking an interest in me (except for the sleeze bags). i see this as being no different from the ugly women going years on end without men taking an interest in them – there is the same suffering for both of us. when i think about approaching a guy i might be interested in (as helen (19) suggests), suddenly i get a feeling of having a fear of being rejected. and evan teaches us not to chase guys because we look desperate and needy.
if i consider what mrs. brick says about being discriminated against in job type situations … and i consider that i myself have easily gotten jobs when i’ve been interviewed by men, and have rarely gotten the job when i’ve been interviewed by women … i can see that it may well not have been because of mrs. bricks or my physical appearance for this practical observation. in my case, and in hers, it could be that academically, the women see us as not the perfect match for the position, whereas the men see us as a decent match for the position … or for other reasons like the women interviewers determine that our personality isn’t right for the position or we won’t be a good fit with the rest of the staff, whereas the men think we’ll be ok or evem good at the job.
i’d love to see what the people say who have worked with mrs. brick and get their side of the story. these days, if people were to react adversely to me, i’d actually ask them why, instead of perceiving (as mrs. brick) has done that the reason people are adverse to her is because she’s hot. but then, that would require the adversely reactive person to be honest as to why i peeve them off. often, i’m not even sure why i react a certain way to a person since it can be so automatic. so expecting others to be so in touch with themselves so as to give me a more accurate perspective of the situation might be a stretch.
Androgynous says
To all those “beautiful” women who have posted that yes, life is indeed not a bed of roses being beautiful – if I gave you a magic wand right now and poof ! you could trade your way above average looks for average to below average looks, would you do it ? Didn’t think so…enough said !
Ruby says
Vicki #33
Is Samantha Brick projecting “confidence” or is she merely trying to be provocative, as seems to be her career bent? And what about her being blonde (her most attractive feature, IMO)? My attractive, blonde-haired friends have always complained about being treated differently. One brown-haired friend notices a difference in male interest when she has dyed her hair blonde. My blonde friends tell me that others assume they are less intelligent, though.
Helen says
Leesa 37, I sympathize… but for your own well-being, you will have to take yourself and your looks out of the picture, to be able to see things realistically.
I assume you want a good guy for an LTR. A good guy will treat everyone well, not just some people; and a bad guy will treat everyone poorly, not just some people. If you find a guy who treats you like gold but treats others like crap, it’s really only a matter of time before he starts treating you like crap too. Likewise, if you find a guy who is kind to others, he would treat you well, too, and is a keeper.
So don’t take it so personally. Certainly don’t cry every day for 8 months over an unkind person. Do you really think he only treated you badly because you’re beautiful? More likely, if he dates a plain woman next, he’ll make her life miserable by talking about his hot ex. He’ll treat everyone that way. You lose nothing by having him gone. Next time, be more discriminating. Observe which men treat others well, not just you.
If there were a kind way to say “Get over yourself,” that is what I would say here with the best of intentions and no meanness intended, because sometimes that’s what we need to get over tough circumstances. Most of the time, it’s not about us – which can be an embarrassment but also a relief.
Nicole says
So I’d love to know, while some men and women do like to put their partners down, don’t most people who date/sleep with you probably tell you that you are hot/handsome/beautiful/cute? I mean, using that metric, everyone should probably think that they are the bee’s knees.
It’s funny how often people will offer up proof of their hotness/youth the fact that someone who wanted to or was having sex with them told them they were hot.
I mean seriously, does anyone say “yeah, you are pretty ugly, let’s do it!” If I want someone to do something for me, I’m going to butter him up. Only people with low EQs don’t understand that.
I’m just saying, anyone who wants something from you is going to say the right things, esp. if they want a lot with little true investment, and I’m not surprised that people who eat up that kind of superficial and external validation (like Samantha Brick) would come to the conclusion that it is b/c they are exquisite (and also get blindsided by the discovery that it was all lies). Instead, I think that users, male and female can tell what people will eagerly eat that stuff up and they lay it on thick when they think it will pay off. Not to say that people don’t sincerely give compliments, but there is a kind of person who needs to think/believe that they are getting more guys or girls, and that they are hotter, more beautiful, or more handsome than everyone else, rather than being satisfied in finding a few strong, healthy, long-term relationships.
So I don’t think Samantha Brick is much to right home about, but since she needs that validation, I’d guess that she is probably pretty flirty and probably takes every compliment lobbed at her, no matter how insincere, as confirmation of the idea that she won the genetic lottery.
Not to mention that fact that while she isn’t that great looking, her basic descriptors are frequently listed as an ideal that a a lot of people think everyone covets or that people will list as undeniable proof of their beauty (blond, white, blue eyes, tall)…
It’s interesting reading here how people, well into middle-age, still think it’s more important for a bunch of strangers to find them attractive than to find one good person to settle down with.
Nicole says
“write” not “right”…ugh, typing too fast.
Heather says
Personally, I think that her attitude knocked her down a scale or two as far as her outward appearance goes. A woman with confidence expresses it, yes but she also has the common sense not to brag about it like it’s honestly news to anyone.
I’d also like to say, I’d friend her, but I would also give her a much needed reality check. Real friends tell it as it is, if she could not handle what her friends had to say, then she should surround herself with fakes. They work well.
Sorry to ramble, but I think any woman who has confidence, and doesn’t brag about it is beautiful. Because she accepts herself fully, inner beauty and outer. You don’t have to be a size 4 to be beautiful. Also, I must say I pity beautiful women. They are targeted by such vile people…it’s awful. The girls who disappear are always so beautiful, it’s sad =( Guess it makes me happy to be an ugly duckling of sorts.
henriette says
As usual, I agree with Nicole (I wish we lived in the same city; we’d be great friends!). I’ve seen that most tall, slim, busty blonde women can have unremarkable features but are often ogled and told they’re beautiful because they possess these key traits that are fetishised by a large number of men.
Also, most of us “smart, nice girls” were raised to listen carefully to negative criticism but brush off compliments as somehow less valid. We can be very hard on ourselves and tend to dwell on our failings. I think that the fact Samantha Brick seems to do the opposite feels very foreign to many of us and while I’m certainly not jealous of her looks, part of me is envious of her ability to believe and internalise every good thing she hears about herself.
I went through a period of being very attractive (super in shape, lots of great clothes, etc) followed by an illness that had me put on lots of weight (from meds) and I looked as bad as I felt. So, I’ve lived both sides of this coin. While there were certainly some drawbacks to being attractive they were far, far better than the drawbacks of not being attractive.
Nicole says
@Heather, all kinds of girls disappear. Only “pretty” white girls get media attention. There is a difference.
“Pretty” women are not targeted for violence more b/c of their looks. If that was true, small children and old women would not disappear or be assaulted.
If you aren’t photogenic (or white), then your disappearance just won’t make the national news, that’s all.
I’ve never known anyone to be “too pretty” for friends. Most people who say that have poor EQ and aren’t very nice and that is why they have no friends. Pretty people with nice personalities have HUGE advantages in life.
Bad personalities can make a “pretty” person pretty ugly and tiresome, although younger people sometimes flock to them. Most people, once they come into their own, won’t tolerate a bad personality and a pretty face.
Margo says
No comment about the article because I didn’t read it. I just went right to the pictures and I have to say that this woman isn’t pretty. I look a LOT better than that.
Ellen says
someone wrote: “By contrast, as a very attractive woman, I have to constantly deal with men who just want to have sex. I’m very down to earth and nerdy and sweet, but I’ve been told that with my exotic looks I’m intimidatingly hot and that a lot of nice guys won’t even approach me, even though I’m just looking for an average looking but sweet, quirky guy who likes to be with me!”
I’ve had regular guys approach me ’cause I’m approachable, friendly, smile, but it took me til age 30 to figure that out- how to be approachable without coming off as “easy”.
But what she writes about is real- there ARE guys who only want to score with you for their ego. You feel like prey sometimes. But thanks to Evan’s advice I held out for a guy who could prove he was into ME, not my looks, body.
I am told I am pretty or beautiful, though 59! I really didn’t get the “you’re beautiful” til I was over 50 though, not sure why. (Took a while for the baby fat to melt away and reveal high cheekbones? And I admit to plastic surgery and injections. I do it subtly though). And I am known for my nice figure, great legs, so double whammy. Sometimes, depending on what I’m wearing I draw open stares from men. Blows me away (at my age), but I’m enjoying it while it lasts…
I was technically prettier maybe when younger, but not fully aware of it, too fixated on the little things that were wrong (I bit my nails for one thing) so not vain or smug or anything. I’ve never had trouble finding/keeping friends of either gender my whole life, so it all boils down to your spirit and EQ imo…..Still I occasionally attracted hostile attention from jealous females. They envied me more for my education I think though, knew I would work my way up from secretary pretty quickly whilst they would not…..
Still, if your objective is to pick up men in a bar you WANT to be accompanied by at least one bombshell so as to attract attention. lol
Another recent study linked being very attractive to being seen as less capable, which I think is true, so that’s a serious disadvantage, n’cest pas? Fortunately, I have a librarian vibe going, look intelligent, not like some cheerleader, so have avoided that I think. And I was awkward looking early on, so never thought about just getting by on my looks. I’m over-educated if anything….
No, if given the chance to repeat my life I would still want to be attractive, but wish an older woman, my mother, SOMEBODY had prepared me for all of the above I mention.
Finally, as one who has been to the UK twice, I can tell you that English women aren’t known for their beauty in general, so maybe Samantha sticks out a little. But no, I would classify her as merely attractive, a bit pretty, but not gorgeous. Jacqueline Bisset is gorgeous. Kate Beckinsale is gorgeous. She should google both to understand that very rare category of women. lmsao!
Heather says
I agree with Helene. I have a real problem with her diva attitude, “Oh, pity me, because I’m pretty and people hate me for it.”
Sorry Ms. Brick but I have real problems. Like a Mom with stage 3 cancer that’s come out of remission. So please, pardon me for not giving a crap that you’re pretty and people hate you for it. I’ve got better things to be upset about. Like my Mom maybe not being here, this time next year.
This woman makes me embarrassed to be a woman. Not all of us give a rat’s backside what our co-workers look like. I care about results, teamwork, etc.
Can y’all pass me the barf bag please?
mia says
I think perhaps that there ARE women, who despite failing to be ‘conventionally’ attractive, they have a magnetic appeal that draws men to them. I’ve seen this with various girlfriends of mine. One was a large girl and another was a redhead. They both had this special exuberance that drew men to them every time we went out. Photos definitely didn’t capture the magnetism these girls had. Perhaps Samantha Brick is one of these women. However, if you fail to make ANY meaningful friendships over the years, as I’ve witnessed with some women (and men) around me, it generally means that they are incredibly shallow,self-centred or a similar trait. Beauty is rarely a hindrance to making friends in my experience. It might intimidate some people, yes, but to have NO close friends at all? Hmm. Something is definitely off with Mrs. Brick, methinks.
sarahbrick says
really? you don’t think samantha brick was lying when she said a neighbor didn’t wave back because she was envious of her beauty? did you see the picture?
Margo says
On second thought, I believe I will comment on this article. Like the author ascertains, discrimination of beautiful women does exist. I have had women play “musical chairs” to make sure I didn’t sit next to a single man they were interested in at various events. I have had women not wanting me to even be at events where eligible men that they were interested in were.
I have had women resent me and attempt to attack my intelligence. They have betrayed me, talked behind my back, and have been hostile towards me. This has all been because of my appearance. Therefore, I do agree with the author’s claims that this phenomen does exist. However, I also agree with Evan that the author could be described as only marginally pretty.
Karl R says
Margo said: (#51)
“Like the author ascertains, discrimination of beautiful women does exist. I have had women play ‘musical chairs’ to make sure I didn’t sit next to a single man they were interested in at various events.”
That’s your idea of discrimination?
When I first started dating my fiancée, I tried to ensure that she’d end up sitting near me instead of another man (whom I knew was interested in dating her).
It’s called competition, not discrimination.
That man looks like munchkin from the Wizard of Oz. I definitely have him beat in the looks department. And I still went out of my way to stack the deck in my favor.
Margo said: (#51)
“I have had women resent me and attempt to attack my intelligence. They have betrayed me, talked behind my back, and have been hostile towards me. This has all been because of my appearance.”
How do you know that it’s all because of your appearance? Do you read their minds? Do they tell you to your face that they betrayed you because they were jealous of your looks?
I’ve had women gossip about me behind my back. I’m pretty sure it’s not because I’m a beautiful woman. In one case, I’d pissed off a friend of theirs. In another case, they told scandalous gossip about everyone in the workplace. (If they didn’t know anything scandalous, they made stuff up.)
I’ve had men and women express hostility toward me, and I’ve seen no evidence that my appearance was the cause of it.
So what makes you so certain that you’re the target of hostility and gossip because you’re attractive? Most of us experience the exact same things without being beautiful (or even being women).
Nadia says
Ok. Seriously? I’m trying to write something–anything–that doesn’t come out sounding sarcastic. If Samantha Brick is seriously being passed up for being a bridesmaid or struggling with maintaining friendships with other women, I feel like I can confidently say it has nothing to do with her beauty, and everything to do with her personality. Perhaps it’s just a whole helluva lot easier to blame it on something outside of her control. Women may turn a little green from envy toward an incredibly hot woman, but if she’s genuine and kind, we’re quick to get over it.
Margo says
Karl says:”“Like the author ascertains, discrimination of beautiful women does exist. I have had women play ‘musical chairs’ to make sure I didn’t sit next to a single man they were interested in at various events.”
“That’s your idea of discrimination?
When I first started dating my fiancée, I tried to ensure that she’d end up sitting near me instead of another man (whom I knew was interested in dating her).
It’s called competition, not discrimination.”
Actually I wouldn’t call that particular occurence discrimination. It was a woman reacting to a situation in which she felt threatened by me. Instead of behaving in a mature manner, she became desperate and proceeded to play games to achieve her objective.
Karl says: “How do you know that it’s all because of your appearance? Do you read their minds? Do they tell you to your face that they betrayed you because they were jealous of your looks?”
Some things are obvious, Karl.
Karl says: “That man looks like munchkin from the Wizard of Oz. I definitely have him beat in the looks department. And I still went out of my way to stack the deck in my favor.”
That’s because you don’t have enough confidence to let a woman you’re interested in sit where she chooses. I think it’s pathetic. I’m willing to bet you’re not tall, dark, manly, and handsome. You are lacking in one of those departments. That’s no insult to you, but the reality is that men who have these attributes don’t need to play “musical chairs”.
Karl says: “So what makes you so certain that you’re the target of hostility and gossip because you’re attractive? Most of us experience the exact same things without being beautiful (or even being women).”
It’s called process of elimination, and experience. Trust me.
Joe says
@ Leesa: maybe you find it hard to attract good men because they find it infuriating to read e-mails with no capitalization…
Helen says
Margo, some of your statements are beginning to sound like Samantha Brick’s.
“I have had women resent me and attempt to attack my intelligence. They have betrayed me, talked behind my back, and have been hostile towards me. This has all been because of my appearance.”
Margo, EVERYONE has had these experiences inflicted upon them by mean girls. Including Karl R, who is not a beautiful woman. Including me – also not a beautiful woman. Including… well, everyone. Very few of us who have suffered the slings and arrows of misfortunate cats are beautiful. But I guess some of us try to justify it by their looks, whereas others just think, “Spiteful cats,” and move on with their lives.
Karl R says
Margo said: (#54)
“That’s because you don’t have enough confidence to let a woman you’re interested in sit where she chooses. I think it’s pathetic. I’m willing to bet you’re not tall, dark, manly, and handsome. You are lacking in one of those departments. That’s no insult to you,”
You’re claiming that I lack confidence.
You think my actions are pathetic.
You’d bet that I’m not tall, dark, manly and handsome.
I’m not sure where/how you were raised, but most people would say that was six insults.
If you can toss out six insults in three consecutive sentences, and then you express your belief that it’s “no insult,” then I believe I’ve determined the source of people’s animosity toward you.
You’re insulting.
You insult people. They don’t like it. They demonstrate animosity toward you. I see no evidence that your looks are to blame.
Margo said: (#51)
“Like the author ascertains, discrimination of beautiful women does exist. I have had women play ‘musical chairs’ to make sure I didn’t sit next to a single man they were interested in at various events.”
Margo said: (#54)
“Actually I wouldn’t call that particular occurence discrimination.”
Then why did you use it as your first example of discrimination?
Margo said: (#54)
“Some things are obvious, Karl.”
“It’s called process of elimination, and experience. Trust me.”
It seems obvious to me that you’re capable of insulting someone, without recognizing it after the fact. You haven’t eliminated that as a probable cause for the animosity. And if that was at all representative of your communication style, I would expect you to experience hostility on a regular basis.
Since you seem incapable of recognizing that the statement was insulting, I would say that people have a credible reason for criticizing your intelligence (as you stated in #51), at least in the area of personal communication.
Furthermore, given your inability to see your words as insulting, I’m not inclined to trust your perception of the situation.
You may be utterly convinced that you experience animosity, discrimination and attacks on your intelligence because you’re attractive. But you’re doing a really poor job of convincing others that your appearance is the cause.
Helen says
Karl R: while I really like your rejoinder (it’s pointed without being directly insulting), my guess is that Margo is more subtle in real life than she is on the internet. When we hide behind anonymity, we tend to be more blunt in our statements.
I think the real situation is simpler than that: that she is simply experiencing what everyone else experiences, but not recognizing it as such. Same with Samantha Brick. Rather than realizing that unfair treatment, competition, and backtalk are universal experiences, she assumes that she is the only one suffering them, and then finds some explanation for them (her looks).
I think such people need to step back and take themselves out of the picture for a moment. When they realize that a lot of what they experience in life isn’t unique to them, but experienced by nearly everyone, yes, they may be embarrassed at first for elevating themselves so. But ultimately they should feel relief and sympathy with others.
Margo says
Helen…If you truly believe that beautiful women are not resented by other not-so-beautiful women, then you must be from the planet Jupiter and quite unaware of what transpires here on earth.
Margo says
Sorry, that should read: …resenting by beautiful women just because they ARE beautiful.
Karl R says
Helen said: (#58)
“my guess is that Margo is more subtle in real life”
A subtle insult is still insulting.
Granted, if she’d been more subtle in insulting me (or you) then I would have a harder time making my point.
Helen said: (#58)
“I think the real situation is simpler than that: that she is simply experiencing what everyone else experiences, but not recognizing it as such.”
Margo said: (#59)
“Helen…If you truly believe that beautiful women are not resented by other not-so-beautiful women, just because they ARE beautiful, then you must be from the planet Jupiter and quite unaware of what transpires here on earth.”
Helen, I think Margo just proved my point. It appears that Margo’s knee-jerk reaction to people who disagree with her is to respond with insults.
I’m sure she’s experiencing far more animosity than you or I do. It has nothing to do with her looks, but she’s right about the animosity part.
Helen says
Karl R: Heh heh, yeah, I concede; she just proved your point. 😀
Margo says
This will be my last comment to Karl on the subject: Karl, there was nothing insulting in my post to you. You have become defensive because I pointed out that a man who behaves the way you did in pursuit of a woman, as was outlined in your earlier post, lacks confidence and looks. The truth does hurt. Sorry, but don’t shoot the messenger.
justme says
And Karl R for the WIN! Nicely done.
Sienna says
Ellen, I hope I look as wonderful as you say you feel & look at 59! I am nearly 40 and I think I finally understand the power and problems that come with beauty. I do feel more beautiful now than at 18. But I think a certain sexiness comes with age as well…
An interesting shift happened to me a few years ago when I temporarily ‘lost’ my looks due to an intensive surgery on my face due to cancer. Women were so much more friendly to me while I was temporarily disfigured and healing. It also made me look inwardly as to whether people would still see me as a beautiful person inside despite the outside. I always felt that the inside mattered much more, but it was indeed a life changing experience. Alas, we all, regardless of our looks will get old and lose them, so I work on being lovely inside every day.
Margo says
Methinks Helen, Karl and Justme just proved the author’s point. None of you probably look like much, judging from the comments that have triggered you. Again, sorry.
Now let me go kiss the mirror. 😉 Of course, there is a downside which is the subject of the article, but honestly, I enjoy the upside much better.
Paragon says
“You have become defensive because I pointed out that a man who behaves the way you did in pursuit of a woman, as was outlined in your earlier post, lacks confidence and looks.”
Non sequitur – its called sexual competition.
Confidence has never been about conceding opportunities to rivals, but rather an expectation of favorable outcomes.
Margo says
Paragon, you’re misunderstanding me. Yes, I’m aware of sexual competion among men. And, yes, confident men can and do play such games, but the take-a-way is they don’t have to unless they’re in competition with their equals. The confident man would smugly bide his time while his target of interest sits next to the loser at dinner, then approach her afterward. Comprehendo?
Saint Stephen says
@Margo, I’ve read through the comments and must say you were the one who initiated ad hominem into this thread. Karl has always been good in maintaining the required civility of a debate even when occasion don’t demand for it. Secondly, Helen rose to your defense in her post (#58) and got swiftly rewarded for it with more insults. And in just three consecutive comments you’ve dished out insults to three different characters on a row (Namely, Karl R, Helen and Justme). Proving Karl’s point. If someone is verbally abusive, people won’t enjoy spending time around that person… not withstanding how physically attractive you think you are.
Margo says
Paragon, I do desire to be fair here, so perhaps I did not give the competitive nature of men the weight it deserves. Having said that though, I get the sense that you didn’t understand what I was trying to convey to Karl: The difference between confidence and desperation. If man wants a woman who is sitting next to another man that looks like “Rumplestiltskin” (as Karl posted) does he really need to play musical chairs??
Helen says
Thanks, Stephen. 🙂 I think you hit the nail on the head.
Karl R says
Margo, (#63)
Are you trying to claim that you’re not being insulting because your statements are true?
Are you also going to claim that you didn’t insult Helen (#59) because she is actually from Jupiter?
To everyone who is convinced that people dislike you because you’re attractive, smart, wealthy, honest, educated, successful or moral:
You’re mistaken.
There is the rare individual who might dislike you for that reason, but if you think more than two people dislike you, you’re deluding yourself about the cause.
People won’t dislike you for being smart, but they will dislike you if you’re a smartass. They won’t dislike you for having morals, but they will dislike you if you’re judgmental of their morals. They won’t dislike you for being wealthy, but they will dislike you if you’re arrogant.
My little sister believes that people dislike her because she’s honest, and “some people can’t handle the truth.” I would say people dislike her because she’s tactless.
For example, she will tell a person that they’ve gained weight and then be surprised when the person takes offense. Even if the person has gained weight, her statement is still rude. Most people have access to a scale. They have access to mirrors. They can tell whether their pants are getting tighter. They do not require my sister’s “assistance” to monitor their weight.
In my little sister’s case, it goes a bit further. If the person politely responds that they recently checked their weight on a scale and they’ve lost five pounds, my sister will persist. To my little sister her opinion is “the truth” and the reference to the scale is evidence that the other person is “in denial.” My little sister will keep insisting that the other person is wrong until they accept “the truth.”
My little sister experiences every form of negative behavior that Margo does. People avoid her, because she insults them. They won’t seat her next to their friends at events, because they don’t want to inflict her on anyone they like. They exclude her from parties, because she insults the other guests and starts arguements.
Margo said: (#66)
“Methinks Helen, Karl and Justme just proved the author’s point. None of you probably look like much, judging from the comments that have triggered you.”
This example illustrates Margo’s line of thought:
1. Helen, Justme and I disagreed with Margo. Therefore, she believes we don’t “look like much.” (She hasn’t actually seen what any of us look like, but she’s commenting on our appearance anyway.)
2. Since Margo believes we are unattractive, this is “the truth,” (even though beauty is subjective, and it’s unlikely that there is universal agreement on our attractiveness).
3. Since Margo is stating “the truth,” she believes that she’s not being insulting.
4. From Margo’s point of view, we are all reacting negatively to her because she’s attractive and we’re not (even though none of us have seen what she looks like. Since beauty is subjective, and because people lie on the internet, it’s unlikely that we have taken her word that she’s attractive.)
As an outside observer, it’s easy to see the flaws in Margo’s reasoning (and my little sister’s). But many of us personally end up in the same position that she has, and it’s easy for us to draw the same conclusions she has, because we lack perspective on the situation.
I don’t find my smartass comments to be hurtful. I think they’re funny. So it’s easy to overlook how offensive someone else may find them. And it doesn’t matter whether I believe my comment was inoffensive. It doesn’t matter that I intended it to be inoffensive. If someone takes offense at my comment, it was offensive to them. And if enough people take offense at my comments, they will all treat me like any other offensive person.
This applies to almost everyone.
It’s easy to point out how Samantha Brick (and Margo) are being socially obtuse. It’s harder to apply the same lesson to our own lives.
But if you can think of more than two people who dislike you, this applies to as much as it does to Samantha Brick and Margo. It’s not your positive traits that are generating a negative response.
Ellen says
this is for Sienna 65:
gosh, I’m sorry for your cancer troubles but hope corrective plastic surgery can restore your beauty.If you decide to take that route.At59.I’ve seen the restorative power of time and cell rejuvenation.
One problem with beauty possibly is you are more loathe to part with it so aging is a bit more painful?
The older I get the broader I expand beauty’s definition though. On my list is to tell overwe ight *co-worker Katrina how beautiful she is since her clueless husband.,who has trouble telling her he loves her , probably doesn’t tell her. Her face is luminous….And I probably put on makeup for six days a week for the reasons you describe:
you are often invisible to people. but esp. to men unless enhanced.
*i only mention cause the aver. man wdnt see past her weight.
Also occasionally those bags under the eyes you see on date one slowly disappear and i n three more dates and burgeoning love you suddenly see him as ruggedly handsome.
So beauty aint static or subject to instant judgment. It defies that. For that reason I think society will eventually abandon our youth obsession.
Finally re my past assertive and mayb seemingly bragging comments about my appearance let me say in my defense that I find the internet freeing and also never having been a believer in false modesty tend to tell it like it is. Or think it is!LOL I hope I have inspired others in my life to be as into truth and honesty as I’ve become but realize our bare, raw emotions here will rub others the wrong way occasionally.Keep in mind folks as you perceive slights here that their same comments delivered in person, over a beer, say,would be better received,forgiven.
Lets give each other as much of the benefit of the doubt as we can muster so this blog doesnt devolve into a politically correct ,ineffective ,superficial one.
Nonetheless, unkindness online=the same karma as unkindness in real time face to face.
PSsorry for Samsung typos
Sienna says
Ellen: So sweet of you to respond… Happy to say that immediately following the cancer removal a plastic surgeon did the repair work. I looked like myself again within a few months. But the scars are internal and external which both have now faded 4 yrs later. People say they don’t notice unless I point it out…. Modern medicine is amazing.
I found your comment on wearing makeup to enhance yourself to be quite true and not to be invisible to men to be true. As well as the comment of how someone can become handsome after you get to know them. My 2 major relationships were complete opposites in looks. One was balding/overweight within a few years of being together and other was a international model. The later became quite ugly to me the more I got to know him….
Margo says
Karl, I see you have decided to run with your theory. Don’t.
I wasn’t verybally abusive. Those of you who think I was would do well to explore your defense mechanisms.
Let’s say that I was. That still does not disprove the phenomon/fact that beautiful women are often resented/discriminated agaist based solely on their looks.
Helen says
Margo: Karl R didn’t have a theory. He merely pointed out the flaws in your line of reasoning.
Speaking of proving or disproving: the burden of proof is upon you to show “that beautiful women are often resented/discriminated against based solely on their looks.” Why? Because you state that it is a phenomenon or fact. Beliefs are not facts just because someone believes them; there has to be some scientific evidence beyond anecdotes.
Now, we have Hamermesh’s excellent laboratory studies on the societal benefits enjoyed by attractive people. But no such studies exist, to my knowledge, on discrimination against the beautiful. If you find one such study, we would be glad to acknowledge it. Otherwise, we are more inclined to write off your (and Ms Brick’s) claims as unfounded.
I am not swayed by anecdotes, pity parties, or insults. I respect scientific evidence (as, I imagine, Karl and several others here do as well).
Selena says
Is there scientific evidence on developing a dislike to someone without ever knowing what they look like? Perhaps it should be studied. 😉
Karl R says
Margo said: (#75)
“I wasn’t verybally abusive.”
Is verbal abuse the only form of insult you’re aware of? If so, it lends support to my observation that you insult people without even being aware that you’re insulting them.
Margo said: (#75)
“Let’s say that I was. That still does not disprove the phenomon/fact that beautiful women are often resented/discriminated agaist based solely on their looks.”
You believe it’s a fact, but you have not offered any convincing evidence to support your belief.
The only evidence you’ve offered is your own anecdotal experience that you have experienced resentment and discrimination. However, you have not demonstrated that people treat you worse than they treat other people. Furthermore, you have not ruled out other possible reasons that people might resent you or treat you badly.
At this point, we have at least three possible explanations:
1. People treat you worse than other women because you’re attractive.
2. People treat you as badly as they treat other women.
3. People treat you worse than other women, because you insult them.
You believe in #1. However you haven’t demonstrated that you’re treated worse than others. You haven’t demonstrated that there is a correlation between poor treatment and beauty, because your sample size (1 person) is too small for an adequate correlation. Furthermore, correlation doesn’t prove causation.
There are psychological studies which demonstrate #2. People notice bad treatment toward themselves more than they notice bad treatment towards others. That doesn’t prove that this is true for your case, but we have no evidence which rules it out either.
There are also numerous psychological studies which demonstrate #3. If you treat someone badly, they will treat you badly in return. Furthermore, we have been able to observe your own posts on this forum, which have been repeatedly insulting to multiple individuals. In addition, you have repeatedly stated that you’re not insulting people, which increases the likelihood that you could have overlooked this explanation. Again, that doesn’t quite prove that this is true for your case, but is currently the explanation which is best supported by the evidence.
Instead of insulting everyone who disagrees with you, why don’t you find some scientific research that supports your explanation?
Helen says
Selena: I would say that, beyond the first moments of acquaintance, appearances have very little to do with whether one likes or dislikes someone else.
Helen says
Karl R: sounds like you’re saying in 78 what I said in 76, except that you’re taking it a step further by carrying out your own deductive experiment using Margo as the subject. 🙂
And who said coming from Jupiter was an insult? It’s pretty nice there. You’d like it. Cold as heck, and the gravity is pretty hard to deal with, but it makes everything on earth seem so warm and light…
Margo says
Oh, those pesky spelling errors. Perhaps I need to employ spellcheck.
Anyway…Karl…for the last time, I don’t habitually treat people badly, even when they deserve it. Yes…beautiful people are discriminated against and resented solely because of their looks; it happens all the time. Helen…concerning Karl, it was/is a theory. Not a good one, but a theory just the same.
I’m sure there are probably studies that prove that what Samantha and I am saying on the subject in question is true. However, if I want to waste my time searching for them and posting them here for people who are engaging in denial (among other defense mechanisms) because the subject makes them uncomfortable, is another story.
AnnieC says
I have witnessed and experienced horrible behaviour from jealous women. My worst experiences however, have been watching how women treat other beautiful women.
I will say however, that this behaviour usually stops by the mid-20’s.
Women can be threatened by confident attractive women and try and take them down a peg or two. Completely nice, lovely women who end up preferring the company of men because they cannot tolerate the bitchiness of other women.
In my college years, I just happened to have several friends who were really really beautiful. I remain their only friend that they are still in contact with during this time, and each of them ended up with more male friends than female.
It was due to jealousy, and nastiness.
This is why if I see a woman who is attractive, or has something particularly lovely about her(Like lovely hair), I will say something simple, such as “You have such lovely hair”…smile then most likely move on.
I have no idea if this is why Samantha brick dealt with issues, too hard to tell from the article, but it does happen. Women can be their own worse enemies, especially when they are young and insecure.
Selena says
@ Helen #79
Very much agree. I’ve experienced my initial estimation of someone’s attractiveness go both up and down as their personality is revealed. As I come to care for them, or find them unpleasant to be around.
Helen says
Margo 81: “I’m sure there are probably studies that prove that what Samantha and I am saying on the subject in question is true. However, if I want to waste my time searching for them and posting them here for people who are engaging in denial (among other defense mechanisms) because the subject makes them uncomfortable, is another story.”
Honey, that is weak indeed.
You want to know why it makes people “uncomfortable”? Because you and the silly Ms Brick are accusing a whole group of people of bad behavior when you have absolutely no evidence for it beyond anecdotes, which Karl among others already pointed out are worthless. You say, “Trust me.” “Some things are just obvious.” By that same “logic,” any of us could accuse a group of people for bad behavior because we felt slighted. We wouldn’t need to furnish any proof that they were deliberately targeting us. Nor would we consider whether we ourselves played any role in the slight. No, we’re right, they’re wrong, end of story.
Taken to the extreme, it’s precisely this type of attitude – accusation combined with self-victimization – that leads to all sorts of divisions among groups of people in society – even divisions WITHIN groups. I’m not just talking about beauty here.
So yes, we would like to see your proof. If you cannot be bothered to “waste time” proving your claim, then also don’t waste your time complaining that women treat you badly because of your beauty.
Michelle says
I have known many, many beautiful women throughout my time on this Earth, and don’t remember anyone ever complaining that they were treated badly because they were beautiful. How self absorbed is that? If a woman has been treated badly, beautiful or not, it’s either because, as others have pointed out, young girls are just nasty in general, or, as others have pointed out, the ‘beautiful’ person in question isn’t so beautiful inside. Whatever energy vibration we give out is what we get back. This also smacks of ‘projection’ talking.
Karl R says
Margo said: (#81)
“I’m sure there are probably studies that prove that what Samantha and I am saying on the subject in question is true.”
You’re sure there are probably studies. There’s a contradiction in terms.
You don’t know the name of any studies.
You don’t know who performed any studies.
You can’t describe any studies.
You haven’t read any studies.
You haven’t seen any studies.
You won’t even search for some studies.
But you’re sure that there are probably studies which completely support your position.
I don’t think I could be less convincing than that if I tried.
Margo said: (#81)
“beautiful people are discriminated against and resented solely because of their looks; it happens all the time.”
AnnieC said: (#82)
“My worst experiences however, have been watching how women treat other beautiful women.”
I’ve seen people discriminate against unattractive people solely because of their looks. I’ve seen people discriminate against old people solely because of their looks. I’ve seen people discriminate against overweight people solely because of their looks.
Has it ever occurred to you that the people who do this treat everybody terribly? They’re equal-opportunity offenders. I’ve seen no evidence that attractive people are the recipients of more negative behavior than anyone else.
Margo said: (#81)
“I don’t habitually treat people badly, even when they deserve it.”
You haven’t acknowledged that you’ve even insulted anyone in this blog thread. Based on your statements, you don’t even believe that you’ve insulted anyone in this blog thread.
It’s ironic that you’re repeated accusing several of us of being in denial.
I suspect that you truly don’t notice treating people badly on a habitual basis. But there’s a big difference between not treating people badly, and not noticing when you do.
AnnieC says
@Karl
Why do you seem to struggle to believe that attractive confident women, get attacked either verbally or via sneak attacks by other women BECAUSE they are attractive and confident.?
Women can be very competative, very petty and very jealous. And some women do target specific women due to their narcissism and insecurities.
There are some men who behave like this either, and yes there are people who pick on those that are ugly, fat, short, tall poor, wealthy. So what? Doesn’t mean the author isn’t correct that attractive people are often targetted by those that are jealous of them.
I witnessed this recently at work. A really really attractive , tall, slim young woman joined our work-place. She’s an over-achiever, very nice person who is assertive and confident(but not combative). Like clockwork the same women who alway’s tend to create problems, were bitching about the new co-worker, complaining about her, trying to go to HR to put in formal complaints. It’s the same insecure attention seeking combative women who are jealous of those that are simply more confident, accomplished and attractive than they are.
They haven’t grown beyond highschool, and since women have been dealing with the nastiness of other insecure girls, since we were in primary school, we know when it is happening.
It isn’t alway’s because the confident attractive woman has personality problems. Miserable people like to make other people miserable, its just the way it is, unfortunately.
Helen says
AnnieC 87: You just deftly proved Karl’s point while failing to prove your own. In the example you gave, you say these women were acting “like clockwork” in the new woman’s case and “always tend to create problems.” So why should anyone believe that this one pretty coworker of yours was targeted “BECAUSE they are attractive and confident”? Sounds more like the jerks are jerks to everyone. Then you also mention men who are nasty to multiple different types of people, and state at the end, “Miserable people like to make other people miserable.”
Everything you stated bolsters Karl’s and my points, so it sounds as though we’re in agreement. There is no proof whatsoever that beautiful women are discriminated against specifically. All you have provided anecdotes for support that people who are generally nasty are ALSO generally nasty to the pretty.
Michelle says
AnnieC, there is no way to know what you say is because of this woman’s ‘beauty’, women often act like this with anyone who they believe is infringing upon their territory. And you made Karl’s point, miserable people like to make other people miserable–unless you have evidence otherwise, that’s not reserved for only the ‘beautiful’
Ruby says
AnnieC
I can think of a couple of other reasons why your colleagues might have disliked the new co-worker regardless of her looks: she’s a young upstart and she’s an over-achiever. My guess is that they’d treat a more average-looking woman whom they felt was competing with them the same way.
I’ve never read any studies that show that beautiful people are treated worse, but several that indicate that the beautiful get treated better. Check this one out, for example: http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/beauty-bias/
AnnieC says
@88
It’s simple Helen. They do it “like clockwork” around confident and beautiful women. They are insecure. Hell one of them even admitted, that she was jealous insecure, and didn’t like having friends who look better than her. Lol..
It amazes me, how people don’t want to accept that this happens. This thread Is a perfect example of this kind of jealousy. Rather than people empathizing with some-one who is being targetted by jealous women, people are boo-hooing it. It doesn’t matter why some-one is picked on, if they are suffering due to other people insecurities, then they deserve some sympathy or at least a recognition of the problem.
Yes, women are targetted for being beautiful and confident. It happens.
Katarina Phang says
Annie, there is no doubt that there are catty, jealous and insecure women but if everyone around you behaves this way then there should be more that meets the eyes. I might have had my share of jealous girlfriends/acquaintances in the past but I have had more female friends who are comfortable being around me because of my warm and welcoming personality.
AnnieC says
@89
“And you made Karl’s point, miserable people like to make other people miserable—unless you have evidence otherwise, that’s not reserved for only the ‘beautiful’ ”
Where exactly did I say that it was reserved “only” for the beautiful? I clearly stated, that this wasn’t actually the case.
I said “here are some men who behave like this either, and yes there are people who pick on those that are ugly, fat, short, tall poor, wealthy. So what? Doesn’t mean the author isn’t correct that attractive people are often targetted by those that are jealous of them.”
Please don’t put words into people’s mouths. It’s very frustrating and makes reasonable conversations impossible.
AnnieC says
@92
I agree with you. Samantha brick made the same point when she said, that she had a great group of long-term girlfriends and was happy with her friendships just like you.
She was talking about the specific situations when women get hostile to her due to her looks and/or confidence. In fact she made a point of saying she had close female friends.
Having had those experiences myself and having had female friends having those experiences, lets stop beating around the bush and making excuses.
It happens. Samantha said it does, and she was right. Women can be incredibly bitchy and verbally hostile toward those they are jealous of.
Most women would prefer to see themselves as loving caring women. The reality of female behaviour doesn’t always reflect women belief abotu who they are.
Sam, is 100% spot on. This thread and it’s claims to “she must be mentally ill” proves it. God forbid, women get rid of their jealousies, and show some empathy for a fellow female.
The Sisterhood is a farce.
Katarina Phang says
And no I haven’t had that experience in a loooong time, Annie so I’m still not sure why she constantly experiences that. It’s probably the filter that broke.
Goldie says
If I were to take a guess at why Samantha Brick insists that women hate her for being beautiful, even though, according to her (professionally done) pictures, she’s nowhere close to that category, I’d say it’s an easy out. If people dislike you because you’re being an ass to them, then it’s on you to change and start treating people differently so they no longer dislike you. If, on the other hand, people dislike you because you’re beautiful, then there’s nothing you can do about it. You can sit back, relax, and not change a thing. I mean, you cannot help it if you’re beautiful, right?
In my observation, yes, women can on occasion be mean to someone because she’s prettier than they are, but, like AnnieC said above, that behavior usually stops around age 25, if not earlier. So, when Samantha says that women still do that to her at 40, sorry, I’m not buying. By that age, people have bigger things to worry about than “does my neighbor make my ass look fat?”
My own looks are, I’m being told, considered above average in my age & social group. (I work in IT so the bar’s pretty low; plus, I’ve aged well.) The few times I’ve encountered any kind of bad treatment because of my looks, it has always been from men who tried to objectify me, or use as a status symbol. (When that comes from a guy you consider your close friend, and have feelings for, it kind of hurts.) From women? Never. My female friends and acquaintances are way more mature than that.
Katharine says
All my life people have made a fuss about my “natural beauty” and how I look like a mix between Grace Kelly, Marilyn Monroe and a Young Katharine Hepburn. But I can’t say it has ever made people not like me. I am not smug (despite the above statement). I have met women who I have thought were sickeningly beautiful, but they usually had beautiful natures, which made it impossible not to like them. At the end of the day physical appearance may draw attention, but it’s personality that keeps people’s attentions. This woman may think her appearance drew attention, but perhaps men just loved being around her because she was sweet/funny/fantastic to be around.
Bubbles says
I’m like Samantha Brick. In my neighbourhood and among my friends, at work, etc., I am stunningly attractive by comparison. The big picture, i.e. that Angelina Jolie would not be threatened by me one iota, is something I am aware of too. Brick has said this as well. She is talking about her whole life, not the present moment, at 41 years of age. During her life, within her circles, she has been considered more attractive on the beauty continuum than most and her point is exactly this. Not that you have to be the Most Beautiful Woman in the World, but the cutest in the room, the best looking at work, the one who all the guys talk to at a singles party, to attract venom from women (and sometimes men). I have no qualms whatsoever saying my appearance is above average and that because I am good-looking I have problems, because I also know the other side, having been considered ugly as a child, then dealing with stuff like acne and weight gain that made me blend into the crowd on more than one occasion. I do not consider this being boastful. There is a downside to ‘looking this pretty’ (LOL and tongue-in-cheek) It is just a fact.
Jadafisk says
I understand this. In another blog’s comments about Brick and her appearance, I also mentioned that beauty is going to be context-dependent in many cases. People have a routine, and they get myopia. The people they rank and bestow attractiveness goodies upon are the ones that they meet, not just the ones that they visit on the silver screen and between the pages of magazines – the top 5% of attractive people who most folks will seldom have the opportunity to interact with. Some people serve to benefit, and others get slighted. Sometimes it can happen to the same person in around the same time period. A girl that people wouldn’t look twice at in a college class full of age contemporaries can become the office vixen during her internship if she’s thinner, younger and more attentive to her appearance than the other women there. Women that stop traffic in Omaha are considered run of the mill when they step off of the Greyhound a week later in Los Angeles. When I’m around people of my racial origin, I’m treated like an attractive woman. When I’m not, I’m usually treated like Average Jane. The difference is… palpable. That being said, I’m more apt to place the blame for any in-house woman troubles I’ve had in my life (I’m one of those women who usually has male friends – due to happenstance, not conscious choice) on my own idiosyncrasies, rather than my appearance.
justme says
I know a woman, won’t say friend because she vocally disavows any friendships with women as she only wants to find a husband and as such only considers them worth her time. Every time she comments, it is something abrasive. She often will call another woman “Barbie” instead of using the woman’s actually name. She describes herself as “bluntly honest and most people can’t handle that”. She does tend to rub people the wrong way. She is also overweight. She continually claims people don’t like her because she is fat.
There can be a variety of reasons people don’t like someone else. And the person who is the one disliked can usually only speculate as to the reason. The woman I know thinks it is because she is overweight. Ms. Brick thinks it is because everyone else is intimidated by her looks. It is easier than changing their ways.
Margo says
Karl says: “Margo said: (#81)
‘I’m sure there are probably studies that prove that what Samantha and I am saying on the subject in question is true.’
You’re sure there are probably studies. There’s a contradiction in terms.
You don’t know the name of any studies.
You don’t know who performed any studies.
You can’t describe any studies.
You haven’t read any studies.
You haven’t seen any studies.
You won’t even search for some studies.”
Karl, Hon,…I believe I told you why I’m not inclined to do so. And please don’t think I can’t search for studies, I’m in a doctorate program and doing just that has taken up a good deal of my time lately.
Karl says: “But you’re sure that there are probably studies which completely support your position.”
There are studies on just about everything else, that’s why I included the word “probably” in my statement.
Margo says
Justme, #100, says: “There can be a variety of reasons people don’t like someone else. And the person who is the one disliked can usually only speculate as to the reason. The woman I know thinks it is because she is overweight. Ms. Brick thinks it is because everyone else is intimidated by her looks. It is easier than changing their ways.”
Hon, because some people are disliked because of their behavior, does that disprove that some people are disliked solely because of their beauty?
Answer: Um, no, it does not.
Margo says
Karl: “You’re sure there are probably studies. There’s a contradiction in terms.”
Let me try this again: You’re right, Karl. My above statement is a contradiction in terms.
I was “probably” tired. 😉
P.S. Evan, please forgive me for the triple post.
Karl R says
Margo said: (#101)
“I believe I told you why I’m not inclined to do so. And please don’t think I can’t search for studies, I’m in a doctorate program and doing just that has taken up a good deal of my time lately.”
“There are studies on just about everything else, that’s why I included the word ‘probably’ in my statement.”
I’m absolutely positive that there are studies on this topic.
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/apl943742.pdf
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_12_100/ai_77931216/
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/Careers/07/08/looks/
http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/beauty-bias/
However, the studies show that you’re mistaken.
Excerpts:
“Good-looking men and women are generally judged to be more talented, kind, honest and intelligent than their less attractive counterparts. Controlled studies show people go out of their way to help attractive people — of the same and opposite sex — because they want to be liked and accepted by good-looking people.”
“Attractive people receive more favorable treatment in hiring
and promotion and are rated as smarter, more extraverted, more socially skilled, and as more effective classroom instructors. Attractive children are punished less severely by adults, and attractive babies receive more attention than do unattractive babies”
“a plethora of empirical research has demonstrated
that when it comes to income, attractiveness makes a
difference”
Finding this took me a whole 2 minutes of research.
I suspect it took you longer than that to type your excuses about why you didn’t do any research. I’m sure your thesis advisor would be impressed.
It’s also possible that you did some research, discovered that the research proved you wrong, then decided to tell us why you were “not inclined” to do any research.
Margo says
Karl, um, no. You’re not even close.
What you’ve posted is meaningless to the argument. Apples and oranges. We’re talking about the attitudes of women who are not beautiful towards women who ARE beautiful. We’re not talking about how society treats attractive people in general.
Try again, dear. 😉
Margo says
Any fool would know people treat attractive people IN GENERAL better. For instance, would you rather sit next to a well-dressed, seemingly positive man on a bus, or a man with dirty clothing and a disfigured face?
Karl R says
Margo said: (#105)
“We’re talking about the attitudes of women who are not beautiful towards women who ARE beautiful. We’re not talking about how society treats attractive people in general.”
Are you implying that “women who are not beautiful” are not part of society in general?
Do you believe that the studies I listed above excluded average and/or unattractive women from the testing?
Are you suggesting that the average and unattractive women who were part of the studies were all biased against the beautiful women, but the researchers completely overlooked those results?
You’re working on your doctorate. Is your data analysis so poorly constructed that you could overlook 25% of the sample population producing a result that is the opposite of the rest of the population? If you noticed a substantial subset consistently creating an opposite result, would you ignore it, or would you try to identify common characteristics of this unusual minority?
Margo said: (#106)
“For instance, would you rather sit next to a well-dressed, seemingly positive man on a bus, or a man with dirty clothing and a disfigured face?”
Are you suggesting that an average-looking woman would prefer to sit next to a woman “with dirty clothing and a disfigured face” instead of sitting next to you?
Perhaps you ride the bus less often than I do. My observations of average-looking and unattractive women suggest they’re a lot more likely to sit next to the attractive woman than the dirty, disfigured woman.
Apples and oranges? Really? Men or women, beautiful or not, we’re all people. We’re not that much different from each other.
Margo says
Karl says: “Margo said: (#105)
‘We’re talking about the attitudes of women who are not beautiful towards women who ARE beautiful. We’re not talking about how society treats attractive people in general.’
Are you implying that ‘women who are not beautiful’ are not part of society in general?'”
Karl…Um, no. Sigh. Really?? Do I really have to explain this? LMAO.
The answer to your above question is “No”. However, your above question is ridiculous because it’s irrelevant to the argument regarding the validity of Samantha Brick’s claims as outlined in Evan’s article.
Karl says: “Do you believe that the studies I listed above excluded average and/or unattractive women from the testing?”
No. Answer this, Karl: Do you think every average or ugly woman will feel jealous, envious, or vindictive towards a beautiful woman and act upon those feelings? Answer the question, then explain your reasons.
Karl says: “Are you suggesting that the average and unattractive women who were part of the studies were all biased against the beautiful women, but the researchers completely overlooked those results?”
I’m saying no such thing. And I think that you know I’m not. In your argument with me on this subject, you are now drowning and grasping for straws to try and save yourself.
Margo says
Karl says: “You’re working on your doctorate. Is your data analysis so poorly constructed that you could overlook 25% of the sample population producing a result that is the opposite of the rest of the population? If you noticed a substantial subset consistently creating an opposite result, would you ignore it, or would you try to identify common characteristics of this unusual minority?”
Nope. If it had anything to do with the argument at hand, I wouldn’t.
Helen says
Margo to Karl R: “In your argument with me on this subject, you are now drowning and grasping for straws to try and save yourself.”
Um, no, he’s not. He’s using logic calmly, and you are doing a very poor job of responding to his statements. In fact, all the statements you made in 108 SUPPORT his points. There is no convincing evidence that average women treat beautiful women poorly, end of story.
Margo says
Helen, I’m sorry, but that’s not true.
In fact, you’re just as misguided as Karl is on this one. Of course, from some of your previous responses to some of the threads/comments of posters, I didn’t expect anything more.
However, Helen, go ahead and explain your reasoning. I’m listening.
Helen says
Margo sweetie, it’s simple. Karl R’s and my reasoning:
1. The Hamermesh studies. Look them up.
2. All the articles that Karl listed above.
We trust peer-reviewed, scientifically conducted studies. We are not impressed by insults and anecdotes and ad hominem attacks and false jollity.
Karl R says
Margo asked: (#108)
“Do you think every average or ugly woman will feel jealous, envious, or vindictive towards a beautiful woman and act upon those feelings?”
Absolutely not. Every average or ugly woman? You’re making this easy. Do you really think Mother Theresa spent any time acting out feelings of envy, jealousy or vindictiveness towards Hollywood (or Bollywood) actresses?
If you think she did, feel free to read her diary. It’s been published fairly recently.
While she’s an extreme counterexample, the same is true for the vast majority of women.
Look at the studies. People (including women) treat attractive people (including members of the same sex) better than they treat average-looking people. The only way that peer-reviewed, empirical study can be correct, is for you to be wrong.
I’ll explain it to you, since you weren’t able to figure this out on your own:
One of the studies specifically showed that women treat beautiful women better than average looking women. At least 50% of women are average or unattractive. It’s simple statistical analysis. If the majority of women are jealous of beautiful women, the aggregate trend will reflect the same. If even 50% of women are vindictive towards beautiful women, they will (at least) cancel out the other half.
I’m going to place more validity on peer-reviewed studies than on your anecdotes.
Then there’s my own experience to consider.
When I encounter a man who is wealthier (better-looking, more fit, etc.) than me, I may occasionally feel a brief twinge of envy. It passes, and I think nothing more of it. Envy/jealousy makes people unhappy. Therefore, it is self-destructive to the person who feels it. Furthermore, acting out of envy/jealousy is a complete waste of energy. There’s no benefit from it.
There are a few miserable people in this world who allow envy and jealously to consume them. Because of this, they are very unhappy people.
People don’t generate resentment or vindictiveness by being beautiful, rich, successful or talented. People generate resentment and vindictiveness by treating other people badly. That’s human nature (also repeatedly demonstrated in peer-reviewed, empirical studies).
Margo said: (#51)
“I have had women resent me and attempt to attack my intelligence.”
You insult people, and you appear not to recognize it when you do. I’m sure people resent you for that reason.
You’ve repeatedly presented your own opinion as fact. You’re unable to locate factual evidence to support your opinion. You’ve repeatedly demonstrated poor reasoning abilities and poor debate skills (such as ad hominem attacks). I’m sure people question your intelligence for that reason.
There are more plausible explanations for your anecdotal experiences than your explanation of “jealousy” and “vindictiveness”. Especially since the scientific evidence contradicts your explanation.
jolie says
I’m not sure I believe this. My friend is gorgeous, looks a lot like Pamela Anderson Lee. She gets hit on all the time. My other friend who is also blonde but fairly attractive, although not as attractive as my Lee-look alike, also gets hit on the time. The Lee look alike is drop dead gorgeous and yes she gets all kinds of free stuff, but she doesn’t have any trouble getting dates. She is really nice and has tons of friends. People love to be around her. I’m not sure I believe that really beautiful people are wholly ignored.
Justforalaugh says
I love reading this blog! Evan gives a straight-forward no-nonsense approach to dating smart. Out of curiosity, all the ladies in here who have described heeself as attractive/pretty/knock-out: Would you mind sharing a link of a photo of yourself? It would be a great learning experience to see what type of woman gets the free lattes/free pass on the speeding ticket and better jobs.
Thanks!
Jess
Insight says
This woman is a financial genius. This isn’t really about her looks. You see, she has found a topic that led to a book, media attention, and therefore, lots of money. I don’t think she cares whether we agree she is attractive or not.
Courtney says
“Third, we don’t like anyone who seems too happy or self-satisfied — as she claims to be in her marriage to an older man in the French countryside.”
All she could get was an old man in the countryside? An old monster in the countryside. If I were white & blonde I would go for ALL the hot guys and try to get one of them. There will always be a pile of old men laying around someplace…I guess as a backup plan in case you can’t get anybody attractive and you don’t need to have sex anymore.
Monsters, Inc. says
@Courtney, I resent what you’ve just said about old men. I’ll have you know I’m working out personally. I lift my balls up off the floor and raise them over my shoulders. I do this about 7x a day and I’m in great shape. Whew, what a workout. I’m ready to make love to any woman. I’ll give her the best 3 minutes she’s ever had. Believe it, Buster.
judy says
At the risk of being totally annoying here, beautiful women ARE resented and copied by other women. It isn’t because a beautiful woman is catty, a bitch, mean, or lucky. It’s because she’s BEAUTIFUL.
And while age can change the outside, it won’t change the inside.
Wrinkles come – hair ages – but kindness, compassion and goodness will get you ahead every time.
If you have a pretty face and a great figure – you’ll have to fend off quite a few nerds who just want you for a test drive.
Answer to that: No.
You either value yourself, or you don’t.
A few days away from my 60th birthday folks – and my best birthday present to myself is accepting that I’ll be beautiful for the rest of my life.
With or without a man.
La says
Well, none of us knows because we weren’t there and whether she’s “there” is questionable, but from personal experience I can attest that what she claims she’s been through is a real thing that happens. I know this because it happens to me, and when I finally felt fed up enough to google it – because call it self respect or call it humility, it felt shitty even to search the web for other women who face similar challenges (pun intended) – I felt better, slightly, finding the story about her experience. And while I wasn’t sure on sight what the big deal was about her looks, I recognize the power of body language and that a woman with a mega watt smile on her face, even if her teeth aren’t quite perfect, gains instant points.
I felt relieved reading her story, and any shade of asshole I felt even googling for other women who suffer for looking a certain way was instantly lifted away.
Jesse says
I just stumbled into this post and remember the article. Maybe at some point she was the catch, but not having girlfriends is mostly a character thing. However, I do relate to her story because most of my childhood and young adult life I was the chubby, ugly girl. At 27 that changed like a miracle, but felt uneasy by the overwhelming attention and girls didn’t welcome me anymore. I went from being a cool “dude” to a vixen. All people saw in me was sexual tension. I gained weight again to fit in, but as far as women friends go, I try twice as hard to win their friendship. I don’t just sit back and blame it on my Looks. The horrible part of it is that I can’t find someone who wants me for me. Being attractive is cool, but feels like a curse. I’m a month from being 34 and i still haven’t found someone since I was 25.
RustyLH says
Don’t over-think it too much Jesse. You really are doing that you know. Here, let me show you. You just turned 34, and I’m 50. Care to date me? Maybe get married? Yeah probably not, right? Why? Because likely, you are one of those girls who have an age that is less then my age as your cutoff, right? OK, no big deal. I win some I lose some, but here’s the key…yeah it’s hard to believe but in person I;m a pretty decent guy, and very sweet to the woman I’m with. But that’s not enough, right? It’s not about just one thing, though one thing can be a deal breaker. There’s that old checklist and I didn’t make it to the semifinals. I got cut. Disqualified. OK, so when you find a guy that is the right age, is that all you want him for…all you like about him? No, of course not. Would you want him for who he is if he has enough thins going for him? Of course you would.
OK, so stop over thinking it and likely running off guys that would make a great mate. If he is sticking around for a long time, it’s not just the sex, or your looks. Oh, just like the guy with the appropriate age, you made the cut, you got in the door, but that’s all your looks do. If you personality sucks, he won’t stick around for long. Also, don’t beat the guy up for not being a girl. Like when you always want to come home and spend an hour talking about who said what and who did what, and who’s a B____, and who made you mad, etc… Sorry, for guys that’s like making you listen to baseball stats. We can take it in small doses, but give us the cliff notes version. Work on your 2 minute drill. Our mind will start to wander a bit. And besides, the minute you find a guy that can actually listen t all of that, you’ll friend-zone him anyway. So allow him to love you for what he loves about you, and let him be him. If you are a good looking woman and you assume every man who is with you is only with you for your looks, you’ll never have anyone, because it is certain that if he is with you, he likes you looks, and wants to feel free to express that fact, and enjoy those looks.
Jenn says
A women doesn’t have to be astoundingly beautiful in order to find herself hated and envied by women and sexually frustrated men. She need only be above the average. and that is plenty enough to fire off the inferiority complex of almost all average looking females. Considering that the average female, on a scale of 1 to 10, is only a 3 or 4 at best, its no wonder that as a 6 or 7 Samantha Brick finds herself the frequent recipient of the cold shoulder from females.
In general, as a woman who grew up with many females around and worked in female dominated workplaces my entire adult life, I recommend that society takes with a grain of salt any claim a woman makes that she is not jealous of a female who has above average looks. I’ve seen a lot of otherwise unexplained female hostility directed at good looking women of ALL personality types (meek, quiet, loud, funny, boring, etc) and the hostile females pretty much always claim some untrue flaw in the pretty females is the reason for the hostility. NEVER do jealous females admit to being jealous. I’ve seen it over and over and over again. The personalities of the pretty females are variable, but the fixed elements you’ll find in almost all cat fights involving a good looking woman are: 1. the one being harassed is the female who has the pretty face and 2. the harasser is the female who is only average or flat out ugly. Count on it, bet on it. Its THAT predictable.
Less attractive females will accuse a good looking woman of many false accusations. If she’s quiet, she’s a snob with a superiority complex or she’s crazy or stupid. If she’s extroverted, she’s a flirt trying to get attention from all the men in her radius. A good looking women is simply not allowed to exist with the label of “normal.” Something must be “wrong” with her or else the jealous females know they’re jealousy will be obvious to all. So they makeup something “wrong” with her. In Samantha Bricks’ case, for instance, even though she said she was no model, jealous people MADE her “wrong” by claiming that she was arrogant, conceited, stupid, snobbish, flirty. Of course. See? Clockwork. Count on it every time. A beautiful woman cannot just be or tell the truth. She is always a liar or “wrong.” And yes, Samantha Brick is pretty and was probably a real looker in her youth. To that end, I’m pretty sure SHE CAN be considered an authority on what it’s like to live in the skin of a beautiful woman. The many hags who spewed venom toward her- I’m sure you have no basis on which to stand in making a claim that good looking women have it so good and shouldn’t complain. After all, how would you hags really know?
I myself am about a 5 or 6 and women just avoid me like the plague or take measures to hurt me even if it means risking their own image. And I will attest that yes, the older I get and less appealing I look, women are absolutely less hostile to me than they used to be. Absolutely. As I get older and less attractive, I notice a heck of a lot less nonsense accusations against my character. Fewer stares and evil eyes from women as well. Its rather liberating actually. I can now gauge how bad I look or good I look on any given day based how much female attention my appearance commands. And speaking of female attention, throughout my life I’ve found that its actually females who tend to leer at me way more than the males. I don’t know what they find so fascinating about my appearance, but average looking and ugly females tend to practice some ritual of keeping just enough distance from me so that they needn’t be within casual conversation distance, but just close enough so that they can stare, analyze, and give me the evil eye. They are worse, FAR WORSE, than horny guys when it comes to leering.
starthrower68 says
Maybe it’s my faith, knowing that God has no tolerance for envy and jealousy, but I can honestly say I do not begrudge beautiful women their beauty. I have a handful of them I know, some better than others, and especially if they post on FB, I compliment them. I don’t feel the least bit threatened by them and by no means consider myself anything special. My compliments to them are sincere and genuine. Now, these women of whom I speak are also beautiful of character and heart. I would not rate myself above a 4. I believe my daughter is a beautiful girl, but I also caution her that unless she is beautiful inside, the outer beauty is meaningless. And I guess for me, in some ways it’s freeing to be on the low end of the scale. I don’have to live up to anything. I tend to like fading into the background. 😉
Jen Munro says
OK, I’ll come straight out and say it – I know exactly what Ms Brick is talking about. Dare I say it, I was pretty attractive when I was younger (not any more as I’m nearly 50) which was no credit to me, I resembled my mum who was known as a beauty in her day as well – and I reckon it was a curse more than anything else. People automatically assume you are either a bitch or stupid – I’ve lost count of the number of times people told me in surprised tones “But you’re actually quite nice!” once they actually spoke to me, or the number of times I was told at university that “But you don’t look like an engineering student!” (I used to retort with “So what does an engineering student look like then?”) As a teenager, I wore a white cotton blouse and knee length black skirt and was told my by supervisor at my Saturday job at the local supermarket that if I wore “that outfit” to work again I’d be sacked, despite the fact that it was not revealing, see through or tight fitting. My dad was furious to hear this, stormed in and demanded to see the manager and asked precisely what was so offensive about a white blouse and black knee length skirt? The response was “it’s just the way she looks when she wears it” which I took to mean, that because the outfit was perceived as flattering, I was somehow some sort of distraction or some sort of floozy? What the . . . ?
Roberto E Fiad says
I once came across a Cosmopolitan special issue magazine on the world’s best advice. One noteworthy quote I recall from a comedienne was that to be rejected was to be pushed over onto the right path for the rejected. I know that it sounds like a platitude from pastor Joel Osteen but it does make sense if you have the good fortune of being a long term thinker.
Macy says
I was never considered attractive during most of my childhood. I was the overweight kid with glasses whom other children mocked and took delight in abusing verbally. I had only a handful of friends, and was easily the most invisible individual in a given setting. Boys never paid much attention to me, and I wasn’t cool enough to hang out with the pretty and outgoing girls. From an early age I was deemed a nerd, the dork who played the piano, the kid who played a loner sport like tennis, and the one who was too polite to ever be a part of the “in” crowd. Now, that isn’t to say that I’m an introvert. I have always been closer towards the shy end of the spectrum, but once I get used to my surroundings I open up and usually make others laugh. By the time I entered middle school, the bullying became more prominent, but this time I was shielded by my group of pretty friends. None of us were among the “populars”, so to speak, but no one could deny my friends’ beauty. They were bright, athletic, and one of them was a talented singer. I was clearly the duff, even though that term wasn’t coined until very recently. To compensate for my lack of physical attractiveness, I tried excelling in other areas. I took the most advanced classes, medalled in national music competitions, and even won athletic tournaments. But I wasn’t pretty like my friends. I would have given anything to be pretty like them.
I switched schools upon entering ninth grade. Things started to visibly change… literally. I grew into my facial features: the defined cheek bones, dark eyebrows, and sharp jawline. My body, which fluctuated from chubby to extremely skinny (my metabolism spiked in middle school), evened out into a more womanly and athletic figure. After a slew of unfortunate hair cuts, my mom finally agreed to switch to a new hair dresser who settled on a flattering style of natural layers. People began to stare. Mens’ reactions were especially noticeable since I had never received any form of male attention prior. My peers were suddenly amazed at my achievements. Was it true that I was actually nice, accomplished, smart, athletic, and beautiful? Many boys began developing crushes on me and even went out of their way to try and help me whenever possible. The chips began to falling in place. My life could finally be perfect. Or so I thought.
Because the truth is that there will always be people trying to knock you down, regardless of your physical attractiveness. People always want to feel superior to their peers. If you’re the life of the party, the most charismatic and kind person who happens to also possess leadership qualities, that’s fine. Because if you’re not conventionally attractive, people of your own gender won’t feel as threatened. In fact, they may even feel secure enough with themselves to love you for all the inherently beautiful qualities that make you you. On the flip side, if you are very conventionally attractive (emphasis on conventionally) a large portion of individuals will assume that you lack quite a few brain cells and won’t take you as seriously. I remember, the year after my fifteenth birthday was the first time people hadn’t initially thought I was intelligent. Another common practice is to actively search for a personality fault of an attractive person to justify his or her inferiority. Onlookers also assume that attractive beings are pricks if they don’t smile enough or if they are shy. I have experienced many situations where other females have treated me coldly upon first encounter. Later, after we had become more acquainted, they confessed to being taken aback. After all, how is it that an attractive person can by timid when the world is eager to talk to them? Is shyness in a physically beautiful person even possible?
If you haven’t noticed, I became quite vain and self-absorbed. It makes sense, given that I had been ignored most of my life and suddenly I was worthy enough to have “pretty people problems”. But as I grew older, do you know what I realized? Who the fuck cares what you look like? Even though the idea of being beautiful seems like one of the most important criteria for attaining the perfect female image when you’re a teen, your peers will learn how to see through the facade within minutes. After navigating through the halo effect, people will walk away if you don’t have substance of character and personality. And honestly who cares that you have nice cheek bones? What have you done that has beneficially or will eventually benefit society? How have you managed the opportunities you were given or lack thereof? How have you been a good friend, daughter, son, grandchild, sibling, or parent? How do you personally define yourself?
Lola says
I’m not going to say anything snarky about her not being attractive. She’s cute enough that her experiences are feasible, but what a demented thing to write about!
I would not be intimidated by her, but maybe she’s not very photogenic or something. Also, single women usually want other attractive females for friends because as a group you get more attention. When I go out with my overweight friends, I don’t look better by comparison or anything. It’s my experience that in these situations, I’m written off more often than not. So her logic does not reflect reality.
christina says
she is cute, but her way of describing things may be men who like blondes, or sense a woman with confidence which is sexually attractive. I don’t know what English beauty standards are, but for her, she is the object of jealousy, because she’s considered like a model in her country. before you dismiss me as an ugly looking woman, or average, i’m actually modestly attractive, resembling Kendal jenner or Jessica biel. I just think people’s lives are different based where they live.