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What can I do? I am so tired of feeling as though I am doing this all wrong in my attempts to find a real partner for the past 13 years. Your help is greatly appreciated as I am currently seeing another great guy. We’ve been seeing each other for just over a month now. He’s flown me to Bermuda to meet his parents, and I’ve also met his friends, who have apparently given me the “okay”. Meantime, I’m still going out with friends and about to go on two dates (that I really don’t want to go on but I’ve been told you’re supposed to “date”).
How can I broach the subject so my mind can be clear that he and I exclusive or not? Do I have to wait until he broaches the subject or can I? I am so tired of “games”, but I know it’s a game for the rest of my life even if I become a wife. Ugh.
Help and thank you in advance.
Robyn
I appreciate your sincerity and your desire to have a serious relationship. Your questions are among the most common questions that I get. Truly, what you’re going through is universal, and you’re not wrong to feel frustrated. Which is why I hope you don’t mind when I tell you to just take a deep breath and chill. All your answers will be revealed in due time.
First, a basic fact that you need to get, deep in your bones
Men reveal themselves in their efforts.
Nothing else they do matters.
Which is why you can have an incredible first date which doesn’t lead to a second date.
If he refuses to let you go, you have your husband. If he lets you leave, you have your freedom.
Or a best friend/fuck buddy who doesn’t want to make a commitment.
Or a two-year-relationship that doesn’t result in marriage.
In other words, he can be attracted to you, want to be in love, dream of having children, and yet be perfectly content biding his time with you for a year until he finds the woman he does want to marry. You may say he’s using you. Maybe. Maybe not. But as long as you’re both happy in the relationship, does it really matter?
I can almost hear you screaming, “Yes! Yes, it matters! I want to find love, my biological clock is ticking, I feel all this pressure, and I don’t want to waste my child-bearing years with some jackass who doesn’t know the meaning of ‘shit or get off the pot’!”
Very well, then. Leave him.
Voila. You have your answer.
If he refuses to let you go, you have your husband. If he lets you leave, you have your freedom.
This is far easier said than done, of course. You actually have to have the guts to leave a no-win situation, and many women do not. They’d rather stay in a safe dead-end relationship than be alone. Which is fair. But you can’t blame a guy when you turn 42 and he hasn’t proposed to you after 6 years. You can only blame yourself.
But that doesn’t really apply to you, Robyn. You’ve been seeing a guy for a month and you want clarity. Thankfully, you won’t have to wait too long to get it. Because, as I said above: the answer will be revealed to you. All you have to do is wait. This is the crux of this article, if not my entire dating philosophy for women.
Don’t do anything.
Seriously. That’s it. “Don’t do anything.”
As a woman, you just have to sit back and let him do what he wants.
He wants to meet you; he has to approach you. You say yes.
He wants to plan a first date; he has to ask you out in advance. You say yes.
He wants to kiss you; he has to make a first move. You say yes.
He wants to see you a second time; he calls the next day. You say yes.
He wants to check-in during the week to tell you he’s thinking of you; you take his calls. You say yes.
You don’t have to DO anything. Just see what he does, and say yes.
He wants to take you on a weekend away and introduce you to his friends. You say yes.
He wants to sleep with you; he offers a condom. You say yes.
He wants to commit to you and become exclusive. You say yes.
You see what I mean? You don’t have to DO anything. Just see what he does, and say yes.
If he doesn’t do anything, you have your answer.
This is the single simplest way to understand how to deal with men, and yet women drive themselves nuts.
You try to learn what “games” to play, or how to “figure men out”, or “how to make him commit” to you. It’s all bullshit. There’s nothing to know beyond what we’re DOING.
If we want to call, we’ll call. If we want to commit, we’ll commit. If we want to marry you, we’ll ask you. And if we don’t call, don’t commit, and don’t propose to you (all in a reasonable amount of time), then guess what? We’re not going to. We’re just going to continue with our happy, low-stakes status quo that you so generously allow.
Your only leverage when the time is right? Leave. Say that you need to know you’re investing in a future. And since it’s pretty clear after three months that he doesn’t want to see you more than once a week, you’re gonna have to cut him off. The end. Buh-bye.
Most women don’t take this approach. You speak too soon, or you don’t speak at all.
Maybe you won’t say anything because you know that if you do, the relationship will end. That’s exactly how you can desire marriage but stay in a five-year relationship without a ring. Silence is golden; it doesn’t rock the boat. And yet, you never get what you want.
Then there are women who want answers now. And you ask so many questions that you scare men, and sabotage your own relationships. If my 38-year-old fiancé had done that after a month or three, we wouldn’t be getting married. She was cool enough to allow me to choose her, instead of forcing my hand. For that, I’m eternally grateful.
It’s not easy to be the “cool” chick, Robyn. I understand. But your relationship pattern is no accident. And it’s really easy to break. If you want to know what to do in the future, just follow this very simple paradigm:
- 1) Let him do what he wants.
- 2) If you like it, stay. If you don’t like it, go.
There’s nothing else to think about.
Cilla says
Welcome back! Hope you had a wonderful honeymoon!
Great column. Just whittled down from 12 email contacts, all of which met my initial criteria, to 3, maybe 4, possible men to date (will be meeting one Sunday). I’ve never had so many potential mates all at once (gotta give you some credit there!). I was wondering what to do to help me decide if any of them will work out. Now I know: nothing! I’ll just wait and see what THEY do and respond. Between my profile, our emails, and our phone conversations, they know what I want. If they don’t step up and provide it when I am receptive, I’ll move on. This post was timed perfectly for me.
Jennifer says
Welcome back Evan.
I love this advice, and even though people will try to complicate it with their own unique situations (my guy is super shy, i don’t want to have to wait, etc.) I think this advice is solid. I want to add that do nothing doesn’t mean you have to act be mean or aloof, it just means not pushing things.
Steve says
Welcome back Evan.
I agree with everyone else about the good advice. People make up or believe lame rationales for other people’s behavior out of fear of losing something. The fact is that if people are interested they will act interested. In obvious and straight forward ways. If you don’t see it, it isn’t there. Move on.
Konnect Life says
With women being told to “don’t do anything” and reinforcing the fact that guys have to do all the work, it won’t be so easy for a guy to know if a woman is not interested. Just sitting back waiting for a guy to make a move then just saying yes is almost like a mixed message in a way. Imagine the scenario where the woman isn’t really doing anything and the only times she sees the guy is when he asks. It doesn’t help that men are also being taught to play the same game, so both parties are likely sitting there holding back waiting to see the other prove their love. To make matters worse, it’s already up to guys to make the move, pretty much do and say everything almost perfectly and timed right (not too soon, but not too late) in verbal or text communication, and then men are expected to just know when a woman wants to be pursued or not and they better not dear get it wrong. If she wants sex, you better know it and give it to her when she wants it, but you better not dare try or say anything and make the wrong assumption if she ends up not wanting it or else you will have your labels (creepy, needy, etc.) thrown at you, and you better not dare hold back if she did want it or else you’ll become the “nice guy” / just a friend and judged as someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing. Give your feelings too soon and you will be rejected as a man. But hold back, play like the bad boys and leave women wondering and they’ll want you, but need to come to sites or people like this and be told more gamey advice.
If it were up to me, people would just be more open, honest, clear and straightforward with no games. I get a clear sign from the woman that she also wants me to pursue and show my love so I can focus on moving forward in a secure, confident, comfortable manner knowing that we are both f giving and showing each other what we want. If she wants to talk to me or love me or make love or anything, just be clear, straightforward, honest and say it clearly. If I want to express my feelings or say something, I should also be able to just say/do something WITHOUT having to worry about coming across too nice or as no longer the bad boy challenge. BOTH people interacting, making moves, talking and being straightforward and clear in a relationship – that’s what I like, and that’s what I desire. No one sitting back, doing nothing and waiting for the other person to show first, especially when a guy can be punished for moving too fast or too slow or seeming too nice or too interested, etc.
With all the game play, it makes it harder for people to find makes and even makes it discouraging, so people often settle for the best they can get, hence why a bunch of people either unhappily single or just holding on to someone that is good enough for now until they find someone better. Sometimes it can be easier to just get comfortable and stick with an ok relationship for the companion ship instead of going through the pain of ending it THEN having to go back to the guesswork and game play of dating and playing the hold back and wait game.
Don’t sit back and do nothing. Say what you want, and if the guy runs away, there will always be another guy who may appreciate you (unless you are seeking and chasing the wrong types of men and blowing off the ones who actually want to offer what you desire…) Be straightforward and honest and also show the guy you’re interested and call/text/see him and talk to him whenever you want to and show him that it’s ok for him to pursue, too. If you’re looking for the right type of men, this will work. If you’re looking for typical bad boy types, then you will have to continue the game play and power struggle strategy.
Londa Adams says
This gave me life !!
Beth says
Um, are you single? I think this is excellent advice. You should make a fine boyfriend:)
Brocia says
This is exactly how I am which is why I have a hard time finding the right guy. Most guys get scared by my straight forward approach. But I’m ok with it because it just means they weren’t the right guy for me and I’m better off being alone and single than being in the wrong relationship and changing who I am.
Maria V. Arnold says
Omg, this was my exact thought when I read the article! How fair is it to make the guy do all the work? I mean, they tell you to drop friends that make you do all the work and are one-sided, so why ever would I want to do that in a relationship?!
ScottH says
Amen!!
Lorie says
Great advice!! Thank you. That’s exactly what we should be doing being more open and letting the other person know how we feel and what we want in a relationship. If we aren’t honest then we aren’t being our best selves. Thank you Konnect Life!!
Jen says
Hey Evan! Welcome back! I trust you had an awesome honeymoon in Thailand..
Anyway, I just have one question… Why did you not run this post a year ago?!? This is something that I really could have used prior to my last relationship, which I wrote to you about last May. I was the fun “cool chick” in what turned out to be a dead-end relationship – one that went on for nearly ten months! I got out of it a couple months ago, and have yet to go back online (gearing up now, though, and using Evan’s profile advice), but I will most definitely ‘date smarter’ the next time around.
Geeez, the concept is so clear and easy to grasp when you are NOT in the middle of the situation that makes you so crazy! The key is not getting there in the first place. Duh! 🙂
Cilla, I would be interested to know how your new dating strategy goes, as this is exactly how I’m approaching it the next time around!
Cilla says
Jen,
I’ll keep you posted! First date with a hottie (big, buff firefighter) on Sunday. So far so good–he has been emailing, calling, and texting me with appropriate regularity. He keeps me laughing, and there are no lags in the conversation. He asked ME out on our first date, and HE is driving to my city (he lives about 2 hours away). He also made it clear he is not expecting to spend the night, even though we are meeting in the evening, and he will have to drive home afterward. Keep your fingers crossed the date goes well and he calls for another!
Honey says
Great advice. I wonder about what others think regarding how long to wait for a proposal before determining the guy isn’t interested in that? I’ll be one of those “complicating” people that Jennifer refers to in post #2. In these crazy economic times, a wedding–or even a ring–may be something postponable for many people.
BeenThruTheWars says
You let him fly you to Bermuda to meet his parents — within a month of meeting the guy? Yikes! Are all your relationships that intense, that soon? No wonder they burn out quickly. Even if you aren’t pressuring them, guys will scare THEMSELVES into poofing at that pace. That is not a healthy approach to the dating process if you are looking for a husband. While I agree with Evan that you should let the man lead, let him pursue, and don’t pressure him with any “relationship discussions” within the first few months, I do NOT agree that every response from you needs to be “yes.” Often, especially if a guy is giving you the full-court press (as this one seems to be), it’s in your best interest to respond, “Gosh, that sounds great, maybe when we get to know each other a bit better.” You are in charge (believe it or not) of how quickly these things develop, and faster is seldom better. Learn to have some patience (not six years worth! There is a happy medium) and put the brakes on the runaway train.
Rachelle says
Great advice, Evan! I don’t think I’ve ever read anything so clear and to the point. I’ve already forwarded this to a few friends. I know being a gal, we like to over analyze the heck out of what guys say, etc.
Men reveal themselves in their efforts! SO SIMPLE!
Looking back in hindsight, this would have saved me alot of heartache!
Hey Jen, I can relate. I was dating a guy for a few months this past summer and things ended in September. Since then, I’ve taken a break from internet dating to just gather my thoughts. I’ve been on Yahoo and Match early this year. Thinking of EHarmony, but just not sure…I think about meeting and greeting again and it makes me cringe!
Robin says
I believe everything happens for a reason. I am 51 yo. I have dated tons of men. Some of them have broken my heart. Guess what? I got over it, moved on and met someone even better the next time. So what? I had fun, I loved. That is THE most important thing. My time was not wasted. Each guy is “a point of reference”. They have all crossed my path for a specific reason. One brought me to Malaysia to meet his parents, and I traveled Asia for a month. One took me to Paris and then to London. One took me to Canada. One had a boat and we went on great sailing trips to the Caribbean. One was a great dancer, he taught me to dance and I found a lifelong passion. I was living my life. I was having fun, and so were they. Why they came into my life only became apparent AFTER I was no longer with them. I am thankful for each one. Each one makes you smarter and tells you what you do or do not want in a mate. Not every guy can go the whole distance with you… some have to leave, sometimes you have to cut it short. Every time, though…LIVE and LOVE. All we have is the moment. Forget about your Bio-clock, forget about who else he’s seeing. Protect you health., But don’t carry your heart around like it’s made of glass. If you are meant to have kids, no amount of force is going to get you there. You need to be able to give love freely without expecting anything in return. Eventually you will develop a radar as to which guys are good for you and which ones are not. In the meantime, have fun and live for god’s sake! A little piece of advice: If you are enjoying yourself and so is the guy, that’s the best indicator that it could be long term. If not, move on…life’s too damn short to be unhappy.
Eva says
Totally agree. Love your post, live life to the fullest.
lisah says
Well said. Thank you.
fortyfitandfine says
I don’t know who you are Robin, but DAMN you need to write a book. I swear, your comments gave me life and you are right. When did times change where all of this defining everything came along. I’m only 40, but before my divorce, ppl just dated, and if it evolved into something, it did, if not, you moved on. All this hype of defining the relationship is taking the fun out of getting to know ppl. YOU ARE A BLESSING, and YOUR WORDS ARE SO INSPIRING and HOLD TRUE TO SO MUCH. I will print them out and read them on my next GROWN WOMAN VLOG…You sound HELLA FUN!!! and my hopes is that I can get back to having fun and that so many other women can as well. BLESSINGS MY SISTER!!!
JuJu says
I don’t understand, though, how this jibes with the advice to be proactive online in terms of approaching men.
Marika says
JuJu,
I think that with online dating as there are so many people on the site, the guy may not know you exist if you don’t make it known (if you’re interested in him). Much like Evan’s advice to smile or move near a guy you like at a party, he suggests making initial contact online with a cheeky joke or similar to make the guy aware of your presence & interest, but then let him reply, continue chatting, ask you out etc. I don’t think he’s suggesting completely doing nothing at all in the dating interplay, but to make it clear that you’re interested and receptive, rather than being really proactive & aggressive. That’s my take, anyway.
To give an example: I recently contacted a guy online who I thought seemed interesting. He mentioned Dad jokes in his profile, so I Googled Dad jokes and sent him the lamest one, with a message: this is the worst Dad joke ever..”..”, unless you can beat it? smiley face. Well, he did, and we continued chatting and now he’s asked me out. I contacted him to show interest, but I didn’t write “I like you, let’s go out”, rather that evolved as we chatted, once he knew I was a. on the site, and b. interested. Alternatively, sometimes I contact men and they don’t reply. In that case, I let it go.
JuJu says
Ah, Robin, your words should be tattooed in every woman’s consciousness.
fortyfitandfine says
HIGH FIVE
Jennifer says
@ Honey#6 …your comment isn’t what I consider a ‘complicating’ one 🙂 It’s those people that feel like they, and whoever they are dealing with, are *always* the exception to every rule, ya know?
There’s a book by John T. Molloy, Why Men Marry Some Women and Not Others that I think has some useful info around this topic. The author interviewed couples coming out of marriage license bureaus about their relationships and more (their ages, how long they’d been dating, etc.) and found some trends. I’d be interested to see how Evan and others feel about this book
Jen says
Cilla, my fingers are double-crossed for your meeting on Sunday! Sounds like – thus far – he’s done everything right, which indicates a nice degree of interest on his part. Good start, and I’m pulling for a quick followup phone call or email from him after your date! (A firefighter? Nice!) 🙂
Rachelle, I hear ya girl! I’ve been in no hurry to get back into the online dating thang just yet, and I’ve been using this time doing the same thing you are…just getting my thoughts gathered, dating strategy formulated, and readying myself for the meeting/greeting fun!
Ben says
Hmm.. i guess i can see where this advice might be good for many (most?) guys who are scared of commitment.
But as a self proclaimed “nice guy” who’s looking to commit, i’m looking for the opposite. I’d love to see the woman take the initiative occasionally and not just wait for me to do everything and plan every. single. date.
I start to think she’s not that interested in me if i’m the one always calling, always asking, always initiating everything. And i start to wonder, if i ask too often or for too many dates, that i’ll be sent to the cling zone.
Even if she says yes every time. I still wonder. If she were really interested, she’d do more than just say yes.
So it’s really a balancing game.. on both sides.
Angela Raskin says
I like your input. Some of this advise just puts women in this pathetic docile role! Who says men get to make all these decisions! Isn’t it sexist? Aren’t we all working towards equality? I actually hate this paradigm. And it’s why I gladly let a guy pay for every date. Because that have this absurd right to ask you on one. And women don’t!
Evan Marc Katz says
Please don’t misunderstand when I write, “Say yes”. It’s not a mindless rubber stamp to all of his wishes. It means, as a woman, in particular, that you don’t have to DO anything except OBSERVE what he’s doing. If HE makes the effort to move the relationship forward, all you have to do is go along with it; if he doesn’t make the effort, then there is NOTHING to think about.
Honey says
@Jennifer, #12, I think that people need to have an idea of what constitutes disinterest and what is clearly an external factor. Just because you can’t afford a ring/wedding, doesn’t mean you can’t tell if the guy’s interested in you!
Jennifer says
@Honey #16- Agreed, I think we are on the same page.
One of the reasons your comment made me think of that book is because it was found that men tend to want to wait until things are financialy i’n order’ before getting married, and sometimes their lack of a proposal is based solely on that factor.
Honey says
@Jennifer, #17–I find that my boyfriend is EXACTLY that way. Although we both just got out of grad school so there is definitely enough credit card and student loan debt to make it a viable concern, especially because he wants a big traditional wedding. There’s no way we can drop $20K + on something like that right now.
starthrower68 says
AMEN AND HALLELUJAH, EVAN!!!! Finally you’ve said what most of us end up learning the hard way. It’s so simple and yet seems so difficult for us to grasp. I just gave up on a guy precisely because there was no action. It is difficult for women to do this because we are over-analytical. But I try to remember Proverbs 4:23, “Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life”. There are different meanings for this, but one that could apply here is don’t get emotionally involved until his actions prove there is reason to do so.
A-L says
I’ll have to echo BeenThruTheWars’ #7. Guys who get serious quickly can scare THEMSELVES off. It’s happened to me a couple of times, and it’s really bad if they sweep you up into the rush of emotions as well. I still have difficulty figuring out the right pacing for a relationship in its beginning phases (ie, in the 1-2 month range) but that’s just something I need to work on. And even though Evan’s advice can be quite difficult, it’s usually pretty darn right. Nice to have you back, Evan!
happygirl says
Welcome back Evan. I hope you had a fantastic honeymoon in Thailand.
Love the advice you gave today. So crisp and cristal clear and so simple. That is just what I needed to read.
moody.bitch says
@Jennifer and @Honey: Maybe it’s time for people to think about separating the act of “marriage” from the ceremony of a “wedding”. Just because they’ve traditionally occurred simultaneously doesn’t mean there’s no alternative but to wait until you’ve saved up tons of cash.
You can spend a few bucks to get married right now down at the courthouse; and then keep working together on the financial situation until you can afford the wedding of your dreams within a few years. (Hey, those lower taxes as a married couple will help with the savings plan!)
I personally can’t imagine loving someone enough to want to marry them, and then letting my desire for a big wedding ceremony stand as a barrier to that. Yes, it’s nice to have a beautiful memory, the photo album, and that slice of wedding cake stored in the freezer, but when you get right down to it, what truly matters is the marriage, not the wedding.
Just some food for thought. 🙂
The InBetweener says
I HAVE to echo Ben on this one. Especially on the balancing thing.
Otherwise, SOME men MIGHT see a “woman” as being childish.
The “tit for tat” attitude doesn’t really work.
If you like him, feel free to pursuit him in any way that you like. Why waste time waiting for HIM to ask YOU anything when you could be GOING AFTER what you want.
Konnect Life says
Usually, if a woman starts doing anything that could be misconstrued as lack of interest (including not reaching out or doing nothing or holding back, etc.), I will start to open my options and start moving towards the woman who is being straightforward, clear, and honest with their feelings towards me. I will focus on the one who shows me their love and gives me the clearest sign that they want me to want them as well.
moonsical says
It’s nice to see the blog owner check it and start writing again! Thanks! I’m sure your honeymoon was dreamy!
This advice is pertinent and applicable for me right now. I have to say, it is more the case as I get older that waiting might be the best strategy. It worked quite well for me to initiate things when I was younger, and there was good give-and-take often. I can only boil it down to the men that are older and single perhaps have issues running them more often than in our youth.
I have one for the blog. There is a man I contacted in a town about 2.5 hours away, as I thought I’d be there shortly. He seemed happy to meet, then I postponed my trip. I will now be passing through over Thanksgiving. Thing is, he has pushed phone calling when I am only interested in e-mailing until I’m there and we need to talk to clarify a time/place to meet. I have explained this and he again sent his phone number, and has not e’d again. I like each stage to feel natural and I’m just not “feeling him” yet, for a phone call. I’ve only see about two paragraphs out of the man. He has not said what his objections/limitations to e-mail are, though I expressed curiosity. I intend to call him when I am in his town, as I said I would. But really, I don’t get it when people are Internet dating, but will not write. Comments? I really do hate it when men insist I call them right off the get go. It feels pushed.
moon
happygirl says
Evan Marc Katz Nov 20th 2008 at 02:31 pm 15
Please don’t misunderstand when I write, Say yes. It’s not a mindless rubber stamp to all of his wishes. It means, as a woman, in particular, that you don’t have to DO anything except OBSERVE what he’s doing. If HE makes the effort to move the relationship forward, all you have to do is go along with it; if he doesn’t make the effort, then there is NOTHING to think about
I THINK THAT EVAN’S ADVICE MAKES A LOT OF SENSE TO ME. I HAVE BEEN TALKING ONLINE TO THIS ONE GUY FOR A BIT MORE THEN 3 WEEKS WE HAVE SPOKEN OVER THE PHONE SEVERAL TIMES. HE IS ALWAYS VERY, NICE, POLITE AND WE LAUGH A LOT, I HAVE NOTHING BAD TO SAY ABOUT HIM.HOWEVER FOR SOME REASON WE DON’T SEEM TO GET IT PAST THAT STAGE. HE DID ASK ME IF WE COULD MEET I SAID YES. I AM SO READY TO MEET THIS GUY AND SEE IF THERE IS ANYTHING THERE AND TO SEE HOW WE INTERACT IN PERSON. I HAVE BEEN TAKING EVANS ADVICE TO LOOK OUTSIDE THE USUAL SCOPE OF GUYS I GO. SO I STRUCK UP A NICE RAPPORT WITH THIS GUY. HE CALLED ON ON A REGULAR BASIS. ….AND HERE IS WERE WE GET STUCK. SO I THINK THAT I NOW NEED TO SIT BACK AND LET HIM MAKE THE NEXT MOVE. IF NOTHING IS HAPPENING THEN I GUESS I HAVE MY ANSWER. ALSO WE WERE SUPPOSE TO MEET AND THEN WE DID NOT. ( LONG STORY)
Kenley says
Moon and Happy Girl,
Here are my two cents……
For Moon:
Based on Evan’s response, you already have your answer. If he has not emailed you again it means that he’s not willing to go at the pace YOU prefer. What does it matter what his objections to emailing are? Why try to figure them out– especially since you asked him and he didn’t tell you. Forget him and move on. The only thing I would ask is this (and I will admit that unlike most women, I don’t like emailing back and forth because I can get a much better idea of what a person is like on the phone), what will it hurt you to talk to this guy on the phone? Thanksgiving is this week and you were planning to meet him. It seems to me that talking to him isn’t all that unreasonable since you were going to see him face to face this week. But if you feel at all like you’ve been pressured to move more quickly than you’d like, then don’t call him and don’t waste anymore time thinking about him either.
For Happy Girl:
Three weeks is way more than enough time to have had a face to face with the guy. The next time you talk to him, what I’d suggest you say is this — hey, Bob or whatever his name is, you know I’m really enjoying talking to you and getting to know you so if you asked me out again, I’d definitely say yes (say it will a smile in your voice.) This way, you are giving him a very upfront invitation and letting him decide if he wants to act. If he doesn’t ask you out right then or the next time you talk, he never will so forget him and move on. I actually think Evan would say you already have your answer and forget him now — but since you seem to like him so much, I think a little nudge wouldn’t hurt.
Good luck, ladies!
benh57 says
I concur about the call vs. email.
Some people just aren’t ‘talk on the phone’ people. This is actually much more common amongst younger people than older. You won’t find many men under 30 wanting to call women, all the guys (and most of the gals) will prefer email and text.
But then again some people aren’t good writers. Sounds like your man isn’t.
Personally i kinda prefer email. It gives you more time to construct the perfect reply. But a little bit of both is needed when getting to know someone.
-Ben
The InBetweener says
WOW!!
“…you know I’m really enjoying talking to you and getting to know you so if you asked me out again, I’d definitely say yes (say it will a smile in your voice.)”
How about instead of all the HOOP JUMPING, she just ASKS HIM OUT? I mean seriously, do you really need all the extra hoop jumping to want to go out again? Just be a “mature” WOMAN about it and ASK HIM. It’s not high school. C’mon, what’s the worst that could happen? If he says no, THEN you have your answer.
moonsical says
Hey there,
Thanks for the responses. I am going to keep my word and call him when I am actually in his town, which, as I said, is about 2.5 hours away. I guess for me, “doing phone,” with someone before meeting is really kind of odd. It can be intimate and over-develop things before you see if you like someone in person. Many of the women here say if they do talk on the phone pre-meeting, it’s a quick 15-20 minutes to check it out and confirm meeting. Which is about what makes sense to me.
I also work full time and have two college classes and during those hours am not near a phone. I do have a pay-per-use cell that is for emergencies and traveling, but I am not one of those folks you see with a cell glued to my ear, yackking everywhere I go. Quite the opposite.
But also, I just wasn’t comfortable enough yet. I like a little e dialogue as a warm-up.
Lol on the reference to texts…got my first one the other night from a neighbor who likes me. It came through as a text-to-voice mail. At nearly midnight, I might add (another good reason I prefer to share my number after people know me–because now they have it!) I think we got that straightened out. He declared, “Oh, sorry, you’re on of those land line people!” Now he knows! Old fashioned, I guess.
moon
Lance says
EMK, whatup dog, glad you’re back!
A month is an awfully short amount of time to get bent out of shape about this stuff. Also, really, he flew you to Bermuda ALREADY to meet the parents?? In four weeks, how many dates/meetups have you had? 6-8? In my book, that’s hardly enough time to get to know someone, and really the gamey part of an early relationship will still be going on. It’s been my experience that 2-3 months is minimal before starting to think about exclusivity. So I guess I like Evan’s advice, do nothing for the moment and let him lead.
Kenley says
Inbetweener,
Evan’s answer seems to suggest that women be more passive and Happy Girl appeared to like it. So I was suggesting a way to get things going while allowing her guy to do the work. I respect that you don’t like the approach, but I am not certain why you felt the need to be so critical of it. There are many solutions- all can be effective depending on the people involved. No need to dis my suggestion when offering yours.
Infinity says
Clearly you are looking to make a choice and I think Evan is right, here. You can demand what you want and illicit a response out of him or you could do nothing and let his actions speak.
One thing that I learned about relationships is that once you settle in them, it matters less what you say to your partner when it comes to keep a relationship healthy. What matters more is what you do on your part to keep the relationship healthy and her happy.
(hoping that made sense)
moonsical says
Hi Infinity,
I think that was directed to me? I’m open to getting his take on things once I’m actually there. If we don’t meet, there’s not a lot of point in either e-mail or phone, since I don’t like fantasy relationships! But I must say it does stump me that people Internet dating are averse to e-mailing. It’s part of it.
I am all about the phone sometimes (quite a chatter) which is why, for time management’s sake (the above-mentioned work and classes) I use it with people I already know.
moon
Jennifer says
@Moon #33
I think the amount of emailing you want to do back and forth with a person depends on how you view internet dating. For some people, myself included, the internet is simply a way to meet people I may not otherwise have met, not a way to get to know them, so after 2 emails it’s time to talk on the phone and then meet in person because that iis how I get to know people.
So not wanting to spend a lot of time emailing when meeting people online isn’t necessarily odd. The people you are running into likely just have a different view of internet dating than yours, not wrong or right but just different.
Cilla says
Update:
Hot FF and I were supposed to meet for a first date last night. He lives a couple of hours away in a bigger metropolitan area. He initiated contact with me, asked me out, and offered to come to my city to meet. He did the slow cancel Saturday (“I’m working, if it gets busy I may not be up for the drive tomorrow”)…
Possible, given how exhausting a 24-hour shift can be, but he made the date knowing full well he had to work the night before. I suspected he just had a “hotter” prospect on his line, and it wasn’t fatigue or cold feet.
My feeling is that if a man really wants to do something, he will find a way to do it. I decided to take Evan’s advice and do nothing to see if he pursued correspondence with me or poofed.
Just got a text message apology from him. I think he should have called last night, and waiting to send a TM today is lame. Even an email would have been better. I understand if he doesn’t want to call me during work hours, but then he shouldn’t have waited until today to get in touch.
Meanwhile, several other suitors have stepped their game, so I’m not the least bit upset over the date being canceled, although I was curious to meet him in person. The question is: do I ignore the text and see if he emails or calls? Do I let him stew for a while, then text him back with a humorous but clear message that this kind of behavior gets one pass and if he does it again, he’s done? While the method of apology is lame, he did initiate contact. I’d still like to meet him, and I’m willing to add him to my “rotation” to see how he stacks up against the other guys, but I don’t want to set any precedents for being a doormat. Should I backburner him, as he appears to be doing to me, and see if he can earn a front burner position? Readers, Evan, thoughts?
JuJu says
Cilla,
let me get this straight: he never actually called (or even e-mailed) to tell you that the date is for sure not happening? Just said that it might not?
Jen says
Hi Cilla,
Sorry about your FF flaking….I was pulling for you!
Regarding your questions about what to do: I believe that you have the right idea in that you should ignore the lame-o text apology (what a coward!), and backburner him with no further communication by you until and unless he steps up to the plate and shows legitimate interest in seeing you. He’s gonna have to work at getting back in your good graces, in my humble opinion! You have others that are interested…they are the ones that you should focus on now…
My personal opinion, based on experience? I doubt if you hear from Mr. Hot FF again….
Evan Marc Katz says
Hey guys,
I really appreciate your incredible insights on these boards, but this isn’t the place to ask personal questions. Otherwise, the threads will be all about people asking for their own personal advice, and will no longer be about the advice column itself.
One of these days, I’ll develop a private forum for readers to interact and support each other, but in the meantime, the comments are for comments on the column, not for personal questions.
Thanks a bunch. I’m grateful for your participation.
Evan
moonsical says
Jennifer,
Last e since Evan’s issued his statement (sorry Evan if our actual lives are calling out to us!) (I think folks have been patient with the Q&A of late.)
Jennifer: agree. But when it is long distance and meeting is postponed, it’s a little odd not to be able to choke out a few e-mails. Also, e-mailing is incorporated into my daily life as a way to keep in touch with friends and family. It is valid. If someone is a-skeered of e-mailing, they are not going to fit with my communication style. Who hasn’t gotten an e from a friend or sweetie during a hard day that made them smile? If I meet this guy, I’ll get the scoop. If we don’t meet, I’ll move on.
Maybe phone is like kissing for me: I want to be moved to (i.e., “I really want to talk to him!”) rather than offering it in a perfunctory manner.
I like what Ben said about a little of both (phone and e) being right. Agree there, too.
C–sorry your date canceled. I hope he actually canceled rather than inferring. A tm is lame if your relationship is more than that. If not, it shows you what level it’s at.
moon
Cilla says
My apologies for veering off in a personal direction. I think we’ve been doing that for the last couple of weeks while you were gone, Evan. See what happens when you go on your honeymoon and let the inmates run the asylum (no offense to your wonderful staff–I mean the readers, of course LOL)!
happygirl says
Thanks for the responses & advice. Appreciate it all.
I did give him a nudge and I have asked him out and we have set a date to meet. This week. So let’s see what will happen next……to be continued
thomas says
Jen #13
“just getting my thoughts gathered, dating strategy formulated, and readying myself for the meeting/greeting fun”
It almost sounds like a book report. It might be my personality, but I would never approach things like this. This method would never work for me. It seems unnatural. It almost seems like you are trying to force it to happen.
To me it sounds like you are going into hunting season and you are looking for that deer with the bull’s-eye birth mark.
I think that this article really hits on a key idea, do not do anything. I feel that a lot of people spend way too much energy and effort. In the end when their results do not = expectations, I hear a lot of women call it “wasted time”.
Maybe I am taking it a step further, but I would say not to do anything in a relationship, by this I mean, do not push things. If you connect and things are right, everything goes to the next step. If things are wrong and not where you want them, do not force the issue and move on.
I can remember a time when I met a woman and just after I met her she made the statement, “I can not believe that I have only known you for 2 hours and I already love you.” I have been out with a handful of women that were ready to get married after the first date. When I say get married, I meant right there and then.
Do not have a handful of your best freinds chilling on top of buildings with sniper rifles ready to take out our knee caps so that we are slower, can not run away, and are easier to catch. I think that too many women see a man as a prize and not an asset.
Do not do anything. That is great advice. If the two of you meet, you hit off great, then go forward. Do not push anything, it is going to back fire in the long run. I for one hate when I have things pushed on me. I have my own pace and like to move at my own rate. It seems like some women are ready to start a long term relationship before I have even found out their name.
I like to go out once a month for a few months, then once a week for awhile, then see the other person more frequently as time moves on. I like to get to the known who the person is before I really invest time in her. Just because I just met you, and we click, does not mean that we have to be joined at the hip, right now. Just do not do anything. If things happen and are true, then nature will take over and it will move onto the next phase.
Jen says
To: Thomas #42
Hey Thomas, I believe that you completely misinterpreted my comments regarding getting my thoughts gathered, dating strategy formulated, etc. I’m not quite sure where you got the ‘hunter’ analogy here, with the thought that I am plotting to ‘bag a man’ by whatever means and tricks I may have up my sleeve, but you are so far off the mark, it’s not even funny.
The ONLY thing that I referred to was my re-entry back into the dating world (eventually, when I’m ready, after a recent breakup) with the attitude that Evan was conveying in his answer to the original question on this blog…..”Don’t Do Anything”. This is a whole new ‘strategy’ for me in that is a very freeing concept, and so simple…one which I wish that I had thought of myself! It would certainly have saved me a bunch of confusion and frustration over the ten months I was in my last relationship. Like most women, I simply over-analyzed my situation, and made it much more complicated (in my mind) than it should have been.
Your comments sound to me like they stem from you attracting the wrong type of woman into your life, but please do not lump us all into the category of ‘desperate man-hunters’!
A-L says
I agreed with most of Thomas’ post (#42) until he got to the last paragraph. Meeting once a month for the first few months? If I a guy “dated” me like that, I’d assume he wasn’t interested, or not interested but thinking I might okay with a booty call. As far as pacing goes, I’m more like once a week for several weeks, then two to three times per week, and on up. By the 2 month mark, it should be at the 2-3x/week mark, or more, depending on how you and the guy are feeling the relationship. I don’t think this equates to static cling, or asking for a proposal (or even exclusivity) right away. To me this is normal pacing, but perhaps I’m the one totally off base here.
The InBetweener says
Kenley,
I apologize if you feel that your suggestion was dissed. It wasn’t. However, what I was suggesting is that she take a more “grown up/mature” proactive approach to her own situation. It’s probably the way you worded your suggestion that seemed a little bit “hoop-jumpy” instead of just a straight forward/let’s not not play games/we are NOT in grade school anymore approach. That’s all. Again, I apologize if you feel that I was being critical of your suggestion.
Jennifer says
Thomas, are you for real? Just about all of your stories and examples seem so over the top…
Ben says
(i think we’re still on topic Evan 🙂 How about those forums? 🙂
A-L, i think your pacing sounds about right.
Once-a-month is way too spread out for the initial period.
Once a week for a few weeks, then 2-3x and up after that sounds about right to me and most dating experts will probably agree.
I certainly wouldn’t expect a call back if i waited a month after my first meeting with a woman. That would indicate extreme disinterest on my (or her) part.
Jennifer says
@A-L #44,
You are I are on the same page regarding pacing, so you are most definitely NOT alone in your thinking!
thomas says
Jennifer, #46
I think that too many people have gotten away from society and wrapped up in their own world. You can live in a city like New York, be surrounded by millions, and still be lonely. I see people all the time talking on their cell phone and listening to their IPOD. We walk pass thousands of people every day and never come into contact with them. People have become isolated.
When you leave your house, turn off your cell phone. I still have yet to buy an IPOD. There is too much going on around you to need these things hanging from your head.
When you are on vacation or a trip, you are on a trip and not at the office. Leave the office at the office. If you are sitting at the airport typing away no one is going to come up to you. If you are chilling and day dreaming, you are more likely to have someone come up to you and start a conversation.
I think that too many people are afraid to sit the cell phone down and pick up a beer at the local tavern.
One of the biggest things that separates me from the usual person, is I hate tourists. When I travel or go to a new city, I like to hang out with the locals. There have been many times when I was under age, if I traveled the locals would take me out to the bars for a night of fun. Locals always know the best places to go. Just showing up in a new city and asking what there is to do has gotten me invited to a number of cook outs, parties, and such. You can show up at some hole in the wall bar where you are the only person that is not a local. Every person there knows that you do not belong. Yet, every person there will buy you a drink just to get a little piece of your story. Before you know it, you are invited to an after party where you meet even more people. It has happened to me lots of times.
Just get away from you being the center of the universe and let others into your life. I see it all the time. When someone makes eye contact, it seems that 95% of people just look away. If someone looks at me, I am not afraid to say hello. The more people you say hello to, the more chance that there is that you are going to run into those women that are kind of deranged.
When was the last time you interrupted someone who was on the phone to say hello? When was the last time you said hello to someone who just seemed to be chilling? The more open you make yourself, the more people are going to approach you.
I see people too busy doing nothing. Do not forget that there are others around you. Go out and meet the locals not the tourists when you travel. Do not be afraid to turn off the cell phone and drink a beer with someone while discussing local travel conditions. I find that the tourists are closed off and are wrapped up in what they are doing, not willing to think about anything else. The locals are more open, like new people, and are willing to show them their home town.
Go out and meet one new person a week. I am sure that you will start to have some stories of your own. Take a trip once a month or every couple of months, and talk to someone new when you get to your destination. You will start to have weekends where you did not have to pay for anything and someone else flipped the entire bill.
The more you talk to people, the more human interaction that you have, the more likely you are to see and hear people instead of just pass them.
Hell, I went off on a rant and do not know where to go with this… perhaps….. done
Kenley says
Inbetweener,
Thank you for the apology. It was unexpected and very much appreciated.
Lance says
@Thomas, #49, love the advice on unplugging and meeting new people! I couldn’t agree more.
Wanted to comment on some things you described earlier. Some people (men and women) are naturally very laid back when it comes to the escalation of a relationship. I’m this way, and I definitely put no pressure or push into moving a relationship along, sometimes to my detriment. I attribute this to my Gemini personality, BTW. I know some guys and some girls who are the opposite, ie they want to know NOW and need constant motion (I know some Virgos who are this way).
Anyway, the trick is finding two types who match each other in their personal impetus for relationship movement. Or, barring that, two excellent communicators who are willing and able to compromise on the issue.
Cilla says
Ha! Frustrated Virgo here!
While I have a couple of guys who seem to be moving things along at a pace that feels “normal” to me (still obviously at the non-exclusive stage), there is one man with whom I’ve been corresponding who drives me crazy. Just when I think he’s not interested or putting me on the back burner, he calls and we talk for hours (he lives several hours away). The conversations have been very substantive, but also fun and flirtatious, and it seemed like we were making a real connection last time we talked.
He texted me from the airport before a trip last weekend, emailed me when he got home Sunday night, and has been texting me all this week. But no call, no mention of meeting. Normally, I’d say he found some hottie closer to home, but he’s one of those rare enlightened SNAGs (Sensitive New Age Guys) who may actually be waiting to see if I call him. I’m still following Evan’s advice and not initiating a call, but it’s frustrating the hell out of me! I guess as long as I’m not serious about any one man in particular, I don’t have to cut him loose yet, but I’d like to meet him to see if we even like each other enough to keep him on the short list. You’re right, Lance, finding someone who matches your pace is important, whether you’re dating one person or several. I tend to be of the you-snooze-you-lose persuasion, but I suppose I need to accommodate men who don’t feel that way. And I’m sure as much as I feel like I’m on the back burner with him, someone else feels like I’m doing that to him.
A-L says
Another Virgo here, but I’m not sure if I’m in the “need to know, NOW” group as I’ve never broached the exclusivity conversation with a guy (yet). I’ll admit though, by the time things hit 6-8 weeks in, we’re seeing each other 3+ times a week, and that doesn’t necessarily leave a lot of room to be dating other people if you actually have a life outside of dating.
happygirl says
I think this post is really very helpful. I have learned a lot. Not always the easy way as I am the type of person that always like to see the good in people and maybe others might see that as gullible. So the person I have been emailing me cancelled the date the second time. As Evan says it is not so much what they say but it is by the actions a man takes that know if they are interested or not. Am I disappointed. Yes definitely. Will I get over it? Yes I will. I guess I am still learning valuable lessons.
Thank you all for your feedback. I just had to learn how to move on again. Letting myself twice stood up is just once to many times.
Peter says
People need to stop focusing on the bad stuff. Be yourself and let him be himself. If you can’t accept him for who he is, then just get away and try someone else. Life is too short.
The InBetweener says
Uh oh. Too many “perfectionists” are starting to rear there heads. :-O
moonsical says
I thought being stood up meant they did NOT call to cancel, which really is not okay. Not that having two cancels is cool…
moon
starthrower68 says
To Lance and Cilla about Virgos: I am a Virgo and that is a frighteningly accurate description of me. The one I met on a particular social networking spot stalled out; he’s gone dark for a third time and this time I refuse to worry myself silly worrying about what I did wrong. I decided that if he were truly interested in me, he would have done something about it, and now I need to be a big girl and just move on because I’ll be darned if I’m going to chase anyone.
Jennifer says
@Moonsical#57 agreed, that’s my understanding of what ‘stood up’ means as well. Two cancellations is bad, but not nearly as bad as truly being stood up.
downtowngal says
“You try to learn what games to play, or how to figure men out, or how to make him commit to you. It’s all bullshit. There’s nothing to know beyond what we’re DOING.”
Oh, so true, Evan.
Lately I’ve been meeting guys who for one reason or another don’t seem to want to make the effort. For example, I’ll go on a date, have a nice time, if I like the guy tell him at the end how I enjoyed meeting him, and he’d say, great, well give me a call if you want to go out again”. Talk about a turnoff! I take this as a ‘thanks but no thanks’, that he’s just not into me, then move on.
Some of my friends think I should follow up, that that guys, esp when they’re older and have been single for too long, can be so jaded that they’re afraid. This tells me that the reason why they’re still single is because they don’t WANT to make the effort. If the woman does, she gets nowhere because the guy is either turned off by her perceived agressiveness or he just uses her as a convenience but won’t really commit to her.
Getting off topic here, but my point is that the OP sounds like she’s on the right track, meeting lots of guys. If he’s looking for marriage and kids you’ll know within a few months, esp if he’s in his 30’s.
And Ben, keep trying! Women like it when a man takes the initiative. If she thinks you’re being too ‘clingy’, unless you’ve been calling her 10 times a day after the first date, she’s probably not the right one for you; maybe you’ve been pursuing the wrong women. Don’t let your experience jade you, there are plenty of terrific women out there who’d appreciate a great guy like you.
moonsical says
downtowngal…I know what you mean, I think. I had a date with a man a month or so ago…older…divorced…already has his boy…he was like this: “I’ll call you or you call me.” Whatever. But, it was his demeanor and behavior through dinner that told me he really isn’t serious about finding anyone. Some people are just playing at it still.
However, if there had been a spark, or some interest, but he just seemed a bit lacking in confidence, it’s a good time to pull out a welcoming line like, “I’ll take the, ‘you call ME option.'” I’ve had men I was close to explain to me that sometimes they really need the invitation. Some really are shy/not sure you like them/afraid they are going to screw it up/just had a weird experience, or whatever. Without pursuing “aggressively” I think it’s okay to give a little wink, so to speak, if you like them.
moon
Re: men who are, “clingy,”: if a man makes frequent contact due to anxiety, it does turn a woman away. I recently had a friend who, sadly, lost a GREAT girlfriend (in my opinion) because he would get anxious when they were apart, even calling her cell multiple times when she was out with her girlfriends. Pacing oneself and dealing with oneself is key. Heck, get professional help if you need to.
downtowngal says
moonsical, good points. I know some guys are confused after a date and are not sure if the woman likes him, so by my saying, ‘I really had a nice time, would love to do this again’ should be a clear signal to the guy that – well – “I’d like to do this again”. Esp after he took the initiative to call me for the first date.
But if a guy’s response is ‘ok, call me’ as he’s avoiding eye contact w me, and starts walking away I take it as a blow off.
As for clingy guys, you’re spot on. But I’ve also seen cases where a nice guy dates a woman who’s really not into him, and she complains that he’s “smothering” her. In one case, the guy wasn’t going all OCD by calling her every 2 minutes, he was being chivalrous – wanted to pick her up at her place, take her out to dinner, call her the next day, etc. But this woman was so used to dealing with jerks she wasn’t used the nice guy; in truth she wasn’t into him, so this relationship didn’t go anywhere.
downtowngal says
Brings up another thought – some guys are either too sensitive to what a woman says or they’re using it as an excuse not to commit.
For example, I dated this one guy I really liked, and he mentioned that he wanted to married & have kids, and that he saw us going there (he raised the topic, not me). After a month I was getting mixes signals from him. At the same time he complained that things ended w his previous girlfriends because they wanted him to commit because their ‘biological clocks were ticking”, also, that at age 42 he hadn’t had a relationship that lasted more than a year.
One time after calling him on a pretty crappy thing he did to me (similar to what he said he did to other women he dated), he blew up & told me that he’s not ready to have kids and this is the trouble w dating women my age (I was 34 at the time), blah blah. I didn’t even mention kids or marriage, we had been dating for 3 months at this point and I hadn’t even considered him my boyfriend.
So that was the end of that.
I’ve heard men complain on a first date how they can’t stand how women, after dating for a few months, want to start having babies. What that tells me is that this guy was jerking these women around and they just wanted to know what’s up.
Bottom line: actions speak louder than words. If a guy is being jerky or sending mixed signals, no matter what kind of family life he wants he’d be a terrible husband.
moonsical says
Hey dtg,
Agree: no eye contact, not good. Some men believe if they made the effort for the FIRST date, it’s all in your court now, which is interesting. Maybe even a little petulant about it. It sounds like that is not the case here.
Re: clingy/smothering/chivalrous…in the eye of the beholder perhaps? It’s said men fall faster than women, when they do. Sometimes I’ve been put off by a man’s attention (that seemed too much for me) just because it seemed pre-mature, i.e., we didn’t really have that much going yet. Once I am into a man, I welcome more attention, the little chivalrous things and the bigger things. I think women weigh things out and are more practical for the long run and perhaps don’t want to be viewed as, “his woman,” before they are so moved. That’s me, anyway. But perhaps your friend really is acclimated to jerks!
moon
starthrower68 says
dtg, it appears you have observed the same sort of behavior that I have also seen. I don’t think that women are ready to start having babies after a few months. I do think we do like to know we’re not in a dead-end fling. I don’t really want to be involved with a time waster. If things are going well, then I’m perfectly content to sit back and see what happens, but the minute he turns flaky, then it’s time for me to move on. There is a difference between taking things slowly with someone and being with someone who’s ambivalent or just with me until something they think is better comes along. Good post.
downtowngal says
Thanks, starthrower68. You said what I was thinking in a more concise way.
tunder says
Thank you so much for this advice!!! I have stopped freaking out now and am calm – your advice stopped me from making a HUGE mistake!
BetsyG says
Wow, I feel like I’m at the feet of the master. I mean, some of that stuff I know, and I always tell women if they want to get married, don’t hang out in a dead-end relationship. Absolutely. But the clarity you bring to it…I know men pretty well, but I can never control my behavior. At 47 (divorced and dating) I am still trying to figure it out. I love this simple rule.
Check out my blog if you want to read about someone who makes a ton of mistakes…(that’d be me…)
Hot Alpha Female says
Evan.
I completely see what you are saying when you say for the man to lead and for him to make the decisions.
I think its important that when women are in relationships that they stop pushing for the next step.
The next step to being exclusive, the next step to moving in, the next step to getting engaged.
Some women think .. well i need to know if he is going to commit and then wonder why he seems to be getting more distant.
But think about it? If someone, anyone was being really pushy towards you … how would you feel. Would you want to do whatever you had to do MORE or less?
The same applies here.
Hot Approach Coach
Approach Anywoman, Anywhere, Anytime
moonsical says
Hunh. For me it’s the men always pushing. Once a (younger) man I was dating proclaimed to me, “I’m looking down the tracks, and I’m not seeing any train coming!!!” We’d been dating about six weeks, maybe two months. Why not slow down and let things proceed at their own pace? This must be why I’m still single: typically I don’t, “fall in love,” quickly, the way they want me to. I’m enjoying things and taking it as it comes, but not all ga-ga…
moon
starthrower68 says
LOL! Moon, it does feel as if we ladies can’t win for losing, doesn’t it? Perhaps you’ve found the key to being pursued; you don’t “fall in love quickly”. I would argue that a woman’s readiness for relationship, marriage, etc. is biology and socialization. Thing is these days, the only reason a woman needs to marry is because she WANTS to. We can earn our own money, fix our own cars, etc. I’m not saying men aren’t needed or wanted. What I am saying is that women don’t have the same norms in this day and age. Many of us are so worried about pleasing him and getting him to want us, that it doesn’t occur to us whether or not we find him desirable. We have to shift our perspective. Evan has said more than once men know they have options. Well, so do women; more than we realize.
moonsical says
Hi Starthrower!
Well, the only thing I can figure is many men are used to more high-drama ladies. Also, I personally lack a boilerplate template for marriage. My parents divorced just before I turned 6 and neither re-married, though they did have relationships. I admire and revere the state of marriage, and hope to have a happy and healthy one myself, but I’m not driven to marry at any price.
Having said that, I have noticed many men seem inherently insecure. It’s almost as if they need constant reassurance that they are attractive, wanted, needed, smart, etc. When it seems I have to shore up a man’s confidence just so he can believe I like him or want to go out with him, it is tiring. The man for me is (at least relatively) happy with himself, and understands his value and wants to share himself with me and have FUN! I have had a few, “greats,” unfortunately, when I was too young to settle down!
But, anyway, it has happened that ex beaus go on to a super high drama mama, sometimes even marry her, then get divorced (in every case I can think of,) all on this crazy roller coaster ride they think is, “love.” Guys, wise up…not to be wary, but…realize the one who WANTS WANTS WANTS you might not be the one. It probably has nothing to do with you. Oddly, put a little time into a woman who seem fine with or without you, who seems level-headed and thoughtful, whose company you enjoy and around whom you feel happy. Does she really smile when she sees you? Is she open and caring? Then let nature take its course, which it will, if it’s the right match.
moon
BetsyG says
Either I just sent you five e-mails via your contact form, or your contact form is broken. I tried it in two browsers. Hope that helps.
cosmicgirl says
I just want to add my appreciation for the very simple, but true, advice you give Evan. I wish I had read it earlier having spent over 3 years making excuses for my on/off commitment-phobic boyfriend (now ex). Prior to my involvement with him, I had always thought of myself as a woman with a healthy dose of self-esteem but over the time we were together, he reduced me to an insecure shadow of my former self. He continually let me down, periodically he would go emotionally awol and eventually ditch me by text, before getting in touch a few months later and starting up with me again and making me believe I could trust him again. I was a prize fool and I now realise that I let him treat me badly by not drawing a line in the sand earlier. Sorry, I will not go rambling on with my own private story but suffice to say, your words have made a difference and I will be keeping them firmly in mind when I am ready to date again. Thank you.
starthrower68 says
Hello, moonsical! I think you make some good points. Could it be that the self-possessed, self-assured woman is seen as requiring too much effort? Such a woman has standards; I’m not talking about a laundry list of requirements, but such a woman knows what she’ll tolerate and what she won’t and she had solid boundaries in place. I also believe that the histrionic, highly emotional woman is probably seen (though I would not know from personal experience) as a wildcat in bed. Evan said himself that men look for sex and find love and vice versa for women. In short doses, that’s probably great for the guy who has no intention of settling down and committing to one woman. I suspect when a man is ready to make that transition, he realizes it will become quite tiresome very quickly.
starthrower68 says
Cosmicgirl, might I recommend “What Smart Women Know” by Julia Sokol and Steven Carter. Evan, I don’t want to step on your toes by recommending this book, but I found it to contain a great deal of wisdom and insight, and I thought it confirms pretty much everything you say. Ladies, our hearts are precious and to be treasured and cherished.
moonsical says
Hi Starthrower,
I’ve always thought I was rather low-maint, tho’ requiring patience; I do have sometimes change course. Lol. Like one time I got my man out of bed (afternoon nap) to go get some ice cream then just as we were getting our boots on I was like, “The moment’s passed.” His eyes bugged out, then he laughed. I am emotional, as well, and need a man who can roll with that. Some men think there’s something, “wrong,” but others just go, “It’s a woman thing.” It is. But I draw the line at a lot of things…
Men who look for women to do it all for them (even stimulate a hot chase) wind up with a woman who manipulates and controls them. Most extreme example…a man I broke up with (because he was frequently depressed, which happens, but wanted me to make his choices, which ain’t gonna happen) latched onto and married a gal (they were pregnant) who threatened to not nurse their child if he didn’t do what she told him to! Many more nuances to this than I will ever know, but small community and some frightful stories. They are no longer together (her choice I hear) and thankfully, she found her power and is much healthier now. Phew. But anyway…so, yeah…if you need someone to make you do things you should do yourself, like return calls, get a life, or commit, or what have you…think on this.
The best advice I’ve seen–Steven Covey–was to be principle driven. When I read it I recognized much of my own philosophy.
moon
starthrower68 says
Moon, I agree with Covey, especially in the area of relationships. Our best bet is to keep our emotions in check and stand on our values. The decent ones will respect that and the not-so-decent ones won’t, and you want to weed those type out anyway. As I was reading Evan’s post again, a lightbulb went off at “let him do what he wants. If you like it, stay, if you don’t like it, go”. To frequently women (and I have been guilty of this) behave as if a relationship just happens to them. What Evan’s remark really made click with me is that we have more power than we realize. And by power, I don’t mean we rule over him with an iron fist. I mean that we have the power to decide. It’s really liberating to reach that point where you don’t worry about CHANGING what he does; if you don’t like it, you move on. Yeah, you may suffer some disappointment from that if you really like him, but it does uncomplicate things. Keeps you from going nuts by over analysis. Evan’s philosophy does not say a woman just has to sit back and be agreeable no matter what. We always have that option to bail, but we don’t like the dissapointment of hopes unrealized. However, that is much easier to get past than being in a situation that is not good for us.
moonsical says
If only the mens weren’t so inclined toward those highly charged situations…too bad more don’t read Evan’s blog!
moon
starthrower68 says
LOL! I hear ya, moon! The world is full of “if onlys”. But I’d rather be me than them!
moonsical says
Certainly I don’t long to be anyone else. I am, however, troubled that it seems so difficult to find a relationship of depth and love. It’s often it *seems* 1) I must be doing something terribly wrong or 2) The “good” ones really are all taken. It took me quite a while to even want to be coupled/married.
Having said all that, I know of few marriages I admire and many (most?) of my friends that married earlier are now divorced. So, there may have been some wisdom in waiting, but now what? Doing nothing seems to lead to more…nothing! In my experience(s) men do not seem to be all that motivated.
moon
starthrower68 says
Moon, I wish I had some kind of magic bullet cure, love potion, or such to offer. I agree with you, it is troubling, and what makes it more so is knowing that we can’t make it be different. Of course I could say “embrace life without a romantic relationship! Get a degree, take up a new hobby, blah blah blah”. And those things are good for us and fulfilling. I also know that’s not what you really want me to say because those things don’t satisfy the deepest longing of a woman’s heart. The best I can do is offer to stand with you as a sister in the struggle, LOL! At least we girls can lean on each other!
mellowgirl says
Evan, just want to say how spooky it is that I am going through this same exact situation and I just happened to come across your blog during a slow time at work. I’ve been dating a guy for nearly 5 months now only seeing him once a week and I should have ended it a long time ago but we have such a great time together when we do see each other. I will definitely take your advice to heart the next time I see him (will probably be the last time too!)
downtowngal says
moonsical, said about guys,
“It’s almost as if they need constant reassurance that they are attractive, wanted, needed, smart, etc. When it seems I have to shore up a man’s confidence just so he can believe I like him or want to go out with him, it is tiring. The man for me is (at least relatively) happy with himself”
Amen! It just goes to prove the old saying that if you’re happy with yourself you’ll find a happy relationship. Yes, an ego boost is important to guys, but if you’re one who’s constantly proping him up so that you can ‘impress’ him at the beginning, this sets a bad tone for the relationship nd flies directly in the face of what Evan’s advising.
I also agree with what was said above about guys who end up with these high maintenance psychowomen. I think it says as much about the guys as it does about the women, that they need someone who is co-dependent on them in order to feel loved.
And I disagree that women who have it all together emotinally are seen as having standards that are too high. I’m pretty even-keeled but I’ve put up with a lot of crap in my love life because I didn’t set boundaries or have the confidence to figure out what I want and stand up for it. Now I’m wiser and better at spotting the ‘red flags’, and understand what things are really important in a relatinship (hint: it has nothing to do w eye color, height, etc.)
Seductress Within says
“1) Let him do what he wants.
2) If you like it, stay. If you don’t like it, go.”
This should be a woman’s dating gospel!!!!
Determine what you want. Define your terms in regard to timelines for commitment. Don’t “talk” about it, men don’t want us to “talk” about it.
Watch him. If his actions fall into place with your desired goals and timelines, lucky you. If not, break it off and find the one who’s will.
Just make sure your goals and timelines are realistic. Wanting to “define” the relationship and expect exclusivity after one month is a bit pre-mature for both parties. Take your time getting to know each other. What is the rush?
starthrower68 says
Seductress, I think there are signs or a certain “vibes” a guy gives off if he has no intention of ever taking things beyond a casual friendship level. I agree with you about giving things a reasonable amount of time, but if I can tell he’s never going to be serious, then I’d just as soon move on. Of course if I’m not that into him, I’m not going to care anyway.
The InBetweener says
You know a “SURE FIRE” way to “tell” is to ASK HIM. Nobody usually ever dies from that. AND, it shows M A T U R I T Y .
As an alternative to TRYING to become a “psychic”. Enough time SHOULD be allowed in order for things to naturally take it’s course. I notice though, more so than not, that MOST older women usually “ACT” as if they are pressed for time.
I personally have an unmeasurable amount of respect for “WOMEN” that actually care enough about “themselves” to ask.
Seductress Within says
Starthrower, absolutely! I agree that there are signs and vibes that men give off without ever having to say a word, that’s why I said “watch him”. A man will show you and or tell you when HE wants to reach each step of the relationship.
We shouldn’t steer conversations toward “clarifying” a relationship, coax them into wanting us, nudge them toward commitment. Yet so many women do and wind up waiting for him for years to catch up to her. And sometimes he never does. That is giving our power away.
If after a reasonable amount of time (and no nagging or hinting) if the man isn’t bringing up marriage and that is what she wants, all she has to do is tell her guy “I love you so much but I think we may have different goals for our relationship and therefore I’ve decided to move on” And she has to mean it, be ready to break up.
If he truly loves her and doesn’t want to loose her, HE will be the one to say “whoa, wait a minute….what? I’m not letting you go”
She hasn’t pressured him, or nagged him for months, she just stated her desire, made a decision and allowed him to do the same.
A confident woman in control.
If he lets her go, she has her answer. If he begs her to stay, then HE will be the one opening up the “define our relationship” conversation.
Or he just might produce a ring.
starthrower68 says
To InBetweener,
While I understand your point, that’s not the advice women seem to get from the experts I’ve seen. Asking, i.e. “the conversation” is always highly discouraged. It’s got nothing to do with trying to be psychic. The red flags are there if they’re not ignored. I care about myself a great deal, but I don’t have to ask him where things are going. Watching what he does will tell me what I need to know.
The Seductress Within says
InBetweener, Robyn said this:
“anytime I want to gently “clarify” what he wants (kids, family) nearly each and every guy I’ve dated shies away”
This woman doesn’t have a problem ASKING. Asking, for her seems to be the very thing that is scaring them off. Maybe besides asking these men for clarification she is also giving the “relationship” vibe too soon. Becoming the pursuer…It’s been a month. Why is she looking to define things so soon?
She already has her answer. He’s not pushing for exclusivity yet because he doesn’t need or want it yet. When a man doesn’t want you to see anyone else HE lets you know.
Jennifer says
@InBetweener #87
I think that comment is missing the point that Evan is trying to make with his post- no one needs to ask anyone anything. If someone is behaving in a way that you like great- you stay, nothing to ask. If someone is behaving in a way that you don’t like- you leave, nothing to ask.
Kenley says
I think on the face of if, the do nothing technique sounds great. However, the underlying assumption of that view — an assumption that I have to question — is that men know exactly what women want and when they want it. I just don’t know if that is true. Sometimes men aren’t giving women what they want because they don’t actually know what women want not because they are unwilling to give it to them. If women don’t ever tell men what they want/need– not demand from them, but simply tell them what they want, how will men ever know? Second, sometimes, a man thinks he is giving a woman what she wants, but really isn’t. Again, if you never tell him, how does he know? So, I agree with InBetweener — right in the beginning tell the guy what type of relationship you are seeking and what your needs are and ask the same of him. Then, if he isn’t giving you want you want in a reasonable time – walk. I just don’t think it is especially productive for men or women to try and read each other’s mind because we typically have no clue what the other is thinking.
starthrower68 says
Kenley, there are always going to be those exceptions to the rule and situations you speak of. Evan is speaking in general terms, and is addressing the situation specific to the original poster. I think we all pretty much know that each situation has to be taken on it’s own merits because people are different. There are those men out there that are wishy-washy and flaky, men out there with good intentions but don’t know what to do about them, and men that have good intentions and know exactly what to do and do it without hesitation.
downtowngal says
Jennifer sez: “If someone is behaving in a way that you like great- you stay, nothing to ask. If someone is behaving in a way that you don’t like-you leave, nothing to ask.”
True, but this only pertains to the big stuff. If a guy’s doing something you don’t like, I don’t see anything wrong with calling him on it; otherwise, he’ll keep doing it, how else would he know? There’s no need to drop someone just because he said/did something you didn’t like.
That said, there’s a difference btw a one-off event and repeated behavior. I think Evan’s point is that certain things you can’t change about someone, and if the guy doesn’t seem as if he’s on the same page as you in terms of what you want from a relationship, then all the talking/calling him on it won’t work.
Jennifer says
@Kenley and downtowngal- I see what you both are saying and I agree. I just disagree with the InBetweener’s comment and feel that it is not the direction Evan was going with with his post.
I agree that we shouldn’t expect people to read minds, and that people shouldn’t be dropped for causing the slightest offense- especially if they didn’t know they were being offensive. But the whole ‘hey, where is this relationship going?’ line of questions that women end up asking men is pretty unnecessary.
Sara Reed says
Wow – I love the simplicity of it, reminds me of the viewpoints in “He’s just not that into you”….if he likes you he’ll ask you out, if he doesn’t ask you out he’s just not that into you. For the most part that’s how I try to live my single life, saves a lot of wasted time on analysing men. If he’s not asking me out he’s not interested – period. I don’t think all women are good at sitting around just ‘doing nothing’ (I’m guilty at times)…we wonder and people tell us – but he might be nervous around women, he may be afraid of rejection, he might not know you are interested so he doesn’t want to risk rejection, blah blah blah. I’v even had guys tell me this. So confusing…anyway, I think it’s just a fine line. The woman let’s a man know she would like to get to know him and he then has the confidence to ask her out, she let’s him know she enjoyed the date and his company and he has the confidence to ask her out again. I think we sometimes jump the gun thinking ‘oh shit, maybe I wasn’t flirtaceous enough and he thinks I’m not interested, maybe if he just knew he’d call’. Yeah, that’s how it seems a woman’s mind can work and if hers doesn’t work that way you can bet she has five female friends whose minds work like that convince her to ‘do something’.
Sara Reed´s last blog post…Romantic Marriage Proposal Ideas
aud says
I’ve just ventured onto this site and have to say it’s the most informative one I’ve every come across. I’ve just re-entered the dating world after six long years in the wilderness. I found someone via internet dating and now realise why I haven’t dated in so long . . it’s hard work 🙂 I wish I had the ‘don’t do anything’ advice long ago, simple but brilliant. Anyway my question is not new but I have been dating for four months now and got my man a card for christmas stating ‘to my boyfriend’ well he freaked out a little and to cut a long story short said he didn’t want to put tags on current situation, we had a long talk and he wants to take things slowly as he is currently in counselling to deal with some issues and needs some space, but is happy to keep thing as they are. I however have just finished counselling so I’m ready for something more pernament, but really do enjoy his company. I’m more of a ‘all in’ type of girl, I’m 37 and he’s 31 so maybe i’m just in more of a rush than he is. What to do? Do I stay and wait for an upgrade in relationship status or bail out now, either way I’m going to get hurt.
Honey says
aud, I think 4 months is PLENTY of time to wait before defining things, and the counseling is just an excuse. I would say “I’m sorry you’re not ready for more because I am, I care about you and hope you get what you need out of counseling but I have to do what’s best for me and end this relationship so I can find what I need,” and have done with it.
Best of luck!
Honey´s last blog post…Snowboarding, Sickness, and a Breakdown at the Grocery Store
starthrower68 says
What I get from what Evan says about “do nothing” is that we let the guy pursue, if he will, and we can be open and gracious. I think it takes a little practice to learn to be open and gracious while maintaining our objectivity. I went on a blind date the other night, and while I wasn’t dazzled, I was pleasantly suprised. I’m open to giving the guy a chance to grow on me because he appears to be of good character. I’m please to report that I’m at a point where I’m content with my life currently while positively anticipating what is to come. I have a great relationship with my children, I’m busy with my church which is a 2nd family, and I’m finally pursuing the college education that I’ve always wanted for myself. So if things with this guy don’t go anwhere, I’ve lost nothing because I’ve created a full and rich life for myself. I’ve gotten some real revelations from Evan. I believe that I’m in a place where I can take that knowledge and apply to dating situations, and it will be interesting to see what pans out.
Dating Tips Guy says
Also, the less desperate you seem, the more likely he’ll want to stay with you. Just sayin…
Dating Tips Guy´s last blog post…Jan 8, Worst First Date Ever!
Jaye says
I enjoyed this blog post. I think Evan’s advice is golden. It took me years to figure this all out, and I just kind of figured this out with my current significant other. Most women never do.
Men will do what they want to do, and it’s not that hard to figure out what they’re about. You see what they will do on their own volition…whether it’s asking you out, calling you, intimacy, meeting parents and friends, engagement, etc. For the most part, there is no need for complaining or “define the relationship” talks. There is nothing worse than having a man comply because you “pushed” him, because you never know where you truly stand with him.
jmee says
very helpful. of course, if i had known this before i accepted his proposal of marriage, was engaged for five years (and no, i did’t ask, and no, i didn’t push…in fact one of his complaints is that i didn’t! wtf?) and then spent too many years trying to figure out why he pulled the plug but still cycles around every so often to tell me he has feelings for me, i wouldn’t really appreciate these words like i do now… red flags everywhere and i just kept thinking i wasn’t trying hard enough, wasn’t giving enough. i was doing all the heavy lifting and he was getting a free ride emotionally and physically for too long. after 2 1/2 years he shows up on my porch again wanting to get caught up…and then wanting to have sex…because he likes to talk to me, and he isn’t getting any younger and he’s lonely. pitiful. this time, before i saw this discussion on line, i saw him clearly. he said we knew each other better than anyone else. he said he still had feelings for me or he wouldn’t be back. he also said he just didn’t know where he would be in the next year and he didn’t think we got along well enough to be permanent (you can see why) and he asked to be intimate inspite of all this. which allowed me to see he doesn’t really know me at all because i have never done the friends with benefits thing and never will and have been very clear about that. it has been a painful lesson. but at least there isn’t anything left to DO! : )
FlowerChild says
Evan, I have to say those two words “do nothing” were so profound. It was as though the heavens opened up and God himself gave this advice and it has resonated in my soul ever since. I’m not sure if it was minutes or hours (o.k. maybe a couple of days) after this insight before everything came together.
I had been hyper-focused on a man I was attracted to who took me out once, didn’t kiss me good-night and I never heard from him again. Yeah, initially the realization that he just wasn’t interested kind of stung . . . but what a relief to just let go of the wondering and frustration. I “did nothing.” And then (again was it minutes, hours, a day or two?) I suddenly saw what was right in front of me all along. A man I’ve known at work for a couple of years asked me to lunch. I must have looked like a deer in headlights I was so caught off guard.
Once again, Evan, your advice totally hit the nail on the head. I have just watched and observed (and yes mirrored) and this man has shown me exactly who he is and has guided me into a really solid, happy, relationship. He stepped up, set the pacing (a little slower than I’m used to but it’s so nice because I have gotten to know him and enjoy him and feel very safe when I’m with him) and has shown himself to be one stellar guy – a much higher caliber of man on every level than the one I was obsessing about – but it never even crossed my mind that he was even in “my realm.” (Again, your advice of looking outside of usual “type” at play here). It’s been easy and natural with no drama or frustration.
Thank you for the best advice I’ve ever gotten. I sent a copy of your blog to my daughter because I am so amazed at how effective it is. Next I’m sending her your book.
Do nothing. It works quickly, simply and perfectly – with no effort at all. You’re awesome. Of course I am a huge fan of yours now and I highly recommend your materials. Best advice ever! Just warn your readers they can expect miracles (in minutes, hours, or maybe a couple of days).
Jordan says
i’ll probably leave the first negative comment ever on this and i hope i get some responses to it. Evan Katz in my honest opinion you’re advice is bs, women don’t have to do anything? so men do all the work in the relationship that is what you are saying. Girls just have to say yes?! wow what a frekin privelage it is to be a girl i sure as hell would not mind being one. 95% of men are “the wrong men” what the hell is that bs?! women are just as wrong as men as men are for women why can’t we human beings just be equal? correct me if i’m wrong but basically evan katz’s implied message in my opinon is “women are superior, and they shouldn’t have to put effort into a relationship” yup women must be so hard to just say yes right?
niti says
THANK GOD. I have read soooo many articles about how to deal with men, and this by far is the best ever.
This has immediately made me feel a ton better, and this will certainly be something I read again in the future.
If only I would have seen this years ago, I would have saved myself a ton of heartbreak.
THANK YOU.
It is so easy, and just knowing this finally makes me feel free.
JoeK says
@Jordan
Sigh…you really missed everything Evan’s been saying, you even answer your own question:
” 95% of men are “the wrong men” what the hell is that bs?! women are just as wrong as men as men are for women why can’t we human beings just be equal?”
Yes, *by definition* if 95% of men are the wrong man for a given woman, then 95% of women are the *wrong woman* for a given man – they’re EQUAL!
There’s nothing “wrong” with the men, nor “wrong” with the women…they just are a “wrong” match!
Stick around Jordan, read some more. You may find that Evan knows a thing or two (This from an older man who’s been reading Evan’s blog for about 4 years now – trust me, he KNOWS what he’s talking about most of the time).
GL says
This is good advice I think I’m going to have to live by. The ex has returned (again), and he is an alpha male. He told me last night he doesn’t want to feel committed because at the moment he still wants his “freedom,” (he got done with a 5 year relationship full of drama and crap, and I behaved like every man’s worst nightmare). I explained to him that I’m all about him doing what he wants but I want consideration, a source of a few problems, which I handled terribly. At any rate, I have to let him do what he wants, he is absolutely that kind of guy. It will be interesting to see if this goes anywhere, he obviously cares about me. He won’t let me go. He can’t go more than 3 days without having some form of contact with me. Says he won’t sleep with anyone else, so I guess that’s a form of commitment. He also said we could have been together if I hadn’t pulled the crazy girl behavior. I guess now’s my chance to turn it around. Life is weird, and for the first time in since I met him I feel zen. I owe some of that to these blog posts.
Adriana says
It depends on the two of you. I woduln’t marry anyone without knowing them real well first and the whole abstinence thing? To late for that.. I broke that little V vase (virginity) long ago..Hell, I smashed in into a wall then crushed it to powder with a hammer.I’m to old to play the I don’t live with people thing.. I want to know how the keep house, how they make messes, who they invite to the house, if they’re good in bed, if they take baths often enough, can they cook? The whole 9 yards.. i don’t like surprises.
Lucinda says
Such brilliant advice. It should seem so obvious but it is not. Thank you Evan.
Heather says
That is the single, most profound, simplisticly raw and truthful article that I have ever read, of which I have absorbed into my psyche and now made a part of my new mantra. It is amazing how as a woman (and a Gemini on top of that), that I can take a situation such as a first date with a potential new partner and treat it like a Rubiks Cube; overanalyzing every aspect of awareness by turning all the variables over and over again, trying to get our “colors” to match up. Yet instead, it should be more analagous to a 1950s Prom dance leaning up against the gym wall waiting for THAT guy to ask you to dance. Until that point, enjoy the sights, sounds and smells of the atmosphere and smile! Thank you for the amazingly simple and curt advice that needed to be articulated as a reminder just to chill! I believe it is going to make all the difference in my dating life, even though, duh…I feel like the dumbest smart woman after having such an epiphany! Lol
Ang says
Wake up call.cancelled the Valentine’s Day gift, a wicker basket of international beers and snacks to his office.
Why do this if he is “too busy” to initiate contact first?
I am just going to move forward. Surprisingly, I got a text last night from a different guy I dated who I have NOT contacted at all because I focused or kept thinking about the one I really wanted. No contact since January 4th on his end. He doesn’t mind me calling but he never intiates so I am not a priority. So it is time to give good men a chance,sit back,relax and let the chips fall where they may.
The gift is awesome but he doesn’t deserve it.
Katie says
Congrats, Evan. You’re a class A, #1 misogynist. It’s humans like you that continue to silence women for the purpose of maintaining gendered hierarchies that virulently oppress women. “Do nothing” (and continue to be taken advantage of?). You’re so gross. Strong woman here, DOING.
Evan Marc Katz says
Nope. No hierarchies. No oppression. Just letting women know that they don’t have to chase men down, because a guy who likes you is willing to call you. Sorry that you think so poorly of me. Best of luck.
JennLee says
I’m so glad that I have a healthier view of men, and also actually like being a woman. It allows me to actually understand what Evan wrote without adding in some weird conspiracy to it.
Silence women for the purpose of maintaining gendered hierarchies that virulently oppress women? *chuckle…snort*
Katie says
Evan – Well, let me clarify. I don’t think poorly of you, per se, but I did not agree with the article–or perhaps, its wording. Thank you for further clarifying your intent. I do apologize for my strong words. Best wishes.
JennLee – Yes, and those hierarchies have little to do with liking being a ‘woman’ or not. VERY simply put–gender inequality is one example of a gendered hierarchy. You should read Joan Wallach Scott’s book, Gender and the Politics of History (here it is on Amazon: . Try not to laugh at all of the horrifying things that gender inequality (and those absolutely NOT funny hierarchies) has done to women throughout the ages. It’s just disrespectful to laugh at those things, JennLee. I hope you learn more about women’s history and can find time to reflect upon what is left to be done to make women’s lives better today, as we continue to experience the unfortunately long-lasting effects of decades of gendered hierarchies (surely, you’re aware of that annoying gender wage gap…). Anyway, take care.
Lisa says
This is why I will be perpetually single. It’s not in my nature to be the “cool girl.” I am honest and upfront about what I am seeking and if I am interested I have no problems letting a guy know. I see courtship as an equal playing field not a man chasing me. You say don’t play games but me pretending to be someone I am not is playing games and putting on a show. Not only does that not make me happy but I’m not sure it’s quite fair to the man. The man will fall in love with a version of me that is not reality. Then later when my real personality comes out he will feel fooled. I’ve never wanted to marry I don’t want children but I would like a committed monogamous relationship and in dating I do like to know where I stand. I just want someone who wants the same things is upfront and consistent about his efforts and loves me for who I am. I appreciate your perspective and love your columns but if finding a man means I have to pretend to be a different person and play games I will be happily single.
Dalynn says
Exactly what I needed to hear. It’s great to know I’m not alone at rushing, over thinking, dyinggggg for him to say something. The truth is…he shows me a lot! Fortunately for me..my instinct has to been to be available and say yes! I do need to find interests of my own so that im not lonely when he’s busy…this has been the hardest part for me..since I’m afraid I will busy when he calls and I never want to say no. thank you for rhis great read and advice!
Danielle says
Doesn’t get much clearer than this! Honestly, I’ve learned more in the brief period I have been following Evan, than I have learned in my entire life. AND … the best news … everything he says WORKS. It’s like MAGIC. I feel sometimes like I just cracked code and men don’t have a chance anymore! haha.
Angela says
I’ve been reading Evan’s blog for a couple months now. I’ve been trying to apply some of the advice to my dating world, which is mostly frustrating at the moment. So if someone can offer a suggestion or insight on this scenario, I would be grateful.
I met a guy online 3 weeks ago, we’ve had two dates since then, which went great, we both had a fun time and there seemed to be a good connection-mentally, physically. His follow up (or lack of which resulted in MY following up) is throwing me off. And then this happened: I checked to see if he was online (because I was thinking about the ‘exclusive’ /sex conversation) and saw he disabled that account. We had a date planned for the next day and he then cancelled it for family reasons. I asked him about disabling his profile and his response in text to me was “I don’t feel like I need it anymore so I got rid of it 😉”. Ok…that could be good, but still not very informative. My cringe moment- I asked him again to clarify in which he replied with a goofy ‘selfie’ shot and avoided the question, but then said “I’m not talking to anyone else if that helps.” I had suggested getting together another day after the cancelled date, said he would “let me know” which turned into him not being available that day. And now the communication has come to a halt. I’m trying the “don’t do anything” approach and to wait it out, but that is really difficult. I feel like I’m getting mixed messages and I’m at the spot of damned if I say anything, damned if I don’t. Thank you for reading this if you have and any tips are welcome.
DeeGee says
My initial reaction to your story is that he is not interested.
Any guy that was really interested wouldn’t leave you hanging or disappear on you.
jay says
Best advice I heard I read after a few months if they can not say they want u tgeir using u but that’s not always true n women should stop rushing things I been seeing someone one almost 2 months n I thought he didnt want me I have now learned I may have been wrong. Am 25 with no kids I will just hope for the best thanks
Susan says
Evan,
I’ve been following this advice with a guy I’m currently dating but it back-fired on me.
We’ve been talking for over three weeks now and I let him initiate the conversations. It’s been great for me because I know he’s interested in me but I guess not sp great for him.
He said what he’s looking for in a partner is someone who will give as well as take and it includes initiating conversations- not just responding, particularly after we’ve met.
We are going to talk about this tomorrow but I guess I took your comment too literally? I hope we can still work it out – if he’s interested he will want to work it out.
Wish me luck!
Rafael says
This is terrible advice. Let the man do everything? What if the man isn’t comfortable with making every single serious move when it comes to moving the relationship forward? Why is it the man’s responsibility to lead 100% of the time? What happened to women being equal partners in the relationship? If you want something (woman or man), say it. There are so many other reasons why a relationship may be stagnating, so putting all the weight on the guy’s shoulders is ridiculous. Many guys would like their women to communicate what they want, even to lead, and it’s articles like this that cause so many mixed signals in relationships. Better yet, it’s the reason why less assertive men get a bad rap for not being “confident” enough because everyone in society tells you that men are “designed” this way when more often than not they’re TOLD to act this way and can’t stand the burden. “He won’t kiss me, he must not like me.” THEN KISS HIM. “He hasn’t given me a ring but we’ve been together for two years.” HAVE YOU EVER TALKED ABOUT GETTING MARRIED WITH HIM? Talk to your man and evaluate the situation with your own gut. Nothing else matters.
cc says
I wish I read this years ago, it would have saved me a lot of wasted years trying to figure out what a guy really wanted out of the relationship. Pay attention to what he does, and what he says. Don’t try to rephrase or rethink “what he really meant” or excuse what he said or did. If nothing changes in the time you expect it to, you need to move on. Life goes by too fast and you can’t replace 5, 7, 10 yrs you spent trying to change a guy.
Nat says
Wow, such a beautifully simple message. I agree dating seems to go much smoother when women are on the passive side, because then women don’t waste energy on men who arent stepping up, or in other words on relationships that arent meant to be.
Carmen says
Hallo,
I do totally agree with what you say here. BUT:
my date is german (and I am spanish). And if you have 5 minutes to spend on the internet to read about dating german men, you will find out they are incredibly shy and will let the woman do all the work (first steps, asking out, first kiss etc). There is also a song about it (Aurelie)…..so, your rules here seem impossible to apply….and so??? I am lost
Linda says
This is interesting advice Evan is giving here and which I came to realise (with some sadness) is the best approach women who have been hurt in love should take.
The downside which Evan and all commentators have ignored is what becomes of the woman – like me, age 43 – who is never approached, never asked out on dates, and has never had a long term relationship?
What does she do?
The answer is clear. In personal relationships, unlike your career or pursuit of a hobby, you’re getting what you’re getting, and you’re not getting what you’re not getting.
It’s not ok, it’s not fair, but that’s how it is. The rest is noise.
lala says
Awesome advice…. I’m 28 and I’m also dating I have a guy I really like the most and things are going great… no pressure no drama and I text him he calls me I don’t worry about if I’m doing the right things or not I jus Do what I feel.he says im consistent and he likes that…. stay positive and kno that things will work out the way they should.. with him or someone else point it.. IT WILL… my guys birthday is on my gmas birthday r.i.p. I think it was a sign… good luck folks
KC says
im sorry but i dont 100% agree. i think u shouldnt put anything on a timeline, however, both parties should make an equal amount of effort in a relationship! it really just depends on the guy and the girl and how they think. plus if u just let him “do whatever he wants” – thats possibly letting down her wants and meeds and vice versa – basically both parties should express what their wants and needs are.
for example, after a period of time has passed, i let the guy know my needs such as hey i dont need to see u everyday but a couple times a week would be fine. i think when partners 100% communicate their wants and needs, there shouldnt be an issue and more relationships would be successful. if rather have a guy say “hey im not sure how im feelin can i have some space for a week” rather than pull away and go dead silent without him communicating his wants and needs. its called consideration. i just dont tolerate excuses or being put on a pedestal or being an option. id rather have a man give me a straight “yes” or an “f off” answer than a maybe, that makes me feel like hes dangling me. if rather call him out on it politely than keep my mouth shut anyday.
Elle says
This is the best advice ever!!!!
heather says
This is such great advice. The control freak in me always wants answers but whenever I date with this attitude, it goes nowhere. And let’s face it, you really can’t control what people think of you or what actions they are going to take, so it’s a useless endeavor. Plus, when you chill back and act nonchalant, you get to see men for who they really are because they’re not going to be defensive. Then, take it or leave it. In most of my past post-divorce relationships, I ended up leaving because it’s not what I wanted but I don’t blame the guys. They are who they are.
Myra says
I completely agree as a woman who has been way too forward and planned marriage proposals in my head on the first encounter only to get played. The thing to remember is these men and women we are meeting have had plenty of dates and partners before we met them and some are very smooth charmers so much of it can be a line when you meet them only time will telll.
I agree with Evan. Let them take charge and if it isn’t within your time table and gets to be too infrequent for dates can say something, bail out nicely or block them on your phone,
No ones should be waiting weeks for a man to call them especially when so many single men are online seeking out new women to meet the next evening! Would they do that if they were serious about a future with a woman they just met, “no”!, I doubt they would want to mess things up with her.
And watch out for the signs. If a man is driving you home from a date in the beggining when you first met and says he is going away on a trip for work, to see one of his children, etc. that is a tip off you won’t hear back from him (I never have), and men who say they are going out of town, well its more than likely that’s another he’s just not that into you excuse.
If someone really likes you and doesn’t have someone else they are seeing already or are in a physical relationship with, you can tell by when they call and see you. There’s no excuses- babysitting grandchildren on Saturday evenings?, putting you on ice, asking only for last minutes dates unless its to see you more often, you just need to now and listen at first what a man says as Evan mentioned that’s when they will be the most honest and then judge by their actions not their words..and if all else fails.. block them on your phone so you don’t get tempted to pick up and if you unblock and do.. at least you will have broken the pattern and will wake yourself up to the fact that this person has let you down and is not giving you what you want, making you happy and is not your destiny either.
Good luck it’s slim pickings out there!
Lola says
“And if we don’t call, don’t commit, and don’t propose to you (all in a reasonable amount of time), then guess what? We’re not going to.”
So what is a reasonable amount of time? I big time bought into this philosophy, so when a friend of mine (dating a man 2 years her junior) expressed frustration about not getting engaged yet after 5 years, I told her it might not ever happen and she should consider breaking it off if it was really that important. She didn’t. He eventually proposed two years later. Is 7 years dating a reasonable amount of time. That’s a long fucking time in my opinion.
Granted she was 29 when he finally proposed, so young enough to not be in panic mode. This also happened to a colleague of mine who dated her husband for 9 years before he proposed, she was only 30. Same with another friend who had 3 children with a man before he finally proposed. She was 28. So if you’re in your twenties and in a good, comfortable relationship, I wouldn’t be too quick to move on because he is taking his time to propose.
Now that I’m 34, I don’t think I’d even wait more than 3 months to have a discussion about kids and marriage. By the time I’ve dated someone for 90 days, I expect that conversation to be more natural at an age when most, if not all, of your friends have already made that commitment. It’s what I want, and though I don’t have a major timeline for when marriage occurs, I’d definitely like to be pregnant within the next 3 years.
I can respect the advice of don’t do anything, but it gets increasingly difficult as you get older. I want a partnership and I want children. I have already considered what I will do when I turn 36, which is probably trying to have a child on my own if I am single. That’s definitely not doing nothing.
Apryl says
This may be a late reply… I didnt look to see when the article was posted but I will say this: I have been married twice, with tons of dating other men. A guy either likes you that way, or doesn’t. You cannot force it… Thus the 2nd divorce… Lol. It is really hard to see loving, compassionate women go without a marriage and children that they so desperately crave. On the other hand, it is horrible to go through a divorce with someone that never really loved you and have to deal with the emotional scars. I wish her and the other good single women out there good luck! Give someone a chance that you ordinarily wouldnt… Love can be found where you least expect it 💗
TimeIsGold says
I like some of what you said, however men play so many mind games in relationships that sometimes us women have a reason to question things. All I’m saying is that yes we should leave the guys who don’t take us out, or introduce us to their families, or propose after 6 years. However, men need to grow up, state what they want clearly from the beginning, and not waste everyone’s time. If you know from the get go that you don’t want to be with her, stop sending mixed signals. This women should do nothing advice might work for some, but sounds passive. Everyone has a voice and should use it, especially when figuring out relationships.
Izzy says
Although I do agree that men are better understood through “efforts”, the woman shouldn’t shy away from being clear on what she may need from the relationship, hookup, marriage, etc. Men can be so oblivious of what the woman has construed in her head and although they were showing interest in one another, that lack of communication usually becomes the trigger to unfortunate events in both parties, but one or both walk away thinking that neither were really into moving forward in any direction all together. I think I’ve been known as the cool chick but I’m also in my early 30s and I am not into the whole bouncing around, so I’d prefer to directly get a hold of my guy that I’d like to get to know better. After 3 attempts of “But I have work”, “Sorry I” and you get the picture, I didn’t find my place in his life as someone he wanted to see again. With previous partners, I’ve been advised that they always come back because some guys like to keep girls they really liked on a back burner. Sorry I’ve said no to every one of them.
Emily, the original says
Izzy,
With previous partners, I’ve been advised that they always come back because some guys like to keep girls they really liked on a back burner
I’m not a man so I can only speak from the female perspective, but why would someone put a person they like on the back burner? Wouldn’t the back burner (if you were inclined to put someone on the back burner, which seems selfish) be reserved for second and third choices?
izzy says
Yes, that’s exactly it! Thank you Emily, the original. This advice was from a males perspective and it can usually be controversial. When I was told this piece of someone’s advice, I instantly contested that fact and it usually turns out to be that persons loss if they decide to come back into another’s life after realizing that they are not emotionally open to them anymore. I don’t know about other people but I don’t like to be someone’s second or third choic. There are plenty of other people to connect with where we find each other to be our first choice.
v says
@thomas, if you dated me on that schedule I’d be long gone. You aren’t relationship material, quick trip to the friend zone if that.