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He is a salsa dancer and always chooses the young sexy girls to dance with. We are in our mid-forties and sometimes I find his behavior repulsive. I have chosen to no longer go out to these places with him because I feel like I cannot compete with young 20-somethings…nor do I want to and he loves the attention he gets from being a good dancer.
When I approach him on his flirty behavior with women, he claims it is a sexual energy on the dance floor that he finds exciting, but it does not mean that he wants to sleep with them. My fear is what happens when one of them wants to sleep with him? He does not want to stop, yet he wants to stay in this marriage.
I do not want to be in a relationship like this and have let him know that I want to leave the marriage. He wants us to stay together with our son, yet continue this lifestyle. My question is this…am I just insecure or is he crossing the line when it comes to dancing with other women? If we do stay together what are so me boundaries that will make me feel safe in this marriage? —Candace
I have written extensively about this, so you should probably read a few of these posts.
And as much as many of my readers would tend to disagree, this isn’t nearly as black and white you might think. You’re emotionally caught up right now, Candace, and it’s hard to find an objective point of view.
While infidelity itself may be an absolute deal-breaker for your relationship, flirting itself may not be — especially within the context of an otherwise good marriage.
Now, you’ve left a lot out of your email that is important to consider. Without this information, it would be impossible for me to tell you what to do. So before you file for divorce, you should probably consider these mitigating factors from your devil’s advocate dating coach:
First of all, how is your marriage? It may seem like a silly question, given how upset you are, but apart from his interest in looking at/dancing with pretty women, what does the rest of your relationship look like? Is he a good provider? Does he spend a lot of time with you? Is he a solid communicator? Is he an available father? Does he have anger issues? Has he ever actually cheated on you or talked about a divorce?
All of this stuff matters, in my humble opinion.
Because while infidelity itself may be an absolute deal-breaker for your relationship, flirting itself may not be — especially within the context of an otherwise good marriage. And yes, I say this as a flirt and a good husband as well.
Next, let’s dive into his actual offenses:
He’s a good salsa dancer. You used to go with him. Now you don’t because he enjoys dancing with and impressing younger women. That opens up the door to more questions: does he leave you sitting alone while you’re out dancing? That would be rude, but can’t you just as easily dance with other men? As a former salsa dancer, I know that partners generally rotate, instead of staying with each other all night — especially in classes.
Which makes me wonder: are you just getting upset at what could be considered normal behavior? After all, salsa is an inherently sexy dance. Should your husband refuse to dance with women who are younger and prettier than you? Should he pretend not to enjoy himself with them because you feel insecure?
One CAN watch porn with younger women (and enjoy it) without acting on it. It’s pretty normal, as long as he’s not a porn addict and it hasn’t killed your sex life.
I know it’s hard to field these questions because you want to assume he’s guilty. Still, in the interest of objectivity, I have to go under the presumption of innocence until he’s PROVEN guilty. So what exactly does your husband do that is so repulsive? Does he ask these younger women for their phone numbers? Do they sit on his lap after the dance? Does he kiss them or squeeze their asses? Or does he, you know, just dance and smile and hug them after they’re done, which is pretty standard practice. Unless he’s doing any of those overtly sexual things, I would be forced to conclude that he’s enjoying salsa dancing the way it’s meant to be enjoyed.
Understand, Candace:
One CAN flirt with someone else (and enjoy it) without acting on it. It’s pretty normal, especially if a couple is secure in their relationship.
One CAN watch porn with younger women (and enjoy it) without acting on it. It’s pretty normal, as long as he’s not a porn addict and it hasn’t killed your sex life.
So what we’re really talking about here is getting clarity on his actual flirtatious behavior and weighing your own insecurity. I don’t know the answers to either.
I do know you’re assuming his behaviors are bad because you’re hurt by them.
But I have to ask if you’re being hurt by behaviors that aren’t inherently hurtful.
Would a more secure woman, like, say, my wife, laugh off the same things that are causing you to consider a divorce?
I don’t know the answer, because I don’t know the answer to the questions I’ve asked you above. However, before you do anything rash, I think that you need to assess your own level of security and weigh it against his actual behaviors (not his fantasies). Your husband may be insensitive but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a cheater and that you should throw out your marriage because of it.
And before we get started with the comments — if any woman is going to disagree with me below, remember, you don’t know the answers to Candace’s questions either. You just know that you’re sensitive to her needs and less sympathetic to her husband. Try being impartial and attempt to see how he MIGHT be innocent before you react to my call for more answers.
Julia says
First of all, how is your marriage? It may seem like a silly question, given how upset you are, but apart from his interest in looking at/dancing with pretty women, what does the rest of your relationship look like? Is he a good provider? Does he spend a lot of time with you? Is he a solid communicator? Is he an available father? Does he have anger issues? Has he ever actually cheated on you or talked about a divorce?
I think you forgot to ask how their sex life is. I think this is important. If her husband doesn’t show her much sexual attention and is dancing with these young and attractive women, I can understand how she might be hurt. Other than that its good advice.
Robin says
TRUE. If their sex life is below par for either one of them. That flirting has got to stop.
Selena says
I’m confused. Has he been actively doing these things for the last 15 years, or is the dancing/porn viewing something more recent? If it has been typical for the last 15 years, why is the OP so upset now? Is there something else going on?
In any event it sounds like he has made it clear he isn’t going to stop this behavior so it’s up to the OP to decide if she can live with it. Might want to give counseling a shot before calling an attorney.
WhatsGoingOn says
I agree with Julia. I feel that there must be some other underlying issues here that we don’t know about because I find both partners reactions rather extreme otherwise. I mean if you were really in love with each other still then some compromise should occur – the husband should make some concession so as to not hurt his wife if it bothers her that much and certainly the wife should try to see why he needs this kind of interaction. Neither wants to give up anything.
I try to flip things around – if I liked to salsa dance and my husband says to me, “sweetie I know you like this but I can’t stand to watch you let strange men have their paws on you and leer at your boobs and butt and try to flirt with you. It makes my brain shut down, I see red, and I just want to go over there and deck them. I know there’s nothing going on and you are flattered by the attention but for the sake of my blood pressure can you please tone it down or maybe can we just find some other activity?” How many of you would think that sounded unreasonable or overly jealous or controlling? And certainly my response wouldn’t be, nope I like this, and I’m not gonna change. Either deal with it or take a hike. This marriage sounds like they’ve both lost connection and perspective!
Sandy says
Agree totally WhatsGoingOn. Our society makes too many excuses for men who do this.
S says
Hi
There’s too much support for the man here, especially about the porn. Would he accept his wife enjoying porn with young men?
Cheryl says
I agree, men shouldn’t be on porn! this is what ruins marriages my fiance was caught by me, on the Hangouts app talking so nasty to a girl, women in another country called ghana now I’m not sure what to do with this relationship but this woman nerds to set some boundaries w her husband it’s none right
Irene says
Way too much support for the man even. It’s like this sort of attitude is now acceptable for most men, while the women in their lives have no say and have to endure.
Karmic Equation says
Agree with Evan’s advice. You should answer those questions before seeking a divorce.
They say crazy people never question their sanity. Only sane people question their sanity. But it’s the opposite with insecurity. Secure people don’t question their insecurity because secure people almost always know when they’re being insecure. But those who are insecure don’t know for sure and always ask. So assume if you’re asking if you’re being insecure, that you are. And it’s OK to be insecure. But you do have a responsibility to address it WITHIN yourself. Either accept it and learn to control it. Or squash it like a bug! Takes effort.
That said, you didn’t mention your age, or if you’ve recently had a child, etc. If you’ve recently given birth, your insecurity could be hormonal. And if you’re peri-menopausal as well.
In addition to questioning whether it’s your husband’s behavior you might just want to check out if your dissatisfaction is caused by new, or more, hormones flowing through your body. They do affect your thoughts and feelings.
Good luck.
Jackie H. says
He should be more sensitive to her needs and insecurities…
Robin says
That’s right.
Sunflower says
Too many variables like Evan said. However, I agree with Selena. If OP new what he was like when she married him, then she’s getting exactly what she signed on for. On the other hand, if his behavior has recently changed and progressed over time, then there’s cause for concern and you need to find out what might be behind it so it can be addressed. Good luck!
Ana says
Here’s the thing: I believe in Evan when he says flirting can be innocent. It’s true, and some really secure women might put up with that and just let it go without really being affected. Great. BUT Candace is insecure, I don’t doubt it, and whether it’s herself or her insecurity is caused by her husband’s behavior he should definitely try to ease her and stop doing whatever is hurting her. Evan is right, he may not be a cheater and the husband may think it’s all ok, but WhatsGoingOn has a point: what if it was the other way around? Just stop it for the relationship’s sake and to not hurt you wife, even if you’re doing something innocent. What’s the point of hurting someone you really love? Relationships are hard work and sacrifice. Now, I would definitely not advice her to get a divorce, I see no reason, but some couple’s therapy could help. If does seem like there’s something else going on that could be talked about and fixed. Best of luck to Candace, her husband and their son.
Ruby says
The OP wrote, “ He is also into a lot of porn and it is the sites of really young girls that bother me the most.”
I get that men like to look at porn, but if I knew that my partner was looking at sites that featured underage girls, that would bother me. How young is “really young”? Is it child porn? Even if someone hasn’t cheated, living with a partner who constantly ogled other women/girls would be a huge turn-off. That said, I’d never marry someone who did something that made me uncomfortable from the get-go. She also writes, “He wants us to stay together with our son, yet continue this lifestyle.” What “lifestyle” is that? Sounds more like an ongoing behavior than a lifestyle. In any case, can’t the husband make an effort to tone down these behaviors for the sake of his marriage?
CBC says
“Even if someone hasn’t cheated, living with a partner who constantly ogled other women/girls would be a huge turn-off. That said, I’d never marry someone who did something that made me uncomfortable from the get-go.”
Spot on. I look for such things in a guy to start with and observe their behaviour. It’s surprising she’s stayed with him that long. Not all men are the same, and I have plenty of male friends who do not watch a lot of porn and are not entertained or turned on by it. These issues sound very individual to him. Never settle. There are plenty more fish.
Karl S says
I do Blues dancing, and like Salsa, it can look pretty racy. Even close to Dirty Dancing at times. However, for the people involved (except the odd creepy guy) it’s *just* dancing, and they are much more focused on enjoying the tiny weight shifts and movements of their partner than getting into their pants.
Salsa girl says
I totally agree with this. I have been dancing salsa and bachata for many years and these dances are inherently sexual and romantic. I have always been somewhat of a flirt but my fiancé knows that that is just the type of dancer that I am. I have been like that long before he met me and the day he asked to date me, I said I would as long as he didn’t try to take away my dancing. If her husband has been acting like that even before they got together, why should she expect him to change? I can’t imagining not being able to go out dancing every week. It is my one time to feel innocently sexy and beautiful and connect with different partners on the dance floor. Even if someone turns me on at the club, it is my fiancé who gets to reap the benefits when I get home and rip his clothes off 🙂
Karl R says
Ana said: (#7)
“what if it was the other way around? Just stop it for the relationship’s sake and to not hurt you wife, even if you’re doing something innocent.”
Think of the one thing you are most passionate about. Maybe it’s your job, your pet, your favorite hobby. Would you give that up for your husband or wife?
If you’re asking (or demanding) that your partner give up their passion for the sake of the relationship, or if they are asking (demanding) that you give up your passion, then the relationship is highly likely to fail. I’ve seen several relationships fail specifically because of this.
Perhaps Candace’s husband does need to be more sensitive to her insecurities, but if he ends up feeling stifled or suffocated by them, the marriage is going to end.
Candace asked: (original post)
“My fear is what happens when one of them wants to sleep with him?”
Like your husband, I’m in my 40s. Like your husband, I’m a good dancer. There are no shortage of hot sexy 20-somethings who are happy to dance with me.
None of them have expressed a desire to have sex with me. Either they aren’t interested in having sex with someone 20 years older, or they respect the fact that I’m married.
Candace said: (original post)
“he claims it is a sexual energy on the dance floor that he finds exciting, but it does not mean that he wants to sleep with them.”
That’s certainly true for me. My wife (who is also a good dancer) implicitly understands this. But you appear to lack faith in your husband’s willingness to stay faithful.
Candace said: (original post)
“I have chosen to no longer go out to these places with him because I feel like I cannot compete with young 20-somethings…nor do I want to and he loves the attention he gets from being a good dancer.”
He’s your husband. You already won that competition.
The attention I get as a good dancer doesn’t just come from my dance partner. It also comes from whatever audience I have. My wife isn’t going to be able to compete with an audience. It’s a different kind of attention. (She sometimes shares in that attention, since she’s one of my dance partners.)
I’m always going to have dance partners who are younger and more attractive than my wife. She’s always going to have dance partners who are younger and more attractive than me. If either of us wanted to compete that way, we both lost that competition long ago.
The same thing is true when it comes to skill. One of my dance partners is a four-time international champion. My wife will never come close to her skill. And the same is true in reverse. If you think the four-time international champion is good, you should see her husband (whom my wife occasionally dances with).
Why are you trying to compete? You’ve won the only competition that you need to. Any of the other competitions will just make you unhappy.
Have you even tried to learn how to dance? While it’s unlikely that you would ever catch up to his skill level (he has a few years head start), I’ve seen dozens of spouses (or significant others) close the gap considerably.
Valery North says
My fear is what happens when one of them wants to sleep with him
I think this is the telling point. The underlying (and false – I am sure I have seen EMK write about this before to discredit that myth) assumption is, if a woman offers sex to a man, then he can’t help himself and MUST say yes. My advice to Candace is that, if that is genuinely the question that bothers you in all this, and the source of your discomfort over his flirting, then the answer is that a man is as capable of saying “no” as anyone else is. Do you trust him to say “no” when a woman offers him sex? If yes, then you have no problem. If no, then it is worth asking yourself what the reasons for that distrust are. If he has given you grounds to believe he would not (or is too impulsive to) say “no”, then that’s something to consider. If he hasn’t given you reason to believe that, then maybe the reasons come from something you’ve been taught by society, or friends, or other men – something that may very well not be true of this man.
Morgana Rae says
Here’s what stood out for me in her letter: she doesn’t want to be in this relationship.
I think that says it all.
It doesn’t matter whether he’s right or wrong, a good provider, father, or husband. She doesn’t want to be in this relationship.
I think 15 years is plenty of time to figure out if this is what you want. And she has.
So she should end it.
Candace says
You are wrong. I do want to be in this relationship as I love my husband very much. Information that I left out was that my husband had an emotional affair on me when my son was born, and this was a woman who he was doing a dance performance with. I forgave him, and tried to move on, however the trust is still not there! I am also a very good dancer who loves to dance, but just not as much as my husband. Don’t be so quick to judge!
nancy says
I hear you Candace I would like my 32 marriage to be better for me to feel more secure.He flirts innocently and makes put downs iitowards me in public He must also be insecure.We are hardly ever on the same page when it comes to really important mayyers I feel like I am dealing with a narcissitic child. Always hoping he will change he is definitely better when I stand up to him Do not always want to do that
Robin says
I agree Candace. It doesn’t have to be actual sex to be cheating. That is where so many women get fooled.
Informtime says
Hi Candace, I happened to have been reading this post which identified with a great deal. It seems to me this is from a few years ago and I was just curious as to whether you work things out?
T says
Candace, I agree with how you feel and think about the situation. I love how it’s always women that are insecure because we want the attention of our partners, but men are never insecure for wanting/needing the attention of other women. Why don’t men also ask themselves why they need the attention of other women outside of their relationship, because that can also be an insecurity. We are human beings and have needs. The point in a partnership is to fulfill those needs together and talk about what those needs are. Be honest and create a safe place for one another. Woman are very loyal, so why can’t men understand that and meet us in the middle? We just want and are worthy of loyal partners as well.
Good luck Candace!!
Angie says
OP, I’ll echo some of the other posters. Certain types of dancing are sexual. flirtatious in nature. I also wouldn’t have cause for alarm. If you had instead written that he’s been doing this for the past 6 months, but he recently hones in on one woman who has 2 left feet but is gorgeous and decides to hang out with his dance buddies afterwards for drinks and doesn’t come home… yes, red flags, but this is how he has been for 15 years.
I don’t know. The other thing you may want to watch out for is avoiding John Gottman’s “Four Horsemen” (of the Relationship Appocalypse).
I know that I’ve dated an insecure person before who consistently hounded me for behaviors he deemed me flirting with other men… Laughing at jokes or chatting with them, etc. People can only give the same response to the same question or criticism so many times before they start to resent you for continuing to ask it.
If his behavior has been the same for the past 15 years, then that’s all there is to it. That is who he is.
Perhaps there is something in your life that is causing you to feel insecure? Has something happened with you that is making you feel “old” or unattractive? (Have you felt this way the entire time you’ve been married?)
In Lori Gottlieb’s book, she wrote something like the average happily married person can list 20 “flaws” with their partner, but they choose to accept them and love them despite all of this. I’d look inward before looking outward. Maybe this DOES have to do all with you… Like, did a previous boyfriend ever cheat on you with a girl you felt was hotter than you?
(EMK Note: Gottlieb was quoting ME, thank you!)
Cassie says
I think the dancing and the porn stimulate him sexually, making him feel virile and alive. He may be feeling less than “up to par” in some areas of life so he is excelling in this area; These areas stimulate him. He likes to be stimulated. Sometimes as men get older and their testosterone decreases a bit (it rages when they are 16…) they need more stimulation to feel sexy and even perform sexually. Maybe his ego needs to be pampered a bit by someone. It would be good if he felt stimulated and had his ego lifted by you. Is there a way for you to participate in any of this with him? He may find it stimulating to see you dancing and looking sexy with another man. Men are visual. He may also find it stimulating to watch porn with you. Perhaps there is some form of porn that the two of you could watch together? You might find it stimulating, too. Just a few thoughts…
WhatsGoingOn says
Karl R. – you argue poignantly that this guy shouldn’t have to give up his passion, his hobbies, because they could be his raison d’être. So let’s say he can’t give up salsa dancing. Let’s say he’s a poor misunderstood soul. What about his hobby of leering at other women? Or his hobby of going to porn sites with very young girls? That would sap his will to live too? What I’m saying is he wants to have her stay but sounds unwilling to give up anything at all. Doesn’t sound like a particularly savory relationship to me.
Karmic Equation says
Why does the guy get to call all the shots in a relationship?
If she doesn’t like his leering (much different than “noticing”; usually some sort of drooling is involved), she should tell him “You can look, but drooling is unattractive, so stop the drooling.” If he can’t do that then she should decide if his drooling over other women is something she can live with or not. If not, then don’t live with it.
As to porn, women are not going to win this battle. Men love porn the way women love romance novels and soap operas. Unless you believe you can sway most women to stop watching soaps and/or stop reading romance novels, then you should just accept that most men like porn.
And unless the guy is into child porn and/or is a porn addict, where he “must” watch porn every day or else he’s non-functional, then porn is just another hobby. Albeit not one most women can enjoy or understand.
Why do women love shoes? Why do men love power tools? It’s just the way it is.
Treifalicious says
“When we first started dating, I felt uncomfortable at how he would leer at other women in my presence, which made me feel that he wanted more. He is also into a lot of porn and it is the sites of really young girls that bother me the most.”
I Don’t Understand How No One Has Addressed This Part. he has been making her feel unatractive from day 1. She is probably sick of it.
Kiki says
I was once upon a time in a 5 year relationship with someone who was a huge flirt. He would hit on anything that moved, my friends and my sister included. He was in the military at the time, and explained to me that this is because he was so deprived of female company most of the time, that he needed to compensate whenever there were women around. We were both very young (late teens/early 20s). I must say that he was also very alfa: good looking, intelligent, and extremely charismatic, and my mom adored him. I tried to break up with him several times, and my mom would encourage me to make up because she thought he was such a great catch.
Our relationship did not survive; years later I realized he also was a serial cheater, and that due to my own inexperience I failed to see some obvious signs. Later in life, I made a point of dating (and eventually marrying) a man who was the exact opposite – introvert and really unskilled with women, just to avoid being so humiliated ever again.
I think that men who are big flirts are, more often than not, cheaters. My dad was one, and this ex-boyfriend I was telling you about, and many guys I have known socially. For Evan and Karl S and all the guys on this blog who state that you can be a huge flirt and perfectly monogamous – I take you at your word, but my real life experience shows differently.
To the OP I would say – sister – one very big reason for you to stay in this marriage is because you have a child, who needs to have both parents fully available to him. From what you descriebe, your husband is never going to change. You have already threatened him with divorce but he doesn’t care because the pleasure he gets from doing what he does significantly outweighs the discomfort of your nagging.
If you decide that it is worth keeping the marriage for the sake of your son, or for whatever personal reasons you have (like if he has other qualities that make it worthwile for you to stay or you still love him inspite of everything or whatever) you will have to give him the freedom to do whatever pleases him. Some people choose to have open marriages, and you may wish to consider this as an extreme option. Either way, if you wish to be together with him for the long haul, you have to give him his freedom to do whaterver entertainment he has which makes him feel good. You will have to find your own, individual sources of pleasure – for example a hobby of your own which you can do while he is away. From what I have seen in life, men choose to stay with the women who give them great tollerance, freedom and acceptance for all their flaws, but also have a full life themselves. I think it is less about your boundaries (what you would and what you would not tollerate) but about your ability to find and have other sources of personal joy and fulfillment beside your role as a wife. If you manage to do this (mind you it is not easy and I am still working cultivating these qualities in myself) no 20 year old will steal him. And if she does, and meanwhile you have your own fullfilling life – let her and the porn industry have him forever.
juliemc says
Wise words.
anon says
I dated someone like that – always flirting to the point that my friends and family were uncomfortable and did not want him around. Anytime I would tell him it bothered me he blew me off. I got rid of him.
Clare says
What’sGoingOn #3
“I try to flip things around — if I liked to salsa dance and my husband says to me, “sweetie I know you like this but I can’t stand to watch you let strange men have their paws on you and leer at your boobs and butt and try to flirt with you. It makes my brain shut down, I see red, and I just want to go over there and deck them. I know there’s nothing going on and you are flattered by the attention but for the sake of my blood pressure can you please tone it down or maybe can we just find some other activity?” ”
If a guy said this to me, it would push me away. Not because I don’t inherently want to compromise for the sake of a relationship, but because I want to be trusted, and because I feel that his reaction is his own issue.
That said, I am sensitive to a guy’s possible feelings of jealousy and I would never go out of my way to behave in a way that would make him feel uncomfortable, but if he is asking me to *change* who I am, I’m just not going to be happy. I’m not saying his feelings are wrong, but that is just not a relationship I’d want to be in.
I have also noticed how a relationship tends to open and flourish when you actively choose to trust your partner – they actually tend to behave in a more trustworthy manner. Law of Attraction – what you focus on grows.
Androgynous says
“I have been married for 15 years and my husband has always been attracted to very beautiful women/young girls”
It seems the husband has always been like this and I think they got married due to unplanned pregnancy or lack of other options. What was tolerated before seems to have become intolerable, particularly as children grow up and people approach mid life realising they don’t want another 15 years of this. People, particularly women tend to become more confident and assertive later in life. The husband seems to want to stay together only for their son, which is quite telling. To be honest, I think they are done.
Sparkling Emerald says
From the OP – I have chosen to no longer go out to these places with him because I feel like I cannot compete with young 20-somethings…nor do I want to and he loves the attention he gets from being a good dancer.
This stuck out like a sore thumb for me. She used to go out dancing with him, now SHE has withdrawn from what was once a shared activity. Not an effective way to build or maintain a close relationship IMHO. She doesn’t feel like she can compete with the 20 years olds ? That competition was over the day she signed the marriage license and she WON ! Other girls get to dance with him as a consolation prize, she’s the one he married, she’s the winner ! He loves the attention he gets from being a good dancer. So GIVE HIM attention for being a good dancer ! There is nothing to fear in this type of activity where changing partners is part and parcel of the activity. If he goes HOME with HER, then she has already won. If she’s stays home and pouts, she loses. She should get herself a sexy dancing dress, put on her high heels, give him the attention he loves on the dance floor, and make HIM feel like he’s the one going home with the prize !
Karl R says
WhatsGoingOn asked: (#15)
“What about his hobby of leering at other women?”
Candace said: (original post)
“When we first started dating, I felt uncomfortable at how he would leer at other women in my presence,”
WhatsGoingOn,
What hobby? Candace described it as a behavior that he did in the past, not a behavior that he engages in currently.
While Candace chose a loaded word to describe her husband’s behavior, she didn’t give enough specific details to indicate whether he stared at women more than other men do.
Furthermore, she said her husband is very popular with women in the dance community. There are a few men in the dance community who blatantly stare at women’s breasts. Those men are quite unpopular because of this behavior. The popular men are invariably a bit more circumspect.
WhatsGoingOn asked: (#15)
“Or his hobby of going to porn sites with very young girls?”
Candace appears to use the terms “young 20-somethings” and “young sexy girls” interchangeably. Most porn has women in their 20s. Unless a man searches for niche porn categories (MILFs, mature, GILFs, grannies), he’s going to see women between 18 and mid-20s. That might bother Candace, but it’s just the middle-of-the-road porn that’s out there.
If he’s looking a girls under the age of 18 (which is illegal), then that’s a separate problem. But Candace doesn’t even indicate that porn is the big problem (to her). She primarily seems to object to the dancing.
Joe says
“Leering” is often in the eye of the beholder. One person’s “leering” can be another person’s “appreciation.” Evan has more than one blog post about this: “my boyfriend likes to look at other women” or something like that.
And with the exception of MILF and granny porn, ALL the women in porn are young (certainly younger than the LW’s mid-40).
As another dancer, I agree with Karl R. There are tons of hot 20-somethings in the dance scene. Very few of them have an active interest in sleeping with a mid-40s bloke.
We do need more (objective) answers about the LW’s and her husband’s situation before making pronouncements about his guilt.
Selena says
@ Treifalicious #16
I don’t know if he’s actually made her feel unattractive since day one, but if he’s been doing things that make her feel uncomfortable all along… yeah, I can see how she might be sick of it after 15 years.
Sounds like they got together when they were around 30ish and are now in middle age. Perhaps she thought he’d outgrow the flirting/leering/porn whatever and he never did. And perhaps she has simply outgrown him.
Karmic Equation says
Treifalicious & Selena,
I think you’re jumping to the conclusions and picking a side automatically…hers.
If in fact he made her feel unacctractive SINCE DAY ONE, then why did she choose to be with him on DAY TWO. She should have walked LONG BEFORE she got married. She had the power to walk away and she didn’t. So now she wants HIM to change because HER feelings have changed. You don’t see anything blatantly unfair about that request.
He’s been living the same life, doing the same thing for ~5475 days. But on day ~5476 she decides she doesn’t like it anymore so he should change. I’m being facetious here, but the sentiment is the real. Why wait 15 years or why did she stay with him once she decided she was uncomfortable? Changing the guy isn’t the real option, she needs to change herself. I always advocate the woman exercising her option to leave. That doesn’t mean he can’t change his mind and change after all or that she can’t change her mind and stay after all. But really, if she thinks this is a deal breaker. Her job is to break the deal. Then let the chips fall where they may.
Androgynous says
Karmic Equation, I read Treifalicious and Selena’s posts and they did not say Candance should change her husband. They said Candace may have gotten to the point where she couldn’t accept it anymore. It sounds like Candace went into the marriage barely able to deal with it, but now after 15 years cannot deal with it anymore.
Should Candace have gotten married to this guy ? I doubt very much so but no one knows the circumstances of how they got together and why they stayed together – possibly because of their son. All the signs are there that theirs has not been a happy marriage for a long time. Candace and her husband seem to only want the marriage to continue for the sake of their son, with Candace wanting her husband to keep up appearances (possiby for the sake of their son).
It says a lot that Candace has withdrawn from her man’s life despite her so called concerns about “other women”. A woman who is truly jealous of her husbands attention and affection would not give him up like this, but would “compete” by doing her part in remaining vital and attractive to her husband.
Selena says
@KE
I’m not jumping to conclusions, I’m posing a possibility. I’ve never been on a date with a guy who leered at, or obviously flirted with other women. If I had there wouldn’t have been another date because I would have been turned off. I’d think the guy a) was rude and b) not very bright. I believe most men know it is not cool to leer and flirt with other women while on a date. Since the OP continued to date him, marry him and stay with him for 15 years apparantly she was not as put off initially as I would have been. Which is why I wondered in comment #2 if something else had happened more recently.
An alternative explanation is she was never really *cool* with some of his behaviours but she put up with them because she was young/infatuated/loved him – take your pick. Perhaps what seemed “rake-ish” in a 30 yr. old became creepy embarrassing in a 45 yr. old. Who knows? But she’s not cool with it now.
The fact is his behavior bothers her enough to tell him she is considering ending the marriage because of it. He tells her he wants to stay married because they have a child, but he ain’t changing anything. *I* think he might be a bit of a jackass, but ofcourse that’s just my own impression. You are absolutely right KE, if this is a deal breaker for her, she is going to have to be the one to break the deal.
Morris says
This is one of the hardest things about making a relationship work. It comes down to the fact that you can only change yourself. And you have to accept the person for who they are AND will become. It’s not only the fact that you can’t expect a person to change for you later in life.(If he/she was a dancer when you met you can’t expect him/her to give it up later because it makes you feel insecure.) You also have to accept that people CHANGE over time. And as long as it’s relatively innocent you really can’t control other people. If he/she recently picked up dancing and enjoys dancing… well you can’t tell him/her he/she can’t do that because it make you feel insecure. Those are YOUR issues. Of course there are limits. If he/she only dances with young hot girls/boys etc I can understand that. He/She should be more accommodating and dance with a variety of people.(Including young hot girls/boys. Can’t take away all the fun because of your insecurities.)
Henriette says
I’m curious, too, how much of her pain is caused by her truly thinking that her husband might sleep with another woman and how much, feeling disrespected by her husband’s behaviour. When I’m with a man who constantly leers at other women, I’m far less upset by the notion that he would actually bed one of these young beauties and than by the fact that it really seems rude and thoughtless to not consider how it makes me feel.
WhatsGoingOn says
@ Karl R. and Joe – I respect the fact that the two of you like to dance and probably identify with the husband’s situation. I don’t know much about Joe but it sounds like Karl R. Has picked a wife who enjoys it as much as he does and doesn’t mind it. The OP used to go dancing with him too.
But over time her views have evolved. She may be less pretty now and less immune to his flirting (she must have been somewhat immune if she married him). That’s what happens over time, people change, grow apart, age. The fear of an aging woman over time as she sees her husband dancing with younger women can be irrational and sometimes much stronger than any man can possibly understand. I pose a question and it’s not to be contrary but I want to know the guy’s perspective. If your wife in 15 years feels bad about how you dance (even if you didn’t really do anything differently) and wants you to alter your lifestyle, would you tell her you can’t do it, it’s your passion, and she has to get over her insecurities because they’re hers and not yours? But what if she can’t? Is it over?
I think the OP writes about a very real situation that happens in the mid 40’s of many marriages and can precipitate a divorce. It makes me wonder if I get to that point how I would react. I am confident in my looks and attractiveness now, and in our relationship. But in 15 years how would I feel? Would my husband be sensitive? Or blow me off? Even if the OP is just acting insecure, it comes from a well of deep hurt. Why can’t her husband just understand and empathize with her? Make some gesture? Maybe stop dancing for a bit to work on the marriage. I feel bad for her. She must feel very alone in her marriage. Why does he have to? Because he is 50% of this marriage and if he loves her he should want to protect her from hurt and make her feel safer.
Joe says
Let’s also not forget that flirting is also in the eye of the beholder. What one person might just consider mere friendliness, an insecure person might consider flirting.
Karmic Equation says
Androgynous,
You’re right. They didn’t say that LW should change the guy. I was reacting to the “man is at fault” sentiment underlying their posts…and the natural progression of that sentiment is if he’s wrong then he needs to change, and I ended up addressing the “he needs to change”. That’s where my post came from.
I believe that the reason most women don’t walk away is that they’re afraid there’s no walking back if they change their mind…again. Maybe after being away from him a bit, that wasn’t such a deal breaker and she was hasty to have broken it off and now she can’t get him back because he’s happier without her, but she’s sadder without him.
That’s why women need to really assess the behaviors of their men that make them unhappy and do a better job at distinguishing the “don’t like” versus the “can’t live with”. If women do that assessment in their relationships candidly, they’ll find that MOST male behavior falls into the “don’t like” category, especially behaviors that hit them at their insecurities. But instead, everything gets lumped into the don’t like and therefore, the men should change.
I say try to get the men to change only if it’s behavior you can’t live with…alcoholism, drug addiction…because these behaviors can have a serious impact on the relationship and both parties’ health if not changed. Then the behavior that you really don’t like, leering, flirting, etc. Determine if that is truly behavior you can’t live with, if yes, then break the deal, because these are behaviors that make YOU unhappy and HIM happy, but has no real detriment to the relationship except HER unhappiness. Why does she get to be happy but he has to suffer to get her there?
He’s not responsible to make her happy. It’s HER responsibility to make herself happy. She either walks away to do that, or changes her perspective and accepts that behavior. Both those options are up to her. Changing him is not an option for those behaviors that make HIM happy but HER sad and has no real impact on health or wealth (e.g., gambling).
Karmic Equation says
Rephrase…
But instead, everything gets lumped into the “don’t like” and therefore, the men should change.
Should read
But instead, everything gets lumped into the “can’t live with” and therefore, the men should change.
WhatsGoingOn says
@Joe – maybe in the early dating stages, but I think a wife of 15 years knows when her husband is flirting versus being friendly! If they don’t at least get that about the other by then, then that marriage is really in trouble! Should she be bothered by it is a different question. Evan’s wife knows exactly when he is flirting. She gamely calls him on it frequently. But she isn’t bothered by it because she is secure in their relationship.
(I’m an excellent flirt. I just don’t do it anymore. There’s no opportunity. I never leave the house. I don’t hang out with single people, just couples with kids. So not only do I never flirt around my wife, if I did, she’d never “call me on it”. Closest thing she ever did to “calling me on it” once upon a time was saying, as we got in the car on the way home from a party, “Wow. You had a little crush on her, didn’t you?”. Upon which I’d smile sheepishly and say “Yes. Was it obvious?”, and we’d move along. That’s how it’s done, y’all. – EMK)
WhatsGoingOn says
@Karmic Equation – while I see your point, I’d like to add that the can’t live with behaviors are likely broader than one might think. To me, they are behaviors that go to the heart of a relationship – that have to do with destroying trust, respect, love. These are different for different couples. What one couple considers minor may be a big deal to a different couple. Often what you are fighting about is not the real issue, there are deeper feelings involved that the conflict may represent.
Regarding changing behaviors, I agree that one probably can never change a person’s basic values and personality. But that does not mean that one can’t ever expect to change anyone’s behavior. It just depends on what that behavior is rooted in. Partners should be able to evolve and change together and how are you supposed to do that if you just assume your partner won’t be willing to listen and change and you won’t even give him a chance to try? You just leave him, just like that? One of the best tools in a relationship is to “accept influence” from your partner from time to time. Not change who you fundamentally are, but accept doing things your partner’s way from time to time to see a different perspective.
There are two major types of marital conflicts: perpetual problems and solvable problems. Perpetual problems are often rooted in personality characteristics and big issues like trust, selfishness, security, etc. Solvable problems may actually be just as painful and frustrating, but have so far remained situational and have not extended into the vilification of each other’s character. If the couple is able to make behavioral concessions they can still get beyond it before it becomes a perpetual problem. Most perpetual problems are those that have gridlocked. You will have the same argument over and over again. It does not have to result in separation. In stable marriages where this is a lot more positive going on, people can actually treat their perpetual problems with humor and compassion. “There he goes again, flirting with the waitress. At least we might get a better table!” In unstable marriages, since they never get resolved, people have lost the ability to cope with the problem effectively, start attacking character, and become entrenched in their positions. They start leading parallel lives and loneliness and resentment result. (Refer to Dr. Gottman’s research if you’re interested).
My take on this story is that this couple used to have a solvable problem — his perceived flirting, her discomfort. Instead of dealing with it and both adjusting some behaviors and perceptions, they let it turn into a perpetual problem. If the relationship were stronger, they could have dealt with this perpetual problem more good naturedly. But whatever is happening between them has destroyed the ability to reform connections and trust. But they could have adjusted their behaviors early on and avoided it getting to this point.
Karl R says
WhatsGoingOn asked: (#29)
“If your wife in 15 years feels bad about how you dance (even if you didn’t really do anything differently) and wants you to alter your lifestyle, would you tell her you can’t do it, it’s your passion, and she has to get over her insecurities because they’re hers and not yours?”
My wife’s ex-boyfriend was very jealous. If she spoke with a man, he accused her of having an affair with that man. Should she have stopped speaking to men, or should he have gotten his jealousy, because that was the actual source of the problem?
My brother-in-law’s ex-wife was very insecure. If he looked in the general direction of another woman, she thought he was planning to have an affair with that woman. Should he have stopped looking in the general direction, or should she have gotten over her jealously, because that was the actual source of the problem?
The ex-boyfriend and ex-wife didn’t become less jealous or less insecure over time. They became more jealous/insecure as time passed. If you decide to cater to your partner’s insecurities, where do expect to say, “Enough is enough”?
If my wife begins to have an issue with my dancing, we seek counseling. That’s the biggest concession I’m willing to make to irrationality.
Early in the dating process, my wife and I made an agreement: anything that’s a legitimate dance move is fair game on the dance floor. That was a pre-condition for our relationship. (We dance a couple styles that make salsa seem tame and formal by comparison.)
WhatsGoingOn asked: (#29)
“But what if she can’t? Is it over?”
Quite likely.
That may sound callous, but look at the situation objectively. If I stop dancing (eliminating a huge portion of my social life), my wife would still be insecure. How long before she started worrying about choir? I dated one choir member. I asked another one out (who declined). What about office happy hours? I have some attractive coworkers. To what extent should I end my social life to accommodate someone else’s insecurities?
Tying this into what Karmic Equation said (#31): if my wife has insecurities, that’s something I don’t like. If my wife wanted me to stop associating with my friends and acquaintances, that’s something I can’t live with. (If my wife can express extremely logical reasons to not associate with someone, like their criminal behavior, that’s a different story.)
I think Selena (#2) may be on the right track. There may be something else which is suddenly turning this into an issue. In a similar circumstance, I’m perfectly willing to discuss the “something else” with my wife and make reasonable compromises.
WhatsGoingOn asked: (#29)
“Even if the OP is just acting insecure, it comes from a well of deep hurt. Why can’t her husband just understand and empathize with her?”
If my wife feels insecure about her looks because she gained 10 pounds, I can sympathize (and possibly empathize). If she wants me to give up 75% of my social life because she feels insecure, my sympathy is going to vanish in a surge of irritation.
WhatsGoingOn said: (#29)
“if he loves her he should want to protect her from hurt and make her feel safer.”
I can’t protect my wife from herself. It’s just not possible. She has to choose to do that (or choose not to).
(Thank you, Karl. You said that better than I could. -EMK)
WhatsGoingOn says
@Karl R. — thanks for your detailed response. Let’s hope that your wife never develops any insecurities, then, because there’s not a lot of room for error. Though I suppose if she were prone to that sort of thing, she would never have married you to begin with. 🙂
With that I’d like to thank everyone for their responses. My vacation is ending so I will not be responding but it’s been very educational.
Selena says
@WhatsGoingOn #34
Interesting reading about solvable and perpetual problems. What struck me about the letter was that the wife had gotten to the point where she was thinking of leaving the marriage and the husband didn’t seem to care. To get to that point, I imagine there would have been many, many discussions about the behaviors/reactions over the years without any resolution.
It sounded rather like he disregarded his wife’s feelings and was only in the marriage for the child. If this is typical of their relationship, I can see why the wife wouldn’t feel ‘safe’ in her marriage. I suspect there may be deeper issues here that go beyond flirting/porn/dancing.
Karl R says
WhatsGoingOn said: (#36)
“Let’s hope that your wife never develops any insecurities, then, because there’s not a lot of room for error.”
If that’s what you think, then you’ve misunderstood me completely.
Hypothetical example:
Let’s say my wife gains some weight and starts feeling insecure about her appearance. That’s okay. Let’s say we get an invitation to a pool party, but she doesn’t feel comfortable wearing a swimsuit in public so she wears a sun dress and stays out of the pool. That’s okay. If she feels awkward going to a pool party and not getting into the pool, so she decides to stay home instead, that’s okay.
If she wants me to stay out of the pool with her (because of her insecurity), that’s not okay. If she doesn’t want me going to the pool party by myself (even though she’s unwilling to go), that’s not okay.
In one case, her insecurity affects her actions. In the other case, her insecurity affects my actions.
The bigger picture:
If Candace’s husband had come here for advice, I’d be feeding him tips about how to make Candace feel more secure, feel better about her looks, feel more integrated into the dance community, and feel good about getting out and dancing. Furthermore, I’d be explaining to him how he benefits from doing those actions.
But ultimately, her insecurities are more under Candace’s control than her husband’s.
Karmic Equation says
@WhatsGoingOn
what you wrote makes a lot of sense. I totally get it. And it sounds so good…but
The reality is that your description of a solvable versus perpetual problem is just pyscho-babble covering up the truth…Which is that women always want MEN to change and NEVER themselves.
I say every woman needs to own her own sh*t. If (generic) you’re insecure, address it or accept it. Asking a man to enable/feed that insecurity is never the answer. Because feeding it/enabling it doesn’t make that person less insecure. Paraphrasing Karl R, “An insecure person will just find something else to be insecure about. Another person cannot protect you from or solve your insecurities. Your insecurities are yours and yours only to solve.” — or maybe they may need a therapist to help solve, but you get my drift.
Karmic Equation says
@Selena 37
“I imagine there would have been many, many discussions about the behaviors/reactions over the years without any resolution.”
You’re probably right about this.
But it could easily be that the husband is sick of having to defend himself to her. How many times could he have said “Baby, I love you, I’m not having affairs with these women. I find them attractive, sure, because they are. But I married you and want to stay married to you. However, I’m not going to give up dancing.”
Maybe he got tired of saying that for the 1000th time…
There’s always two sides. The women is NOT always right.
This woman is clearly insecure. Whether that just happened or whether she always was, it’s still her problem. But it’s solvable. Separate from him and then see what happens.
Breaking the deal that doesn’t make her happy doesn’t mean she can’t forge a NEW deal that would, provided he’s not at the end of HIS patience with her.
Selena says
@ KE
I don’t think the woman is always right. If this post had been written by a man my thoughts would be the same.
West says
A good relationship is always better when both people find things they both like to do together. He sounds like a cad. I think salsa dancing is not as important as a good marriage and raising a child together. I cannot think of one happy marriage that has a man like this in it.
Julia says
@Karl R
I’m not sure how un-empathetic you are coming across right now. When push comes to shove we need to make small concessions to make the person we love happy. Evan advocates women do this all the time, I advocate that men should also do this.
So hypothetically, if your wife didn’t want you to go to a party because she was too sick to go, would you go anyways? My guess is that you would stay home with your sick wife and write off the party. If you think her asking you to change a small behavior occasionally is totally out of the question though, maybe you disregard her altogether. I actually agree with you on insecurities, I’ve dated very insecure and controlling men but I think aside from that, we need to understand and change our actions sometimes to make our partners happy. I don’t get why that seems like such a big ask.
Karmic Equation says
Julia,
Being sick and being insecure are two completely different things.
One is totally within your control and can be controlled with self-discipline.
No matter how disciplined one is, one can still get sick.
If she needs coddling because she’s sick that’s one thing; if she needs coddling because she’s insecure, that’s something else entirely different.
I’m sure Karl R can defend himself more succinctly, but your example was just silly.
Morris says
@Julia #43 – I agree that it should be situational. As in your case where the spouse is sick. But asking someone to stop dancing or going to pool parties because he/she doesn’t like it anymore or is insecure wouldn’t fit that description.
I also agree forums like this advocate changing behavior. However it’s your OWN behavior. Isn’t that the point. It’s one thing to change yourself to accommodate a relationship. It’s something totally different to ask someone else to change to accommodate a relationship. Why is that so hard to understand?
J says
Not liking the way someone is treating you doesn’t automatically make you insecure. I clearly can’t speak for the OP, but i would find the husbands behavior unacceptable because I feel it’s disrespectful, not because I’m jealous of the women he’s leering at or because I’m afraid he’ll run off with them.
Karl S says
Would you give up a passion and a community that is a significant part of your life because your partner told you to?
A one off party isn’t useful as a comparison.
Selena says
@47
Would you give up a passion and a community that is a significant part of your life because your partner told you to?
How would a passion and a community even become a significant part of my life if my partner of 15 yrs. felt uncomfortable about it? Why would I make that choice in the first place?
Dancing seems harmless and fun to me, but I can’t imagine it ever being more significant than my family.
josavant says
46 J makes a good point. There’s a fine line between insecurity and a healthy response to disrespectful behaviors. Not to say that Candace has always responded a healthy way in the past to her husband’s behavior, but now she is at the point where she will not tolerate what she considers disrespectful behavior anymore. Whether or not his behavior is really disrespectful is something we can’t judge based on only her words. But the point is that it hurts her and it hasn’t been resolved in a way that makes her comfortable.
I also noticed that she doesn’t write anything about the two of them loving each other. Love is conspicuously out of the picture. She doesn’t say she loves him, she also doesn’t say that he reassured her of his love when she threatened to leave. She only said that he wanted them to stay together with their son. That is a halfassed response at best. I’m sure he’s perfectly comfortable in this lifestyle, but that doesn’t mean that he loves her or attends to her concerns.
Ultimately, one can’t help but think that it doesn’t matter whether her response is from insecurity or if it’s a right reaction, and it doesn’t even matter whose fault it is. This doesn’t sound like a healthy marriage.
Rose says
I agree with morgana all that matters is what she wants and if they are a match.
If she doesn’t want a husband who flirts and dances with young girls and watches porn with young girls in it because it makes her feel bad that’s it.
Eithet it’s a dealbreaker or it’s not.
Only the OP can decide that and it appears that is what she has decided she doesn’t want that in her life anymore.
If he wants to continue doing those things and she doesn’t they are not compatible.
Sad but true
Karl R says
Julia asked: (#43)
“So hypothetically, if your wife didn’t want you to go to a party because she was too sick to go, would you go anyways?”
Depends on the situation. I’ll give you some examples.
If my wife needs someone to go with her to the doctor, the hospital, etc., of course I would skip the party.
If this is a party that I won’t particularly enjoy unless she’s there, I would stay home.
If this is just a regular party (a weekly or monthly occurrence), I would skip the party. She rarely gets sick, so we’ll be at another party in a week or three.
If the party was a rare occurrence (office Christmas party, wedding reception for a friend) where there were bigger implications, I would attend the party … unless she was gravely ill.
If she had a chronic illness (we have a few friends who miss about half the parties due to chronic issues), I would attend parties alone when she wasn’t feeling well. Furthermore, I think she would encourage me to attend without her. (Her father goes out dancing three nights per week, especially since his wife’s Alzheimer’s has progressed to the point where she can no longer dance. Various family members, including my wife, take turns staying with my mother-in-law so my father-in-law can get a break.)
If her chronic episodes seemed to mysteriously correspond to the dates/times of parties, I’d attend the parties. I’d also try to get us into marriage counseling to deal with her passive-aggressive behavior.
Julia said: (#43)
“When push comes to shove we need to make small concessions to make the person we love happy.”
Candace isn’t asking for a small concession. She’s asking for a huge one.
For men, one-time concessions are generally considered small. If Candace asked her husband to skip salsa on the Saturday after her birthday so they could go out together, that’s a one-time request. It doesn’t affect the other 51 Saturdays that year. Even if a woman makes a similar request for the Saturday after their anniversary, before & after Christmas and most holiday weekends, that’s still a series of one-time requests. Most Saturdays he’s permitted to dance salsa.
If Candace’s husband typically goes dancing three nights per week and she wants him to cut back to two, that’s a big concession. She’s trying to make a change which will have a permanent effect (or an effect for an indeterminate duration). Men tend to be very resistant to making these kinds of concessions. They’re slightly more open to them if you make a similar concession (which benefits them) in return.
But Candace isn’t seeking a big concession. She’s seeking a huge concession. She wants him to stop dancing salsa. (Or at the very least, stop dancing with the 20-somethings. In my area, most salsa dancers are in their 20s.)
What does her husband get in return? He gets to stay in the same marriage that he’s already in.
If Candace makes it an ultimatum, it might work once. It might even work two or three times. But ultimatums become cumulatively less likely to succeed.
Example:
A woman gives an ultimatum, “Stop leering at women or I leave.” The man stops leering at women. The woman then says, “Stop dancing salsa or I leave.” After much consideration, the man grudgingly gives up dancing salsa. The woman (feeling empowered by her successes) gives another ultimatum, “Stop watching porn or I leave.” The man decides to leave, even though watching porn means less to him than salsa dancing.
That doesn’t seem to make much sense, does it?
Why this makes sense:
When the man leaves after the third ultimatum, he gets to keep watching porn, and he gets to go salsa dancing as much as he wants, and he can stare at women again without getting harassed.
There are probably a dozen more things he gave up voluntarily just to make his wife happy (because they weren’t a big deal). He gets all of those things back too.
Selena said: (#48)
“How would a passion and a community even become a significant part of my life if my partner of 15 yrs. felt uncomfortable about it? Why would I make that choice in the first place?”
Four months after I started dancing, a married couple started dancing at the studio I attended. The wife learned quickly and enjoyed dancing immensely. The husband struggled at it and never reached the point where he enjoyed it. Two or three months later, the husband stopped attending dance classes, but the wife continued. By the time a year had passed, she was a very good dancer. A few nights per week she got a break from being a working mother. She got to pursue a passion which she excelled at.
Initially, the husband felt that dancing was harmless (even if he didn’t find it fun). Five years later, when they divorced, he blamed the dancing as the cause (according to a woman who dated him as a divorcee). He wasn’t jealous of her dance partners. He became jealous of the time she wasn’t spending with him.
People change. Candace used to join her husband when he went out dancing. Now she doesn’t. She married the man. Now she sometimes finds his behavior repulsive.
J said: (#46)
“i would find the husbands behavior unacceptable because I feel it’s disrespectful,”
My wife was born and raise with southern hospitality. I was born and raised in Detroit. For someone accustomed to southern gentlemen, much of my behavior is disrespectful. My wife decided to accept me, disrespectful behavior and all. Alternatively, she could have decided not to marry me.
Either choice is valid. But if my wife expects me to be a southern gentleman after our 15th wedding anniversary, I’m going to recommend that she get a CAT scan for brain lesions.
Candace should have decided the behavior was intolerable before the wedding.
I’m not saying that she has to stay in the marriage if it’s truly intolerable. But if she can’t make a decision about what behavior is intolerable before the wedding, her next marriage is going to be unhappy too. (Similarly, I think her insecurity will torpedo her next marriage if she doesn’t address it.)
msytdeski says
It seems like you spent a long time with this man; and I had a thought that maybe you are ready to change your life-maybe the agreement is really over for you, now. Maybe you learnt the lesson and have a wonderful child,too? Simple?
Once you separate you will feel empowered. Maybe?
josavant says
51 Karl – but we didn’t in fact establish that Candace is insecure, or if her concerns are valid. Also, there are different types and degrees of disrespect. Detroit manners don’t fall in the same category as openly leering others in front of one’s spouse, or eyerolling or yelling or constantly interrupting or put-downs… you get the idea, it’s unnecessary to go on. What worries Candace isn’t the first type of disrespect, but the second.
Selena says
@Karl R.
Your example of the couple who divorced was along the lines of what I was thinking when I answered Karl S.’s question. If I took up dancing (or any other *passion*) and my partner became bothered by the time and attention I devoted to it, I would consider his feelings. And inevitably decide my partner/ family was more significant to me.
This does not appear to be the case for the woman in your example – though we don’t know if there were other problems in that relationship besides the amount of time she spent dancing. If Candace’s husband only wants to stay married because of their child-… I’d say dancing was more significant to him than his wife. In which case I see why she might be insecure.
Gina says
I am a bubbly, outgoing person, and my friendliness has sometimes been misinterpreted as being flirtatious. Oftentimes, when I have just met a guy and am engaging in friendly banter with him, he will make it a point to casually mention that he is either married or has a girlfriend. The point that I am trying to make is that even if those younger women did approach the OP’s husband for sex, if he is truly committed to her, he will politely decline their advances.
I have also experienced situations where a married man will approach me and start flirting with me right in front of his wife! This makes me uncomfortable, until I observe that her body language indicates that she is secure with her man and their relationship.
What I cannot figure out is why the heck don’t the single, unattached guys approach me and start flirting!?! LOL!!
Kiki says
Karl S and Karmic,
I am with you on the topic of not wanting to give up one’s passion for another person.
However I believe that in a marriage, sexuality and experiences of strong physical attraction should be an area reserved for the spouse. Unless you want to have an open marriage (I would not) and are willing to explicitly grant each other a carte blanche for whatever.
The husband in this case is either borderline or definetely violating the principles to love and cherish ONLY each other. A wife may choose to still accept it and live with it under certain circumstances. But if he is not keepin his part of the agreement, it is not insecurity but just having one’s eyes open to see that.
Diane says
The facts are that Candace has been married for 15 years. Throughout her long marriage her husband has made her feel uncomfortable by flirting with younger women. He also has an interest in porn sites.
She is obviously very unhappy as she has talked of separation with her husband. She has done this to get him to change his ways, rather than wanting to genuinely separate.
The interaction he enjoys with these young women, and fascination with porn sites is stronger than any desire to fix his wife’s distress. Only Candace knows what will make her husband sit up and take notice of her dilemma.
She just needs the resolve to do the right thing for her son, her self and her marriage.
Karl R says
Selena said: (#54)
“If I took up dancing (or any other *passion*) and my partner became bothered by the time and attention I devoted to it, I would consider his feelings. And inevitably decide my partner/ family was more significant to me.”
Is that an inevitable decision? Even when I was dating, I generally assumed that I couldn’t ask women to give up anything that was a major part of their lives. The woman might choose to give it up herself, but it really wasn’t reasonable for me to expect that she would change her life just to please me.
Most single people have pets. Would you consider dating a man who was bothered by your pets? Would you stay with a man who became bothered by your pets? The pets have probably been part of your life longer than he has. (I make no secret of my dislike of my wife’s parrots, but she’s had them for about 30 years. I expect them to be part of my life until somebody dies … my wife, the birds, or me.)
Many people are passionate about their careers. Do you consider it reasonable for your spouse to expect you to give up your career path just because he’s bothered by the time and energy it consumes? You might voluntarily choose to abandon that career path (something that’s more likely if you’re not passionate about it), but that should be your choice, not his.
You’re not likely to change your personality traits or your habits to please your husband. My wife may decided to kick a bad habit on her own (and I’ll certainly support her efforts), but unless it’s her idea, any pressure from me will only create strife.
There are certainly people who choose to give up important things as part of their marriage. They change jobs or give them up altogether. They move across the country … away from family and friends. They change religions. They give up habits. But none of those decisions is inevitable. And unless the person making the sacrifice buys into the decision, it’s going to create major stress in the relationship.
I think this only seems inevitable, because it’s not your passion.
josavant said: (#53)
“Detroit manners don’t fall in the same category as openly leering others in front of one’s spouse, or eyerolling or yelling or constantly interrupting or put-downs…”
If I had the time, I could tell you anecdotes from my immediate family based on three of those five behaviors.
Lynn (the other one!) says
@ Karl R, years ago I went to an Orioles/Tigers game. A Tigers fan had on a T-shirt that read “Detroit. Where the weak are killed and eaten.” Somebody missed on the marketing slogan 😀
But seriously, it also caused me to think of how automatically we ascribe certain behaviors to a certain region or ethnicity. Which is no different nor less problematic than attributing certain behaviors to one gender or another. It means we aren’t clearly seeing the person right in front of us.
Karmic Equation says
Selena 54
While you’re not using the words, “the man is wrong” that’s the sentiment behind your posts. He’s wrong because he values dancing, he’s wrong because he’s causing her to feel insecure. If that is your perspective on men and relationships, that men have to sacrifice their *other* passions for you whenever you feel that he’s putting something else ahead of you, you’ll never find a man who will happy to stay with you for the long haul. They’ll bail.
Let’s take men out of this and make it about children…maybe that will make this clearer…
Let’s imagine that you’re the mother of identical twin girls. Their dad passed away before their birth and you’re a single mom. When they’re six you enroll them in dance class. “Mina” loves it. She’s a natural. When she’s home all she can talk about is how she can’t wait to go to the next class. “Maria” struggles with dance. She’s shy. She doesn’t like everyone watching her. She feels she’s clumsy. One day, she tells you, “Mommy, I don’t want to go to dance class anymore. I’d rather stay home and play with Mina and you. We are a family. I’m happy when we’re together.” You give it some thought and think yes, we should be a family and if Maria isn’t happy with dancing and both girls are perfectly capable of playing home and having fun, that’s the right thing to do.
So you’d take away Mina’s passion so that you can satisfy Maria’s passion? That seems fair to you?
Really?
Skaramouche says
@Karmic #59
I respectfully disagree. I’ll let Selena speak for herself but I do think she’s blaming the man only as much as you’re blaming the woman by suggesting that insecurity is at the root of her problems. It may well be, I can’t know one way or another. What I do know is that she is no longer comfortable with the way her man is behaving. Whether that is because she has changed or whether it’s because he has changed is something at which I can only guess. Maybe they’ve both changed. Maybe she shouldn’t have married him in the first place. Really, who knows?
I also think drawing a parallel between the twin girls and a husband/wife pair is very unfair. Some of the sentiments are the same but I think you’re trivializing the situation and addressing only one facet. If the issue at hand was only about forcing one person to give up a passion for another, I would be fully in agreement with you. There’s more at play here though.
Karl R says
Gina said: (#55)
“I am a bubbly, outgoing person, and my friendliness has sometimes been misinterpreted as being flirtatious.”
People who flirt make a distinction between “flirting with intention” and “flirting without intention”. The two appear the same, but the former is trying to accomplish something (usually a sexual or romantic relationship). The latter seeks no goal beyond the immediate entertainment of the flirting.
As someone who regularly flirts, I see zero distinction between flirting (without intention), friendly banter and friendliness. They’re the same thing.
When you get married, it’s probably safe to assume that you’re not going to stop being friendly with other people. You’re not going to avoid friendly banter. You’re going to behave the same way with others that you do right now.
Feel free to correct me if you expect to change.
Diane said: (#57)
“Throughout her long marriage her husband has made her feel uncomfortable by flirting with younger women.”
Would it be fair for one of Gina’s boyfriends (#57) to insist that she stop engaging in friendly banter with other men? Would it be fair for her future husband to start insisting that she stop engaging in friendly banter with other men after they got married?
If Candace expected her husband to change the way he speaks with women after they got married, then she entered the marriage with delusions. She should have married a shy introvert instead.
Candace created her own distress when she chose to marry a flirt. My wife (and Evan’s wife) decided that they didn’t mind if we continued to flirt. Alternatively, my wife could have married someone who isn’t a flirt. There was a man (who doesn’t know how to flirt) who was pursuing her when we started dating. People still laugh about how I stole her from under his nose.
Would it be rational for my wife to spend the next 15 years being upset over my flirtatiousness? That’s part of the reason she chose me over him.
When a man shows you who he is, BELIEVE HIM. Do you really think that Candace’s husband didn’t flirt during their courtship?
Kiki said: (#56)
“I believe that in a marriage, sexuality and experiences of strong physical attraction should be an area reserved for the spouse.”
My eyesight didn’t deteriorate when I made my wedding vows. If I found a woman physically attractive before I met my wife, then the woman is still physically attractive.
You’re holding a belief that is contradicted by reality. Look up the definition of “delusion”. If you’re entering marriage with delusions of what marriage is going to be like, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
My wife and I still feel physical attraction to other people. By getting married, we agreed not to act on that physical attraction. If I’m out dancing in a public place with a group of people who know I’m married, there’s no danger of me acting on any attraction that I feel.
Kiki said: (#56)
“Unless you want to have an open marriage (I would not) and are willing to explicitly grant each other a carte blanche for whatever.”
My wife and I don’t have an open marriage. (Neither of us wants one.) Each of us is free do dance with whomever we want. Each of us can hug, stare at, or flirt with members of the opposite sex. There are a range of boundaries that couples can agree to. It’s not all or nothing.
However, my wife and I explicitly agreed to our boundaries before we got serious. It sounds like Candace and her husband didn’t even discuss that before they got married.
josavant said: (#53)
“we didn’t in fact establish that Candace is insecure, or if her concerns are valid.”
Candace said: (original post)
“My fear is what happens when one of them [the young sexy girls] wants to sleep with him [the mid-forties husband]?”
Is that your idea of a valid concern? Sexy 20-somethings will want to have sex with mid-40s married men? (She said “when” not “if”.)
There are clearly problems in the marriage. There is almost certainly something valid she should be concerned about. But the stuff she put in her letter is based on insecurities.
Candace says
Since my salsa dancing husband did have an affair with a woman who he did a performance with, then tell me how is one to feel comfortable and not feel insecure when he goes out dancing until 3 or 4 am in the morning ??? I wonder how your wife will feel when you do eventually cross the line…. because no matter how much we love our partners, putting yourself in theses situations creates opportunities. No one is immune to that!!
Ruby says
Candace isn’t asking her husband to give up dancing, she’s asking him to give up leering, ogling, and flirting. Yes, people may be attracted to members of the opposite sex even though they are married. They may even engage in mild flirtation, but there are degrees. Sorry, folks, I don’t see this as about “passion” for dancing, but more about a “passion” for flirting, ogling, and leering at other women, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes Candace feel.
Should she have married the guy in the first place? Maybe not. Can he change? Maybe not. But that doesn’t mean that she shouldn’t express her displeasure with his behavior even at this late date. And it doesn’t mean that it’s perfectly okay for him to ignore her concerns.
Karmic Equation says
@Skaramouche 60
“It may well be, I can’t know one way or another. What I do know is that she is no longer comfortable with the way her man is behaving.”
And he’s clearly said that he’s comfortable being as he is and doesn’t intend to change. Why does HE have to change instead of HER? Are you saying HE should be uncomfortable so that SHE can be? And that is right because why?
For the record, I didn’t say she was wrong to dislike his behavior. She was wrong to have accepted it before she was married. Now that she’s married she believes she has the right to change him. WRONG. She should have had the guts to try to change him BEFORE they were married. Maybe she wouldn’t be married right now, because he would have nexted her. That’s why she accepted his behavior BEFORE they married. Now she’s holding his son hostage to get him to change. “Change or I’ll leave with your son.” Please. I’m a woman. I know how this game is played. I never play it and I can always see right through women who do.
“I also think drawing a parallel between the twin girls and a husband/wife pair is very unfair. Some of the sentiments are the same but I think you’re trivializing the situation and addressing only one facet.”
I’m not trivializing, you’re over-analyzing. A passion is a passion whether one is 6 or 96. What I took out was the gender bias that Selena couldn’t get over. All Selena saw was “dancing” over “family”. Why should Maria’s desire for family override Mina’s desire for dancing? It’s tough to argue when we’re talking about kids, isn’t it? But why is it so easy to argue when it’s a man’s desire over a woman’s?
Let’s use our imagination one more time, and change the LW from a woman to a man…
“I have been married for 15 years and my wife has always been attracted to very handsome young men. When we first started dating, I felt uncomfortable at how she would *stare* [women don’t leer, so had to change this] at other men in my presence, which made me feel that she wanted more. She is also into a lot of porn and it is the sites of really young men that bother me the most.
She is a salsa dancer and always chooses the young sexy men to dance with. We are in our mid-forties and sometimes I find her behavior repulsive…
When I approach her on her flirty behavior with men, she claims it is a sexual energy on the dance floor that she finds exciting, but it does not mean that she wants to sleep with them. My fear is what happens when one of them wants to sleep with her? She does not want to stop, yet she wants to stay in this marriage…”
You know what you would be saying to this guy?
– Why don’t you trust your wife?
– Why did you marry her if you didn’t trust her?
– Why don’t you leave her then if you don’t like her dancing?
– Why do you want her to give up something she likes just because you don’t like? How selfish!
– Grow some, buddy!
And you know what none of you would have said?
“You’re right, she should give up dancing to make you happy.”
(Amen – EMK)
Karmic Equation says
@Ruby 62
“He wants us to stay together with our son, yet continue this lifestyle. My question is this…am I just insecure or is he crossing the line when it comes to dancing with other women?”
I don’t believe leering, ogling, and flirting constitute a “lifestyle”.
She wants him to quit dancing.
Ruby says
KE #64
I’ve had salsa dance lessons and danced with several different men. None of them ever flirted or made me uncomfortable. My impression is that it’s not just that the OP’s husband is dancing with other women, it’s that he’s engaging in suggestive behaviors with them as well.
Karl S says
Like Karl R said earlier, the extent to which is he actually “ogling” and “leering” might not be so serious if he is popular with the ladies. Why would he be popular if he comes across as this sleazy older man who is obviously trying to get into your pants?
josavant says
62 Ruby, hear hear. It’s not about the dancing itself. Some of the comments set up a strawman of sorts, which go something like this. “Do you believe he should give up dancing?” “No of course not.” “Well, then, he’s doing nothing wrong.” Which is all beside the point. It’s the whole flipping package, people. If he otherwise behaved in a way that made his wife comfortable, almost surely she wouldn’t care about his “passion” for dancing. (Btw there’s no statement in her letter that he has a passion for dancing. This is something that other commenters implied, and somehow now we’re talking as though dancing was his passion, which we have no proof of.)
Trust is everything in a relationship. Like the example Evan gave of his wife askin him if he was crushing on someone – she wouldn’t be OK with that if she didn’t trust him, but because she trusts him, just about everything is OK. Trust is hard to gain and even harder to re-gain once it’s lost. Again, I don’t think this couple will have a happy marriage anytime soon regardless of who’s to blame.
Nicole says
It must be exhausting to be an insecure wife. And I think anyone, man or woman, who is forced to give up a fulfilling hobby b/c of an insecure spouse might be better sticking with the hobby.
I’m not sure how people can argue how much happier life is for women like Karl R’s and Evan’s wives.
And I’m not sure how people lept from dancing to the husband sleeping with 20 year olds. Is there an equivalent saying for men to the saying “Happy wife, happy life”? B/c it would seem like a man who is happy is going to work harder to make you happy if you let him, not less. And if trying to dictate what hobbies is want makes you happy you might need therapy.
Skaramouche says
@Karmic #63
>> Are you saying HE should be uncomfortable so that SHE can be? And that is right because why?
Nope, not saying that at all. I’m not defending her. I’m simply saying that both he and she have a right to feel the way that they feel. She finds his behaviour unacceptable and he has no desire to change. Something’s going to have to give. Either they find a compromise or the marriage is over. It is important to state again that we don’t know who changed. We can be certain that she did based on her comments. She’s going to have to come to terms with that one way or another. It is also possible that he changed. Maybe what seemed okay when they were 20 now just seems inappropriate to her. Or maybe he’s a little more “outgoing” now than he was. *I don’t know*. That’s the point. The only thing I found interesting and was trying to point out is that you told Selena that she was blaming the man when you are, in effect, blaming the woman. That’s all.
>> Now she’s holding his son hostage to get him to change.
Yes, it could be that. It’s a dirty game and it’s horrible when women play it. OR it could also be that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. He has no desire to change his behaviour in any way at all and wants his wife to be happy with this status quo. Before you misunderstand me, I am not taking sides. Either scenario is equally likely.
My thoughts on reading her letter, based purely on gut? She shouldn’t have married him in the first place. I think we are in agreement there. BUT she married him and he married her. Unless she pretended to be someone completely different from who she is (it’s possible), he had to have had some idea of her personality. There is so much information she has left out of her letter. Does he compete? Does he go to salsa clubs where the objective is for dancers to get together and do what they love? Is he going to salsa (night)clubs night after night? Has he always been a (salsa) dancer? All of these will have a bearing on how and why she feels the way she does. Maybe she’s just insecure. Or maybe he’s giving her reasons to be.
>> What I took out was the gender bias that Selena couldn’t get over.
Again, I hate to speak for Selena but I have to in order to respond to your comment. I don’t think she said “dancing” over “family”. She said “dancing” over “wife” and “wife” includes said wife’s feelings. It’s less about the activity itself and more about how he conducts himself. And no, you didn’t just take out the gender bias. You changed the nature of the relationship altogether. This is NOT about a man’s desire over a woman’s. Also no, it’s not difficult to argue when it’s children. Maria’s desire absolutely does not trump Mina’s, unless of course Maria is married to Mina and has concerns that her sister’s “sexual energy” may go beyond the dance floor. If that’s the case, then maybe they have to talk about it. See how absurd that is.
>> Let’s use our imagination one more time, and change the LW from a woman to a man…
Yes, let’s. I would say the exact same thing. Maybe the husband is just insecure. Or maybe the wife is giving him reasons to be.
Karmic Equation says
@Skaramouche 69
We’re going to go back and fourth and never agree. I think the problem is simple because the woman can solve her problem herself. You think the problem is complex because the problem is with the man and not the woman.
The only thing I can say is that we cannot change other people, we can only change ourselves.
Let’s just say her husband is a leering, ogling, too sexual 40-something. If that’s what she believes he is, then why is she with this buffoon? Because he’s the father of her child? So she wants her son to have this leering, ogling, too sexual man being in his life and being his role model? In addition, this man is not willing to make her happy. Why is she still with him?
Her husband already said he’s not changing, meaning he’s not going to give up his dancing. I doubt she’s said to him “You’re a leering, ogling, overly sexual man and I find your behavior repulsive. So if you want me to remain in your life, you need to stop leering, ogling, and being overly sexual when you dance.” Because if he said to that statement “No, I’m not changing my leering, ogling, sexual ways,” why hasn’t she run for the hills? What exactly does staying in this marriage salvage?
He said he wasn’t giving up dancing because that was what she said was her problem.
If in fact his leering, ogling, and overt sexuality are her issues she needs to tell him that’s what she has a problem with. Then she has a fighting chance of engaging him to fix the REAL problem. She’s not willing to accuse him of that to his face because why? Probably because he’d next her. She doesn’t want the relationship to end, she wants him to change. That is not within her control.
However you want to slice this, the solution to Candace’ unhappiness is within her own control. Either get her feelings out on the table honestly and let the cards fall where they may; address her insecurity HERSELF – asking him to cater to her insecurity is not the answer; or walk away if she really believes he’s a buffoon. Changing him is outside her control. Not only that, if he is indeed such an ass, then the change will be temporary, and he’ll revert in short order.
She wins the battle but loses the war.
J says
Karmic- I think you are putting words in people’s mouths. The OP is prepared to leave the marriage- the husband doesn’t want it to end and doesnt want to change anything. The OP also didn’t say or imply she was using the son as a pawn. Hell, it doesn’t look like she even said ‘change or else!’. She simply said she was ready to leave.
Fusee says
I agree with the following comments:
– we can’t change anyone who does not want to change
– we should not cater to someone’s insecurities
– we can’t protect someone against themselves
– we are responsible for our own happiness
(Thanks to Karmic Equation and Karl R!)
But I disagree with the fact that each time a woman feels uncomfortable with a man’s behavior towards other women, it means that she is insecure. I also disagree that the only solution is to walk away when you do not like it.
Some commenters are addressing the issue as if it was dating. It’s not. It’s marriage, guys. Sure, in marriage you should not try to change the other or cater to your partner’s insecurities either, but compared to dating you made a promise that involves a lot of responsability, so walking away when there are still plenty of options to try is irresponsible.
In the situation described by the Letter Writer, either the husband has always behaved this way, and although the Letter Writer never liked it, she married him nevertheless and it has now become a source of increased pain for whatever reason (aging, lack of affirming loving actions, etc), or the husband’s behavior changed for the worse over the years, and in a way that was not part of the initial “deal”. If it’s the former, she made a mistake, if it’s the latter, he made a mistake. At the end of the day, it does not really matter who did what. They face a crisis and they have to figure out if they can salvage their marriage or if they should get a divorce.
The difference between dating and marriage is that in marriage there is a vow. There is a promise to grow together through good and bad. Simply stating that she can leave if she does not like it is the reason why the divorce rate is what it is. Indeed, most people can’t grow together through good and bad. They want their cake and eat it too. They want to be able do to whatever they want. They do not want to restrict their freedom. It’s not how marriage works for most people. Unless you’re married to an exceptionally easy-going partner, most people will at some point have to/choose to restrict their choices for the sake of the marriage, and ideally they would start doing so while dating and adjusting to one another. They will choose to favor the marriage over individual priorities. Oviously, it’s essential to marry someone compatible, so that when we do restrict some of our options, it does not involve negating our deep values or long-time passions.
In this situation, there are many conversations that could be had and compromises that could be done, and the first one I would suggest is – before even addressing the dancing issue – assessing whether they can recommit to being loving towards one another. After all, the Letter Writer might not be insecure in herself, but instead feel mistrust in her marriage because of things that happened and things that did not happen. If they could both recommit to fulfill one another’s needs for love and respect, the husband could very well get his wife’s blessing to continue dancing and enjoying fun times with the younger ladies while the Letter Writer gets her weekly pillow talks/hot dates where her husband reaffirm his love and devotion.
Being sensitive to one another is key to a happy marriage, and this can be done in many ways. It takes commitment, communication, and creativity to get out of these painful times, but it can be done when both parties agree to make a sacrifice to meet somewhere in the middle. Insensitivity, stonewalling, and walking away are not the solution. Willingness of BOTH parties to evolve is, and sometimes it takes a woman to initiate change. Not by demanding but by expressing legitimate needs and offering her own sacrifice. It is certainly the case in my relationship.
Marguerite says
I read Evan’s blog frequently and the responses. I have never felt compelled before to comment.but I do today.
I was married to a man for almost 25 yrs and made the choice to ignore certain behaviors. Partly do to being secure and partly do to having 4 children.
There is a difference between leering and looking. Just ask my daughters,they can explain it.
I should of paid more attention to my concerns about his behavior.He would flirt with any woman.No age discrimination.
What led to our divorce? It was revealed that he had molested my daughters,at least 2 of them,the other 2 deny it but also have very poor memories of their childhoods. My ex admitted to the above in a therapy session attended by us both. in further discussion with the therapist it became clear to me he was not just a pedophile but was sexually perverted in general. I am not saying that all men that flirt are sexually perverted but I go back to my original point,there is a difference between leering and looking.We ALL know the difference. Red flag behavior.
If he can’t control his leering or flirting I think he has issues probably stemming from his childhood and has extreme insecurities himself and unless he is willing to examine this,things will not change,
JoeK says
As you alluded Evan, many women automatically assumed the worst of the husband, despite any real information.
My god, the apologists.
We simply don’t know exactly what occurred when they dated, or when they went dancing, the OP didn’t clarify.
And again, only commenters like Karmic and Karl are focusing on what we do know, while others are filling in the blanks with “the man is at fault”.
No wonder there’s so much difficulty in dating, if many women automatically assume men are wrong all the time.
As a 40+ man who’s dated them, I can say many women do automatically blame men for every perceived slight…god knows I’ve walked away from many of them.
Take responsibility for your actions. The OP did not – she admits he was this way when they married, but is only NOW (FIFTEEN YEARS LATER!) making an issue of it. He should divorce her and move on.
Candace says
And I guess that I should also turn a blind eye to all the pictures that he secretly takes of other woman’s crotches and breasts , including my sisters and two of my colleagues 15 year old daughters?? Yup, I am very delusional and insecure and he should divorce me!!
Evan Marc Katz says
No. You shouldn’t. I presume you’re bright enough to see the difference between him deleting pictures of a girlfriend from 10 years ago and secretly taking pictures of your sister’s crotches.
Karl T says
JoeK #74,
Well spoken. Also, how many times have we seen before in a thread where the OP came to the comments section and elaborated more and it basically changed the whole story around!! We know nothing and I find it funny how the OP just jumps 15 years ahead without bothering to explain anything in the middle!!! If the OP is out there reading this, please come back and fill in more details!!! Short of that, we have to go by what she said and I agree with you- how could she start complaining about this now after 15 years.
Karmic Equation says
Fusee 72 wrote:
“Being sensitive to one another is key to a happy marriage, and this can be done in many ways. It takes commitment, communication, and creativity to get out of these painful times, but it can be done when both parties agree to make a sacrifice to meet somewhere in the middle. Insensitivity, stonewalling, and walking away are not the solution. “
I agree. As a woman who was with her man for 11 years, 2 yrs engaged, 9 married. If there was a chance for Candace to address her perceived issues of her husband being a leering, ogling, flirt it was was during the first few years of her marriage when both parties are feeling that they are both in-it-to-win-it and willing to work and adjust to each other.
The problem is that once an issue is unaddressed for 15 years it does come down to accept it or leave it or go to counseling. Unfortunately, the problem is that issues in a relationship are normally raised by the woman, so the man is seen as insensitive if he doesn’t want to “work it out.” — Actual cheating is a true issue that needs counseling; PERCEIVED “possibility to cheat” is not a real issue and the issue is with the person who thinks their S.0. might cheat.
My motto is that before asking a man to work it out, work it out in your (the woman’s) own mind. Many women mistakenly believe that whatever they believe of a man’s actions is the reality. If she perceives his actions as “leering, ogling, or flirting” then he must indeed be leering, ogling, or flirting. She couldn’t possibly have the wrong perception. She rarely seeks the opinions of other MEN about her man’s perceived behavior. She MIGHT seek opinions from other women, particularly her friends, most of whom are going to be like the women on this board and agree with her simply because she’s a woman. They enable her.
Most of my friends are men. If I have an issue with my man, I ask the men, and they’re awesomely supportive while being HONEST about the situation, but they DON’T enable me. They’ll call me paranoid, over reacting, they’ve even asked “Have you TALKED to him about this?”, etc. They’ll also tell me when HE’s the one being an ass and I’m justified in feeling what I’m feeling.
I’m also secure. I notice my man noticing other women. All the men I date notice other women, because I like men who appreciate women’s beauty. There’s a HUGE difference between
A) men in a relationship who look at and APPRECIATE other beautiful women. ALL heterosexual men fall into this category. These men are normal, and
B) men in relationships who look at and CHASE what they appreciate. This is a subset of men. These men are asses.
After 15 years in a relationship, accept the men who appreciate other women. Dump those who are asses. Even if you’re married to them.
Dawn says
Candace… get out there and flirt your ass off, girl. Don’t sit in a corner and pout. Let your husband do what he does… get the focus off of him, get it back on to you. And I wouldn’t even think about the negatives (divorce), just do for you now. All about you. I know what you mean about the younger girls, etc… but it doesn’t mean that you’re not beautiful. Get out there, change your routine… get up early… hit the gym, charge some new clothes, make up and perfume on the hubby’s credit card… (haha) and instead of gong Salsa with him, give him a kiss before you go out (looking hot as hell), and tell him your going Salsa (somewhere else) with the girls.
I don’t see anything wrong with that 🙂
LifeReel says
My two cents worth… I think it is always a priority to take care of yourself, above all else, above the relationship, another person. Because if you are unwell, then there is no possibility for you to take care of other things else. If the husband’s behaviour has been constantly bothering the wife, sure all this advice might help, but realistically may take a while to digest, act on. And constant irritation, sadness etc, can lead into other worse things.
I suggest to stay away from the situation, go about your daily life, try to take as much time to quieten down, rise above the situation, and ask yourself what you would do for yourself to be happy. Your feeling irritated may be a sign to look into your own belief systems, re-examine your own perspectives, or it may be a sign that the relationship is coming to an end – realistically can you change your perspective? or do you think you might be happier in another situation?. know that you always have control over yourself, not others. be gentle with yourself and the situation, take one step at a time and do what feels natural – the answers will come one after another…
Karmic Equation says
@Dawn 77
Good advice if the husband is a good man who is distancing himself from his wife emotionally, etc. And she wants to pull him back and regain his attention. However, I’d say what you suggest is wrong for a woman to do if she finds her husband’s behavior “repulsive”. Why would you want your a repulsive man to come back to you? Let him go.
Joe says
@ Dawn #77:
“Anything wrong” other than being passive-aggressive?
Karmic Equation says
@Joe 80
What Dawn suggests isn’t passive-aggressive. It’s mirroring. What’s sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose. She has every right to behave as he’s behaving. If he has an issue with that, he can change HIS behavior and the wife can change to mirror that as well.
What Candace is doing now is much more what I would consider passive-aggressive.
Karl S says
I’m +1 for saying that’s a passive aggressive route. Mirroring is a dating strategy that is about positive actions in equal measure to the person you’re dating. You shouldn’t do things out of spite.
Karmic Equation says
Karl S 82
I disagree. It’s passive aggressive if she stays home and pouts. If she goes out to have the same good time he’s having, it’s called putting the shoe on the other foot.
There’s nothing wrong with putting the shoe on the other foot.
You may not like it, but that doesn’t make Dawn’s suggestion “passive-aggressive.” In fact it is a VERY positive way for the wife to behave to regain her sense of self-worth and fun, while re-training her husband. It’s more like “killing two birds with one stone” than “passive aggressive.”
But again, that’s only a good idea if the husband is worth keeping. If he’s a lecherous, ogling, repulsive man. OP should let him go.
Dawn says
Funny how only the male gender finds my comment as “passive-aggressive”, haha.
Label it however you want.
Can everyone agree that this woman needs to get back to herself and find some happiness? Let her husband do whatever he wants, it’s not about him.
However, while they are still married, and he’s still choosing to salsa his little balls off with other women while his wife sits there, and watches it go down… hurt, and feeling insecure. And first of all, what the hell is so wrong about feeling a little insecure about that? doesn’t mean she’s “unwell”, she feels how she feels. There’s no right or wrong.
That is why I suggest she takes her energy and focus off of him, and bring it back to herself. She’s too wrapped up in the ‘idea’ that he is doing something unpleasant, he may or may not be. Either way, as a woman… she needs to feel wanted, appreciated, and needed. He basically said, ‘umm… eff you, hun… I’m going to continue grinding with these young girls cause I want to, and get away with it because it’s Salsa, after all.’
Yea, okay. haha. She needs to feel good about herself, he’s obviously not cutting the mustard with that. So, she should go out, make herself pretty, feel confident… and work the room like it’s nobody’s business. Regardless of what her husband does or thinks. It’s her life. This woman should not be sitting in a corner feeling bad about herself. And her husband doesn’t seem to give a rat’s butt, either.
She needs to distance herself from the situation that is bringing her down, she can still be pleasant with her husband… she can come back to it, or decide she’s having too much fun and is happier not watching her husband grind on other women. That’s not passive-aggressive, that’s called being an emotionally mature, confident woman… who needs to take care of herself.
Karl R says
Joe (#80) and Karl S (#82),
I don’t see Dawn’s suggestion (#77) as being passive-aggressive. For a couple who dances, going out, looking hot, dancing and flirting are really normal behaviors. Dancing at a different venue than your significant other … less normal, but it happens. (And under the circumstances, it may be easier for Candace to stop dwelling on her husband’s behavior if she’s dancing at a different location.)
Karmic Equation said: (#83)
“There’s nothing wrong with putting the shoe on the other foot.”
I’m not sure that’s going to have the effect you’re expecting. In the dance community, most of the men are happy if their wife/girlfriend starts dancing and enjoys it. They end up going dancing more often. There’s less friction in the relationship. It’s all good.
The goal isn’t to retrain her husband. It’s to retrain the way she views the situation.
If the husband gets upset because the wife’s enjoying dancing as much as he is, then he is a really lousy husband. (I strongly believe that the same rules should apply to both partners in a relationship.)
Furthermore, I wouldn’t call this behavior “mirroring” (at least not in the way Evan describes it).
Karl T says
I don’t really care what term you label it- I’m not sure passive-aggressive is the right term, but I do know that I totally disagree with Dawn’s advice. I would never recommend someone to go out and do the same thing if they are upset by something. Dawn, if you think what the husband is doing is bad then why would you suggest the wife go out and do the same thing? If he was a cheater, would you advise her to go out and cheat too? That’s asinine advice in my opinion. You either do something about it- have a talk with him or leave the relationship if it is truly a conflict after you speak about it and have counseling about it. Lastly, you let your true feminine biased colors fly in you post in #84. You called the husband lots of vulgar names and got rifling angry over it, yet you and everyone else here practically knows NOTHING about the situation since the wife omitted 15 WHOLE YEARS from the story. You have no clue, but yet you still ready to hang the guy.
Joe says
If it’s done with a “what’s good for the good is good for the gander” motive, it’s not mirroring.
Selena says
@ Dawn #84
REALLY enjoyed reading your post. I’m still smiling. I hope Candace reads and considers doing it . 🙂
Karl T says
Selena #88
Do you strongly believe that Candace’s husband is a being a loser by acting this way (I’m not saying he is or isn’t since I do not have enough info)?? If so, then basically your advising Candace to become a loser, too. I don’t get your advice at all- it contradicts your own opinion. If you think the guy is scum than Candace will equally become scum (in your eyes) if she follows your advice. My advice agrees with Karmic- if he truly is scum (requires more info to know this) then she should let him go.
Not sure how you enjoyed reading Dawn’s post at #84 unless you’re just against men?? Dawn basically made up her own version and filled in 15 years of facts in her own head and created a fictionary story line in her head where everything was 100% the man’s fault, even though the actual story is missing 85% of the real information…..I can make up my own version too showing the nut bag wife to be an obsessive, overly jealous, control freak who is schitzophrenic and delusional….but why would I care about anything, but the truth??
Karmic Equation says
@Karl R 85, Karl S 86, Joe 87:
If you guys don’t use the words “passive-aggressive”, I won’t use the word “mirroring.”
Sometimes women don’t like to admit they need to overcome their insecurities and men shouldn’t cater to them; sometimes men don’t realize they’re being either stubborn or insensitive (or both) until they get smacked (figuratively) in back of the head with a similar situation by their women. You guys can call that figurative smacking whatever you like. I call it training. Men don’t want to think they’re being trained; women don’t want to think they’re being insecure. Equivalent. I’m breaking the sister code for you guys. Don’t flame ME for that!
Dawn says
Yes… @ Karl R “(And under the circumstances, it may be easier for Candace to stop dwelling on her husband’s behavior if she’s dancing at a different location.)” that’s exactly where I was going with that. And even if it was just one night with the girls.. not ALL the time. She needs to temporarily ‘detach’ from the situation… and go feel good about herself! 🙂
@ Karl T – “vulgar names”, seriously? I did not call anyone any vulgar names, I said “little balls”… whoop there it is… haha. Really? would you have felt better if I said ‘testicles’. Some of the blog posts on here, even Evan curses here and there, we’re all adults.. aren’t we…? get over it.
She’s upset because her husband is completely disregarding how she feels about him grinding on every young woman within his reach on the dance floor. That’s the impression I got from her post. And she’s sitting there, feeling like crap because of it. Maybe her feelings are misplaced, maybe she’s assuming his intentions are not innocent, which… they very well may be, or not. Who cares about their history, only the present issue at hand matters. She did talk to him. He says he’s not changing. So much for communication on that matter.
So, really now, what other options does this woman have except to go out for a girls night ‘detach’ from focusing on her hubby too much, get dressed up, let her hair down and get some innocent male attention? she obviously needs it cause her hubby’s not doing the job. She is there for him, she’s the one who respects him enough to not go grinding on every young buck that enters the dance floor. Maybe she should… maybe she’d enjoy it… maybe they’d both enjoy it. Or not. All I did was ‘suggest’.
Looking good, and feeling like a confident, sexy woman… and having some innocent flirting would be a nice ‘boost’ for her… I said nothing about cheating. Where do you get “rifling anger” out of that? Perhaps you’re ‘projecting’ whatever anger issues you have about this topic on to others (me)…
Get a grip.
Dawn says
@ Karl T – did we skip our meds today or something? I didn’t state any facts about anyone’s marriage. What the heck are you talking about? I gave my suggestions and opinions… that’s it. I didn’t say anything about it being 100 % of the mans fault….?
Those are your perceptions about what I said. Funny how no one else is having quite the reaction you are… my perception… you’re still burned by your ex wife and have some anger issues of your own. I am in a wonderful relationship, and enjoy my man immensely. No man hating going on here. You don’t like my comments, don’t comment. But don’t go claiming I’m stating “facts” or making up stories.. when I’m not. You’re whacky perceptions are actually amusing… 🙂
Selena says
Karl T. – we will never get “both sides” from reading letters on this forum. We can speculate all we like, but we only have the Letter Writer’s words to go by.
In this letter a woman describes her husband’s behavior that makes her unhappy. So unhappy in fact she’s considering ending a 15 yr. marriage because of it. His response is he wants to stay married because they have a child, but he is unwilling to change anything about his ‘lifestyle’.
Karl, I don’t believe people are quick to end a 15+ yr relationship on a whim. I doubt this woman suddendly became “insecure”. She’s know him to be a flirt for over 15 yrs. I don’t know if his behavior has actually escalated, or if perhaps she has become alienated by his attitude toward her. If your partner of over 15 yrs essentially told you they were only staying married for you child- not YOU- how do you think you might feel? I have a sense -based only on what was written – that this husband disregards his wife’s feelings and stays married because it is convenient for him. I suspect that is a deeper issue beyond the dancing. But since I don’t know these people, all I can do is speculate. Just like you Karl.
Dawn’s post amused me because it expressed my take on what I read more colorfully than I would ever write on this blog.
“He basically said, ‘umm… eff you, hun… I’m going to continue grinding with these young girls cause I want to, and get away with it because it’s Salsa, after all.’
And:
“This woman should not be sitting in a corner feeling bad about herself. And her husband doesn’t seem to give a rat’s butt, either.”
Yup.
And if it was a husband writing in describing the same behavior of his wife? I’d feel the same. She didn’t give a rat’s butt about him.
My suggestion waaay back in #2 was might give counseling a shot beyond calling an attorney. This is what I would say to the woman (or man) in that situation if they talked about it to me.
Dawn’s suggestion: “She needs to feel good about herself, he’s obviously not cutting the mustard with that. So, she should go out, make herself pretty, feel confident… and work the room like it’s nobody’s business. ”
I think might be worth a shot too. 🙂
I hope this clears it up for you Karl T. You, me, and everyone else who was interested, has already given their opinions – some of us at length. Getting tedious to read the same people writing the same things over and over. At least for me.
Karl S says
You’re right, it’s not actually passive aggressive if she’s doing things for herself to feel good and not as an indirect ploy to make her husband feel bad. I think I misread or misunderstood how the advice was framed, but re-reading I see it’s not so.
Karl R says
Dawn said: (#91)
“She’s upset because her husband is completely disregarding how she feels about him grinding on every young woman within his reach on the dance floor.”
You don’t grind against your partner in Salsa. Are you perhaps getting confused with Lambada?
Karmic Equation said: (#90)
“sometimes men don’t realize they’re being either stubborn or insensitive (or both) until they get smacked (figuratively) in back of the head with a similar situation by their women.”
Why are you assuming that Candace’s husband would be bothered by Candace dancing with other men? Her letter gave no indication of that attitude.
My wife went out dancing Friday night. She was wearing something sexy. She danced with lots of men, flirted and enjoyed herself immensely. Terrific! Since she enjoyed herself, she didn’t care that I danced with lots of women, flirted and enjoyed myself immensely. If my wife doesn’t dance much, then she gets bored and starts complaining.
When my wife dances more, she’s happier. It doesn’t teach me a damn thing (except to ask a few of my friends to dance with her if it’s a slow night).
I’m not sure that’s the smack in the head that you’re anticipating.
josavant says
Dawn and Selena have the right idea. It’s not about Candace trying to get back at her husband, make him suffer, or anything like that. It’s about taking back control of her own life. Dawn’s advice is along the lines of what everyone keeps writing here, that you can’t change another person (Candace’s husband), but you can change yourself (Candace). It’s not about taking revenge, and there’s nothing passive-aggressive about it. Her happiness can only make the relationship better.
Karl T says
Selena,
If I were giving the same advice to a man writing this in the reverse situation, I would never advise to go out and do the same thing as what he is complaining about especially if I thought it was wrong! Sorry I don’t work that way. If I find something to be hurtful, then I certainly don’t go out and do it myself. I address the problem and yes I mentioned counseling included. At the end if it still doesn’t work then you leave the marriage. I shouldn’t even reply to Dawn because she is delusional and can not even understand what she writes. I do NOT make assumptions about anything. If she bothered to read half of my posts I said I do not know about many things because there is not enough info.
Dawn, go ahead and make up more of your soap opera stories. I never got burned by any exes nor hold any ill will against any of them, but why would you care? You’re Dawn the storyteller, you make up whatever you want. 15 years go by in this woman’s life and suddenly she is complaining??
marymary says
At least it’s not argentine tango.
Karmic Equation says
@Karl R 95
You know I hate it when you cherry pick to make an argument. Cherry picking to elucidate is one thing but when you cherry pick and take things out of context you change the meaning of the original argument.
You’re not Candace’s husband. You appear to be sensitive and empathetic and you are a good communicator. I would imagine if your wife came to you to ask you to stop going to salsa dancing, you would ask her “Why? What’s the matter?” and have a discussion about it. From the letter, it appears that Candace asked, and he said, “No” without discussion. Of course there could have been a whole lot of discussion that Candace didn’t include in her letter.
So for an IN-sensitive man like Candace’s husband (and, alas, way too many out there in the world), talking does no good. He doesn’t hear you. — I can say this because my player ex was exactly like that. He wouldn’t listen to my words, but he heard me loud and clear whenever I slammed out of his condo because he was behaving badly. Usually a week or two goes by and then he’d invite me over and the bad behavior is gone. Of course NEW bad behaviors would arise and then we would start the door slamming again if he didn’t listen…again.
In any case my point is that men don’t always hear you, and the only way to make those men listen is to do unto them what they’ve done unto you. Not cheating…because if OP believes he’s cheating…and that’s a deal breaker…she needs to break the deal.
Dawn’s suggestion has merit for those men who lack empathy and are insensitive. but are men worth keeping. These men only “get it” if THEY themselves are put in a similar situation. You are not those men, so what YOU would do or feel under the same circumstances is not relevant to this particular discussion about “training”.
Now, I’m sure you have male friends who are insensitive and un-empathetic…If you survey them and use their examples of how they’d handle this, that would be more relevant.
Um…For example, John’s take on this would be most interesting, if you know what I mean 😉
Joe says
@ Karmic #90:
You said that “what’s sauce for the gander is what’s sauce for the goose,” the inference being that she should give him a taste of his own medicine (you said “she has every right to behave as he’s behaving”). Given that the medicine he’s been giving her is unpleasant, that is an indication that what you want her to do something that will be unpleasant to him.
Julia says
@Joe
It seems that everyone agree that if he is only dancing then she is being insecure. Dancing and flirting are relatively harmless actions as long as one keeps up physical and emotional intimacy with one’s partner. So since its fine to dance and flirt, why shouldn’t she do the same? Maybe she will start to feel better about herself and bring her new found positivity into her relationship, hell she might even reignite the flame her husband has for her. I sense a real hypocrisy from the men here who run to the defense of men for flirting but become up in arms about spiteful women out to seek revenge by doing the same. Hence why KE said “what’s sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose.”
Karmic Equation says
Joe 100,
Correct. You think a person would come to understand that what he’s doing is unpleasant if we give him/her PLEASANT medicine?
The husband doesn’t think that what he’s doing is unpleasant. If she does it and he finds it unpleasant, then he “gets it” without her having to say a word. He’ll change if he gets it.
Now, if the husband DOESN’T end up caring that his wife is out dancing her heart out without him, the wife either continues because now she’s having fun and SHE now “gets it” that it’s harmless fun OR she decides that he doesn’t care and she STILL doesn’t like dancing…well then SHE has a decision to make…Accept or move on.
Evan Marc Katz says
Karmic – I usually agree with you but think this method of teaching her husband a lesson is asinine. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. Adults – especially couples – can talk about things, without leveling accusations, without getting emotional, without making threats. None of us can say whether the OP is being hypersensitive or not. If she is, the issue is in her control. If she’s not, it’s her husband’s responsibility to be more sensitive. But if you want to know one surefire way to make a bad situation worse, tell her to repeat the same bad behavior she decries. She not only loses any moral high ground she may have, but she’s only eroding their already shaky trust. If she has a husband she can’t talk to, who won’t compromise, she needs to leave him – not start dry-humping men on the dance floor to prove a point. I can’t think of a single argument that is solved by acting out the way you suggest.
Karl R says
Karmic Equation said: (#99)
“the only way to make those men listen is to do unto them what they’ve done unto you.”
You’re missing the entire point of what I was saying. I’m not criticizing the idea of getting someone to listen to your actions. (They frequently speak louder than words.) I’m criticizing the method.
A clearer example of the problem:
My father-in-law habitually speeds. My wife hates it. She’s talked to him. She’s yelled at him. He still speeds, even when she’s in the car.
Do you think my wife should do unto her father what he’s done to her? Do you think my wife should drive 80 mph the next time she’s driving and her father is in the car with her?
That’s not going to cause my father-in-law to change his ways. He’s just going to think he’s converted my wife to seeing things his way.
Actions speak louder than words, but the message can get muddled.
You’re expecting Candace’s husband to get jealous/insecure and suddenly realize how Candace must feel. The people in the dance community don’t tend to be jealous or insecure. It’s fairly likely that he’ll see the situation the way my father-in-law would. “Do unto others” only works with people who feel the same way you do.
Heck. You’re not even taking your own advice. Unless your boyfriend’s bad behavior was slamming doors, then you were engaging in a completely different action when you slammed out of his apartment.
Fusee says
@Karmic Equation:
Although I usually agree with your philosophy on how to treat people as shared in previous comments of yours on other threads, I absolutely, completely disagree with your perspective on “training” and “giving a taste of his own medicine”.
Why? Because this is not treating people respectfully and this is not the way to improve yourself and others. This is not the way to retain healthy people in our lives. What you have consitently described with your ex player is exactly what women should NOT do if they are looking for a healthy relationship with a healthy partner. What “unempathetic and insensitive” man is worth keeping? Even for just sex, I’d want someone a little sensitive! What man who can not listen to your calmly and respectfully explaining legitimate needs is worth keeping? Even for just sex, I’d want someone who can listen!
It’s kind of ironic that you keep saying that women should not try to change men, when you keep “training” your ex player. As you can see, that kind of training does not work, and it’s because it’s based on ego gratification. He misbehaves. She leaves. He calls again. She comes back. Misbehavior rewarded. Lather, rinse, repeat.
If what (generic) you wants the hottest sex with the hottest body, and (generic) you does not care about how he treats you even for just sex (when you ask him to stop something for example), then go ahead, and slam doors, “mirror” immature and disrespectful behaviors. But from what I get from people who succeed at long-term and HAPPY relationships, this is no way to deal with disagreements and conflicts.
Yes, normal people, those with normal humble egos who have learned to communicate adequately, respond better to pleasant medicine. It involves calm discussions, the willigness to grow even if it hurts, and compromises, and sometimes sacrifices. It might require learning these skills with a therapist.
Each time I take the higher road in my relationship, I inspire my husband to do the same, not only with me, but with others as well. And this, folks, is how you “train” yourself and others. Be the change you want to see in the world – Ghandi.
Karmic Equation says
@EMK 103
“But if you want to know one surefire way to make a bad situation worse, tell her to repeat the same bad behavior she decries.”
That’s actually the point. *I’m* not convinced that OP’s assertions that her husband is leering, ogling, or “being repulsive” to anyone on the dance floor are true. I think those labels may be a product of her insecurity.
Therefore, if SHE goes out, albeit with the intention to teach her husband a lesson, SHE might end up with a few lessons she didn’t intend to learn
1) Dancing may be enjoyable in and of itself; and the sexuality of the dances might actually be invigorating if one is participating with the intention of enjoying oneself — and there is NO HARM in enjoying a sensual dance — and that sensual dancing does not mean the people dancing will end up having sex
2) She regains her own sense of self-worth because SHE’s now achieving something, e.g., being a good dancer
3) Should her husband realize he’s not enjoying her dancing without him, HE can go with HER to the classes SHE’s enjoying
4) Her husband doesn’t give a darn…now she knows he doesn’t give a darn and her options should be clearer
It all depends on whether you believe the husband is indeed misbehaving on the dance floor or just plain insensitive but still cares for her.
If he still loves her and is plain insensitive, seeing her enjoying herself is
1) going to make him HAPPY for her because SHE is happy. That happiness is bound to do good things for their marriage OR
2) going make him concerned because he doesn’t want his wife out dancing without him OR
3) going to remain indifferent
Scenario 1 is positive for them both.
Scenario 2 is good because it makes him see the light — and hopefully ignites some positive male behaviors…He insists on going dancing with her to check out what’s making her happy…or even insists that she only go out with HIM to HIS dance classes. Either way, he’s demonstrating some male concern and if she’s smart, she leverages this concern into a healthy discussion.
Scenario 3 is good, because now she’s clear on his feelings. He doesn’t care the way she wants him to care. And she needs to evaluate her options under that circumstance.
To Dawn (and me) — As long as the wife is doing something to focus on herself — she doesn’t actually need to go dancing, she can go to a cooking class or something else that she feels good about succeeding at — she’s going to end up in a better mental place.
If you believe her husband is WRONG to continue salsa dancing in light of her objections, then you should have said so in your reply.
But like me, you thought she could be insecure. Men and women on this thread agree he’s–at least–being insensitive.
So what’s the harm in lighting a fire under his feet by being a little unpredictable…and enjoying herself in the process?
The worst that can happen is that he continues to be insensitive and indifferent. The best that can happen is she realizes can have fun without him. If something else happens in between, they break their stalemate. A good thing.
And remember YOU are also a good communicator, sensitive, and empathetic. Dawn’s suggestion WOULDN’T work for you and men like you. But I’d bet a few bucks that it would work on OP’s husband because he’s NOT like you.
Selena says
If the husband doesn’t care his wife is considering DIVORCING HIM – what makes anyone think he would care if she “worked the room like nobody’s business”?
Like Julia in #101, I think it’s interesting that the commenters who think the man isn’t doing anything wrong are aghast at the woman possibly doing the same thing. What lesson is there to ‘teach’ if he is so blameless – just following his “passion”, etc, etc.? The dancing/flirting/porn viewing is harmless right? So why wouldn’t it be harmless if she did it too?
Wouldn’t be able to call her insecure/ trying to *change* her husband if that were the case. Hmmm.
Karmic Equation says
@Karl R 104
“My father-in-law habitually speeds. My wife hates it. She’s talked to him. She’s yelled at him. He still speeds, even when she’s in the car…Do you think my wife should do unto her father what he’s done to her?”
Karl, you need a better example than that! Speeding is life threatening and potentially wallet-lightening…you can’t compare that to salsa dancing, which is neither…unless you see me do it and then you might want to pay me stop. lol
I don’t think you’d object to the wife going to cooking class while the husband is out salsa dancing. She can still get dressed up and look hot at cooking class 🙂 The idea is look hot, feel hot, and then do something she takes pride in. But really, she doesn’t NEED to tell her husband that she’s going to cooking class, if she doesn’t want to. I wouldn’t suggest she lie. If he asks, she needs to tell the truth.
“You’re not even taking your own advice. Unless your boyfriend’s bad behavior was slamming doors, then you were engaging in a completely different action when you slammed out of his apartment.”
You got me there. “Do unto others” is not what I was trying to convey with this example. This example is “actions speak louder than words.”
My bf wouldn’t listen to my WORDS, he listened to my actions, which was silence/absence. Believe me I TRIED to out-yell him a few times. Never succeeded. My silence and my absence forced him to re-evaluate his position (but the silence and absence had to be timed PERFECTLY with the misbehavior, not 15 years later). He always came around after I made myself scarce.
@Fusee 105
I think you may have missed my original posts, where I pretty much kept asking “Why is she with this guy if he’s a leering, ogling buffoon?” — We are in agreement that if his behavior is disrepectful and he refuses to change, she needs to next him.
Then Dawn 77 wrote suggested she put the shoe on the other foot…and I thought about it…and agreed that it COULD work, provided that the husband was worth keeping and not an insensitive, leering, ogling, dry-humping repulsive man.
I don’t have a “type” of man that I gravitate towards, other than “interesting”. Some are intellectual and “evolved” (read that as intellectual, empathetic, and sensitive”), and others are blue collar and not so evolved. With the not-so-evolved guys I have to go the actions speak louder than words route. With the evolved ones I go the discussion route. I use the most effective communication method for the guy I’m dating. It’s not one-size fits all for me because I don’t choose the same size all the time.
We still agree 🙂
Goldie says
I’ve skimmed through the comments and gotten so intrigued that I went back and carefully re-read the original post. Well sue me, but try as I can, I cannot find anything wrong with what the husband is doing, based on what the letter says. He’s a dancer, he likes to dance. He dances with women. He chooses women that are good dancers. They also happen to be young and fit. Isn’t all this part of being a dancer? A guy can’t very well dance salsa on a somewhat competitive level (as, it sounds like, he’s doing) with 70-year-old men. Just like I, for example, like hiking, specifically medium to difficult/difficult level of hiking. I am a member of hiking meetup groups, and when I RSVP to a difficult-level hike, odds are high that I will be hiking with a good number of young, fit men (and women). I can go on an easier, recreational hike that only women or much older men sign up for, but then I won’t get the workout I want. All of my SOs seemed to understand that, though, and not give me a hard time about it.
To everyone asking why the wife shouldn’t do the same — she should do the same if salsa dancing is what she likes. She should not do the same if she does not like it and does it only as a passive-aggressive way to get back at him. Besides, odds are, she won’t get back at him that way at all! More likely than not, he’ll see her on the dance floor with younger guys, breathe a sign of relief, and go, “Finally, she’s seen things my way!”
Karmic Equation says
@Selena 107
+1…Very astute observation. Interesting and amusing. And you should file away in the databanks for when your man misbehaves 😉
@Julia 101
Exactly! Well said.
Rose says
Re the car speding examples and the dancing, flirting porn examples.
This is how I see it if they bother me.
If my father in law wants to speed then it’s up to him. His life his choice.If I don’t feel safe and feel scared and don’t want to be on a car with somone who speeds, I tell them straight, I am honest. If they continue to speed I take care of myself and again tell them straight. I don’t to be a passenger in a car with someone who is speeding as I feel scared and unsafe, so if you want to speed which you are entitled to do it feel best to me to no longer be a passenger. He then chooses and does what he wants. I have no expectation and I let go of trying to control him by telling him off or lecturing. Lecturing, debating or yelling will get me nowhere.
Same things re the flirting and looking at porn with young girls in it. If this is making me feel deeply unhappy then again he is entitled to do what he wants, but I don’t want to be in a marraige where my husband flirts excessivly on the dance floor and looks at porn with young girls in it. Either these things upset someone enough to be dealbreakers to me or they are not He then has to make a choice if he wants me or to carry on doing he things that make me deeply unhappy. And if they upset me enough I have to take personal responsibility for my feelings of unhappiness and get myself out of those situations. Getting out of a car is easier then getting out of a marraige especially where children are involved, so it would be taking small steps to get to that point. Or you accept these things and live with them.
We have no control over other peoples life choices. We only have control of our own.
Rose says
Karl R, I feel curious and would like to ask your wife, Why is she choosing to put herself in the same situation over and over that causes her distress and is is harmful to herself by still getting in the car with him? Or does she not get in the car with him anymore?
Joe says
@ Selena #107:
It’s not that we’re aghast at the LW doing the same thing. We’re aghast because those who are suggesting the LW do that are suggesting it to “teach the guy a lesson,” which is not something a person should want in a healthy relationship (aside from being passive-aggressive). If the LW wants to go out dancing on her own because it’s something she enjoys, I would wholeheartedly advocate that. If she goes out dancing because she wants to elicit a certain reaction from her husband, that is the wrong motivation, IMO.
Selena says
@Joe #113
Again I ask, if the husband isn’t doing anything wrong, what lesson is there to teach? So what if she does the same thing he does?
And if her dancing and flirting were to get a reaction out of him? The maybe he would have to concede what he was doing was not so kosher after all, hmm.
I agree that in a healthy relationship people talk and try to understand each others feelings. The LW has already tried that and to seemingly no effect. At this point she could try counseling (with or without him), she could go out dancing and flirting (if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em), or she could just call an attorney.
Karl T says
Selena#114,
That is still terrible advice. You’re telling the woman to stoop to his level. If SHE is in belief that what the husband is doing is wrong then by doing the same thing herself she is a hypocrite. You know full well that your asking the OP to behave badly herself. You’re just trying to come up with fake excuses to mask everything and justify it. Come on…..you don’t really expect us to believe your explanation in #114, do you???
Karmic Equation says
@Karl T 115
There’s a saying “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” So there has to be an opposite, right?
“Sometimes good things happen even with the worst of intentions.” (I made that up).
So if OP goes dancing or out with the girls to have harmless girl fun and enjoys herself, that’s all that matters. If the husband is enjoying salsa while she’s enjoying girls’ night out, they’re both happy.
Now if th husband decides that he doesn’t like her going out with the girls while he’s out dancing, but she decides that she really enjoys her time with her friends, then she can say no, just like he did to stopping going to dancing. Or she can say, ok, let’s negotiate and have a discussion and forge a new deal.
All good.
It’s not a bad idea, if the husband is worth keeping. It’s a waste of energy if he’s an ass. She should just dump him if that were the case.
Karl T says
KE #116,
I refer you to Joe’s post at #113. If she’s doing it with intention then she’s a hypocrite.
Dawn says
Jeez… we’re still commenting on this?
Karmic Equation says
@Karl T 117
That would be one interpretation.
The other is “If you can’t beat, join them.” So all folks who do that are hypocrites? Or are they trying something different, because the “evolved” way to solve the problem (communication) didn’t work?
starthrower68 says
I personally don’t get quite enough information from the post to say the right or wrong thing is for her to divorce or stay married. There have been marriage that appear to be broken beyond repair that have been mended. I am getting the sense though that popular opinion is she should just turn a blind eye?
Karl S says
Part of the problem with this debate is over what people consider to be a good intention. Karmic has argued that action used to make someone see the error of their ways is actually a good intention – “My silence and my absence forced him to re-evaluate his position”.
What some of us are arguing is that if you act with the expectation that somebody might see the error of their ways, your action is actually a negative one. The very fact that you felt you had to do something because clear communication had failed was not a good sign for the relationship.
It’s not really tenable to argue that the OP would be doing something for her own enjoyment and empowerment that might also still cause the husband to see he is wrong/get annoyed/feel jealous. That’s still effectively banking on a possible outcome that would change the action into a negative one. It also shows you’re still judging your partner’s behavior.
The only way for it to be a genuinely positive action is to say “I’m going dancing for myself, with no expectations of what my partner will do or how they will feel.”
Karl S says
That’s also why Karl T was calling hypocrite. If you’re still judging your partner’s behavior to be wrong, no action but leaving will be right.
Karmic Equation says
@Karl S
In pool there’s a term called a 2-way shot. You shoot with the intention of making the Ball A into Pocket A, but if you miss, you might actually put Ball B into Pocket B.
Let’s leave ANY judgment about the OP’s intention, ours or the OP’s, out of the action we’re proposing. Because remember, WE are the one’s who proposed this idea. OP did not come up with it herself.
Dawn tells her, “Go forth and dance without your husband, try to enjoy yourself.” OP says, “Yes maam” — OP finds she loves dancing without her husband. She feels better about herself, her marriage. Cool. Her husband feels bad. Why isn’t she dancing with him. Why’s she having so much fun without him. — How OP REACTS to this happenstance is MORE important than why she did it. The why is in HER MIND (and ours because we put it there). The how she reacts determines what happens in her marriage.
If the husband doesn’t care react, then all OP has to decide is whether she likes dancing enough to continue or whether she likes her husband enough to stay married.
Gaining the data point is good. She can make a more informed decision.
starthrower68 says
It’s interesting that our OP does not mention if she believes her husband truly loves her; she only states that he says he wants to remain in the marriage for the sake of their son. If there is that much tension between the two of them, I’m not sure that they are doing their son any favors by staying married. While it is not my intention to be harsh or critical toward the OP, it appears she is seeking a magic bullet solution to get him to change and if she can’t, blessings to leave the marriage. And while telling her to go dance with him, but with other men, seems like a good solution on the surface, I agree with the earlier response that says he will likely just think, “good she finally sees things my way”. It is my *opinion* (because more info is needed) that his behavior really is as bad as she states, then she needs to leave him and be done with it. His behavior may be wrong, it may be fine depending on what one’s moral filter is, but what we know for certain is she will not not change him by talking, sulking, coercing, flirting with other guys, etc. If she truly feels he does not love her, but she also stays in the marriage for the sake of her son, then she certainly can detach from him emotionally and give him her blessing to dance, flirt, and have sex with whomever he wants. She can build a life on her own.
judy says
Sparkling Emerald 20 – yes indeed. I don’t know this kind of dancing but it would be kinda fun to have discreet private lessons to be absolutely fabulous on the dance floor and to have “moves” that the 20 year olds don’t know yet.
I’d also dress as hot as hell and be with him. Yep.
So let them flirt with him – I’d make sure I was 100 times better (and it is HER husband so she has an advantage!)
Lidia says
When a person flirts they open a bit of themselves up to a person. When they are single is more accepted because they are searching for the person they are trying to match with. Mingling privacies are needed for that search to some degree.
When a person in a relationship flirts they are still opening themselves up to others and in turn closing their significant other out just a little. It’s not just emotional but spiritual as well. The problem is not one of insecurity as much as it is of sanctity. There’s definitely a hurt that goes with that, being man or woman. Its offensive to the one with the problem because they were told all those things and felt special. They grew a bond that they’ve been shown it’s not just between them anymore. When those same special communications are transpired to another it takes the power away. They are no longer as special to their significant other and it becomes plain as day. Its also embarrassing and humiliating, even when its not so clear. Outsiders see it, it shows on the flirter. The other partner now is directly affected. These are negative energies. That’s when insecurities are bread. This is where confidence needs to be strong. It always will come to are you strong enough to deal with it or will it break what you have. See you will never change anyone, even in communicating you will not change anything. In doing that you give the ultimatum for your partner to make the choice to either stop or now hide it. If they do stop they are now not being themselves, if they hide it, it will grow stronger insecurities. Either way it comes down to you, the one it bothers. How you handle it will be the determining factors. If the problem is brought to the attention of the other it will be fought automatically. All anyone can do is look past it or watch it. Honestly the only reason it began to bother you was because you noticed a change in your partner that aroused a curiosity to look. If you’re truly bothered and know that this will continue because its part of your significant other.
One of 2 things will happen from this point… either nothing and it stays the same or things progress and get worse. If you see its getting worse and interfering then its time to let go, but first ask yourself is it interfering because you are letting it or because it really is. If not then you will have to get over it and accept your partner for who they are. In doing this never expect them to understand this. They won’t. It has to come down to you.
Ges says
@Whatsgoingon
“strange men have their paws on you and leer at your boobs and butt and try to flirt with you.”
That’s not what salsa is about. Salsa is not a sexual dance! As for equating salsa with porn..
Also, too many people still think that porn is sexuality. Porn is COMMERCIALISED sexuality!! This is not the same as natural and sane sexuality. On a side note there are many psychological dangers associated with frequently consuming porn and it has indeed distroyed many relationships for various reasons! Anyway, it’s difficult to say anything about this without actually knowing this guy and having observed him, in his life and while dancing salsa. Only his wife can know the answer in my opinion while taking into accoutn her own feelings about this and of what she is willing to live with. Even if he doesn’t cheat, maybe this is just too much for her. Some people are more jealous as others. Maybe she fears that he might fantasize about this woman and rather be with them than with her even if he doesn’t cheat. So I think her feelings are legitimate and it’s definitvely wrong to call her immature. We are all different, some people can live with this while others can’t.
JoJOe says
PASS THE SALSA PLEASE
Note: I was not married to this schmuck of a flirt gone wild.
Creativity and humor are also a part of life. People “ARG” way toooooo much.
Here’s what to do: Here’s actually what I did … But I knew I was leaving for good.
Day One: Nuance, clean your purse in front of him. nonchalantly pull out business cards with mens names written on the back, pull out packs of condoms, especially black ones and flavoured ones. “Oh, I was at the women’s show, is all” freebies, just FREEBIES… then describe the sizes, stare on them, fan your face with them. Be wearing your sexiest and say you have to go grocery shopping. Kiss, Smile, leave.
Day Two, Three, Four… No Contact (but oooo he will be calling)
Day Five: When he’s not looking
Place a stack of lingerie on his bed with this note “In case you need to find your inner Russell Williams” Write “call me for a good time” on the bathroom mirror in lipstick. the number 911 or other.. no matter.. Place a dime on the bed stand note “For last week” On the kitchen table his fave bottle of wine, note “Drink me, if you trust me” (Knowing he loved his wine and this would be hard to resist)
Le piece de resistance (Only if you’re leaving for good) A bit of hand cream in a condom in the garbage in the bathroom.
Done and doner… I’m not penny stock my friend, my name is not even Penny like you called me last month.. ha..
JoJOe says
The aftermath: He called and called, knocked on the door, emailed, texted. You name it, he did it.. Me, nothing, ziltch, zero, I’d even sit behind the door and count the minutes than go back to business. He tried for more then 4 weeks, then it dwindled, then nothing. I got back my dignity through a harmless display of “wake UP” but don’t wake up for me, for yourself. Message sent, understood? Not my problem anymore. I wish him luck, release the karma, understand my lesson and move forward. I still wear sunglasses to protect my vision, but they are no longer rose tinted.
JoJOe says
Bottle of wine 32.oo, Condoms, 20.00, Lingerie 75.00. oh and 10 cents.
My dignity, PRICELESS
Mel says
This woman is in her mid forties, a very powerful time to examine her life and embrace what she wants to continue or discard what is holding her back. This is all very normal and a wonderful time to make positive changes in a woman’s life. Basically people change, what was ok 15 years ago might not feel ok now.
If she is uncomfortable with his need for young female affirmation or his pleasure in their sexual energy she need not feel she needs to ask other’s for their opinions because they do not live her experience, she can trust herself and make a decision that is empowering for her. If that involves leaving her husband because she feels diminished by his actions she need not believe she is insecure but rather that it’s not working anymore since their needs are not compatible any longer.
He may be a good husband in some areas but this is not her heart issue, which is what is being discussed here. She may well blossom and grow away from this, while respecting his desire to meet his needs. Many women leave their husbands in their forties, not because they are insecure but because after examining their past and values they decide they don’t want to live in a way that doesn’t reflect their own values.
Cassandra says
I have the same problem. It didn’t bother me at first, then it kept getting in the way of our relationship, then it bothered me on and off and then it really got to me and I’ve asked him to quit more than 10 times, he would say he’d quit and then I’d find out he was doing it again not long after. After 3 years of this tug of war (how long we’ve been together) I am extremely hurt and insecure, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to trust him again. When he feels the need to hide and lie about it and does it all the time behind your back, there’s more going on. He swears there isn’t anything going on, but why hide and lie about it if there isn’t anything going on? I can’t figure it out and after all these fights and crying and everything, at this point, it’s all up in the air whether or not I’ll ever trust him again. It never entered my mind about him even LOOKING at other girls, now I catch myself watching his eyes and trying to look perfect and feeling like one ugly piece of crap. If he had quit after the first time, I wouldn’t be going through this. I don’t know where you draw the line of being forgiving or being a doormat. I’m still trying to figure it out.
Karmic Equation says
Cassandra,
Once you started feeling bad in a relationship, it’s on you to GET OUT of it. It’s not incumbent on HIM to change so that YOU feel better.
If you’ve told him, more than once, and he’s re-offended that many times, your heartache and insecurity is of your own making.
Get out now and, while you’ll be sad, lonely, and miss his sorry *ss, you’ll start to regain your dignity. And in time, your self-esteem.
Cassandra says
There definitely needs to be boundaries, or it’ll get out of control. Just like it did with me.
Bobby Goldstein says
Listen to me very carefully,
If I were you I would divorce him. Porn is sexual infidelity in my book and if I ever find this man I swear on my mothers life I will kill him. Just sayin
Bobstar
petitlapin says
Fascinating discussion, all! Does anyone else wonder what the OP ended up doing? I know I do. 🙂
Karls and Karmic Equation: I really, really like all the points you all made.
Karl T – thank you for posting the most rational arguments for every point that I’ve ever seen here (other than Evan’s)! We need more like you. I agreed with you 150%.
Karmic Equation – Like you, I only go to guy friends now for advice. My girl friends have worn out their welcome with their “You’re being treated like a doormat! Don’t take that! Men have no respsect! They’re all horrible!” comments, ad nauseum (and yeah – they are all single, or just beginning to learn what I have already learned about what Evan teaches us here). I have the same experience you do with my guy friends: they’re honest; they usually tell me I’m making myself the victim and “knock it off,” and they do stand up for me if my man is truly in the wrong. Good stuff.
Dawn, and KE: I appreciate that you both were attempting to empower her by telling her, “G’on girl! Git out there and do your thang!” Your hearts were in the right place. 🙂 However, unless she’s truly in love with salsa, she should do whatever it is that makes her light shine, no matter what happens with her man. I should know.
I was married for 10 years and insecure the entire time.
I had a husband who had a passion, which I did ask him to quit. I’ve been where the OP was (but it didn’t take me as long). I used loaded terms like “compromise in the name of a relationship” and “If you loved me, you’d make me more important than your passion.” So he dropped his band. He quit playing music in a band, his passion, because I was insecure, overweight, and hated that other (younger, hotter) women ogled him at shows (and he looked back! The nerve!!!! 🙂 ). Yep, I was that girl. I made it all about looks and threw trust out the window. Looking equalled cheating. Porn was DEFINITELY cheating!!! He asked me to act in kind, and I quit my dancing hobby. We stayed home ALL. THE. TIME.
Let me tell you all how GREAT that turned out: we fell out of love, began resenting the hell out of each other and finally divorced. Couldn’t come soon enough. I was (as I mentioned) very overweight, miserable, convinced my life was over at 33. Thank God it had only just begun.
Now, the silver lining: I got myself back. I began dancing again and found a new hobby I loved: hiking! I happened to lose 50 pounds and for the first time in my life, I was incredibly physically fit. My light was turned on again. I was responsible for my own happiness – and I was happy as hell! So it’s not surprising that I fell deeply, deeply in love with the most amazing man I’ve ever met. Guess what? He’s tall, dark, and handsome (even at 40, he gets stared at by 20-somethings all the time!). He’s a flirt. He’s also an independent man with many hobbies he’s passionate about – some of which (hiking, backpacking, camping) I share with him. He’s gone a lot for one of the others (fishing – he’s on a four-day trip right now :)), and that has taught me trust. It’s the first time in my life that I trust a man. Sad, but true! Hey, better now than never…And oh yeah, he is CRAZY about me. He knows how amazing I am and finally, so do I. I’ve finally met my match. And he’s taught me so much. 🙂
Moral of the story? I would never, EVER ask someone I love to drop ANY of his passions just because they make me insecure (I learned that lesson the hard way). I would NEVER ask him to quit flirting, because it’s who he is and part of the reason I fell in love with him! I own my insecurities. Do I realize that sometimes, while out fishing, my boyfriend and his brothers end up at a bar or in a campsite where there are 20-something girls around, who may come over and share their fire/some beers with them? Sure. He’s even told me about it happening! But I trust him. And I’m happy for him – I don’t believe he’d act on it, and I know he enjoys the attention. This does not make him a cad – it makes him who he is. But I’m okay with that. 🙂
For the OP – heck, I don’t know if her husband is a cad. We only heard her side of the story. We only saw through her potentially tained lens. Is he an arse? Yeah, could be. Is she like I was, more and more threatened and less and less secure with herself, because she’s dropped all hobbies and anything to bolster her own self-worth? Could be. I’m not here to judge, but to say…we women need to take a LOT more accountability for our own happiness. That said, she’s damn unhappy. Talk to him. Use “I” statements. “When you openly flirt with women in front of me (age shouldn’t matter), I feel disrespected.” Or better yet – maybe this is about more: “I feel like you spend so much time on salsa and porn lately, and we haven’t even had a romantic night out in ages. Could we go out to dinner, just the two of us? Maybe I’ll get some sexy lingerie and we could rent a hotel room…” etc. Just a thought.
Thanks, EMK, for all of your wisdom and insight. You are so right, and thank you for being the voice of reason that women are actually listening to. 🙂
candace says
Firstly I would like to give a few more facts on my marriage with my salsa dancer husband.
-15 years ago I met my husband through dancing.. we started with ballroom, then argentine tango .
-five years into the marriage I became pregnant
– when I went into labour, my husband was doing a dance performance in another city… he did not rush home for the birth of his son….two weeks later I discovered he was involved with the woman that he was performing with.
– He wanted to end our marriage then, and I was prepared to divorce him but he then came back wanting to make our marriage work. I forgave him but found it difficult to trust again.
-for the next 10 years he continued to dance and I was okay with it until I found pictures that he had taken secretly of women and their private parts, including pics of my sister.
– he also would not introduce me to the salsa people and his Facebook page would never include pics of me but only of him and the women he danced with, his son, and his family.
– he no longer sleeps in our bedroom or initiates sex and claims it is because of how I make him feel ( like a pervert) which I may have done as a result of finding all of the disturbing pictures.
So in light of these facts, yes I am insecure and I do not trust him. I have been a faithful wife and I am still attractive while in my mid- 40 ‘s, and I am a very good dancer myself… I just do not enjoy dancing as much as he does. He goes dancing 3-4 times a week and does not come home until 3 am each time and he continues to do performances with others even on special days like valentine’s day or our anniversary. As for the porn, he visits it daily and is in no way interested in me joining him. This is a very secretive thing for him.
Yes , I could dance with other men, but I don’t enjoy doing sexual dances with other men and prefer to just dance with my husband…but I guess in our over sexualized world I don’t fit in. I am disheartened when I hear that dancing sexual dances with the opposite sex and flirting is ” just normal behavior” for married people.
Karmic Equation says
Divorce him, Candace.
He’s an ass.
You deserve better.
Dawn says
I haven’t read through all of the posts on this, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of the situation. I think the fact that he won’t include pictures of his wife on FB, yet includes other pictures is inconsiderate and concealing. Having a passion for dancing is one thing, having emotional affairs constantly with other women and taking nude pics of them is something entirely different (completely disrespectful and effed up! dude, you’re married!!).
Everyone loves the feeling of being acknowledged and admired, and to still feel like they’ve ‘got it’, as they get older. There also needs to be enough self-esteem, and respect for your partner to know when to draw the line. Her husband has blatantly disregarded that line, on many occasions and won’t even acknowledge her as his wife on his FB. Okay, okay… I know, it’s only FB, but let’s face it, people. Facebook is HUGE. It’s social media. If you’re concealing/hiding those that are close to you on your personal FB page, yet include everything else about you… what is that saying? What’s the difference if you went out to a club, bar, wherever…. and you take off your wedding band? It says the same thing. You don’t want to come off looking like you’re married and/or attached. How unbelievably effed up and disrespectful is that?
What do you love about this man so much, that you’re willing to sacrifice your precious time, your life, on some man who is clearly too insecure and ego-centric to realize he is disrespecting his wife? to her face? He does it because you’re allowing it. He can do whatever he chooses, however, how much are you willing to lose your self-respect and deal with this nonsense?
Innocent flirting, I think that’s fine. But taking nude pictures of women he’s dancing with?? not okay. Definitely NOT. And dancing on Valentine’s Day and other holidays AND…let’s not forget, he was having an emotional affair while you were giving birth to your only child!!!??? wth??
For myself, I was in a similar situation in a relationship where my ex boyfriend was a lead singer in a band, always flirting with other women (had cheated, a few times.. (really, what was I thinking??)), never committed to me in 10 years, and never put pictures up of me on his FB (“it’s about my music”…yea, sure, lol…). Needless to say, I finally moved on. And an awesome man walked into my life. He is definitely on the same page as I am. He is in sales, has a huge personality, attractive, funny, etc… he’s got it all, in my eyes. I KNOW that when he is innocently flirting (and it’s barely flirting), he has me right there with him, complimenting me to whoever he’s talking to. It’s awesome. I don’t have to worry… is what I’m saying.
When someone loves you, and respects you… and you know they have good character and only interested in nurturing your relationship, you can trust them to go out with friends, business trips, dancing… you get the point.
I don’t blame you for putting up a wall with your husband. He created that distrust. However, you need to either completely let go of it, and start fresh (in mind, and emotions – and w/o telling him), or you eventually move on to a man that makes you feel completely cherished. I have it. And I can tell you it feels wonderful not worrying about what someone is doing behind your back all the time. My opinion… get rid of him. Go create a wonderful life for you and your son. Life is too short to waste it on short-minded, ego-centric people. Also, ask yourself… what about your husband do you love? being funny, smart, a good dancer?… that’s all ‘surface’ qualities. The kind that gives you butterflies, like in high school. You’re not in HS anymore. Is there respect there? does he make you feel cherished, desired, and loved completely? …really question why you love him. And if you can’t come up with much other than superficial qualities… it may be time to think about moving on for good. Good luck 🙂
Candace says
Just want to clarify that he did not take nude pictures, rather the pictures were taken secretively and the women were unaware that he was taking pictures of their butts and their crotches… under tables, while they were dancing…..
Evan Marc Katz says
Ah, that’s better.
Dear Cadance says
IMO !!! Cadance needs very serious communication.
Cadance, I think you are on the right path.
Is my husband behaving in a socially NORMALLY accepted fashion?
The answer is NO. He is strongly exhibiting unlawful deviant behavior.
You may be catching on slowly because these behaviors increase slowly.
You are possibly afraid of your thoughts and discoveries, thus the under the radar “virtual” world for seeking help. But yes, you’ve repeated your question 3 times and yes, you have good reason to now seek the appropriate authorities. I can validate your concern and you may have to do some serious police work of your own. You do not sound like an insecure lady, you sound like a women who may be reading a map to misfortune. So yes, you have every reason to clarify your suspicions, seek answers.
You should start by retracing your relationship from the beginning. Read up on voyeurism and deviant behavior as stated under the criminal code.
Don’t become paranoid or jump to conclusions. You’ve started under the radar keep it there for a while. But understand that as in abusive relationships that gradually worsen, so does sexual criminal activity. Take care, be safe, remain clear and a personal thank you for what may stop a spiral to serious injury to others.
Suzanne says
Wow, I think you are so off base I don’t even know where to begin… Ok, forget about whether their
marriage is stable or not… There is a simple rule that can be followed and that is the no ‘ s have it. In other words if the wife is uncomfortable with her husband dancing with anyone, then he should accept & respect her wishes. The same could be said if one spouse wants, children and the other spouse does not; the
no ‘s have it. It is not a sacrifice, but rather a compromise. Now, the decision of whether or not to raise kids should of been decided during the courtship, prior to marriage. It is irrelevant that salsa is a sexy dance requiring sexy dancers!
Donna Marie says
I think this last comment from whatsgoingon is absolutely dead on target for the reality of the situation.
This woman is hurting inside and he should care. Whether it is irrational or not. He should care more and try
harder to be respectful of his wife and her feelings.
Don says
I think he is very insecure deep down inside! He needs attention to make himself feel attractive. He should be satisfied with you but he is not which in my opinion he has a problem! He should be more sensitive to your needs but he seems to only care about his! I know because my wife is the same way but only under different circumstances. Life is way to short so cut him loose and find someone that will make you feel special!
janet says
Why does it have to be insecure? What is wrong with not liking flirting? It is so disrespectdul to flirt in front of your wife. Dance once in a while, getting old theres no need to obsess with it and be willing to throw your wife away. Insecure or not shes expressed it hurts her and instead of taking it down a notch he takes it up…not cool. And porn!! Really, your considered insecure if your bothered by your husband watching porn? What a load Of crap! Id like to think that my husband is in love w me…all of me and his eyes are for me. Sex and love are intended for that couple. Im so sick of everyone showing their bodies and their sex acts, there is no shame or modesty…what should be reserved for your lover is public and its bull shit. So while you can give more info and answer queations all you care to or not here my piece of advice: choose your battles sweeety, sometimes you have to bite your tongue cuz its really really not worth the fight. But when it is worth it, you fight and you fight hard. If he literally chooses a sport or a hobby over you, his princess well fuck him! Your feelings are valid and you deserve to be loved and respected.
Larson Tory says
“I say this as a flirt and a good husband as well”
A.K.A. I’m going to continue to flirt to keep my options open, whether I”m dating or not.
That’s precisely what’s going on, whether you admit to it, or not.
It’s unacceptable and very disrespectful. This is a black/white issue. Don’t try to beat around the bush.
I’m a man,dating a woman. This is part of mutual respect – not flirting with members of the opposite sex. If I’m disrespected by a woman I’m dating who flirts with other men – it’s over.
Karmic Equation says
There’s flirting and there’s flirting. I flirt all the time.. I put any interaction with the opposite sex that elicits a smile, chuckle, grimace, or eye roll, “flirting”. Flirting does NOT have to have sexual undertones.
I don’t see anything wrong with telling a 74 year old guy “you’re too old for me” with a smile and a wink, if it makes him smile. In the same way I’ll tell a 24-yo guy, “You’re too young for me, cub.” Of course, when I’m in a relationship, these interactions are done either with my man watching me (and I give him a smile and wink to include him in the joke) or if I flirt when he’s not around, I make sure I interject somewhere in the interaction I have a bf.
Flirting is harmless, depending on the intent of the flirter. If a man or woman flirts intending to get the other sex aroused, then that’s not cool, if either of them are in a relationship. However, flirting to elicit smiles or good-natured groans, is all good. Even 74 yo men need to feel they still got it. lol
Most men and women flirt ONLY when they find the other party attractive. And they only know how to flirt with sexual undertones. So if they see their partners flirting, they assume that their partners find the other party attractive. The goal of a good flirt is to make the other person smile and feel good. Not to get in their pants.
If that’s not the way YOU flirt, you’re not a good flirt.
And when a good flirt finds someone attractive, it’s not that difficult to kick flirtation into the next gear. And with or without sexual undertones, the attraction will be clear to the flirtee.
Wendy says
@Larson Tory #143: Spot on! Flirting is all about keeping your options open so that when the relationship he’s currently in fails (which it will, sooner or later, when the wife finally grows a ball and leaves the idiot for someone who respects her), he can smoothly move right in on his next target to minimize the time spent not having sex. I’ve known more than a few flirters in my life and they’re all the same. When married/taken men flirt with me I’m just so grossed out! Doesn’t matter if he’s a Brad Pitt lookalike–it’s just–GROSS!
niki says
thats a load of rubbish..flirting is rude.I dont care how secure u r with urself or ur relationship. For u to ask how her relationship is aside from his constant leering and flirting.what do u think?I’m positive he’s cheating on her if she’s stopped going out with him because she’s ashamed to be seen with this middle aged horn dog.now he has nothing to lose..hes most def gonna chest if given the opportunity. Men r dogs they think with their little heads..sadly.
Fee says
If a man wants to only dance with young women, and flirts with younger women your marriage is in trouble Candace.
Have a look at Marriage Builders.com for some sane advice.
Evan – to tell someone that your partner CAN watch porn is irresponsible. Have you ever seen Linda Lovelace and how she now campaigns against the porn industry? Have you seen what the porn industry does to people? Evan – you are in the wrong job, you are giving, irresponsible, dangerous advice.
Evan Marc Katz says
Tell that to the thousands of women I’ve helped, Fee. If you think that everyone who watches porn is somehow deviant, you will be cutting off a LOT of very normal men who can make for potentially great life partners. If you don’t see it that way, that’s fine, but if anyone is giving bad advice, it’s you – telling women to panic and overreact to the many, many, many men who use porn the way they drink alcohol, occasionally and responsibly.
jodi says
I can understand where she is coming from. My husband of six months flirts with every woman that is around. He makes him self known and get pretty overboard with dirty jokes and even thinks its ok to text and talk to other women. We do not have an active sex life because he says he has lost interest at 52. Would he cheat if the opportunity arose, i would hope not. He likes to check out young girls and makes sure I know he likes what he sees. Yes it hurts and only the petson dealing with it can decide how they want to handle the situation.
Tammy says
My husband has been a huge flirt for 36 years, I would say flirting is dangerous to a marriage. When one mate in a marriage is a flirt and needs to flirt for whatever reason they say, and the other mate doesn’t like it and wants them to stop, then there told its harmless or there just a jealous person that’s where its wrong. Whether it is flirting or something else when one person chooses to do something they know their partner is against it will cause problems, the other person will only feel and suffer as they do it is only logical and there will be resentments and other things that may take time but they will happen. The thing being when one person in what is suppose to be about two peoples relationship, feels their needs or desires to do something is more important the other person’s feelings it is only going to have damaging effects . When united in marriage it is about 2 becoming 1. It is a total lack of respect, caring, regard for anothers feelings, if the other person is hurt by this how can this be good for a marriage.
Karmic Equation says
You married a flirt and then you want him to change.
If you didn’t want to be married to a flirt, then you shouldn’t have married him. Don’t blame him that you’re hurt.
You changed the rules on him.
Perfect Timing says
Candace, after 32 years of marriage, I too am going through something similar. However, I truly trusted my husband and believed that he was only having fun until six years and two children into our marriage. We went to New Orleans with friends for the weekend to celebrate his birthday. My husband began flirting with a random attractive woman who reciprocated his flirting. It turned into a five hour dance marathon with inappropriate and disrespectful physical touching that I witnessed as I sat on the sidelines. In shock and disbelief I finally got the courage to leave without him while witnessing him kissing this woman goodbye on the lips chasing after me and begging me for forgiveness. After serious contemplation of my options and how it would affect my children, I decided to stay. Fast forward to today. My children are grown and happy responsible adults beginning their own independent lives. Because my husband never gave up his “fun” behavior although he did have “new boundaries”, I became more insecure in our marriage and NOT myself. He now is seeking counseling because since he decided to have another “FUN” evening at our daughter’s wedding reception with a 45 year old ex co-worker of my daughter’s (grinding their chests while dancing and kissing her goodbye also) I have taken steps to dissolve our marriage. He NOW feels threatened! It’s still all fresh. Needless to say our children are very upset. I struggle to get through each day and have a ping pong game going on in my head. However, I believe that Dawn #77 and LifeReel #78 are right, it is now time for me to take care of myself and my needs. I truly wish you Candace happiness and peace!!!
Karmic Equation says
He overstepped a reasonable boundary that first time. Married men cannot kiss non-relatives on the lips. He really shouldn’t kiss any relative on the lips, but I believe it is acceptable in some cultures.
And instead of kicking him to the curb for this DEALBREAKING behavior, you forgave him. That was big of you. But it was not the right message.
Anytime a man exhibits a dealbreaking behavior, e.g., cheating, kissing non-relatives on lips counts as cheating, covering up felonies, etc., you need to react appropriate. Letting your crazy out on dealbreaking behaviors is quite appropriate. Yell, scream, rant, rave, threaten, separate. Do what you have to do to make sure he gets your message loud and clear.
But you do this ONLY for dealbreaking behaviors…meaning that he’s very clear you WILL end the relationship if he EVER exhibits such behavior again. And you need to carry through on ending the relationship. If you forgive him again, he’ll know you didn’t mean it. You’re not a woman of your word and he WILL walk all over you…again. And you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Implement a two-strike rule on dealbreaking behaviors. Forgive the first time, if you truly want to. But you get out on the 2nd time. This preserves your sense of self-esteem. And it sends a clear message that you mean what you say and are not a doormat.
But make no mistake. You HAVE TO make a big stink that first time. If you’re “cool” about a dealbreaking behavior the first time, he won’t be disincentivized to trying it again.
GG says
I don’t get it. People will always flirt its what is in us . Acting on that is a matter of choice. You can’t stop someone from acting out by trying to control and police every action. We want to change people and we can’t. Stop living in fear that he will cheat. If you can’t handle the persons flirtatious personality than leave. We put to much focus on what the other person is doing. Not enough attention on what makes you happy. Nothing wrong with flirting.
Robin says
Evan, you flirt and your wife is okay with it? Both of those things are just wrong. Your flirtatiousness should only be with your wife. But if your wife is okay with it, then have at it I guess.
Evan Marc Katz says
We trust each other and the flirting is mild and without intent. Secure people in good relationships aren’t threatened by benign behavior.
Karmic Equation says
Robin,
The problem is that MOST people think that flirting conveys sexual intent. For some people that is the ONLY time they flirt.
For other people to whom flirting comes naturally, you can flirt with a 5 year old boy without saying a word. I did this when a little boy who was with his mom, stared at me a long time. I suspect he had never seen an Asian female before. I gave him a wink. He then immediately turned to his mom and exclaimed, “Mom, that lady WINKED at me!!” And mom and I made eye contact and smiled.
I’ve flirted with 80 year old men, whom I found FAR from attractive. They might say something like, “If I were 20 years younger…” and I’d give them a bright smile and say “You, flirt, you! You must have been a heartbreaker then because you still are now.”
Not all flirting, in fact, most flirting by good flirts, have nothing to do with sex or sexual interest. It’s just another way to make others feel good and attractive about themselves and have nothing to do with the sexual interest or intent of the flirter.
Valerie says
A great explanation. 🙂
Robin says
Maybe so, but the fact that most people DO think it conveys sexual intent, is the reason a husband should not do it. It can open the door to a problem. Some women will go along with the flirting, and they don’t care if the man is married or not. ESPECIALLY, when he doesn’t even flirt to that extent with his wife. I’m sorry, that’s not acceptable.
Robin says
And by the way, if he’s masturbating to porn, then it HAS hurt his sex life.
renee says
Candice wake up tht man is so not attractive to you nor was he ever but u married him anyway. How desperate are you. So what u love him tht doesnt mean u sty with a man who doesnt give a shit abt u are u crazy. Or what
JoJO says
Men want it all, are programmed to have it all, to become their all. To do it all.
Seems society and testosterone create success craving men everywhere. Power is said to the best aphrodisiac and orgasm. It seems more than not, appearances outweigh ethics.
Most men are hunters, in this age, headhunters. The next career, the next marriage.
Society on a whole has created the “New and Improved” making us all victims or victors in our search for the answer to everything.
Love in a deep sense is protection, care and respect. Do that from within and it will be easy to see the truth in others.
Jessica says
Flirting Partners
I have a partner who likes to flirt. He says its innocent fun. He likes to be around women and he loves the attention. He too makes me feel uncomfortable and insecure. I feel that men who flirt have their own insecurities and lack self esteem. If your husband is happy with you and his relationship with you, there is no need for him to flirt. Some men want the best of both worlds. I say, talk to him, tell him how you feel. If he loves you, he will understand and try not to make you feel uncomfortable.
Deborah Michaliszyn says
I think it’s inappropriate. Of COURSE he is in fact leaving her alone to dance with all these women, and the excuse of it all is that it’s “salsa”. The only way you could say he isn’t is if the three of you are dancing salsa together in one dance. So he’s leaving her alone. What makes you think his wife would enjoy dancing “salsa” with other men, as being a solution to being left alone?? Does she have to force herself to like salsa and force herself to be attracted to everyone else, and learn to have feelings she doesn’t have just to even things out? How dumb. men make all sorts of rediculous excuses for their rude behaviour. It makes her unhappy, and I’m glad she realizes it and is considering getting out of the situation. He;s making her happy and doesn’t care, and it’s getting worse and worse. That’s how selfish he is. Marriage is supposed to be about self sacrificial love. you are supposed to be thinking of the other person, and they be thinking about you. However, this habit is inappropriate and I don’t think he’ll change. It’s unfortunate that he can’t put his foolishness side and consider his wife’s feelings. I would say, if the guy can’t control himself, then he shouldn’t get married. He doesn’t deserve a wife. He should know how to behave around her, at the very least making sure she doens’t have to go through it. I know a lot of men who protect their wives feelings and behave themselves. they wouldn’t invite other women to give them extra attention, especially in her presence!! They have respect. I think he’s disrespecting you. I don’t think you are insecure. Insecure would be if he never does anything like this, and you are worried if he saw a pretty woman from the corner of his eye, and he looked away to boot. That’s insecure. this is, he’s rude and you are “putting up” with bad behavior. And the more men think this is ok, the more they will push their luck. Let them go if they want to make a game of your heart. He has no class. And I know a lot of men who would agree with me.
JJ says
well said!!
Pam says
The reason she stays is because she thought in time he would mature and take the marriage seriously. What they share should be more importatnt than his little thrills. I KNOW, I have lived it 35 years! GET OUT IF YOU CAN!. I stayed for the kids and now am stuck, it only makes you resent him more over the years. You keep hoping he will see what you have, but he won’t, it is a selfish attitude and you will never be happy with him. I gave up my happiness for my family because he provided well and I was able to spend more time with my kids. Who all turned out scholarly, but my girls are tough on their spouses, I actually feel sorry for the husbands. I believe it it made them not want to be a doormat like me. I know I will see comments like why didn’t I get out, but there were extenuating circumstances that I can’t go into. Just get out, all the counseling in the world won’t help. Tried that 7 different times!
JJ says
Pam, no one can judge you why you didn’t get out… But woman like me can thank you for your honest advice.
So – thank you!
JJ says
This post and some comments made me so angry! How dare we blame women for their insecurities!! If we are insecure- it’s because our husbands made us feel less worthy!!
Imagine same scenario, with reversed roles – where woman is flirting with younger man, and all other thinks… Then ask men what do they think about!
Ladies, unless we stand up for ourselves- these sleazy bags will walk all over us!
cris says
I dont know about that advice. What does salsa dancing have to do with watching porn? Apples and oranges. There is something wrong here. Very wrong. You have explained how his flirtatious behavior makes you feel, yet he is determined to do it regardless. This shows that he does not respect your feelings. He sounds like a selfish showoff. Dont let him spend time at the dance hall without you. If he flirts in front of you, theres no telling what he would do behind your back.
Judy Yates says
Is he worth a life sentence? You will have to spend the rest of your life with someone who makes you feel bad! Is that love? Why are his needs more important than yours? That’s a sad life. On your death bed will you feel that you’ve had love or just settled?
Pamela T-C says
Hi Candace, I hope you have left him by now. The photos alone are the only reason you need. They are criminal and actionable. I suggest you tell your sister, so she can charge him. He’s a creep and a predator, and you know it. You can’t even sleep in the same room as him anymore. As for his “flirting” and “dancing” to 3-4 in the morning with other women, it is extremely disrespectful towards you and borders on abusive, given he knows beyond a doubt how painful and unhealthy it is for you and your marriage. That’s not love. Pay attention to how terrible it makes you feel. No decent healthy relationship should cause that kind of suffering. It’s unacceptable. It has already led to affairs for him. More affairs are just a matter of opportunity and reciprocation combined with a couple of drinks and a sexually charged atmosphere. 40’s are young – this isn’t going to end any time soon. And it will just get more repulsive. I have experienced a similar situation with my ex-SO of nine years, who is 62. He’s a dyed-in-the-wool flirt. I never tried to change him (I understand it’s impossible to change anyone and it’s the last thing I’m interested spending my precious time and energy doing), but I did stupidly assume the behavior would fade away with age. I was wrong. It will still be going on when he is 72, 82, 92… He’ll be a real hit with all the women in the nursing home. He actually thinks he’s doing them a favor – “it makes them feel good”. Sure, it might, but what it really does is make HIM feel good – gives him a giant ego boost. But he knows it’s at my expense, and must think I am blind, deaf and dumb not to notice his “crushes”, and for them not to hurt me. (Evan, you are fooling yourself – or at least your wife is fooling you – if you think she just laughs your “crushes” off like you are a cute, sheepish ten year-old. Ew.) It hurts. It doesn’t hurt because I am insecure. I am an attractive, successful, fun, friendly, creative, highly educated, sexual, sexy 54 year old woman who is deeply secure in myself. It hurts, because when you love someone in a healthy way, you care about their feelings and go out of your way to ensure you are not disrespecting them. And the other partner does the same back. Period. Flirting has sexual overtones – that’s the whole purpose of it. An adult (who is not a pedophile) winking at a 5 year old boy is not flirting. I feel sorry for women and men when I see their partners flirting with other people. The partner may put on a brave, I-don’t-care face, but you can see how humiliating and demoralizing it is for her or him. Sure, love and relationships are complex, but Candace, it doesn’t mean you have to allow your self-esteem to be eroded. You are young and vital – you have your life ahead of you. Respect yourself without compromise and others will too. You should be looking forward to the future, not dreading it.
Evan Marc Katz says
@Pamela
(“Evan, you are fooling yourself — or at least your wife is fooling you — if you think she just laughs your “crushes” off like you are a cute, sheepish ten year-old. Ew.)
It’s literally impossible for you to tell the state of my wife’s mind. You are imposing your value system on her, instead of respecting the fact that, in fact, not everybody thinks like you. We went out for drinks two weeks ago at a busy Hollywood bar. Since we knew about a dozen people there, we didn’t talk the entire four hours we were out. On the ride home, she told me that she got hit on by at least 4 men and was pleasantly surprised that 35-year-old guys were still interested in her. I told her that I wasn’t surprised; she’s beautiful, she’s awesome, she’s cool – no wonder they were all over her.
1. Are you suggesting that I should have been mad at my wife? If so, I don’t understand. It doesn’t matter if she talked to one young guy for over an hour at the bar (which she did). She left with ME. What do I care if someone was attracted to her or she was attracted to someone?
2. If you DON’T think I should be mad at my wife, is it possible that you’re employing a double standard? Women can flirt with men in public in front of her husband; men can’t.
Either way, your logic doesn’t hold up. So keep doing what you’re doing. I’ll keep doing what I’m doing – giving men AND women the right to flirt innocently – and we can agree to disagree. In the future, if you comment here, please don’t insult me. I’m not obliged to post comments on my own website that imply that I’m an awful person with a sham of a marriage and a miserable doormat of a wife under the First Amendment. Thanks.
Pamela T-C says
Hi Evan, I truly apologize. I did not intend to insult you or make assumptions about you and your wife, but I see that I did just that and completely understand your response. You are both so lucky that your relationship is strong, secure and healthy. I’m happy for you – that’s the way it should be. We should be proud that others find our partners attractive, and that we are attractive to others. It’s part of the fun and vitality of life. It’s a very emotional and raw topic for me. I left my SO recently, and I’m sad and devastated. I found this blog very helpful today and read every single comment. It gave me more insight into my ex, as well as strengthened my own determination to be treated with respect. I think there are flirting distinctions. There is innocent fun flirting, like what you describe at the party with your wife, and there’s flirting with an unhealthy, hurtful history in a relationship. It’s the latter that I experienced, and I am assuming that Candace has experienced. But you are right, we can’t know anyone’s entire story. I don’t think I’m even talking about flirting as the issue – it feels like something else – behavior that is precursor to an affair. You have taught me something important – thank you.
Darlene Baumann says
I think this is horrible advice and opposite from everything else I’ve ever read. It is “NATURAL” but so is taking a poop but we don’t do that whenever or wherever we want because there is something called BOUNDARIES and what is socially acceptable. It is disrespectful and hurtful to flirt. I would talk to your husband about your feelings and if he is not willing to change or at least try. Leave. Period. This means he is completely disregarding your feelings. I would rather be alone than to be with someone who didn’t care about hurting my feelings. He is being selfish and just caring about how HE feels and what HE wants. Marriage is a two way street. How would he like it if you dirty danced with some studly guy. If he wouldn’t care, then he probably doesn’t care about you and I wouldn’t want to be with someone who didn’t care about me.
Ann says
He leers in her presence. He apparently does not according her any status in public either. He knows she has pulled back yet hasn’t mitigated her distance.
JSCZ says
I love it when people assume the flirting victim (in this case the wife) is “insecure.” She could be the most secure person in the world, but when other people react to, or think of her differently because her husband is a flirt, is she supposed to disregard or live with this uncomfortable situation? Isn’t it disrespectful of him to subject her to this? I don’t think flirting is necessarily a divorceable offense but, at some point, the flirter needs to put his spouse’s feelings above getting his ego stroked.
What it comes down to is respect. I have consciously not overtly flirted my entire married life because 1) it is disrespectful to my husband 2) I was afraid the flirting would lead men on and they would misunderstand. This doesn’t mean I never flirted, everyone does. It’s a matter of degree. When people come up to you and mention your husband’s flirting, or think of you or your marriage in a negative way because of his flirting, then I think that’s detrimental to the marriage and, again, is highly disrespectful. It shows and utter lack of regard for your partner. How can you have a successful marriage if the partners don’t show respect for one another?
I’ve been married to a serial flirter for 46 years. I’m just now getting fed up with it. And, no, it’s not because I’ve lost my looks. I can still compete with women half my age! In fact, I’ve been told I look half my age! What irks me is how my husband is willing to let others perceive me, and our marriage, in a negative light, just so he can stroke his overblown ego.
All I know is I wish I’d done something about it earlier. Maybe not divorce, but I sure would have upped my flirting game to match, or excel, his. I wonder how he would have taken it? Somehow, I don’t think he would have taken it well at all. Live and learn.
sindi says
I think they’re both going through a mid-life crisis of some sort. they’re both feeling old. he’s trying to feel young with looking at younger women porn and dancing with younger sexier women , living in a fantasy world making him think he’s still desirable to the younger opposite sex and the wife just feels like she’s over the hill because her husband no longer desires her the way he does the younger women. understandable. question is what do you do about it? we’re all going to go through this if we live long enough. it’s easy to give solutions when you’re young and attractive and still marketable, but when the age and wrinkles set in, you start to feel unwanted, useless, undesirable etc.
just the way it is says
He’s getting older and needs the younger women for an ego boost that he’s still got it. Evan says he flirts and is faithful and doesn’t bother his wife, true ….for now. when the wrinkles come and Evan no longer is so “into” his wife after years of marriage, i wonder how that situation will play out? for either of them. i’d bet Evan will be the same way, he will flirt with younger women to get an ego boost and wifey will not like it one bit, because she will feel like yesterday’s news. things and people change with the years and situations. just because a man starts out being faithful doesn’t mean he will stay that way. not many men when they get older is going to reject the advances of a pretty young thing, or even a decent looking one for that matter. he might think hey, i’m getting older , i might not get any more offers, i’d better take this one up on it, might be my last chance! just haven’t seen it working out is all. women don’t trust men cause we know they for one aren’t usually trustworthy, they justify their behavior as being “harmless” when they know good and well what they’re doing. their flirting with danger. yes it makes them feel alive and youthful, but they are walking a thin line that usually they’ll cross and may or may not feel horrible for it depending on if they get caught or not. women want to trust their husbands, but in reality we know they can be so easily swayed it’s not funny. a woman can just look at a man and he gets so enthused he can’t contain himself. why would we think he could say no if she actually offered something? like a kid in a candy store just too tempting to turn down.
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s been 12 years. My wife is 50. We’re going strong. Flirting isn’t exactly a big part of our lives but neither of us would flip out if the other spent an hour talking to an attractive member of the opposite sex at a party. We’re happy and secure. Why worry about meaningless social interaction?