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It’s a cute piece, and I linked to it on Facebook (become my friend!) to get the reactions of some friends. Reliable reader Cheri wrote this on my Facebook page in response:
Ok while I understand “The Rules” are a bunch of folly, the article flies in the face of your advice that tells women to sit back and see what he does; if we like it stay, if we don’t go. So how to resolved the two?
Great question, Cheri – and suitable fodder for my blog. In short, The Rules is a good concept, taken too far. Your goal is not to feign permanent indifference and make him beg for you – lots of good guys won’t be up for begging. Your goal is to assess how serious he is about you by allowing him to make an effort on his own accord.
So while I wouldn’t advocate the exact regimen of the author – phoning him regularly, for example, isn’t a recommended move – the spirit of her article is correct.
The easiest way to do this is by mirroring – giving back the same effort you get from him. That way, you never put yourself out there to “chase”: no “miss u” texts or “when are we getting together?” phone calls. You just allow him to reveal himself to you with his actions.
Sure, you can go out to a bar and smile at a cute guy to get him to approach you. You can write a flirty confident first email that lets him know that it’s HIS lucky day if he writes back. This isn’t needy – this isn’t Sadie Hawkins – this is getting you in the game.
But after that, it’s ALL up to him. Your best move is to sit back and let him win you over.
If he doesn’t try hard enough or consistently enough, it’s pretty obvious what you should do next.
Jennifer says
Agree completely Evan…the Rules is a good concept taken (way) too far.
Most guys are not going to turn down a decent (or even not so decent in some cases) looking chick that is clearly into him- whether it’s because he’s bored, or horny or just doesn’t want to ‘hurt her feelings’ (i put it in quotes cause if a guy isn’t into a girl, it’s not a matter of if he’ll hurt her feelings but really when).
And most women who chase men plan to only do it until they feel they ‘have’ them- they don’t intend for it to be a permanent state. But they are in for a really bad surprise when they stop chasing and find that their love interest isn’t so interested after all. Easiest way to avoid this? Don’t chase.
But of course we all know that if a women were really to follow the Rules to the letter, she’d be one lonely chick, or only enjoying the company of equally manipulative or similarly flawed men, which I think is an even worse alternative.
Evan’s advice a while ago said it best- give him a chance to act, to do something, to show some interest, and take it from there.
Selena says
Cute story but what would have happened if she hadn’t spotted him while out running? He’d already blown off their “email relationship” twice and there was no reason to believe he was really interested.
I suppose the moral of this story is meant to be throw out “the rules”, but what comes across to me is to meet in person as soon as possible. lol!
starthrower68 says
Well hi, it’s the Cheri in question here. So much for being incognito on the blog now. I ask the question because when a guy has disappeared, I always think it’s my fault; that I must have said or done something to scare him off because I came across as needy or desperate. So now I really hesistate to take the initiative for that reason. I know it’s possible that a guy disappears just because he does, but it doesn’t make me feel any better about asking or calling.
delicia says
2 things-
This situation is clearly the exception, not the rule (no pun intended). The guy disappeared on her twice (ok, first time when his mom was sick, that I can understand)… but to do it again? I agree with the comment above that what would have made her think he was interested? I guess that’s when fate stepped in and they ran into each other randomly on the street. Maybe at that point he just realized he had feelings for her. Guys aren’t that complicated, who knows.
Second, Cheri, this story is evidence that guys can just disappear for no reason and you cannot torture yourself thinking that something you did/said drove them away. Easier said than done, I know. The moral of this story to me was sometimes you have to spur things along a little bit, it’s definitely a gray area because you don’t want to come off as too eager, but it’s ok to show here and there that you care. Lots of guys are insecure too and showing your interest in a subtle but encouraging way – well then, at least you know that you did what you could do. If it doesn’t work out the way you had hoped, at least you tried. If he wasn’t feeling it, his loss. This story also made me realize how important timing is… and helps me let go and realize that, if things are meant to be, when the timing’s right, they’ll be.
Nick says
Everyone is – understandably enough – looking for concrete signposts, pointing the way to the promised land of blissful union. Look around yourself for a moment, though, and you’ll see that each of us walks a very individual path, and only if we all seek to meet up with the same person are we meant to follow the same rules or guidelines…
There is only one dictum worth following, and that is the cliched “follow your heart”. A cliche is, after all, a motto that applies so successfully, it becomes shopworn through overuse. Why follow any other guide than your heart, when it is for your heart, after all, that you seek to find a home?
You will f*** up, yes, and often. But you won’t find true love and happiness by manipulating the world around you to meet your needs, as you currently understand them. First off, your needs change. Simple as that. Secondly, one must never forget the law of “equal and opposite” orces: if you manipulate the world around you, you will end up being manipulated yourself, sooner or later.
Leave yourself open (that doesn’t mean gullible or naive) to the possibilities that abound, and – with a modicum of intelligent thought included – allow your emotions to guide your actions, tempered by good sense and sensibility.
If you are compelled to call him, do so. If this means reaching out a little further than he already has, so what? He may just be slow to understand what a gem you are, or he may be stuck in the quagmire of past negative relationships. Sometimes, us guys require a little more pushing to come unglued, but once you get us going, there’s no stopping us!
I met a woman many years ago, and we had a lousy date, and I blew her off. She called me a few days later and nudged me. We got married a year and a half later, and I have the most wonderful family now.
Follow your heart.
felicia says
thank you for telling your story
Nini says
this is very encouraging.. Very often I am confused by whether I should tell my guy how I feel or follow the guideline to be cool. The guideline usually worked for the beginning, with time going on, you only realized this was not what you wanted..
Desiree says
Thank you for sharing. I needed that
hunter says
Nick,
..I think reference is made to, who was the first to say “hi”……the first three dates are anxiety filled(most likely, they won’t go well)….
Patricia says
Bye Felicia
Marc says
The pre-internet rules no longer apply in the world of online dating. Granted, a woman with a decent picture and a generic profile will be bombarded with emails from men, and she may feel like she has unlimited choices. However, since men have to email tons of women to get just a few responses, they generally forget who they’ve emailed seconds after they click the send button. At least that was my experience. So it doesn’t behoove most women to wait around for guys to chase them online. There are simply too many choices and it’s too easy to shoot off an email to a woman even if the response rate is ridiculously low.
Marc´s last blog post…How To Lose a Guy in 10 Words
Selena says
Also, the story doesn’t explain why he stopped emailing her the second time. (Assuming the first time is a legimate reason; personally I don’t see why he couldn’t keep emailing her even though his mom had a heart attack, but whatever). One could presume he became involved with someone else. But happened to be single again when she saw him on the street?
Sure the author broke some of “The Rules”, but still, seems more a matter of timing than anything.
Jennifer says
I just read the article- I’m really happy it had a happy ending for the author, but i’m not feeling that second disappearing act, or even the first really; how hard is it to say ‘family emergency, can’t talk for a while’?
I agree with other posters, this is about way more than just throwing the Rules out of the window- would he have gotten back in touch if she hadn’t seen him that day?
starthrower68 says
I guess that I would find it very difficult to even speak to the guy casually if he had disappeared twice. I would have been more likely just to let it go and move on.
Muffy says
I don’t understand why this is always such a complicated issue. I think the Rules really set women back and men, who are aware of the book, just become even more self involved and self oriented in the dating arena. It seems it’s all about the guy. I wish that women could get their power back. If we continue to buy into these games, they will just go on endlessly. If two people like each other, they should both make an effort to make it clear and to see each other.
Muffy´s last blog post…Manscaping – A shaved head is hot! A shaved **** is not.
Selena says
Yeah Starthrower, I don’t think I would have stopped to talk to him either. Isn’t there a *rule* where you don’t bother with someone who blew you off twice before you even met? Should be. Grin. Makes it better story though. (I guess.)
BeenThruTheWars says
The Rules boil down to having good boundaries and dating with self-esteem. That’s the underpinning of all the books. People get way too hung up in the “don’t accept a Saturday night date after Wednesday” directive (and that’s as far as most people ever read or listen), and pan the whole concept because of that one thing they don’t like. But what it’s really about is, put some value on your own time, don’t be overly anxious/needy/overly available, and expect to be treated with respect while you also respect the person you’re dating. That’s it.
Evan’s advice and The Rules are not diametrically opposed. I can say that 1) knowing Evan (having been coached by him prior to my marriage), and 2) being a Certified Rules Dating & Relationships Coach myself, having studied with Sherrie & Ellen. There is very little I tell my own clients that Evan wouldn’t tell his. I have the utmost respect for Evan’s approach, but that does not invalidate “The Rules” as an approach for those whom the books “speak to.”
The most interesting thing I’ve found is, all good relationship advice is essentially saying the same thing. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Self-esteem, self-esteem, self-esteem. It’s a matter of finding the author or coach whose style is most meaningful to you, and resonates most clearly. Some people can’t stand the tone that “The Rules” is written in; I say fine, go read Sherry Argov or John Gray. Or Evan! Exact same information, but presented in a different style.
I suggest that we not bash other approaches but instead embrace them all, and do that thing they teach in the 12-step programs: “Take what you want and leave the rest.”
delicia says
Ladies and gents, keep in mind that the woman in the article in question and her now-husband HAD NEVER MET IN PERSON before she spotted him on the street. To me, that’s a game-changer. Was it rude for him to disappear on her twice? Yes. However, two people have so little (if anything) is invested in each other during the email phases of online dating that I don’t really think much of his disappearing acts. Online dating at that point for him was probably low on his priority list. Regardless, this is still one of those one-in-a-million type of stories. While I’m glad it worked out for the happy couple, I don’t expect events like this to occur very frequently.
Sigrid Macdonald says
Evan, thanks so much for the post. I must say that I have ambivalent feelings about The Rules and reviewed the book on my own website about a year ago. Suffice to say that it all sounds very sexist to let the guy call all the shots. So I like your modification but I still think that it gives the guy way too much power.
In my own life and relationships, I’ve always tried to treat the guy I’m seeing just the way I would a female friend (and how’s that working out for me? you ask) but of course men are socialized differently to be the hunter. It sucks but it’s reality and I’ve changed my behaviors accordingly over the years. I don’t pursue anymore and I do mirror, but I think it’s really sad and unfortunate that women have to do that.
Sigrid Macdonald´s last blog post…Book Review: Reclaiming History by Vincent Bugliosi
casualencounters.com/blog says
I guess I sort of sit in the guy in question’s camp. Women who know what they want and make life easy for men by, you know, telling them stuff are the best.
Why should dating have to be a confusing labyrinth of conjecture, inference and deduction, anyway? Who has the time?
casualencounters.com/blog´s last blog post…Faux fuck buddy needed
Curly Girl says
Hmm. Never read “The Rules.” I just hated the title. And the cover. Never read “The Secret” for the same reason. I did read “The Pearl,” though. Really sad ending. Do you think that Steinbeck had any trouble dating or finding “the one”?
Just musing.
starthrower68 says
@ casual,
No it shouldn’t be all that conjecture, etc., but it’s apparent a woman has to “be” and “not be” at the same time; open but appropriately detatched; attentive but not eager, etc. It’s still feels like walking on eggshells.
hunter says
My applause to casualencounter.
Jura says
Did anyone else get a chill running down the spine regarding the father’s role in the entire story in the article? There seems to be a rising talk about how men could gain a valuable insight into how to treat a woman by just thinking that “every woman is some man’s daughter”, and how women are in general lost if for whatever reason they do not receive a blueprint from daddy on how to be treated.
It’s good to read about one happy ending, but it indeed rather sounds like an exception. Or just that eventually, someone may/or may not, magically turn up and enter your life, if you are willing to wait until you are 35 and beyond. Which sounds, kinda, hopeful.
downtowngal says
BTW, amen, sistah! The Rules is just a metaphor for the same stuff the other self-help books say. Basically don’t put up with crap.
And I agree with casual encounters. The problem is, there’s all this advice out there (even from EMK himself!) discouraging women from stating what they want because guys see it as ‘nagging’ or they freak out because they think you want to change them. So we put up w crap and call our gf’s and overanalyze. Truth is, if a guy freak out when you set boundaries, take it as a red flag and run.
downtowngal says
I also don’t think the writer from the Times broke the “Rules” in spirit. I’ll bet when she approached the guy it was in a flirty, non-threatening way, like “Hey, are you xyz?” rather than “Hey, xyz, why’d you not call?”.
Who knows why he didn’t call….couldn’t been burned out on bad online dating experiences but when he saw her in person he realized what a gem she was.
I’ve had and seen experiences where women pick up on a vibe, make a little effort and it clicks. This is different from agressively pursuing a guy.
Jennifer says
I’ve read the Rules (and the Secret and The Pearl as well and you are right Curly Girl, the Pearl was straight depressing!) and if I remember correctly the authors did not present the Rules as something to be followed ‘in spirit’ but rather literally.
I think that is one of the reasons the Rules was so offputting to some, because it implied that they were meant to be followed to the letter, not allowing for much flexibility. That’s why i felt it was a decent concept taken too far.
I think the best self-help/dating books push the theory that you set boundaries and don’t settle for disrespect because you care about and respect yourself too much to put yourself in a compromising position, not to simply ‘appear’ aloof. Of course, it’s a lot easier to get people to act a certain way than to really feel it inside.
Karl R says
starthrower68 said: (#3)
“when a guy has disappeared, I always think it’s my fault; that I must have said or done something to scare him off because I came across as needy or desperate. So now I really hesistate to take the initiative for that reason.”
Based on my experience, I think it’s highly unlikely that this is the case. The few women who “scared me off” did so by telling me the gory details of their life stories within 30 minutes of meeting them. As long as you’re sharing details about yourself at roughly the same rate that the other person is, then you’re unlikely to have this problem.
Thinking back over the last several years, I can’t think of a single woman that I exchanged phone numbers with where that was a factor in me breaking things off (or not starting things in the first place). The real reasons included:
1) Not attractive enough
2) I was more interested in another woman
3) Too young/immature
4) She wanted kids (or had them already)
5) I believed she wasn’t that interested in me
6) We didn’t have enough in common (values or interests)
7) She was too reserved / not that fun to be around
It’s entirely possible to come across badly, but “needy” and “desperate” just aren’t common problems in my experience.
downtowngal says
Karl, thanks for the insight. Starthrower’s comment is all too common among women. When something doesn’t go wrong we tend to blame ourselves. Truth is, 99% of the time it has nothing to do w them.
starthrower68 says
Well in a sense it is our fault, according to the reasons Karl lists, with maybe the exception of 2. The rest of it we may or may not be able to do something about. I’m not being critical of women by saying that. But everything Karl lists are things I think were wrong with me when the disappearing act is pulled.
Kristyn says
I am with Starthrower – those are all things I would conclude were things that were wrong with me. I tend to be very reserved when I meet someone new and it’s not until I feel comfortable that I really start be show my personality. Take this blog, for example, I’ve been reading your comments for a year and have only recently started to add my own.
This is an interesting topic because I’ve always acted on my feelings, calling someone just to say “hi” or if I saw some little thing that reminded me of someone, i’d pick it up and give it to them and I never worried about how my actions would be construed. Of course, I was married and my actions – to me – only indicated friendship. Now, though, I’m not suppose to call guys or I have to be careful about what I say in case I scare them off. Although really, I have trouble picturing anyone scared of me. I’d like to be able to be myself – that is really what I want. To call a guy if I want to without them thinking I was chasing them, or too forward or anything other than just a call. Can’t we just be friends? Does it have to mean more?
Lance says
That’s a great article, def. recommend that everyone read it. I love the sense of excitement the author gets as she breaks all the rules and “empowers” herself. I agree with everything her therapist said, especially this part:
”Stop living in a women’s magazine version of the world,” he would plead, trying to prod me into action. ”Start being real — and having needs. You won’t have a satisfying relationship until you do.”
Man, I wish my last girlfriend realized that.
Coupla things. Online dating is the wild west and anything can happen. If he disappears, that usually means SOMETHING else is going on, whether it’s a dead grandma or another chick. I never take it personally and generally I won’t hold it against the other person because I do the EXACT SAME THING. Also, view the initial contact as an investment vs. an actual relationship. She established contact and then, via the fates, they actually met, and it took off from there. There’s no need to shut that door early on.
Lance´s last blog post…Vegas Memorial Weekend Sextacular: Preview
starthrower68 says
Or sometimes the man expresses interest and when you feel safe enough to return it, that’s when they choose to disappear. But again, I guess those are the ones that are flaky and why would we want them anyway?
Karl R says
starthrower68 said: (#25)
“everything Karl lists are things I think were wrong with me when the disappearing act is pulled.”
Kristyn said: (#26)
“those are all things I would conclude were things that were wrong with me.”
Half of them could easily be considered flaws with the guy (me):
3) She’s young and immature, but from her perspective I’m old and uptight.
4) She wants/has kids; I don’t want/have kids.
6) If we don’t share values/interests, that involves my values/interests as much as hers (provided we both have values and interests).
7) She’s reserved and not much fun, because I’m an extrovert who likes other extroverts.
Whose flaw is it? It’s a matter of perspective.
Even when we get to things like attractiveness, there’s no single standard of beauty. I don’t like bleach-blond sun-worshippers. Lance prefers thin women with small breasts. Attractiveness has as much to do with personal preferences as any unified standards.
And even if I call things off because the woman was “flawed” (in my opinion), the woman didn’t “scare me off” by being assertive. And when I bail because the woman seems disinterested, that’s the exact opposite situation. If the two women had showed initiative in calling me or asking me out on dates, I would have assumed they were interested and continued to date them.
For some perverse reason, everyone wants to internalize the blame when the other person vanishes. Usually it’s just not about us.
Kenley says
In the book “Why He Didn’t Call You Back,” that author argues that when men vanish or don’t call, more often that not, it IS the woman’s fault. And she provides a whole list of things women can do to stop turning guys off so early on in the dating process. Lots of women really liked her advice.
I personally prefer Karl’s point of view that it’s just as likely to be the guy’s issue as it is the woman’s issue. Or better yet, why can’t it simply be that the woman and the man just aren’t compatible and NEITHER person is flawed?
Evan Marc Katz says
It’s not a matter of “flawed”. Fact is, if you’re doing something that 90% of other people find irritating, it’s probably wise to learn about it.
downtowngal says
My point was that women tend to overly blame ourselves for things, I think more than men do, and we’re more open to working on ourselves. While it might be the women’s fault in some cases, it probably has more to do with the guy’s perspective and what he’s looking for. And it works the other way around as well.
I dated this guy once who pulled the disappearing act, only to find out afterwards through mutual friends that this was a pattern with HIM.
the bottom line is that if someone goes MIA, move on.
Selena says
downtowngal,
I dated this guy I met through his best friend – who called him “Flake”. After 3 weeks of things seemingly going well, he disappeared without a trace. Can’t say I wasn’t warned. LOL. Oh well, – better 3 weeks than 3 months I suppose.
Isabelle Archer says
I agree with Evan’s advice that after initially getting things rolling “it’s ALL up to him. Your best move is to sit back and let him win you over. If he doesn’t try hard enough or consistently enough, it’s pretty obvious what you should do next.” But the “let him win you over” phase cannot last that long — at some point, a girl has to have some confidence and security that the relationship is underway and now it’s a game of equals, with equal effort being made. In all my relationships, it hasn’t taken more than a few weeks to get to that point. You just *know* when he’s into you — and then you can call whenever you want.
downtowngal says
Selena,
You’re right, better 3 weeks. I like your attitude.
Feeback is helpful (like finding out that 3 gys you dated didn’t like how you spoke to the waiter while you special-ordered your food), but at some point you can’t go around trying to please everyone (he’s looking for a foodie and you only enjoy salads).
Anne says
I agree with Nick #5. Are there really guys sitting around saying that they met a great woman, and they had or have a wonderful time with her, and she is smart, attractive, etc., but then she CALLED him, and now he doesn’t want to see her anymore? I highly doubt it. I think you need to be yourself and follow your instincts.
Mary says
I don’t ever call my boyfriend. He calls me (every night, when we’re doing LDR), and i don’t think he’d have it any other way. It makes him feel like a man, I suspect. It’s interesting because I pursued him more than he pursued me early on. Now he’s doing his thing. 🙂
The Rules has to be modified to the type of guy you’re dealing with. I think they are the least effective with shy, less emotionally mature guys, who are lacking a bit in the confidence department. Being super sweet and attentive without acting desperate or needy towards the kind of guy has worked well for me.
Kendra says
It’s a miracle anyone gets involved at this rate. How depressing.
Denise says
#34, Right on Isabelle! I agree wholeheartedly with your complete post and Evan’s orignal response. There is a tempo and timing to relationships.
There’s male energy which is DOING, learning forward, then there’s female energy which is FEELING. If the woman is doing by calling, she’s being the boy energy by doing.
Then there’s the whole ‘chase’ thing men seem to love :). If a woman has her own life, her own interests and her own friends, she’s off doing her thing and he needs to make her interested enough to spend time with him. If she’s calling him right up front, takes away that aspect as well.
Not to mention that I like when a man calls me, it boosts my femininity. I live by “His job is to pursue, my job it to be receptive to that pursuit”.
I know others will disagree, but after life experience where I initiated the relationship with my ex husband, and I look back and see why that wasn’t to my benefit in multiple ways.
adrienne says
I dont know if I I should because I don’t wanna be naggy
Jenn says
With all due respect, I completely disagree that a woman should “get the ball rolling”. I tried to do that many times when I was in my early twenties. I would ask guys out (never worked), try to get mutual friends of my crushes to arrange group dates (never worked), memorize coworkers’ schedules so I could arrange to “run into” them, hoping to get them to go to lunch (never worked), give random guys my phone number if I thought they were cute (Never. Worked). You get my drift? None of these actions ever resulted in dates. All that happened was that I would cry myself to sleep at night wondering why in God’s name I couldn’t attract any of the men I liked. I constantly wondered what was so wrong with me that they weren’t interested. I made a fool of myself chasing guys but never will I EVER make those same mistakes again. I’m now in my thirties and have been online dating for the past 10 months. I’ve been sticking like glue to The Rules and while nothing’s panned out for me yet as far as having a relationship, I know with certainty that it isn’t because I’m doing anything wrong. I feel so much more confident and better about myself now than I have in years because I am trusting in this process. I’ve already seen results because of it and will continue to use this approach because IT WORKS. If anything, doing The Rules has made me much calmer and less desperate than I otherwise would be. I know that the right man for me will come along soon. As long as I do everything I need to in order to make myself available to him, that’s all I need to worry about.
Karen says
I met this guy recently and we went out on a couple of dates,but lately it seems like he is not trying to go out of his way to talk to me.I mean,I don’t expect him to call me and text me everyday,but it would be nice if he initiated a phone conversation or text message with me at least once every few days,so we can get to know each other better.I met him about two weeks ago,and so far I texted him a few times and called him once.He said that he enjoyed our two dates, and he did talk with me for a while,after I called him,and he replied back to my text,but I just want him to call me or ask me out again,so I get to know him better.Thanks for writing this article,because I was just thinking about calling him again,but I looked for advice online,because the last guy I dated went MIA,after only a few dates.I know now that it is because I was pursuing him instead of letting him pursue me,because I was so hung up on getting a boyfriend and fast. I really think that dating is easier for women(unlike me) who had fathers in their lives to help them with the dating process. Thank you to everyone who wrote comments!!!! I read some of them and decided that I will not call or text him until after he calls or txt me again, and if he doesn’t, that must mean he is not interested in me anymore and that I need to move on.It can be so hard for many of us women to go on dates and think that it might lead to a relationship,and then suddenly you’re left wondering why he isn’t pursuing you much anymore.Now I know that the article is so right about how it said that men don’t like to rush into a relationship,so all of us women just need to be very very patient.
Jennifer says
From reading these recent posts, I have three words to respond to each one: THINK ABOUT IT. What didn’t work out for one may work out for someone else, or vice versa. So, if “The Rules” did work out for you, great. If it didn’t, well, just realize that God made you uniquely different, and to be honest, I would just let nature take its course when it comes to dating and relationships. Some don’t even date randomly–like me!–because it is a wracking waste of time (a little sarcasm here, but you see my point). Furthermore, I have a reason which is between me and God, and I rather wait on God to bring the right one and I together. From then, I will make sure I do my part. I have been through too many oddities of so-called relationships, crushes, and encounters to learn this valuable lesson. So this is my aha moment in a nutshell; hopefully, everyone will see this as well…
gilly says
The guitarist of the band I saw with a friend pursued me after the last set. He had me put my number in his phone and then told me to call myself so I’d have his number. When we’re leaving he said to give him a call. I said no, he should call me. Nothing yet, but it’s only been two days.
Reading these comments has helped me realize something. If I wait for him to call, it’s because he is interested in me. If he doesn’t call, well maybe he isn’t. But if I make first contact, he may act pleased, or even ask me out, because he feels ‘obligated’. Besides, I would have a phone conversation to pick apart; one that I initiated. My having made the that first call would underscore every interaction.
Jenn says
Gilly,
You’re exactly right: “My having made the first call would underscore every action”.
That’s exactly what The Rules authors are saying. If you were to call him (or email him, or text him) first, you might be starting a relationship or interaction which was never meant to be, and consequently would only end up wasting your time and possibly getting your heart broken. All because you made the first move. And yes, I consider emailing first to be making the first move. He might respond favorably at first, and be interested for a while. You might even get a relationship out of it for a while. But what if he just responded because he’s bored and hasn’t come across anyone he’s really liked in a while? He might just choose to bide his time with you until someone he really likes comes along. Sure, maybe he’s not consciously thinking, “Hehe, I’ll just see if I can get somewhere with this chick until the girl I really want appears”. I don’t think men are that calculating, on the whole. But he might just be bored, or frustrated with the dating process and think, hey, she’s cute and she likes me so I’ll just hook up with her. You’re smart to hold out for a guy who really likes you, because the guy who really wants you will show it. He won’t put you on his list of 100 favorites and then never contact you because you’re number 99. He won’t wait for you to call or text first, he’ll beat you to it. If you are number one to a guy, you’ll know it.
hunter says
Jenn,
The person to say, “hi,” first, made the first move….
anon says
Hmmm…somewhat disagree…I think both parties should make equal effort. If a guy was just sitting there waiting for me to make the first move all the time I’d get sick of him and move on. Why would a man feel any differently to how I do? You have to show some interest, for God’s sake.
I think the “real rules” are actually very simple. Treat a prospective date the exact same way as you would treat a prospective friend. If you want to hang out with them, ask them to meet you. It’s up to them to say yes or no. If you find that you’re always the person asking, walk away.
My male friends have exactly the same complaint about women every time – that they don’t make any moves and this makes the man feel that they are disinterested. If you met a new friend you wouldn’t sit around waiting for them to contact you, you’d just contact them without thinking about it. Dating is just socialising, it’s the same concept, and it won’t be enjoyable for anybody if you get hung up on rules.
Ed says
Ladies, I feel the need to contribute just because i think you all have so many misconseptions about men,
I know the rules are for women, but has anyone here stopped to think about what it’s like for the man in such a situation? You can never really tell if a (rules) girl is interested so you never let yourself get emotionally invested. In the back of your mind you know she could dump you anytime for someone else. Contrary to popular belief most guys don’t like the ‘chase’ at all. Its been a long time since I’ve dated, but pursuing women never got me anywhere. When I did, once, I just came across a needy and undesirable. Not just to her, but the rest of my social circle. If a girl never initiated anything I’d assume, correctly I think, that she wasn’t interested. The male version of “she’s not into you”.
All my long term relationships, including my current marriage to my beautiful wife, were initiated by women. They were close friends who went out on a limb and said something to me. I suspect this is the case with most relationships between mature adults nowadays.. Another big issue is that most men do not want to come off as creepy, especially around women they already now, so don’t expect guys to initiate anything something that could be perceived as unwelcome and inappropriate.
hunter says
Ed,
…you got lucky…
Metafor says
nice to know…and refreshing to hear
Marika says
Why do people leave such lengthy, debate-y replies? I don’t get it. Evan, your advice is crystal clear. I read your blog when I’m um-ing and ah-ing over what to do in a situation or when I don’t want to hear/acknowledge the truth. You give it to us without any BS. Pretty hard to miss the point! Maybe not everyone wants that, but I just wanted to say thank you for your tough love. It’s just what I need.
I also listened to your TED talk over the weekend explaining the 2/2/2 rule. Awesome!
Never give up your no-nonsense approach to this subject. Love can make us blind and deaf – you are our guide dog! Thank you
hunter says
marika, you didn’t know it takes a woman two paragraphs or more to say what she wants to say, when, a man can say the same in two sentences?……
leestony7 says
I am a man, and women should ALWAYS call a guy if they are truly interested. I’m tired if women who show an initial interest, and I pursue them, and there’s no response back, ever. Personally, after 2-3 weeks, if I’ve done all the calling, and she still doesn’t show the effort to reach out to me, she’s going to get blown off, period. Guys don’t like to be ignored either.
Tina says
This is a very recent personal experience and I just wanted to share how liberating and empowering it felt when I made the first move on the guy I liked.
We met at Oktoberfest several weeks ago. To cut the long story short, from the beginning, he was very forward and kept telling me that he liked me and he chased me the entire time. I had not been clear on my interest the whole night not because I was playing games, but mainly because in my mind I was thinking that he had been drinking and might not remember me the next day. He asked me to dance, and he turned out to be such a gentleman (which I really liked about him especially since I was convinced he was drunk). I warmed up to him and felt safe/protected in his arms, and we even kissed. I wanted to get to know him better but when he was sober. He kept telling me he was the same person whether he’d been drinking or sober, and he suggested we went out on a proper date. We exchanged numbers and I was looking forward to him calling.
He never called. I kept blaming myself because he must think I wasn’t interested. I kept looking at my phone and even lost my appetite for several days. I kept making excuses for him: maybe he was shy, maybe I scared him off etc. 10 days after we met, I decided to text him asking about the lunch/dinner he promised me. No response. Another 4 days later, I had been mustering the courage to call him, when I accidentally whatsapp-called him in my nervousness. I immediately hung up and I knew he would have received my missed call. Still, no callback from him. Finally, another week later, I gave myself an ultimatum. I really wanted a chance to get to know this guy better and I wanted him to know it. If I didn’t try to call him one last time, I would regret it. So, I called him on a Sunday afternoon…. and he didn’t pick up.
I actually felt relieved afterwards as now I finally have my answer. It hurt of course and my pride was also wounded. Right now, he could be laughing with his friends at me for being desperate, he could be thinking I’m a manipulative game-playing b*tch who deserved it for trying to play hard-to-get etc, while he’s moved on to someone else. But, if he had taken the time and patience to get to know me, go on a proper date, he would know what a wonderful person I am. I don’t regret making the first move(s), because now I know how he feels about me and I can begin to move on. And even if he had responded and it turns out he was playing me, I would have gained an experience as putting ourselves out there and sometimes getting hurt is part of dating. No one can put up with an act for too long. If he is genuinely not interested, he would show in his actions sooner or later, so it doesn’t make a difference if the man or woman had made the first move.
Like some of the other people who had replied, we should follow our hearts and not the countless articles/rules that specify the Do’s and Don’ts of Dating. It does feel very liberating and empowering when women are in control of when and how to contact a guy first after meeting him.
Clare says
Tina,
Firstly, I admire your courage, and I would encourage you not to think that he, or other people might be “laughing with his friends at me for being desperate.” It takes courage to put oneself out there, and I hope that all the men on this blog who moan that women don’t know what it’s like to be rejected read this post of yours.
You lost nothing in calling him, and as I said, I admire your courage. I have been in this situation myself. That said, I’d just like to call your attention to one thing. You write: “he could be thinking I’m a manipulative game-playing b*tch who deserved it for trying to play hard-to-get etc, while he’s moved on to someone else.” In what way were you playing hard to get? He had your number, the same way you had his. It was just as easy for him to pick up the phone and call you or text you as it was for you. Therefore, this was an equal situation, and you were not in any way playing hard to get. It’s an important mindset to have, because I think women sometimes erroneously feel that they have to step up and boldly show their interest, or the guy won’t know. This is not the case. You danced with him, you kissed him, you gave him your number and said you’d go out with him. This is all the encouragement he needs.
The other thing I’d urge you to think about is why you felt the need to contact him three times. Knowing what I know now, the fact that he didn’t get in touch would have been enough for me. But even if I’d sent a text, and it had gone unanswered, I definitely would have left it there. I’ve contacted a guy before to “give him a nudge in the right direction” or just to satisfy myself, and, while I was glad that I had my answer, this almost never works. However, if it makes you feel better and lessens your anxiety, I’m all for it. I would caution against contacting a second or third time, though, because with each attempt, we tend to feel a little worse.
I’d encourage you not to take any of this personally. My experience has been that men whom one drunkenly kisses at a pub/club are rarely looking for something serious. But I wanted to caution you against regarding it as liberating or empowering to contact a guy first. A masculine man with true relationship potential will not need you to do this. He will take care of business himself. 🙂
hunter says
Clare, I like your quote, “He will take care of business himself”…
Tina says
Thank you Clare – I really appreciate your support and for raising some very good points.
I gave a shorter version of the story which left out some points. The whole night, I wasn’t clear to him that I was interested. When he asked me if I even liked him abit, I said I wasn’t sure. Even when he suggested going on a date, I said maybe. (I was convinced he was half-drunk and there was no point trying to make proper converstion until we went out on a real date when he was sober). At the end of the evening, he said he didn’t think I wanted to go out with him but he asked for my number anyway and called me immediately so I had his number and to make sure I didn’t give a fake number. I found out from my girl friend afterwards (who went with me to Oktoberfest) that he had told her he liked me but was shy on what to say to me.
I do think that I could have given him mixed signals that evening (which was not deliberate but since alcohol was involved, I wasn’t ready to pour my heart out if he didn’t remember me the next day) and he might be thinking now that I’m playing games. This was why I felt I had to contact him 3 times to make extra sure he knew for certain that I like him, and to fully convince myself that I’ve done everything I could to give us a chance.
I agree with you that a masculine man will make the first move, but I also think that doesn’t stop a woman from making the first move. Someone once said to me that we should treat dating like a job application. A good job doesn’t always come our way. If we really wanted a job and think it’s perfect for us, would we not apply to it? If after the interview, we were interested, would we not make the first move to follow up? Finally, would we turn down the role just because we contacted HR first rather than the other way round?
I think human beings are innately unable to lie to ourselves in the long-run and will eventually show our true colours for our own sanity. Once in a relationship, if either party isn’t interested, it will show eventually. So what if he made the first move? If a few weeks/months/years down the road, he is no longer interested, he will still walk away. I believe the man will still behave in the same way even if the woman were to make the first move.
hunter says
tina, generally speaking, men are not attracted to women that make the first move…
Clare says
Tina,
Funnily enough, I actually agree with you. I think the relationship will not sustain itself if the interest isn’t there from both parties, and in that sense, you’re right that it doesn’t matter who makes the first move. If a guy truly does like you, he’s certainly not going to turn you down just because you called him. And if he does call first, issues could still arise later on that would cause one of you to walk away later on. Absolutely agree with you on these points.
My only point was that with a masculine man who likes you, it is not necessary to make the first move. Just as it isn’t necessary to phone a company back after an interview and ask if you’ve got the job. If they want you, they will phone you. When I was in management, a part of me actually resented it a little when an interviewee called me and asked if they’d been successful. I appreciated that they had the right to know where they stood, but the truth is it smacked to me of a lack of confidence in their worth. I’d have let them know one way or the other if they’d been successful or not, and I usually valued confident candidates a bit more. I do actually believe that the same goes for guys. I wouldn’t go as far as Hunter and say that guys are not attracted to women who make the first move, but I do think there is a certain sexy confidence in waiting for someone to come to you because you know you are worth it and they would be missing out if they didn’t. Guys can sense that. Being the honey that attracts the bees.
So, it’s not that you can’t phone or text a guy first – you absolutely can, and in many cases it’s harmless or even desirable. But I do believe that when it comes to the first few dates, guys should be the ones doing the pursuing. Not that it will change the long-term outcome of your relationship, but it’s simply that men prefer it and it works better. As I said in my other post, if it’s truly eating you up not to text or call, then I’d say go for it, but I would not pursue the whole making the first move under normal circumstances. (Oh, and just from my point of view, I don’t think you were playing that hard to get at the Oktoberfest, though it might have felt that way to you. It’s normal to feel a bit cautious/guarded/shy of a stranger and not to know whether you like someone you barely know. Men know they have to do a bit of pursuing/winning over in the beginning.
Also, from my point of view, the fact that he said he liked you on the night means that the reason he didn’t call probably didn’t have to do with him not liking you. It could have been any number of reasons from shyness or fear to not being ready to date, to being extremely busy or just not in a great place in some other way.)
Tina says
Thank you very much Hunter and Clare for sharing your thoughts and advice.
I also agree with Clare that the woman could make the first call/text, but should let the man initiate the date.
It’s so true that men are from Mars and women are from Venus. 🙂