Why Women Should Make Men Wait For Sex — Part II

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I’ve only done this twice before: once, in a post defending Lori Gottlieb’s “Marry Him,” and a second time, in a post explaining my opposition to Rori Raye’s “Circular Dating.” These were the only two times that I remember being equally frustrated at how something was being misconstrued that I needed to take an hour and go through a bullet point by bullet point dissection of my original thesis.

Now I know that writing this is not going to change a thing. People who were irked by the concept that women should make men invest more before having sex are still probably going to be irked — but at least I’ll know that I gave it my best shot to illustrate my arguments effectively. Okay, ready? Here we go.

Believe it or not, most men do not lie in order to get sex.

First of all, here was the premise of my original post:

“You want to find out if a man is serious about you? Wait to have sex with him. If you don’t — because you’re a liberated woman who can have sex whenever you damn well please — don’t be too surprised if a decent percentage of those men never call again. Again, I’m not remotely judgmental of those who have sex without commitment; I will only point out as a dating coach that it tends to lead to sub-optimal results from men because they didn’t have to do anything special to get into bed with you.”

I can’t see anything about which one can argue. As always, I was wrong. 🙂

Below are some of the comments I received (in italics), along with my responses.

“What about having sex for the sheer joy of it without any agenda and expectation?”

What about it? If you can have sex for the sheer joy of it without any agenda and expectation, then my advice to hold out for a commitment should be completely irrelevant. How irrelevant? As irrelevant as me wondering how often I should get a mammogram. Seriously. If advice doesn’t apply to you, then you can absolutely ignore it. What you can’t do is argue with advice that is not intended for you.

This is the exact same issue I had with women who tried to pillory Lori Gottlieb’s “Marry Him,” by saying that they settled in their first marriage so Ms. Gottlieb’s advice is completely “wrong.” No it’s not. If you’re a woman who wants to have her own biological children, you have more options when you’re in your early 30’s than you do in your early 40’s. Therefore, it’s wise to take your love life seriously at a younger age, and make smart compromises when you have the most attention from the largest pool of high quality men. If you don’t want to get married, if you don’t want to have kids, and if you would rather be alone than make any compromises, Ms. Gottlieb’s advice would not apply to you. No need to get upset.

“Sex doesn’t keep any man who doesn’t want to be kept. A woman can wait 6 months 6 days or 6 hours. If he isn’t marriage-minded, it makes little difference.”

Mostly correct. Alas, it wildly misinterprets what I was suggesting. Believe it or not, most men do not lie in order to get sex. As we’ve already established, they don’t have to. Sex is so readily available from women that there’s no incentive for a guy to have to say something untrue like, “I love you” or “I want to be your boyfriend” in order to get laid. And if that’s the case, then guess what? Holding out for commitment will, in fact, scare the guy away who only wants to get laid.

It’s not about a number of dates or months: it’s about assessing his intention: does this guy really like you or does he just want to have sex with you?

Naturally, calling a guy a boyfriend doesn’t guarantee a lasting marriage — not by any stretch of the imagination. But it does do one thing: it ensures that the guy you just slept with is not seeing anybody else and is seriously open to exploring a future. (Unless, of course, he’s a psycho who would lie to your face to get laid — and I’m suggesting most normal men would rather find another woman than to do that.)  

“There is a shaming of women for wanting to have sex.”

From whom? Not from me. As I said in my original post, “I’m not remotely judgmental of those who have sex without commitment.” Hell, I’ve had a lot of sex without commitment. But guess what? Most of it was completely selfish. I was attracted to them on date 1, 2, or 3. I had no intention of stepping up as a boyfriend. And if she let me know that she didn’t sleep with guys outside of a commitment, I’d have been out the door in a heartbeat. Which is the entire point of my suggestion — it weeds out the guys who aren’t serious about you really fast.

  “This is why so many feel “used” because they waited a month, or two, or three and finally “gave in” and POOF he’s gone anyways.”

I didn’t say that you should wait a month or two or three before “giving in”. Waiting for some arbitrary time period has never been the point. Because, you’re right: a guy can “wait you out” for 7 arbitrary dates, fuck you, and then bail. But since most men do not want the hassle or the emotion of calling you a girlfriend and THEN bailing, by refusing sex without commitment, you weed those guys out. Understand, if a guy is really into you after 3 dates, you can both agree to give a relationship a shot and have sex. I’ve done that a number of times — where I was so whipped that I dove into an exclusive sexual relationship right away. So it’s not about a number of dates or months: it’s about assessing his intention: does this guy really like you enough to commit or does he just want to have sex with you?

“We woman are damned if we do and damned if we don’t. Have sex too soon and you’re considered too easy. Wait too long and the guy will get it somewhere else.”  

Nope. No one is calling you easy for having sex. No one is suggesting that you’re losing out on a prize of a man if he values getting laid in three dates over how much he values you. You think you’re damned either way. I think you have all the power in the world: to be sexual, to assess your options, to understand his point of view, to make him feel good, and to STILL insist that your man be interested in pursuing a relationship before you have sex.

“EMK’s advice seems unrealistic for anyone not wearing a promise ring.”

Actually, it’s quite realistic. If you think she’s playing games to “catch” you, then nothing I can do will convince you. But if you had a great connection with a confident woman who told you that she doesn’t like the idea of you going home to write to other women online after you have sex, you would insist to her that you DO have the right to do that? Let me know how that conversation goes.

“Plus as a woman who likes sex, what the hell am I going to tell this guy if I don’t like the sex?”

You break up with him. All you people who are focused on “test driving” the car, I get it. Sex is important. But that’s the thing about dating: you have TWO PLUS YEARS to figure out if you want to get married. Sexual compatibility is one of many factors you’ll have to consider in determining your future. But choosing a boyfriend is a considerably lower bar to jump than choosing a husband.

You “sex first” people act as if you have to have sex before commitment or else. Or else what? Or else you’d discover after a month that you have different libidos, or that he isn’t great at cunnilingus? You think you have to discover this BEFORE you have a commitment…but isn’t the whole point of dating to continue to discover things to assess whether you can spend your life with a person? Again, I’m not saying sex isn’t important. I’m saying that you can engage in lots of serious foreplay before having sex, give an exclusive relationship a shot, and if it doesn’t work for ANY reason, you have the right to break up, one months, two months, three months down the line. In that regard, sex is no different than learning that he’s got anger issues or is a bad communicator. You work with what you’ve got and if you can’t make it work, you break up. You don’t HAVE to have sex first; you WANT to have sex first. Which is fine — as long as the woman is up for the insecurity of not knowing where your relationship is headed. Many, as you know, are not.  

“If our culture starts once again demanding and creating chaste women, you’re going to get chaste women through and through.”

Chaste means abstaining from extramarital or all intercourse. I’m saying that women should wait until he’s a boyfriend, even if that means date 3.

“Best thing is to remove expectations so you will never get hurt.”  

As a dating coach, I spend a lot of time managing women’s expectations and trying to ensure they’re realistic. If you expect to fall in love in 30 days on Match, you’ll be disappointed. If you expect that only “appropriate” men will write, you’ll be disappointed. If you think that just because you had a great date that you’re in a relationship, you’ll be disappointed. What I’m talking about here is completely different. You can “remove expectations” and not be too surprised when the guy who fucked you is on OkCupid the next day. I guess that’s healthy. But why put yourself through that? Why not just save intercourse for men who verbally told you that they want to be exclusive with you?

Why remove all expectations from men and expect nothing from them? Remember, that’s the biggest problem — you’ve seen it all over this blog: “Men only text! Men just want to hook up! Men don’t want to pay! Men don’t plan in advance! Men are players who don’t want to commit!” And so the answer to that is to sleep with them, expect nothing, communicate by text, and take your chances that you both decide a relationship is viable? I don’t like those odds.

If you’re an intern who can’t call regularly, has given no indication that you’re looking for commitment, and refuse to wait a couple of extra weeks before having sex, my clients don’t want you working at their company.

Now to avoid being misinterpreted: if you WANT to text, fuck, and not have any expectations from the guy, God Bless You. This advice has nothing to do with you and you should have absolutely no criticism of it. This advice is ONLY for women who are SICK of sleeping with men and feeling like crap afterward because they don’t know where they stand. I will repeat this two or three more times.

“What I want to challenge you on is this notion that women ought to be bartering sex for commitment.”

I would like to challenge that notion, too. Because my clients who hold out for commitment are not bartering sex for commitment.

My clients are taking enough time to see two things: 1) whether HE is potential boyfriend material — kind, consistent, communicative, relationship-oriented and 2) whether SHE likes HIM enough to make him her boyfriend. Because as you know, it’s easy to have sex with someone out of attraction. But attraction is not a good predictor of compatibility. So if my clients take a little extra time to get past the initial lust phase and start to see a man clearly, they can usually tell if he is making enough effort to be a boyfriend AND if she likes HIM enough to commit to him.

This is coming from a place of POWER, not weakness. In my world, women are the CEO’s and the men are the interns applying for the job. And if you’re an intern who can’t call regularly, has given no indication that you’re looking for commitment, and refuses to wait a couple of extra weeks before having sex, my clients don’t want you working at their company. The petulant interns who think that they deserve to have sex with women without commitment because it’s been three dates are not going to get the job. They will feel righteous, as if the woman is being a prude or playing a game. She is not. She is putting herself first because she has determined that sleeping with a man and waiting by the phone for him to call sucks and she doesn’t want to have to go through it again. I believe that’s her right. Just as it’s his right to bail. In my book, it’s more his loss than hers.

These aren’t tactics to “catch” a man. These are tactics to repel men who don’t want to commit.

“What keeps guys around is not sex or the prospect of sex (although it sure doesn’t hurt). It’s a strong confident in herself woman who takes pride in herself and doesn’t rely on sneaky tactics to try to catch or keep a man.”

100% agree. A confident woman will have absolutely no compunction about telling some overzealous guy that she barely knows to keep his dick in his pants. It takes confidence to be willing to let a cute guy walk away because he is not getting his sexual needs met on his timetable. These aren’t tactics to “catch” a man. These are tactics to repel men who don’t want to commit and keep women from having their hearts broken by pump-and-dump guys.

Another aside for those who have forgotten: if you are fine having NSA sex with men who are not committed to you, that’s your business. Whatever makes you happy. I’m not judging you, shaming you, or telling you that you’re wrong. I’m telling women who hate the feeling of being in limbo with a man how to avoid being in limbo ever again.

“Being ready to share intimacy with a man you like and have a connection with is by no means being reckless. It’s being real and embracing your feminine wholeness.”  

If you are comfortable sleeping with men from your place of “feminine wholeness” without any expectations, that’s cool. Many women are not. This advice is for them.

“I had sex with my man on the first date and shortly after he asked me for a relationship and now I am claimed as his girlfriend.”  

Yep. A lot of relationships start that way. Most of mine included. I’m not questioning the morality of this. I’m questioning the effectiveness of it. When two strangers hop into bed for a night of passion, the dynamic changes, whether you like it or not.

Sometimes, he doesn’t even like you as a person.
Sometimes, he likes your body, but not your personality.
Sometimes, he’s really lonely and really horny.
Sometimes, he’s seeing someone else at the same time.
Sometimes, he’s on the rebound.
Sometimes, he’s emotionally unavailable.
Sometimes, he’s a selfish prick.

So when one poster defends her “fuck first, ask questions later” philosophy by saying, “I got to know him after sex. I got to know all my men after sex,” what she’s really saying is that she’s willing to take a chance on a man who may not like her as a person, a man who is lonely, a man who is seeing other women, a man who is emotionally unavailable, or a man who is a selfish prick. Why? Because she has no expectations. And because she has no expectations and is perfectly willing to hop into bed with a guy, you should, too.

I’m not questioning the morality of this. I’m questioning the effectiveness of it.

Read that list again. Have you ever slept with a man like that? You don’t think that if you went out with him 7 times over the course of 4 weeks, you could maybe have figured some of that stuff out BEFORE sleeping with him?

Another reminder: if you have no issues sleeping with men who are jerks, this advice isn’t for you. But my intimation is that you’re going to know a guy MUCH better — particularly his long-term intentions and how you get along with him platonically — after a month than after a night. So what’s the harm in this again?

“Maybe we just like sex too and we need to get laid as much as men.”

Cool by me. But that wasn’t the point of the video or my blog post. It’s to protect women who don’t have that same outlook from getting hurt.

“Why would a man want a relationship with all that it involves when he can go have sex and leave and do whatever he wants?”

Because men look for sex and find love. In the act of pursuing sex, he gets to know you better and determines that he really loves being around you. The more he loves being around you, the more he’ll want to be around you over all others. And when he values you over all others, he’ll spend his whole life with you because what he gains from the relationship is greater than what he gives up by being monogamous.

“Sex is easy… a relationship is a journey.   If these interactions are not at least playful and easy from the start, they rarely ever become.”

Agreed. No one wants to have to negotiate for sex. Which is why it’s in really bad form to ask someone on the first date what his long-term intentions are. And why it’s in really bad form to ask someone if he’s seeing someone else. And why it’s in bad form to ask how many partners someone has had. And why I would never suggest that a woman come out and say to a man over appetizers: “By the way, I will not be sleeping with you tonight.” Yes, that would take all the fun right out of it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman saying, on the fifth date when he’s reaching for the condom drawer, “Hey, I’m really attracted to you and would love to sleep with you, however I don’t like having sex with guys who are actively looking for other women on Match.com. You can understand, right?” And he’ll say, “Yeah, I get it.” And then she’ll say, “So, when we both figure out if this is a relationship worth exploring, you’re in for the night of your life. In the meantime, I can think of some other fun things to do…” And then they can proceed to explore each others’ bodies to the limits of whatever boundaries she decides to set.

As an aside, it’s interesting how some “no means no” women get really upset when I tell women that they’re actually allowed to say “no”. As if I’m restricting your choice or slut-shaming you for saying yes. I’m not. I’m only saying one thing: sleeping with a man without commitment increases your chances of getting heartbroken by a selfish, emotionally unavailable, commitmentphobic guy. If you are willing to take that risk because you love sex so much, more power to you.

I’m glad that I’ve outlined a paradigm that so many women have used to great effect. A woman can say no to intercourse and still be cool, fun, playful, sexual, confident and attractive to men. All it means is that she has her own very reasonable boundaries about when she has sex. If he can’t respect that, he should move along.

Holding out for sex is not about holding out until marriage, tricking him into a relationship or trying to keep him around. On the contrary, it’s about taking enough time to assess whether your guy is truly boyfriend-worthy rather than sex-worthy.

And, as I may have mentioned: if you don’t care if he’s boyfriend-worthy and you just want to have sex, fuck away as you see fit. No one’s judging you.

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Comments:

  1. 21
    SparklingEmerald

    Akay @20 – The purpose of “waiting” for women (and these days that usually means any point after date 1) is not to try to become attracted to a man they are NOT attracted to, but to evaluate if the man really wants HER of if he just wants SEX. To try and figure out if the guy has made his 2 second judgement that she is not “girlfriend worthy”, but will date her just to hump her and dump her. In other words, the point of waiting is to weed out guys LIKE YOU. Not 100% foolproof, but it probably does save some heartache down the road.

  2. 22
    Danaris

    I think the headline for the original post should have been Why Women Should Make Themselves Wait for Sex if they want long term relationships. The reason to wait isn’t just so the man can qualify as woman as a girlfriend, it’s also so that the woman can qualify a man as a boyfriend. In my mind if the interaction between a man and a woman is a profile on a dating site, a couple of emails, and a couple of telephone charts, neither the woman nor the man really know each other by date 1, 2, or 3. Instead of being annoyed that men need time to determine if a woman is right for a long term relationship, women should do the same — take time to learn about the man’s character and what makes him tick before deciding if HE is long term relationship material. So, waiting isn’t just to keep a woman from getting hurt or used. At least that’s how I see it.

    1. 22.1
      henriette

      Agreed!  It’s a win/win situation.

  3. 23
    Akay

    @SparklingEmerald

    Unfortunately you are wrong. The only men you will weed out with this strategy are amateurs. Trust me we, men, have evolved. We know that you are playing the number game. I used the schedule several dates per day to fulfill my quota. Every date we collect more data about you and we will appeal to you better in the next date. More dates just mean you are walking into a trap.I have better strategies for you. If you are definitely not into fulfilling your sexual needs use your gut on the first date. Abort immediately if you cannot say “this guy is very impressive”. Many women try the next dates out of desperation. As I said pros will tune their approach with new data and your weaknesses. Second hint is that we try to keep the dates short as we know you are playing the number game. Dinner, movie, a night walk is not good for us. I try to have a short dinner with one woman, then a movie with the other in the same night. Unfortunately ideas presented in this site are a few generations old. It is a totally different game now.

    1. 23.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      You’re basically weeding yourself out by being a impatient, cheap and selfish. Sounds like my strategy is working just fine.

  4. 24
    SparklingEmerald

    Akay @ 23 – I don’t know why you said “If you are definitely not into fulfilling your sexual needs use your gut on the first date.”. My sexual needs are multi-dimensional and can be satisfied when there is a heart & mind connection. You make it sound like every man on the planet is a selfish bastard preying on women’s emotions & weaknesses to trick them into thinking there is more than just sex. I came to Evan’s blog looking for help getting back into dating and relationships after nearly 25 years of being married. Reading blog entries from guys like you, make me think I should just forget it, because why would I want to associate with such selfish conniving jerks ? Evan seems like the exception rather than rule, and he is taken. His advice seems to be geared to finding the relationship oriented guy, but I am beginning to think it is like trying to find a four leaf clover.

    I’ve weeded out the booty callers, perhaps they are just “amateurs”, but I think my gut serves me pretty well. Short infrequent dates, such as the strategy you describe above, is one of the main reasons I say “next”.

    I did say my method wasn’t 100% foolproof, but luckily, I haven’t run into any ‘pros” yet.

  5. 25
    Dora

    It beats me – How you ,some, women could be so narrow minded and honestly -stupid..? Why hitting on Evan time and time again over something he NEVER said or meant…
    Evan is Absolutely RIGHT in what he is saying – is simple – is black or white. And he is the White one,the light,the help,the confidence,the future and all.
    Thank you Evan!!! Thank you for being there and thank you for all you do and say,because is the RIGHT thing.As to the ones who slam on you about things never meant or said – e,well -ignore them,do not get offense, you do not need to defend yourself,because you are absolutely right and because you can never make everyone happy.!!!
    Is so irritating to me to read all that Di-sec-ting of every coma Evan use and try to find the bad,black meaning that is not there..uuhhhhh..If you do not like it – do not read it,do not do it- simple. Why wasting everyones elses time to read your crap,women…??!!!
      

  6. 26
    AllHeart

    While I wish things were different, it truly is best if a woman waits to have sex.

    There are other options around this. Simply find men you do not want to consider for a serious relationship, and vice versa (everyone should be on the same page), and sleep with them. Then date the men you want to have relationships with, and wait to have sex with them. It’s not *fair* that men easily use women for sex and at the same time dismiss them for sex as well, but you can find ways around it.

    Unfortunately, we still live in a world where men don’t have much honor when it comes to how they treat women in regards to sex. Our world doesn’t place any expectations on men to control themselves sexually. It’s basically a free-for-all of male fantasy and desire that even today, women must conform to in some ways. Naturally, this makes things easy for men. They don’t have to take responsibility for themselves when they can make women be the ones to take the responsibility. Personally, for me, nothing is more attractive then men that are both discriminating in heart and body when it comes to the female gender.

    On top of all that, men have allowed sex to be a barometer of their worth. Which is another big reason, and one that needs to be explored, about why men will use women sexually to feed their egos. Although, it’s really a false sense of self.

    So while I agree with Evan’s advice here, and think this is one of the best posts I’ve seen, I’m not going to turn a blind eye to what should be changed between men an women. And I will advise women to use their own tools around such things such as simply finding men to sleep with while they date the men they really want to be with. Until men are ready to be more fair about the whole thing.

    Men need to take more pride and responsibility with their own bodies. They need to be more discriminating about who they let sexually into their lives. I’m not looking to be with a man who I have to be his gatekeeper. But until that day, don’t sleep with the men who you want to be in a committed relationship with.

  7. 27
    Rocks

    Hi Evan, to your point below:
    [The fact that there are women who think that they HAVE to put out because OTHER women put out is as much of a problem as “slut shaming”. I’m giving those women who DON’T want to put out a script on how to message it, in a confident and effective fashion. That is MY point — even if it’s not the original video’s point.]

    In my opinion t’s not an internal expectation that a woman SHOULD put out because other women (her competitors) are putting out; instead, in my *extensive* field experience, I’ve found if you DON’T put out guys just move on to those who WILL put out. In Neverneverland, then the woman would just wait until a guy comes along who will respect her boundaries and the sexual relationship would progress when both parties are ready, but as the saying goes about the needle in the haystack…

    1. 27.1
      Evan Marc Katz

      Nope. It ain’t Neverland. If a guy can’t respect your decision to make him hold out for a few weeks until you know each other better, he’s not your guy. Plain and simple. The ones who move on are – by definition – not that into you or not husband material. So there’s no point in worrying about them. Almost all of my clients follow my directive to screen out guys who want sex without commitment and almost all of them find guys who are willing to wait for this reasonable amount of time. Why would they wait? Because they LIKE you and it’s a small price to pay for what they get in return.

      1. 27.1.1
        Lynn (the other one!)

        Hi Evan,  
        I’ve been ‘sexclusive’ using your advice from the blog, WHD, and FTOO. Getting more skilled at it, I think. Certainly much more comfortable about being clear about the boundary and not feeling offended when men push for sex. Thank you for that.  
        Last night was yet another opportunity, first one in awhile, and mostly now I’m curious and amused by the responses and really ducking around the core issue. “I want to invest in an LTR with you so once we have sex I’ll delete my profile.” and “If we don’t have sex then you won’t see me again, no use having a relationship” and “What is this silliness? What did you go on a dating site for anyway? What am I supposed to do with this? (pointing to his obvious erection)”.   On second date, 2 days after meeting and a great first date where he was a total gentleman.   
        Yeah, that’s the way to my heart! It’s not even worth feeling shocked or perturbed by.
        I feel like writing a blog post called “Your erection is not my responsibility”. Next!

        1. Lynn (the other one!)

          p.s. And to save me any more trouble, this morning he sent me a pissy email about how he’d been unable to sleep all night and he wouldn’t be seeing me again. No kidding.
          Evan, I’ve learned to examine my own behavior and see what I can learn from it and if there are any patterns. What I’m starting to notice is that some men seem to mistake warm and welcoming (basically following your advice to be a great date) for an ‘now open for sex’ sign hung on me. I feel kinda sad about that. Are most women so cold and unresponsive that I really stand out so much? I want to say, don’t take my warmth and welcome too personally, I’m this way with everyone.  
            

  8. 28
    AllHeart

    Hi Rocks –  I’ve had guys leave me because I didn’t put out the second *they* wanted it. And I’ve had guys   date me, enjoy me, get to know me, as we built emotional intimacy before we slept together.  
    Guess which group appreciates women more? Duh! The group of men that knows that building a relationship with a woman is more then sex. The group of men that know and value a woman beyond sex. Men that truly know how to value women show it in their actions.
    Guess which guys I’m grateful for? Both. First group of guys showed me who they were. So did the second. Guess who I had more respect for? You’re a smart guy, I’m sure you can figure it out.
    If you are ditching a lady because other women out there will give you sex, you can bet your cute little silverdollar bottom that they will be happy to see you go. Now you might be thinking, “Her lose, I’m going to go bang a woman that will let me.” But here is the secret…she doesn’t think it’s her lose at all. She’s happy to see you go. You’re not a “catch” to her. You’re a user.  
    In dating, it takes a long time sometimes before a man is willing to be commited to just you. A man wants to get to know you before he makes that kind of commitment. Guess what? Alot of women want to wait before we make a sexual commitment.  
    You know what’s so screwy about dating now-a-days? Ultimately most people date to find “that special someone”. Yet they jump into bed before they develop the foundation of the relationship. You know what happens when you got no foundation? Your house sinks.  

  9. 29
    Rocks

    Hi Evan,
    Thank you for your reply.   I don’t disagree with any of your points, however, what I’m saying is I’ve tried that strategy — it is the strategy I believe in and feel most comfortable with — however the net result was going for THREE.WHOLE.YEARS. without penetration. I attracted many men, was sexual and communicated my boundaries and the rationale for those boundaries. The answers I invariably got were “smell ya later” or “why does it have to be so defined, can’t we just do it and see what happens from there” or “I’d love to be your fuck buddy”. Um, No.
    In that time I saw many friends couple off, with men who waited or didn’t wait for them (ie they had sex right away). Soooo?
    So. What I’ve decided is to do is be a bad-ass at life motherfucker and come what may, or may not, at least I’ve swung for the fences. Unfortunately that also means a lot of no fucking around ;-(
    @AllHeart: I’m a female. Also agree with all of your points.

  10. 30
    Marie

    @Rocks – just because you’ve had extensive field experience doesn’t mean you’re a good dater.   Quantity does not equal quality in the relationship world.   If you’re going through a lot of men and are still not finding the supposed needle in a haystack you should re-evaluate your approach.   You may very well be attracting the same wrong kind of guys over and over again because clearly it’s pretty common for quality men to wait.   I’ve seen that over and over again.   The fact that you have not experienced this just tells me that something in your approach is not sending out the right signals to attract quality men who respect women’s boundaries.   It’s you, not them.

  11. 31
    Rocks

    *I forgot “you’re not Jewish” and “you’re too old to have kids”. I was 33. He was 34.  
    e-Cyrano as in  de bergerac? My name is Roxanne, haha.

  12. 32
    Rocks

    @Marie,
    Sure, I’ve considered that and own that my confidence level in the distant past was not so great. Like I said, lots of different reasons can be pinpointed, including but not limited to spending all of my 20’s in school.   But what I have seen is women who tend to be pretty bitchy to guys are the ones who end up keeping their guys, paradoxically. I don’t like to be bitchy, I like to be happy.
    I really only know how to be who I am. I have friends & family who love me dearly, I make connections with people, I take care of myself, I am adventurous and have passionate interests. So if that’s not attractive then I don’t know the answer. Anyway that’s my 2c & the best I can do is just to keep hope alive I guess. Thanks for the input!

  13. 33
    Sabine

    I’ve read parts one and two and I agree that you should wait for committment for sex. I don’t see how you can have REAL passion and intimacy without it. All the waiting to see if he calls…ruins any eperience if your not committed. When you are committed, you can have the great sex with passion and intimacy not worrying if he’ll call b/c he already estabilished his feelings and he already calls. Don’t sell yourself short, it’s not worth the heartache.
      
      
      
      
      
      
      

  14. 34
    Goldberry

    And hopefully you will consider, Evan, that waiting until marriage is also reasonable.   Interesting how you’ve set an arbitrary boundary (“commitment”) that is equally determined by the cultural lowest common denominator.   (Which by the way has led to people being stuck in committed relationships and/or living together for years while waiting for marriage to someday happen.)   If a woman believes it’s not moral to have sex outside of marriage, her “permanent commitment” boundary is just as reasonable as the “commitment” rule.

      1. 34.1.1
        Goldberry

        But it can’t be inherently unreasonable since 95% of people before the sexual revolution thought it was just fine…   In other words, majority opinion isn’t the arbiter of reasonableness.

        1. Jenn

          This shouldn’t come as any surprise, but I agree 100% with Goldberry. Evan, you seem to have contradicted yourself a bit here. On the one hand, you say not to get frustrated when 95% of the guys who write to us on dating sites aren’t “the right ones”. So it would follow that we waiters-till-marriage should not care that 95% of people don’t share our commitment to our faith, because they are not the right ones for us if that is a deal-breaker for them. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter to me if 95% of guys I meet won’t wait because I’m only looking for one. The right guy will not mind waiting that much. If he can see himself spending the rest of his life with me, what harm will a year or two of waiting do him when we’ll have the rest of our lives to have sex?  

        2. Evan Marc Katz

          No contradiction. The difference is that I tell my clients to hold out for 5% of men. You’re suggesting that you hold out for 5% of 5%. (.0025) Your husband isn’t just going to be nice, smart, funny, warm, successful, relationship oriented, cute, and communicative but ALSO willing to wait for marriage before having sex. You’ve got a numbers problem, my friend.

        3. Buck25

          @ Goldberry,

          “…since 95% of people before the sexual revolution thought it was just fine..”

          Uh-huh. So “majority opinion” then is just fine with you as a test of   “inherent reasonableness” (because it accords with what you want?), but “majority opinion” now  is not (because you don’t like it?)?. I see. Intellectually dishonest. Fail.

          “Majority opinion then” was the result of a less educated population being socialized into compliance with standards primarily based in repression, conformity, and willful ignorance of human psychology and sexuality, combined, of course, with blind allegiance to dogma. I can’t say I find that a particularly good recommendation   for the supposed “reasonableness” of same. At least majority opinion currently, (since those thoroughly discredited ideas and institutions lost influence they never merited in the first place), is based on knowledge and   verifiable empirical facts, not supposition, unsupported opinion, emotional appeal, or anyone’s wishful thinking. By the by, “appeal to authority”, whatever else it is, is NOT rational argumentation.

          Adhere to institutional religiosity if it comforts you. Just be aware of its long and consistent track record of repression, hypocrisy, acquisition and maintaining of institutional power by whatever means, to include lying, obfuscation, deliberate fraud, murder, torture, war and conquest (all excused as being for the good of the souls of its victims, of course), willfully and systematically shaming and degrading its   own adherents (the better to keep them obedient, controlled, emotionally weak and dependent) and while you’re at it, don’t forget misogyny (quite a few centuries worth; witch hunting, anyone?), and turning a blind eye to pedophile clerics). This is a human rights record worthy of the worst secular regimes ever created by man, and if my words are a scathing indictment, they are more than merited; if there could be a greater, uglier abuse of the perfectly good gift of human spirituality, I cannot imagine what it might be. If that’s harsh, that’s how it looks from the outside. Believe what you wish, but don’t be so surprised and indignant when the rest of us don’t see it your way.

      2. 34.1.2
        Goldberry

        This debate lingered in my mind overnight, and when I woke up I realized why it upset me so much.   Evan, when someone buys into the message/standard that it’s not reasonable for men to wait more than a few months for sex, they also buy into the corresponding message to women, which is:   “You think you’re in control of your sexuality?   Hah!   No one will wait until it’s really comfortable for you because you have a permanent commitment.   No one cares how many sexual partners you have to have before finding ‘the One’.   Basically your body isn’t worth that much, so why worry about giving it away to get some progress in a relationship?   Sex doesn’t really matter — except when a guy really has to have it.   So just do it.   Everyone else is.   If you don’t use your body as a bargaining chip no one will want a real relationship with you because you’re not worth their time otherwise.”   This is the antithesis of empowerment.   This is how the quest for “sexual freedom” eventually led to servitude.
        Thanks for your comment, Jenn.

        1. starthrower68

          I do not want to come off as condemning toward people who choose not to wait, or are not people of faith; but those who do stand on those values should not be surprised or caught off guard when we are rejected for those values.   We are a “peculiar people”.   So when the culture at large calls us odd for living the way we do, they are not wrong.   

  15. 35
    tamara

    I’m glad I stumbled on your blog. What you say is So true, I figured that out years ago. I’ve actually only slept with one of the many many guys I dated over the past 5 years, and every single one of the relationships I had over that time period was ended by Me. Last year, both guys I dated proposed to me within  4 months (cross my heart, it’s true). Men treat you like a princess when you don’t sleep with them. Ok some feminists will tell me I’m losing out on the pleasure of sex which I have as much right as men to enjoy, but to each her own, I prefer being showered with love and affection as opposed to having sex. When I finally accept a proposal one day when I have Mr Right, I can have all the sex I want to after all. 🙂
    There are  some women who think the guy won’t wait around, well they’re wrong, I can attest to that. Of course u still have to be the best you can be, like working on your career, keep your appearance attractive, stay up to date with current affairs so that you sound intelligent etc. And if you work on all that, And don’t jump into bed with him, men will see you as their dream girl and someone worth pursuing. It seems so commonsensical I can’t believe so many women don’t believe it.
    I’ve subscribed, can’t wait to read more great articles 🙂

  16. 36
    Paula

    I have to comment that its really hard to strike the balance by letting things run a relaxed course and not pressuring the man into vowing commitment before sleeping together. I thought I’d done it all by the book ~ your book!! Six dates. Foreplay on four. all going really well. made it clear I didn’t do casual sex. seventh date slept together. one text. then nothing. ok its only been a few days but seems it was casual after all. for him. I feel duped. there’s nothing to stop a guy from saying he’ll commit and then baling after anyway. how is a girl to know? this is the third dating experience I’ve had since leaving a 21 year marriage. all three rubbish. I’m not sure men are worth all this deception!!!

    1. 36.1
      SparklingEmerald

      [email protected] – I just can’t get on board with literally teasing a commitment from a guy while his hand is roaming somewhere south of my navel.   I am very much into male led relationships, and that includes the male initiating any and all talks about our level of commitment.   To bring it up when he’s got a boner and is reaching for a condom, doesn’t seem male led to me,   and I wouldn’t trust his answer anyway.   If I told a man, in the heat of passion as he was attempting to slide into the home plate, “I can’t have sex with a man who doesn’t even know my middle name and has never bought be a gift” he would most likely google the info on me, run to the dollar store, and come back with a gift bag addressed to “Sparkling GREEN Emerald” and then say, “NOW can we have sex”.   If I wait until he’s 3/4 of the way to sex and then bring up the “sexlusivity” talk, I won’t trust his answer anyway.
      I have been involved with men who brought up our commitment level (as in wanting one) when we were at the heavy kissing, but nothing more, phase.     With my second ex-husband, I don’t think he specifically brought up being exclusive, but he was introducing me as his girlfriend, and he had built me a hope chest and fixed the brakes on my car, so maybe it was a tad presumptious, but at that point I was assuming exclusivity.

      1. 36.1.1
        Lynn (the other one!)

        SparklingEmerald you’ve nailed a couple of my experiences. Figuring out optimal timing to lay out (ha ha) the   sexclusive boundary right now is trial and error for me.   Certainly I’m more comfortable with (and glad for) the boundary. Timing has been awk-WARD a couple of times 🙂
        But the part I need to stress more is the “figuring out what we BOTH want”. It’s not solely his decision. Recently I went out with someone I thought initially showed promise but on Date 2 when he referred to me as his girlfriend I was startled and uneasy. I wasn’t at all sure I wanted him as a boyfriend and in fact had a date with another guy lined up for the next day.  
        Mutual! Mutual! LOL it’s not just a decision by one of us.

  17. 37
    AllHeart

    Paula, you’re mistake is picking an abitrary number to have four play or sex. You ultimately got to do what is best for you. You ultimately have to make choices that perserve and respect your personal well-being so that you don’t end up feeling badly like you are now. If that means sex on the 6th date, then well okay. Or, if it means sex on the 20th..again okay. You can’t do the wrong thing with the right guy.   
    Pay closer attention to how the men you are seeing talk about women in general, how do they talk about their Moms, their female friends, other women, pay attention to if they spend alot of time looking at other women, how do they talk about sex, how do they bring up the subject of sex with you. You can learn alot about a man’s values this way. I know I have. And I’ve saved myself from some real users. Continue to be honest about what you are looking for and be direct enough to say, “If you are looking for sex, I’m not the woman for you.”  

  18. 38
    Joy

    I agree.   I am divorced. My husband left 5 years ago.   I didn’t sleep with anyone ( Almost died, lol), until just a   few weeks ago.   A friend of mine that I have always been very attracted to (  and  didn’t have a clue about how I  felt)   recently became available.   He called me and we went out for coffee. I told him how I felt and he told me that he knew about me not being easy ( my word not his).   It made him feel honored that I would be interested in him.   We started talking in October and I finally was intimate with him a few weeks ago…almost 6 months later.   He did work for it too.   This guy is not average, he is GORGEOUS! I mean…stinking hot!  He has the Body, face, brains, just everything. He even  owns a very successful business.      He didn’t have to treat me special and work hard to “get laid” if that’s all he wanted.  I’m positive there are MANY women that would give it out to him in a  sec,  but he did work hard for “it”.    That made ME feel special. So, whether or not we go all the way to marriage I don’t know, BUT I do know he respects me.   =) He confides in me with his deepest thoughts and feelings.   He has told me he was “tired of trash” and that he was honored to be with a woman of my “caliber”.   I think you’re right and if we want something deep and meaningful then we have to make that evident in our lives and to the men around us.   He brings me coffee to work  and he fixes my car, cooks me dinner. We go hiking and fishing together…it’s awesome.   It’s an amazing feeling and I’m glad I didn’t give in to all the guys who came calling. =)

    1. 38.1
      Holly

      Joy, you are my idol. Thank you for sharing this! It gives me so much hope!!!

    2. 38.2
      SparklingEmerald

      Joy – If you are happy in this relationship then I’m happy for you. If you don’t mind me asking what did your guy mean when he said he was “tired of trash” ?

      Did he mean the girls he slept with where they didn’t make him “work for it ” ? Or did he mean something else ?

  19. 39
    Holly

    Wow, Evan, my brain is popping right open. I see it! It’s like the retrospect and the perspective of this article have thrown my entire relationship with my ex-boyfriend both into technicolor and THX sound all at once. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! I get it!

  20. 40
    N

    I just want to say thank you. thank you for everything you have said. you have put so many things into perspective for me as a 22 year old. I will easily take back any nasty comment another woman has posted on here, just to let you know that you have helped me. I cannot give you enough thank yous.

    all the best,
    N

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