Does Online Dating Even Work?!
Dear Evan,
I was curious as to what your real opinion is of online dating. I did meet my girlfriend online, but after a year of painful struggle, meaning hardly any dates despite being educated, employed, and reasonably attractive. Friends of both genders tell that their experiences have been hard in different ways. My guy friends (also educated, attractive) complain that they get no responses and female acquaintences tell me that they get so many emails, etc, that they don’t know where to start-and often do nothing. They don’t have time to “date around” several times a week.(actually neither would I). I assume that the problem exists due to security. Women, being more vulnerable than men, are more hesitant to date online, so you get a situation where there’s a lot more men than women. Aside from my own luck and the trendy radio ads and sexy commercials, it seems as if no one’s happy.
Geoff
Dear Geoff,
Glad to hear you found someone special, and even happier that you spoke up. Most of the people that write about online dating write about what’s wrong with it. It makes sense. I mean, that’s what news is – emphasize the bad, misery loves company, etc. Turn on the TV and it’s not about kittens being saved from trees, but drive-by shootings. That doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of kittens saved from trees.
Go to one of those websites that reviews dating sites and you’ll see the same. Average review will be 2 out of 5 stars or something like that. Why? Because people who get married from online dating sites rarely get back online to post happy reviews on websites. They move on with their lives, while everyone else complains about the sites and the awful people on the sites.
I don’t deny ANYBODY the negative experiences that they’ve had. I just urge people to find some healthier perspective on the whole thing. A private client told me just this weekend that she’s quitting online dating after three bad dates in a row. Here is what I wrote back to her:
First of all, I’ve had EVERY bad dating experience you can possibly imagine. I’ve had women write me nasty emails, insult me over the phone, ignore my phone calls, stand me up, refuse to thank me for dinner, refuse to reciprocate in bed… Are you getting the idea? And yet I still run around as this super dating advocate, because I believe it is the best prospect to find someone special. If you choose to wait for lightning to strike until you go on another date with the “right” guy, you might be waiting a long, long time. Like, FOREVER.
Abstinence isn’t the answer. Mustering the courage to persevere in light of bad experience is.
Listen, you might think I’m nuts to keep on preaching positivity. That’s fair. All I know is that it’s freakin’ HARD to meet someone. We have our small lives: our circle of married friends, our work buddies, a few single people, and that’s it. And as you get into your mid-30’s, the bar scene is really old and set-ups have become a bit of a joke. While it’s nice to say, “I want to meet someone organically, where our eyes meet, so I can feel chemistry”, that simply doesn’t happen very often. This is why I believe in online dating. Not because it’s perfect – not by a long shot. But because it creates opportunity where previously there was none. My first love, in 2003, was a Filipino woman that worked in the pharmaceutical industry and lived in a different part of town. I NEVER would have met her in “real life”. But I did meet her on Nerve.com. My best friend in New York is marrying a man she met on eHarmony. My sister is in love with a man she met on Nerve. My sister’s best friend is in love with a man she met on eHarmony. I have dozens of clients who are married, engaged and in love with people they met online. And these are just the people that I know well.
So let’s acknowledge the flaws of online dating: the liars, the bores, the flakes, the crazies, the morons, the perverts, the poor spellers, and so on. These people exist offline as well. They just have access to you online. So as I see it, you have two choices: quit online dating and make a supreme effort to go to as many parties, coffee shops and adult education classes as possible OR try to find a way to avoid the worst of the online daters. The third, and most popular choice, is to quit and wait for your soulmate to drop out of the sky, like “The Secret” for love. Yeah, keep praying, people.
Your best bet is to keep dusting yourself off, learning from your mistakes, and staying in the game. Sure, sometimes you’ll get burned. But sometimes, with enough perseverence (as well as luck, timing, a good profile and a positive attitude), you’ll fall in love. And if it hasn’t happened to you yet, you can say “What’s wrong with these terrible people on these awful sites?” Or you can ask, “How can I make this work for me, despite the obvious flaws?”
You know where I stand. But I’ll tell you, all it takes is one person – and you’ll be standing right with me.
When my father heard I was online dating he was deeply sceptical. He told me a story about a friend of his whose internet date had turned out to be morbidly obese as evidence that it was an avenue to be avioded at all costs. When I responded that
a) There are worse things in life then having dinner with someone who you find unattractive, and
b) His friend was at fault for not exchanging photos before meeting up
he was totally unconvinced, and more then a tad miffed that i should question his judgement. (Bear in mind that there weren’t even PCs around he was last single)
Anyway, my dad’s friend has subsequently met a great woman on the internet with whom he is in a committed relationship. Has my dad’s attitude changed- of course not- in fact i doubt he even recognises a connection.
My point, is that when people decide they’re going to form a negative opinion about something- negatively and consistency go out the window- and that’s why the internet horror stories receive such disproportionate prominence
Like you said… of course it has its pros and cons, like anything else in life.
I had a four-year relationship with someone I met online. And I’ve also met inconsiderate guys who “disappeared”, smart guys, not-so-smart guys, great guys, fun guys, guys who liked me (but the feeling wasn’t mutual), as well as the other way around. All types.
Yes, it’s a numbers game. I believe that you have to put yourself out there and take a chance if you’d like to meet someone.
Online dating does work but the men are leaving because online dating sites are not interactive enough. It’s all Tinder Rips mostly but there is no incentives for women to reply because there is no platform for guys to stand-out. It should, for example, a guy wants to get your attention. What if he could create a 10 sec “pic me!” Or women can pose “make my jiggle with giggles!” These may sound corny but for some it would make the experience some what fun. The plus is the women get to see personality and the guys have a chance to raise the bar so that looks aren’t always the factor.
I have had great online experiences but now these dating apps have gone to bot profits. Women need to be more honest and men need to stop being creeps. So you also need a rating system. The issues is a good dating app will need at least 3-5 years to kick in and most developers (young) rather sell a dream.
The other issue is preference. Everyone has a right to like what they like, however women can’t seem to know what a great guy is supposed to look or sound like because usually she is doing this in secrecy and her friends are unaware because she fears ridicule. Grow up. I met a terrific woman online and her family knows we met online and they love me because I represented what I wrote and I was ready.
Its not fair to anyone to write you want a LTR when you know you are in a relationship, playing games, testing the waters, looking for Instagram followers, etc. BE HONEST. men respect that and remember a conversation isn’t a commitment.
Overall, find a site that you like and just be patient. Speak your truth and represent your personality don’t force anything. Women are flooded with messages because they do not approach dating like men do, they think they have time, but they don’t. Who cares like everyone. This is about you not a timid toe dipper.
My best advice for Guys? Get a Wing-girl and take her to the hotspots with you. It is a pre-arranged role play that works because women want what they can’t have especially if a hot woman is all over you. Trust me it works. Find a hot woman and ask her this. Hi I know this may sound crazy but I am having a hard time dating and I was wondering if you would be my wing-gal sometime. Just to see what happens, all on me. Trust me if she has any personal whatsoever she is in. Use a cousin, your brothers wife it doesn’t matter. Don’t use foreigners though. But the wing-girl approach works and it’s better than online dating IMO.
best of luck
Hot spots? Like a 23-year-old? Who’s going out to bars and clubs after that? I can speak your language: I’ll assume your online dating success is because you live in a large city where your stats match the majority of your target demographic – height, material wealth, high social proof. Hell any fat uggo of a male can get almost any woman online as long as he has a doctorate, travel pics, a disposable (post-relationship) dog, and is 6’1. Make the list, get the dates.
I think you’re totally right that online dating is much better than the alternatives, even if it’s not perfect, but your reply begged the question.
The reader raised specific and common problems that people have with online dating, and you probably have better insight than anyone how to deal with them. For instance:
1. What’s a normal response rate? Should a guy who gets 5% response rate try to improve something, or should he feel like that’s about average?
2. If a woman gets a flood of emails on a dating site, how can she weed through them quickly and fairly?
I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog.
Cheers,
Janet
I’m not an “expert” but from my experience and what I’ve read;
1) A 5% response rate seems slightly low for guys messaging women, most of the ones I’ve spoken to have a 10%-20%, which means that something is probably amiss either in your profile or in your messages. (I actually go check the guy’s profile and survey question answers before I respond on Okcupid, because that tells me straight-away if there are obvious deal-breakers, like him wanting kids or being a smoker.) Make sure that your profile and desires match up with what she’s looking for and be certain that important information is on your profile, because if it doesn’t say one way or the other she’ll likely just delete your message and move on.
2) Unfortunately the fastest and best way I’ve found still wouldn’t work if a woman is actually getting hundreds of messages. However on sites like OKCupid deciding you won’t bother with percentages over a certain amount for your enemy rating (I’ve found 10% or lower to be pretty good for avoiding deal breakers) or under a certain amount for your match rating (75% or higher seems to be okay with me) is one way, then from there actually reading things should be more manageable.
Honestly the huge influx of messages is usually only initially, and will decrease dramatically if you use the block button for people that are never going to be your type. I only get maybe three-six messages a day and of those two are usually continued conversations, one might be a new intriguing message and then the other three are instant block people (A.k.a. people who think “I’d lik u to sit on ma face” is an appropriate first message, and have an enemy rating so high you wonder if they are trying to be unlikable.)
OK, here’s my take on the situation,
Dating online works. You gotta look at it in a freakonomics style! And it seems every man on my dating website has read the darn book, so you guys might be able to relate to this and ladies, listen up, it works!
There are a given number of possibilites out there in the world for you. You date online, and you expand your possibilities for meeting a match. But as there are a lots of frogs in the real world, there are a lot of cyber frogs as well. So, if you get hundreds of responses as a woman, you’ve got to cull through the bogs to get to the 3-5% that are worth responding to. Then of that 3-5%, the rate of success may only be 1. BUT 1 is all you need!! So, to answer teh rate of return for guys: if the standard guy puts out 50 fishing nets for a fish and he gets a couple responses back, that falls in line with our response rate as women!
As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, let’s be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others. When you’ve picked a handful of ones that look most promising, take the time to really read their profiles and be honest with yourself!!
My friends and I have foudn this process works pretty well and quickly!
Good luck
Happy Matching!
I heard, there are only, three dating sites, that have the most people on it. I believe it was match, american singles, and Yahoo. Even then, the ratio, if you are in your 20’s, is not good for men, but, I was told, it increases if you are looking for a mature woman….
Online dating does work for some people; for others it doesn’t. The ladies have the advantage here because they get a flood of msgs from guys within minutes of posting their profiles. We guys, on the other hand, get very few responses to our profiles other than form letters from girls who look like porn stars & are most likely spammers. Just like, during sex, millions of sperm race toward one egg–so too in online dating, hundreds of us men compete for the attention of one woman, so our prospects of ever getting a reply, much less a date, are bleak. Thus I believe that online dating works better for women than for men.
We, Women receive many msg but when we get to meet the men, they act like they like you and then never call you afrer, they are looking for beautiful, even though they are ugly, looser etc. if you are skinny, very pretty or petit you have better As a woman. And thus is my experience and my friend’s.
Don’t kid yourself. Women are worse. You have to be 5’11” or wealthy, etc. Please. At least a woman can lose weight as opposed to a guy getting taker.
Megan is spot on. Most men won’t wait around for a woman to lose even 5-10 lbs not to mention the creepers who are only looking for someone 15-20+ yrs younger than themselves.
Personally, at 5’4″, I prefer my mate not to be over 5’9″. As for wealth, I just expect him to have a job, any job, consistently, which I think is reasonable considering I have had a job since I was 14 except when in college full time (and still often employed part time then).
News flash, all men are seeking younger women, not just creeps. Secondly online dating is a complete waste of time due mainly to the attitude that women bring to the table.And that attitude is that if they are not immediately overwhelmed by unbridled passion at the first sight of their lover to be, they are not going to bother replying to anything the man says to them.I would say there is less than a 1 in 1000 chance of a woman replying to any given message sent to them, even if they are all immaculately worded and peer reviewed for flaws and shortcomings.
Online dating is a lost cause, and I would say to anybody considering it “DONT BOTHER!”
Dan ignores that one third of marriages start online and that the average response rate for men is closer to 15%, not 1/1000. Looks like someone is not very effective using the same medium that works for millions of others.
dan, men seek younger, not only for the mere fact, also, because one has a better chance of getting a date, mature women no longer have hormones, and are very hard to get going again…
Dan, responding to your comment about 1/3 of marriages start online. Do you have the statistics of how many of those marriages ended in divorce? I know 5 out of 5 people who met someone online, married them and then divorced. Not really liking those odds.
Evan, responding to your comment about 1/3 of marriages start online. Do you have the statistics of how many of those marriages ended in divorce? I know 5 out of 5 people who met someone online, married them and then divorced. Not really liking those odds.
Perfect example of how your small sample says nothing about the larger population. Click here.
Just because a woman gets a bunch of messages does not mean it’s easier. I tried online, and yes I get many initial messages- so? It’s all about numbers hey? I’m an attractive professional with a good career. So yes, I get a lot of attention, but from men completely incompatible either severely older or younger, do not take care of themselves one bit, etc… Out of say 20 emails, 5 seem like nice guys and 5 others barely have anything in their profile and the remaining 10 only write ” you’re hot”. I reply to those first 5 ask the other 5 if they can provide a bit more info on their profile.
Only 2-4 will respond, and in a few days either the emailing fades off to nothing or they keep on writing and never ask to meet. When I ask, they disappear. Very rarely do I finally meet someone in person.
Oh, and it’s a 1 in 20 chance a guy I first contact responds.
I am a woman who has tried on line dating. I get many messages. I have been on very few dates. I am very nervous about meeting strangers from the Internet. I am not afraid per se. I just find the whole experience nerve wracking. I also have a very hard time as a female revealing my age on the Internet for personal and career reasons. When I posted my actual age, I got no responses from men in my actual age range. They were all much too old (physically, stage of life, health wise) or much too young (looking for “Mrs. Robinson” or a “cougar”). I got much more realistic responses when I “lied” about my age. Where else but on the Internet does a grown man ask a woman her age? I post current photos and I look good. This dilemma makes me anxious. I get quizzed on the phone, quizzed on the date, I get very nervous and cannot be myself. I really don’t care how old the man is. If they put up a current photo of themselves and write a profile that is of interest to me , I will reply. I think the best model would be “what are you searching for”. It is very strange to declare your age on the Internet. It is confidential information. I never ask a person their age when I first meet them. I can tell by being near them if they seem too immature or too retiring for me. I don’t ask them how much money they make and I don’t ask them how much rent they pay. Or what property they own. They can volunteer that information if they see fit, and, as men, that is usually something they like to talk about, so I don’t even have to ask. I am more interested in their marital status, whether they have or want children, their spiritual beliefs, their intellectual and cultural interests, their sense of humor, good hygiene (some don’t make that grade!) Most men (and women) who I meet never guess my age. I look much younger than my years and take great care of myself. The only person I tell is my physician. He has to know.
I have found on line dating to be stressful. I started doing it because I was alone for so long I just wanted to go out and hoped I would meet at least a new friend. I am not comfortable revealing my age for all to see. And the men seem genuinely horrified that I have “lied” and am really so “old”. Honestly, you would have thought I just revealed that I lied about my marital status or drug addiction or something much more significant. It doesn’t matter. They have come to the conclusion that I am a “liar”. (It is very easy to search someone’s age on the Internet. I never do. Men seem obsessed with this.) And on this particular website the men don’t even have a “married” or “single” category. Just “man”. Whereas the women have to make a selection for marital status. What’s up with that?
My in box is flooded with messages. Then I get loads of “correspondence”. Then a few phone calls. Then perhaps a date. I have had men promise to call me back that never did. Broken dates at the last minute. Dates where the guy was way too forward. I come home very stressed out. I am so glad for the people that have luck with this. I am not one of them.
..the first 3 dates can be anxiety filled…
No disrespect to 40 somethings, but has it EVER occured to you that some men would like to be able to start families some day and that women do have an age limit when it comes to having children?
I’m a man in my mid thirties and the only women I’ve “met” online who seem genuine about wanting to meet rather than chat online forever, are like in their mid forties. Yes, some of them ladies are very attractive, often more interesting to talk to as well, so if you’re a guy who doesn’t want kids I guess that’s fine, but there’s no excuse to mislead men who actually have hopes in online dating, no matter how good you look.
Talking about liars, I just got told by a girl she “wasn’t ready to start a relationship even though she thought she was” and cancelled our first date two days prior after like 30 pages of messages on that site and hours of phone conversations. If that won’t make one write off online dating FOREVER, I don’t know what will! I’m OUT!
This is what’s so frustrating about the man/female dynamic in dating.
In their 30s a majority of women are looking to settle down and have a relationship that leads to marriage and family. In their 30s a majority of men are looking to “have fun” and “keep it casual” and “not looking for anything serious.
In their 40s a majority of men are ready to settle down and have a family. In their 40s a majority of women are then deemed “too old” to be considered to have a family, which is frustrting because she spent her entire 30s looking for a man who’d want to settle down.
So, when women are in their 30s, they’re too serious for men.When they’re in their 40s, they’re too old. Seems we can’t when either way.
I just turned 40 and have met nothing but “let’s just have fun and chill and have sex and be friends and be cool and casual” men for ten years. Now, I”m considered too old to be considered for anything other than “let’s just have fun and chill and have sex and be friends and be cool and casual.” I even had to have a surgery and decide if I wanted to keep the ability to have kids a few years ago. I decided to keep the ability because I hoped I’d meet someone.
Still met no one.
The “I’m too young to settle down” with the “Now, you’re too old for me to settle down with” will keep a woman single forever.
If what you say is true for most women…then women in their 30s need to seriously consider dating men in their 40s since both genders are at the same life stage at that time.
I don’t think a 10 year age gap is bad, if the male is the older one in the relationship.
There might be something to that Karmic. I’m in my mid-30s and my boyfriend is in his early 40s. It’s the most stable and fulfilling relationship I’ve ever had, in large part because we’re in the same place in life and want the same things. Actually, a lot of times I even forget about our six year age gap and it feels more like dating a peer.
Kyra, I’m just wondering, what age range are you looking at? Perhaps try older men, who won’t see 40 as “old”? I have personally found that in general, men are looking down at younger age ranges. Most of my 30-something peers were either looking for something casual, or were looking for women in their 20s. I had more success when I took a serious look at the age range above me, at men who saw me as “young”! Maybe you might have to do the same thing and increase the upper limit of your age range too. And that doesn’t have to be a terrible thing either–there are attractive men in all age ranges (besides my boyfriend and his adorable dimples, I also found a lot of other attractive older men online too).
Kyra – I agree. When I left my first (abusive) marriage with no children in my early thirties and was hit on my men in their 40’s all I could think was ewww. To make matters worse, they all seemed to think a relationship was a women to work AND do all of the cooking and cleaning, i.e. a mommy, no thank you. That group of single men is still out there!! No surprise. Eventually, I stumbled into a relationship with someone in his 20’s and we were married for a few years (in the end, he also wanted a mommy to pay the bills and do everything else) from which I have my child at least.
Online dating has not been too fruitful for me since then. Too many babies who: just want to play or want a woman with income and to act as housemaid.
One of my last experiences was as WeshWesh described above, hours of talking (he was a salesman, so no real surprise) and when I finally met him it was not even possible to correlate the person in front of me with the one I had been talking to, so that was all pointless. Now if I am curious about someone, they have to be local and I don’t waste time with a lot of back and forth. Just set up a coffee date and find out quickly whether they are for real. But for right now – it’s time for a long break!!
Anyone… at any-age can have children. It a fact that more young woman today then ever because of infertility complications use insemination to implantation to fetal development to childbirth. No age requirements.
“I got more realistic responses when I lied about my age”
Hmmm, more realistic, or more what you wanted?
“It is very easy to search someone’s age on the internet. I never do. Men seem obsessed with this.”
And most women, of course, would never do this, right? I mean, certainly not women in their fifties and beyond? Uh-huh. I’m 68 and I refuse to lie about it. I’m sure I’d get more profile views, if I shaved off a few years; I have no problem in the real world getting dates with women in my age range (roughly 50 to 70- it’s flexible). So why won’t I lie, just a little, to get them to at least take a look? Simple. If a woman’s heart and mind are so small and narrow that she ignores a man strictly because of a number, especially when we’re both past the breeding and child-rearing stage of life, then to me, she frankly isn’t worth the sacrifice of my integrity to begin with.
I’m taking a break right now, but when I resume dating, you had better believe it’ll be in the real world first, and online second (if at all). I’m not stupid enough to make myself solely dependent on the vagaries of an age and photo driven catalog shopping marketplace that tends to deny a man my age (and older women as well, BTW) a real opportunity to showcase the best they have to offer (it’s a little hard to do that, if your profile never gets read).
Incidentally, I have one question for all the 50 and up ladies here; if confidence and character are the things that really attract you to a man, just how is it you can discern those from a photo and an age, without even reading a profile? I ask, because many of you act online as if you think you can do just that, and I’m frankly curious as to how you manage such a (to me, anyway) seemingly magical feat. There’s no intent here to try to change your preferences, just to make you think a bit.
Interested ~ I love and admire your courage and honesty. Love you! Number one rule in my book. No lies. We cannot build a foundation on untruths. You are not the most mature (age) online nor the youngest. This is a red flag. I always feel that a man with personality does not need to chat with questions that is a red flag and would annoy me as well. Don’t trade down! If you have a type stop! Also, be mysterious, fun, take control and be aggressive! Get what you want! This is your time and you can have anything you want, you just make sure you never deny yourself what you deserve. I would squish you if I could. Love and Light!
WJB
Sorry, but it’s as if you refuse to believe a beautiful-looking woman would possibly want you. I think this is also why it can go wrong. You could have bagged yourself a true stunner, there. Ha ha. People’s judgements can be so clouded or restrained, that they end up having sometimes, wrong judgements about a person. Just because they’re physically attractive, it doesn’t mean they don’t want you. Maybe your self-confidence is low. Why do people only settle for less, every time? Sitting there, complaining about it, won’t change a thing. You have to be practical about it. Go for the jugular. Sooner rather than later..
to collins,
smart, intelligent women select with their ears,,,,,,,,, it is in the wording, your profile has to say, what a woman needs to hear……
Why Internet Porn is better than Internet Dating…
Internet Dating: 90 percent of women on it are dogs
Internet Porn: 90 percent of women on it are hot
Internet Dating: Takes lots of time, little payoff
Internet Porn: Takes little time, big payoff
Internet Dating: Identifying multiple personality factors that ensure compatibility
Internet Porn: Big tits/hot body = compatibility
Internet Dating: To find that special someone who will love you for being you
Internet Porn: To never worry about that special someone turning your life into a living nightmare
Internet Dating: Waiting days or weeks to see if she’ll return your e-mails
Internet Porn: Waiting seconds to download pics from “Hootersland.com”
Internet Dating: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again
Internet Porn: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again
This might be sad, but unfortunatly is very true.
hahaha…this is so funny ! but this will lead to loneliness for life… porn stars doesn’t truly care for you but at least internet dating you might strike something good in the end, a life partner that truly cares for you … but love the way you put it… Internet Dating versus Internet Porn….. hahaha
Hmmm. Online dating doesn’t work for average looking women over 30. I tried it for a year and only attracted men who seemed resentful that I was ‘all they could get’ and seemed to expect sex as some sort of ‘pay off’ for spending an afternoon with me. I entered into the experience with an open mind, viewing online dating as an opportunity to meet men outside work and my social circle, and was looking for friendship first, with the possibility of a relationship if we clicked. I’m trendy, well-groomed but average looking, and I’m very slim but petite (5ft). Suspecting I’m no man’s fantasy woman, I posted my same written profile with taller vital stats and a prettier girl’s photo – yep, approaches went through the roof. I know I should have expected more ‘success’ as a sweet leggy lady anyway, but that’s when I decided to leave online dating.
Yes, you are absolutely right, Ruby. And this is even true with men:
Just for fun, I have tried a variety of things with my profile description, from a very thought description that tries to give women an idea of who I really am to simply saying, “Please ask and I will tell you.”
And how did my responnse rate change based on this? Not at all. In fact, I could litterally put any type of description in my profile, and the only thing that seems to make any difference is the picture I post.
We all have unflattering photos of ourselves, and when I post these, no one flirts, winks or responds to my e-mails (I don’t send the winks and flirts.) But when I post a “good” picture of me, I get a fair number of all of the above.
And, of course, this is just human nature, and we all do it. But I had really hoped to find the real deal who would like me for who I am and who would still love me when I’m 64, but I don’t think I will ever be able to find that on an internet dating site.
I have tinkered with my profile too. The only real impact has come from altering my height and income. The taller I “am” (or list myself as being), the more replies I get. The higher my income, the more replies I get. Same photos. In part, this may be because women in my area (NYC) tend to set the search parameters as
5′ 10″ and up
150k +
When I list as 5′ 9″ and leave my income field empty, I get no views.
When I list as 5′ 11″ and leave my income field empty, I get some views.
When I list as 5 ‘9″ with an income 250-500k, I get a lot of views and some good messages.
When I list as 5′ 11″ with an income of 250-500k, I get a lot of views and a many, many messages (some of which are good, some of which are hate mail, and some of which ask if my profile is real).
In reality, I am 5’ 8″ with a high income.
Well Avery you’ve just proved what I found out last year by “tinkering” (but really already knew). When you’re 5’11” or taller and make 100K a year or MORE of course. You have much more value to women. Obviously the taller you are and the more you make your value increases. You really want to get crazy? Throw in a Masters or PhD….LOL I really don’t think we need to do a study to find out women prefer tall wealthy educated men over the opposite.
Really? Guess I never messaged you. Guess your type just doesn’t stick around. Or you get my messages and ignore them. This is why online dating sites don’t work.
Honestly umm.. I’m generally very attracted to women with your stats 😛 The problem with online dating, from a man’s perspective, is honestly… I don’t get replies from women that are most definitely in my league. I’m 6’3″ and overweight but not a slob… I lift weights and stay fairly presentable. I present myself very accurately online.. I do not get messages.. the 1 message I might see over 2 months will be from the absolute bottom end… basketball-figure, no car, no job, no social skills. This is not an exaggeration either.
My experience is the same as Matt’s. I have had success at school, bars, and party’s connecting with girls that are “in my league”. However, when using online dating sites, I don’t get any replies back from these exact same type of girls. Suddenly I’m the elephant man? I pick up girls in real life that are cute, not models, but they’re definitely good looking. I can’t even get an average looking girl to simply reply back to a basic message online. Something’s off. I’m a good looking guy with a very strong income for my area. Changing my profile around does nothing. Most women I see put hardly any effort into theirs. Since I still meet girls out and about I only use online dating as another way to meet people. Thank goodness, as I’ve still yet to meet anyone who’m I’ve contacted through online dating sites.
been their done that. 1 year online dating nothing. the online date site says be patience. I had 1 date at a coffee/diner rest. she freaked out that I showed up in clean 59 ford truck 4×4. I’m sorry I don’t drive a new a vehicle. I’m just a working middle class guy. earning a scratch. well back too online dating again
Hi Tom –
Just so you know, most attractive women on the Internet get LOTS of messages. I was getting so many messages from so many men, reading their profiles, seeing what matched for ME. A lot of the women are looking for something in particular. If you say you pick up attractive girls while you are out, consider this: MOST women can pick up guys all the time. They do not need to go on the Internet to do it. They are looking for something that is right for THEM, not that is right for YOU.
It is not a pick up site. It is a dating website. If you read the profiles you will probably see that most of the women are looking for a friend for a relationship. Not a pick up. And the truth is, Tom, MOST women do get MANY messages. If the in person thing is working for you, I would just stick with that. I tried Internet dating (I am a woman) because I was having no luck in person lately. I had no luck on the Internet either. I am really looking to meet a serious partner.
The only advice I can give you is if you DO leave messages, try to make it pertinent to some content of what is in the woman’s profile, to show that you read it and that you are interested. And if you read it and you are not all that interested, then what difference does it make if she replies or not?
I prefer the old fashioned way of doing things and you are lucky if you are meeting lots of girls while you are out socializing and so on. It’s great! Don’t sweat over the Internet. It’s not the end of the world.
…hi interested,
If most attractive women can find a man without going on the internet, then , why, don’t they, instead of staying home eating ice cream?..
The problem is a numbers game. If you ever have an interest set up a profile as a woman. One you would email and then just sit back and see what happens and you will understand. Want to really get a feel? Post a picture of a very attractive female and pretend to be her. See how many emails you get in an hour and see how horrible some of them are. Then you will understand this is not about you at all. We get bombarded with emails even what you call average looking girls and the hot ones well it’s nuts. So what happens at a certain point is we just start looking at pictures because that’s the easiest way to sort through 65 emails. It’s not the best way of course and many men take poor pictures or are the type of men like you who if I met in person I’d probably really like but you are getting lost in the shuffle. And while I really want to and at first tried to send a no thank you to every guy that emailed me it was just too much and I found that it prompted an increase of nasty follow ups from men wanting to know why I was rejecting them or why no one liked them or why I was being such a well you put the nasty word in there. So trust me it’s not you at all! And I’m sorry.
me too am yet to meet someone
Find me an average looking woman between 30 and 40, who is caring, not superficial, has a little bit between her ears and has the patience to want to spend time getting to know somebody for a serious relationship and you’ll make my day.
I look for them, but don’t seem to find that many. I guess it is the story about the parking spaces 🙂 .
willowandy,
drop the little bit between the ears, and patience to want to spend time….and you will find herds of women…
It’s me
Confidence!!!! Lol. I am 44 and I look like Denzel Washington on Tuesday’s and Thursday’s! Your beauty isn’t defined by what you think it is or what society portraits it to be. Your beauty is your confidence even if you only have 8 toes! Well dammit those are the 8 most beautiful toes and if you don’t like find the other missing two and suck on em. I don’t care about a few extras or if you are petite. Do you define WOMAN! I should make you feel sexy and vice versa, if you are not highly sexual then be honest about it.
In the past 8 years, I’ve done plenty of online dating, enough that I’m considered an internet dating expert. My conclusion? It doesn’t work. As I’ve said in my blog, chemistry is felt, not articulated in checkboxes and online prose. Plus, expectations are too high going into an online date. You meet under the pretense that the other person might be “the one”. When they aren’t, you fell deflated. But a good date should make you feel the opposite – elated about the potential and possibility!
The best way to meet people to date is through friends – BBQs, parties, clubs, social groups. The common bond is a great starting point. What do you have in common with someone else who online dates – you both subscribed to the same service?
Agreed. Though what if, like myself, you have moved to an area far away from family and friends. I do not dance (2 left feet is an understatement) so clubs are out. Sans friends there are no party invites.
Any bar I have found in the area is filled with married couples or people 20-30 years older than me.
Where do I then go to get a jumping off point? Online I’m ultimately looking for love but would be thrilled just to meet someone who is willing to get me out the house and into the world for a time. Sadly I have hundreds of emails sent with ZERO replies. I am told I am a good looking man and have attractive eyes. I assume my 5’7 stature is a negative but most women I post to list 5’5 or 5’6 as being acceptable….
Where do you go when you can’t find a real-world option?
Like a lot of people I’ve been internet dating since the dawn of the internet back when the sites were free….ie: Early “Webpersonals” was one of the first as was “American Singles” and even Yahoo personals was originally free. I’ll even go back further than that, before the internet we were using photoless newspaper personals with voice mail and sending letters and photo’s by snail mail…lol(quite the chore mind you back in 1989)
To answer the question “Does online dating work ?” The answer to that is an opinion ….but is it really ? If you go just by the numbers like what percentage of people actually make it to a “phone conversation” or a “coffee date” or a “5th date” or the unimaginable “I think it’s time we take our profiles down and only see each other”….lol let alone marriage. I think the numbers would show you’ve got a better chance of being struck by lightening on a sunny day than meeting your “soulmate”….lol That being said …can you meet people you wouldn’t normally meet and have some fun as well as a pile of frustration & aggravation thrown in for good measure. ABSOLUTELY !!
Will women get more dates and spend less money ? ABSOLUTELY !!
Will most men never get a response let alone a date ? ABSOLUTELY !!
Does online dating work ?? ABSOLUTELY !! for the people that are making millions running the sites as well as the very few people who meet someone and “hit it off” for ANY period of time.
I think Evan should write the definitive book on online dating and how it’s changed the landscape of dating & relationships in modern society.
IE: Women no longer have to leave the house and they can have 10 dates a week. They control pretty much every interaction online and the pace etc… They have so many options it even boggles their own minds to the point they get addicted to getting emailed everyday by idiots telling them “you’re hot”. Single moms who have no time to date or go out now have plenty of male companionship and interaction etc…
Women no longer have to go to a bar or singles event and wait to be approached by guys they don’t like. They can put up their blury picture from 5 yrs and 30 lbs ago and get tons of meaningless attention as well as deicde who they interact with and for how long…(usually 2 or 3 emails..lol) You get the drift as I’m rambling here. I’d be happy to co-author Evan. Let’s do it ! Unless it’s already been written and I have’nt found it ????
This is kind of funny, but also kind of sad. I split up with my ex boyfriend (who turned out to be too insane and not nice) over 3 years ago. After crying myself to sleep for months, I decided to get myself in gear and go out. I got on the Internet. I could not even get a coffee date. So I took myself out. To dinner. To the beach. To the park. For coffee. To the gym. To nightclubs. To concerts. To everywhere I was invited. I usually went by myself. I almost always paid for myself. Sometimes I paid for my friends. I am beautiful, kind and smart. I have never been married. I have a few nice male friends I know from the YMCA (I swim almost everyday and am in great shape, all natural, attractive features.)
I commented earlier about how nervous I am about Internet dating. It has been a real mixed bag for me. But it was the first time in 3 years that a man actually took me out to dinner. Before that I went out with my girlfriends or simply dined alone.
It was so stressful after the meal the man practically pounced on me. I was courteous, thanked him and said good night.
Yeah, Internet dating is a gold mine for women.
And by the way, I am not a single Mom either.
Wish I’d met you, you would’ve had a much different experience going out with me. Too many creeps on these sites ruin it for the good ones. :-/
My only reason for being on the two major sites (match and eharmony) are to find a lasting relationship. It’s right there in the profile. Nothing needy, nothing rushed, but that is surely my goal at any rate. I’m attractive, make a pretty good living, friendly, funny, loyal as hell, and want nothing more than to be happy and content with someone special (and get the hell of the sites). I seem to be what a lot of women are looking for, at least as stated in their profiles. I get almost no replies after sending some pretty decent emails using some of the stuff that they wrote, so no “ur hot” crap from me. And… nothing, most of the time.
Why is this so stupidly hard??
I’ve thought about this some more – turns out the online dating service sector is nearly a billion dollar a year industry. There’s money to be made by people who promote. Last I checked, the “online dating doesn’t work” industry isn’t quite so lucrative…
My not-so-scientific conclusions for the women 25-40 range. I’ve done match. Criteria – body type is slender, athletic or average. All other criteria open. I won’t look at the rest.
70% Single mothers – out. I’m not dating single mothers.
Remaining 30% – Here’s where it gets funny.
Weed out the ones who are ugly, or who are lying ( ie – ‘athletic’ means 5’6″ and could play linebacker for the 49ers). – 60% of the remaining 30%, so 12% of the available candidates are left.
Of the remaining 12% – start weeding out the non-compatible things. I love the 5’5″ girls who want guys 6’2″ & up. Smokers, out. Weed out the women who expect they guy earn 2-3x more than they (you know, the teachers who want their date to make $150k +), weed out the attention whores who have their bikini pictures on there (good to look at, bad to date) or multiple pictures of dresses showing tons of cleavage. Very subtle. (and yet, they complain when we look…)
Further weed out the ones of pictures with professional athletes & actors (high mileage, VERY high mileage).
Weed out the plastic queens – the black eyebrows and unnaturally blonde hair, usually accompanied by very tan (real, UV, or spray-on) skin, fake nails, etc…see also attention whores and money hungry above.
Weed out the narcissists – the bodybuilders & fitness competitors, triathletes & every-other-weekend-is-a-race types. They’re addicts, maybe not of booze or drugs, but that same addicitive behavior is turned to fitness, etc. (Don’t get me wrong – I love working out & do it often, just not as a 2nd job. I also like to eat fun stuff, not count every calorie & food type)
Once you slog through that remaining 12% there’s little else left. The reality is that good, attractive, emotionally & physically healthy women don’t need to use an online service. It comes to them. It simply isn’t worth the time effort & expense to sort through all of this, if you’re a guy.
My 2 cents.
Vino is absolutely right, good, attractive physically fit women or men are not dating on line as they usually have a life!
This is a common misconception. Good attractive physically fit women, at least in the upper tier of attractiveness are more often than not sitting at home alone on date nights. Why you ask? Two reasons. Most men are afraid to approach them as they find them to be intimidating and so they don’t get asked out. The men that do have the courage to ask them out tend to be narcissts and jerks and so they end up in unhealthy relationships, and alone. The reason that most men don’t get a response is because they are seeking out the top percent of women as far as looks go online and so is everyone else. I suggest this to men, look on women that are not 8s and 10s and you will have a better shot. And only email women that you would actually approach in person.
lisa, the third reason why women stay home, they have become manhaters..
As much as my experiences (as a man) have thus far been very strange and disappointing, and as much as I wish I could justify giving up to myself, I am going to politely disagree. I have met a number of very desirable women. Granted, none of these situations has worked out and I would concede that I think that each of these attractive and successful women have unrealistic expectations. But my anecdotal experience is that they are out there, even if the ones with their heads screwed halfway normal are few and far between.
But, as the guy who writes this blog says, it only takes one.
I understand that people who are not parents would not want to put up with someone else’s kids in theory. Yet I married a man who had children from a previous marriage, and a previous relationship. I accepted his “baggage” because at the time I loved him. And that was not what split us up, either.
For all you childless people counting out dating a parent, you are doing yourself a tremendous disservice. You may grow to love and appreciate another person’s child! I know I did.
I myself do not like to date men who have no children–they often have childish, selfish attitudes and are emotionally stunted and irresponsible–but I make exceptions for those that may be good.
You should do likewise, if you really want to find a relationship.
“For all you childless people counting out dating a parent, you are doing yourself a tremendous disservice. You may grow to love and appreciate someone else’s child! I know I did.”
Reality Check,
I totally co-sign on that one. I have two biological children (one now deceased). I have three other great kids I love just as much, who would never have been a part of my life, if I hadn’t been willing to date and eventually marry their mother. Did they come with some headaches? You bet! Worth it, for the experience I shared with them as a sort of “second dad” ? Absolutely!There might be some things I’d change about my second and third marriages. That’s NOT one of them!
36 years old, single for over 10 years. Live in the middle of nowhere working on a farm. I only look for women with kids.
Agree with you about people who are very picky about height and income.
I don’t see the problem with somebody having a child though – why?
(Same question to women, as quite a few rule out single dads.)
I do not have children, but I am going to see a single parent this weekend, she came across as very intelligent, unpretentious and fairly serious about relationships.
willowandy,
good luck with that single parent!!
As far as the child thing I think it depends on your age range. If you are in your mid to late 30s and beyond I think it is unreasonable to disregard all the people that have children. However, the reason people do is that they are not ready for the responsibility of a family, they do not want an insta family. If this is the case then they should not seek out single parents, it is unfair for them to do so. If you are single and childness it is a total different lifestyle to date a single parent. I can pick up and fly to LA or another country at the drop of a hat, a parent could not do that. I have a lot more free time than a parent does to date as well. I understand the preference.
Ugh. Here’s a fun little profile. 38 Y.O., no kids. Attractive pictures, though, including boob job.
“I am a romantic, someone who believes Prince Charming still exists.”
Translation – I am a princess who doesn’t like reality as it applies between men & women.
“First impressions count! It is a must for me to feel chemistry!”
Translation – YOU better be hot, because even though I am 38 years old and 8+ years past my best looking days, I have fake boobs & botox. Therefore I am hot.
“I am searching for a partner that does not shy away from commitment.”
Translation – I am seeking someone who is blind, deaf & dumb to relationships, and would jump off a bridge willingly. I also think men a puerile who won’t grow up & commit to a woman, ignoring my responsibility in choosing men who won’t commit.
“Creative, independent, professional, sophisticated, and articulate female seeking a gentleman, who is: charming, romantic, refined, thoughtful, spontaneous and determined to find their soul-mate.”
Translation – Self-absorbed, over-estimated self, seeks sucker out of bad romance novel who as a ‘gentleman’ is willing to pay for everything.
Oh, I didn’t mention she had her date needs to make $150k +. Her income info is blank, but she does mention being self-employed.
At least she didn’t have cats.
If that’s the prevailing attitude, I’ll stick with the cats and be happy with no date. I’m sure a Golden Girls scenario in my later years will be preferable to some resentful guy who felt he had to settle.
Notice the double standard? If a woman wants a high income bracket she’s a gold digger. I say if a man will only date bikini models that makes him a “meat inspector.” Every good meat inspector needs a good gold digger to appreciate his assets.
I have a disability that keeps me from working full-time. That makes dating a pain online and off. Online I look for lower income guys–deliberately. I also look for unmarried Christian men (I’m Christian) who are within 10-15 years of my age.
I am very open when it comes to looks, but I prefer intelligent men who are marriage minded, but don’t want to become formally engaged within 2 months of dating! That’s a little too fast.
That’s my criteria. I don’t think it’s terribly picky or superficial.
It would be nice if I could find someone who lived within a 50 mile radius too with the price of gas going up.
Btw, I like cats, but can’t own one because of a pet songbird I own.
The town I live in doesn’t seem to attract many single men.
I’ve never tried on-line dating and I guess I’m not planning to do it in the nearest future. Here are just a few of my reservations:
1. Essentially, I do not see myself using a supermarket approach to address an issue of a pretty existential nature. I think the below quote from one of the posters is a good illustration of what I mean by supermarket approach:
„As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, let’s be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others.”
2. Then, there is an issue of how you perceive your, so called, private sphere. I do not see myself placing a photo (not to mention a photo showing the cleavage) and a lot of personal info on a public website where it can be viewed by basically everyone. (I guess people differ very much in what they perceive as a part of their private sphere as opposed to public sphere.)
3. I would be afraid that men who set themselves an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A GIRLFRIEND would want such a relationship to progress too quickly than what I would find comfortable.
4. I would NOT set myself an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A BOYFRIEND. Well, I do not believe that a soulmate might drop out of the sky, but I do believe that sometimes we just come to a realization that this someone who is around makes so much difference that you just cannot imagine the world without them.
Besides, a value a good story 🙂 So to a question “So, how you guys met?” I don’t want to answer “On match.com”
I normally don’t do this, but I can’t help myself.
Cinnamon:
1) If you’re meeting tons of great guys to date in real life, good for you! You don’t need online dating. However, if you aren’t dating lots and are wondering why your love life is dry, you’re spiting yourself by not going online.
2) See #1. Wanting to have a love life without making an effort to achieve it is empty. Wanting to date online and worrying about anonymity is similar. It’s like wanting to be an Olympic swimmer without getting wet. Hey, if you’re a politician or celebrity, I can see why you’d want to stay anonymous. But if you’re concerned about what others would think – uh – everyone else there is dating online, too. No shame in that.
3) You’re assuming that every guy who dates online is the same. I couldn’t imagine a more faulty assumption.
4) It’s great to be a happy and healthy single. It’s counterintuitive to think “your prince will come” when he has no idea where to meet you. Online dating is the most obvious spot to meet likeminded single people. But hey, go try the gym and let me know how it goes.
And to your last point: Yeah, the hundreds of thousands of happy couples who met online are really crying that they don’t have a better story to tell at parties.
I thank you, Cinnamon, for providing a valuable service to all the people out there who think like you do. Until you challenge your preconceived notions of how things are (Online dating is weird, it’s for losers, it’s for desperate people, love will find you when you least expect it), you’re doomed to the same results you’ve already been getting.
Warmest wishes – with love.
Evan
Evan,
After so many years of online dating yourself, you met your future wife not online, but at a party. Isn’t that correct?
Yes, but that’s not because online dating doesn’t work. 1/3 of marriages begin online. I didn’t meet my wife on Match because I wasn’t looking for an older woman and she wasn’t looking for a Jewish man. It was our BIASES that were the problem, not online dating itself.
Evan,
Here I have one question; did the online environment make it feel easier or harder (when you were doing it, not in hindsight) for you and your now-wife to indulge those very biases while still getting at least a satisfactory number of dates?
Neither my wife nor I had any trouble procuring online dates within our (too narrow parameters). But then, we were semi-attractive, educated people in our mid-30’s in Los Angeles. It is somewhat like shooting a fish in a barrel. Problem was that I was shooting in the wrong barrel.
More from the files of “What not to write in a first email”
“Funny we both have XXXX XXXXXXXX in our list of books recently read. Love his simple, straightforward advice. What type business are you in?”
Subtle.
Dating online is beneficial long-term to those to who own and promote the sites, bottom line is money making, not quality. They sell people and the few success stories they have, but no one really knows the statistical outcomes of meeting online. The divorce rate in the US is still very high, even higher for second marriages. We’re still doing something very wrong to have the cornerstone, most important relationship of our adult lives, fail…
I guess if you’re not too busy and don’t mind having to psychoanalyze and background check you’ve got it made. My findings are most people online are not living authentic lives and are not attractive to me. They can sure “sound” like they are, but only after time, sometimes a lot of time, can one see the truth. I want to meet the healthy people who are living good quality lives, and that success, for me personally, only happens in person. Being in communities where people know people helps reduce the amount of sleuthing I have to do. I have found the best quality of people off-line.
To me, doing the online thing takes too long to filter out who the liars are because some people have had lifelong experience at it and can be quite good. Meeting the person in person usually seals the deal or ends it. I am often quite surprised at how carelessly, haphazardly, and cluelessly some people go about this very important process. If they’re a flake at dating, I don’t need any further information!
With the proliferation of spammers, married people, general scum online, I have had much better success online dating in the past than recently. I no bother with online dating sites, I am looking for authentic folks who live the lives they say they do, not those who are online due to boredom, loneliness, lack of social skills, for whom this is merely a game, etc.
Online dating works for some, but for me it is way too much work for something I was paying money for when the quality people don’t seem to be online anyway.
I enjoyed your thoughts and agree. After much consideration as to whether I should try online dating I have decided not too. Being apart of a good community I enjoy the people around me, and they continue to bring the best out of me. I am old fashioned in some respects, and protective of myself, but only because I value me in all my uniqueness & thrive off bringing the best out of others. True love wont drop out of the sky for me. I am 32 self employed designer who pours herself too much into her work. The decision I have made is to make more time for people. To remain open, relaxed and cracking jokes in my usual wacky way without trying to impress or be something I am not. I’m brilliant and I reckon lots of brilliant men are trying online dating right now but I would not wish to set any criteria on a profile or judge a photo in an attempt to find you. I dont want you to be perfect, no one is. If I have to search online for you I fear I would miss you in the confusion of the crowd! Basically Im with you all on this and drinks are on me if you come to my local!
vino,
like attracts like.
That’s all I am gonna say.
Dating Online is not perfect. But really annoys me is when girls I ask out from dating sites put Online dating down yet they are there to chat to. I use Online Dating as a gateway to meeting someone and arranging to meet up. I can tell you I have had three girlfriends.
All from Plenty Of Fish.com.
The only way I can understand why people try to talk me out of using online dating is because they are so confident that they don’t need online dating to meet someone. But why are they on there then?
It is hypocritical. I am a shy man who just wants to be given a chance and I have met loads of wrong people online. But as I mentioned earlier I have met girls from the net so that is the main reason I keep using Online Dating sites. It isn’t the site’s fault it is the people I choose to talk to. Sorry if it offends anyone but I sometimes don’t get why confident people are online. They are capable enough to meet someone for real in a club or something.