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I was curious as to what your real opinion is of online dating. I did meet my girlfriend online, but after a year of painful struggle, meaning hardly any dates despite being educated, employed, and reasonably attractive. Friends of both genders say that their experiences have been hard in different ways. My guy friends (also educated, attractive) complain that they get no responses, and female acquaintances tell me that they get so many emails, etc., that they don’t know where to start and often do nothing. They don’t have time to “date around” several times a week. (actually, neither would I).
I assume that the problem exists due to security. Women, being more vulnerable than men, are more hesitant to date online, so you get a situation where there are a lot more men than women. Aside from my own luck and the trendy radio ads and sexy commercials, it seems as if no one’s happy.
Geoff
Dear Geoff,
Glad to hear you found someone special using dating platforms online and even happier that you spoke up. Most people who write about online dating ask what’s wrong with it. It makes sense. I mean, that’s what news is – emphasize the bad, misery loves company, etc. Turn on the TV, and it’s not about kittens being saved from trees but drive-by shootings. That doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of kittens saved from trees.
Go to one of those websites that reviews dating sites, and you’ll see the same. The average review will be 2 out of 5 stars or something like that. Why? Because people who get married after using dating apps rarely get back online to post happy reviews on websites. They move on with their lives after meeting people, while everyone else complains about using dating sites and the awful people on the sites.
I don’t deny ANYBODY the negative experiences that they’ve had. I just urge you to find some healthier perspective on the whole thing and maybe, if you’re going to do it right, enhance your online dating profile. A private client told me just this weekend that she’s quitting online dating after three bad dates in a row. Here is what I wrote back to her:
First of all, I’ve had EVERY bad dating experience you can possibly imagine. I’ve had women write me nasty emails, insult me over the phone, ignore my phone calls, stand me up, refuse to thank me for dinner, refuse to reciprocate in bed… Are you getting the idea? And yet, I still run around as this super dating advocate because I believe it is the best prospect to find someone special. If you choose to wait for lightning to strike until you go on another date with the “right” guy, you might be waiting a long, long time. Like, FOREVER.
Abstinence isn’t the answer. Mustering the courage to persevere in light of bad experiences is.
Listen, you might think I’m nuts to keep on preaching positivity. That’s fair. All I know is that it’s freakin’ HARD to meet someone. We have our small lives: our circle of married friends, our work buddies, a few single people, and that’s it. And as you get into your mid-30’s, meeting people on the bar scene is really old, and set-ups have become a bit of a joke. While it’s nice to say, “I want to meet someone organically, where our eyes meet, so I can feel the chemistry,” that simply doesn’t happen very often.
This is why I believe in online dating. Not because it’s perfect – not by a long shot. But because it creates an opportunity to get to know other people where previously there was none. My first love, in 2003, was a Filipino woman that worked in the pharmaceutical industry and lived in a different part of town. I NEVER would have met and been able to get to know her in “real life.” But I did meet her on Nerve.com. My best friend in New York married a man she met on eHarmony. My sister married a man she met on Nerve. My sister’s best friend married with a man she met on eHarmony. I have thousands of clients who are in a long-term relationship, married, engaged, and in love with people they met using dating sites. And these are just the people that I know well.
So let’s acknowledge the flaws of online dating: the liars, the bores, the flakes, the crazies, the morons, the perverts, the poor spellers, and so on. These people exist offline as well. They just have access to you online. So as I see it, you have two choices: quit online dating and make a supreme effort to go to as many parties, coffee shops, and adult education classes as possible OR try to find a way to avoid the worst of the online daters. The third, and most popular choice, is to quit using dating apps and wait for your soulmate to drop out of the sky, like “The Secret” for love. Yeah, keep praying, people.
Your best bet is to keep dusting yourself off, learning from your mistakes, and staying in the game. Sure, sometimes you’ll get burned. But sometimes, with enough perseverance (as well as luck, timing, a good dating profile, and a positive attitude), you’ll fall in love and have a long-term relationship. And if it hasn’t happened to you yet, you can say, “What’s wrong with these terrible people on these awful sites?” Or you can ask, “How can I make this work for me, despite the obvious flaws?”
You know where I stand. But I’ll tell you, all it takes is one person – and you’ll be standing right with me.
Shrew says
When my father heard I was online dating he was deeply sceptical. He told me a story about a friend of his whose internet date had turned out to be morbidly obese as evidence that it was an avenue to be avioded at all costs. When I responded that
a) There are worse things in life then having dinner with someone who you find unattractive, and
b) His friend was at fault for not exchanging photos before meeting up
he was totally unconvinced, and more then a tad miffed that i should question his judgement. (Bear in mind that there weren’t even PCs around he was last single)
Anyway, my dad’s friend has subsequently met a great woman on the internet with whom he is in a committed relationship. Has my dad’s attitude changed- of course not- in fact i doubt he even recognises a connection.
My point, is that when people decide they’re going to form a negative opinion about something- negatively and consistency go out the window- and that’s why the internet horror stories receive such disproportionate prominence
Loverville says
Like you said… of course it has its pros and cons, like anything else in life.
I had a four-year relationship with someone I met online. And I’ve also met inconsiderate guys who “disappeared”, smart guys, not-so-smart guys, great guys, fun guys, guys who liked me (but the feeling wasn’t mutual), as well as the other way around. All types.
Yes, it’s a numbers game. I believe that you have to put yourself out there and take a chance if you’d like to meet someone.
Willjayb says
Online dating does work but the men are leaving because online dating sites are not interactive enough. It’s all Tinder Rips mostly but there is no incentives for women to reply because there is no platform for guys to stand-out. It should, for example, a guy wants to get your attention. What if he could create a 10 sec “pic me!” Or women can pose “make my jiggle with giggles!” These may sound corny but for some it would make the experience some what fun. The plus is the women get to see personality and the guys have a chance to raise the bar so that looks aren’t always the factor.
I have had great online experiences but now these dating apps have gone to bot profits. Women need to be more honest and men need to stop being creeps. So you also need a rating system. The issues is a good dating app will need at least 3-5 years to kick in and most developers (young) rather sell a dream.
The other issue is preference. Everyone has a right to like what they like, however women can’t seem to know what a great guy is supposed to look or sound like because usually she is doing this in secrecy and her friends are unaware because she fears ridicule. Grow up. I met a terrific woman online and her family knows we met online and they love me because I represented what I wrote and I was ready.
Its not fair to anyone to write you want a LTR when you know you are in a relationship, playing games, testing the waters, looking for Instagram followers, etc. BE HONEST. men respect that and remember a conversation isn’t a commitment.
Overall, find a site that you like and just be patient. Speak your truth and represent your personality don’t force anything. Women are flooded with messages because they do not approach dating like men do, they think they have time, but they don’t. Who cares like everyone. This is about you not a timid toe dipper.
My best advice for Guys? Get a Wing-girl and take her to the hotspots with you. It is a pre-arranged role play that works because women want what they can’t have especially if a hot woman is all over you. Trust me it works. Find a hot woman and ask her this. Hi I know this may sound crazy but I am having a hard time dating and I was wondering if you would be my wing-gal sometime. Just to see what happens, all on me. Trust me if she has any personal whatsoever she is in. Use a cousin, your brothers wife it doesn’t matter. Don’t use foreigners though. But the wing-girl approach works and it’s better than online dating IMO.
best of luck
Reg says
Hot spots? Like a 23-year-old? Who’s going out to bars and clubs after that? I can speak your language: I’ll assume your online dating success is because you live in a large city where your stats match the majority of your target demographic – height, material wealth, high social proof. Hell any fat uggo of a male can get almost any woman online as long as he has a doctorate, travel pics, a disposable (post-relationship) dog, and is 6’1. Make the list, get the dates.
Dom says
This guys gets it.
Janet says
I think you’re totally right that online dating is much better than the alternatives, even if it’s not perfect, but your reply begged the question.
The reader raised specific and common problems that people have with online dating, and you probably have better insight than anyone how to deal with them. For instance:
1. What’s a normal response rate? Should a guy who gets 5% response rate try to improve something, or should he feel like that’s about average?
2. If a woman gets a flood of emails on a dating site, how can she weed through them quickly and fairly?
I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog.
Cheers,
Janet
Spiffy Pumpkin says
I’m not an “expert” but from my experience and what I’ve read;
1) A 5% response rate seems slightly low for guys messaging women, most of the ones I’ve spoken to have a 10%-20%, which means that something is probably amiss either in your profile or in your messages. (I actually go check the guy’s profile and survey question answers before I respond on Okcupid, because that tells me straight-away if there are obvious deal-breakers, like him wanting kids or being a smoker.) Make sure that your profile and desires match up with what she’s looking for and be certain that important information is on your profile, because if it doesn’t say one way or the other she’ll likely just delete your message and move on.
2) Unfortunately the fastest and best way I’ve found still wouldn’t work if a woman is actually getting hundreds of messages. However on sites like OKCupid deciding you won’t bother with percentages over a certain amount for your enemy rating (I’ve found 10% or lower to be pretty good for avoiding deal breakers) or under a certain amount for your match rating (75% or higher seems to be okay with me) is one way, then from there actually reading things should be more manageable.
Honestly the huge influx of messages is usually only initially, and will decrease dramatically if you use the block button for people that are never going to be your type. I only get maybe three-six messages a day and of those two are usually continued conversations, one might be a new intriguing message and then the other three are instant block people (A.k.a. people who think “I’d lik u to sit on ma face” is an appropriate first message, and have an enemy rating so high you wonder if they are trying to be unlikable.)
Lanie says
OK, here’s my take on the situation,
Dating online works. You gotta look at it in a freakonomics style! And it seems every man on my dating website has read the darn book, so you guys might be able to relate to this and ladies, listen up, it works!
There are a given number of possibilites out there in the world for you. You date online, and you expand your possibilities for meeting a match. But as there are a lots of frogs in the real world, there are a lot of cyber frogs as well. So, if you get hundreds of responses as a woman, you’ve got to cull through the bogs to get to the 3-5% that are worth responding to. Then of that 3-5%, the rate of success may only be 1. BUT 1 is all you need!! So, to answer teh rate of return for guys: if the standard guy puts out 50 fishing nets for a fish and he gets a couple responses back, that falls in line with our response rate as women!
As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, let’s be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others. When you’ve picked a handful of ones that look most promising, take the time to really read their profiles and be honest with yourself!!
My friends and I have foudn this process works pretty well and quickly!
Good luck
Happy Matching!
hunter says
I heard, there are only, three dating sites, that have the most people on it. I believe it was match, american singles, and Yahoo. Even then, the ratio, if you are in your 20’s, is not good for men, but, I was told, it increases if you are looking for a mature woman….
Collins says
Online dating does work for some people; for others it doesn’t. The ladies have the advantage here because they get a flood of msgs from guys within minutes of posting their profiles. We guys, on the other hand, get very few responses to our profiles other than form letters from girls who look like porn stars & are most likely spammers. Just like, during sex, millions of sperm race toward one egg–so too in online dating, hundreds of us men compete for the attention of one woman, so our prospects of ever getting a reply, much less a date, are bleak. Thus I believe that online dating works better for women than for men.
Megan says
We, Women receive many msg but when we get to meet the men, they act like they like you and then never call you afrer, they are looking for beautiful, even though they are ugly, looser etc. if you are skinny, very pretty or petit you have better As a woman. And thus is my experience and my friend’s.
steve says
Don’t kid yourself. Women are worse. You have to be 5’11” or wealthy, etc. Please. At least a woman can lose weight as opposed to a guy getting taker.
lisalin says
Megan is spot on. Most men won’t wait around for a woman to lose even 5-10 lbs not to mention the creepers who are only looking for someone 15-20+ yrs younger than themselves.
Personally, at 5’4″, I prefer my mate not to be over 5’9″. As for wealth, I just expect him to have a job, any job, consistently, which I think is reasonable considering I have had a job since I was 14 except when in college full time (and still often employed part time then).
Dan says
News flash, all men are seeking younger women, not just creeps. Secondly online dating is a complete waste of time due mainly to the attitude that women bring to the table.And that attitude is that if they are not immediately overwhelmed by unbridled passion at the first sight of their lover to be, they are not going to bother replying to anything the man says to them.I would say there is less than a 1 in 1000 chance of a woman replying to any given message sent to them, even if they are all immaculately worded and peer reviewed for flaws and shortcomings.
Online dating is a lost cause, and I would say to anybody considering it “DONT BOTHER!”
Evan Marc Katz says
Dan ignores that one third of marriages start online and that the average response rate for men is closer to 15%, not 1/1000. Looks like someone is not very effective using the same medium that works for millions of others.
hunter says
dan, men seek younger, not only for the mere fact, also, because one has a better chance of getting a date, mature women no longer have hormones, and are very hard to get going again…
Jennifer says
Dan, responding to your comment about 1/3 of marriages start online. Do you have the statistics of how many of those marriages ended in divorce? I know 5 out of 5 people who met someone online, married them and then divorced. Not really liking those odds.
Jennifer says
Evan, responding to your comment about 1/3 of marriages start online. Do you have the statistics of how many of those marriages ended in divorce? I know 5 out of 5 people who met someone online, married them and then divorced. Not really liking those odds.
Evan Marc Katz says
Perfect example of how your small sample says nothing about the larger population. Click here.
hey there says
Just because a woman gets a bunch of messages does not mean it’s easier. I tried online, and yes I get many initial messages- so? It’s all about numbers hey? I’m an attractive professional with a good career. So yes, I get a lot of attention, but from men completely incompatible either severely older or younger, do not take care of themselves one bit, etc… Out of say 20 emails, 5 seem like nice guys and 5 others barely have anything in their profile and the remaining 10 only write ” you’re hot”. I reply to those first 5 ask the other 5 if they can provide a bit more info on their profile.
Only 2-4 will respond, and in a few days either the emailing fades off to nothing or they keep on writing and never ask to meet. When I ask, they disappear. Very rarely do I finally meet someone in person.
Oh, and it’s a 1 in 20 chance a guy I first contact responds.
Interested says
I am a woman who has tried on line dating. I get many messages. I have been on very few dates. I am very nervous about meeting strangers from the Internet. I am not afraid per se. I just find the whole experience nerve wracking. I also have a very hard time as a female revealing my age on the Internet for personal and career reasons. When I posted my actual age, I got no responses from men in my actual age range. They were all much too old (physically, stage of life, health wise) or much too young (looking for “Mrs. Robinson” or a “cougar”). I got much more realistic responses when I “lied” about my age. Where else but on the Internet does a grown man ask a woman her age? I post current photos and I look good. This dilemma makes me anxious. I get quizzed on the phone, quizzed on the date, I get very nervous and cannot be myself. I really don’t care how old the man is. If they put up a current photo of themselves and write a profile that is of interest to me , I will reply. I think the best model would be “what are you searching for”. It is very strange to declare your age on the Internet. It is confidential information. I never ask a person their age when I first meet them. I can tell by being near them if they seem too immature or too retiring for me. I don’t ask them how much money they make and I don’t ask them how much rent they pay. Or what property they own. They can volunteer that information if they see fit, and, as men, that is usually something they like to talk about, so I don’t even have to ask. I am more interested in their marital status, whether they have or want children, their spiritual beliefs, their intellectual and cultural interests, their sense of humor, good hygiene (some don’t make that grade!) Most men (and women) who I meet never guess my age. I look much younger than my years and take great care of myself. The only person I tell is my physician. He has to know.
I have found on line dating to be stressful. I started doing it because I was alone for so long I just wanted to go out and hoped I would meet at least a new friend. I am not comfortable revealing my age for all to see. And the men seem genuinely horrified that I have “lied” and am really so “old”. Honestly, you would have thought I just revealed that I lied about my marital status or drug addiction or something much more significant. It doesn’t matter. They have come to the conclusion that I am a “liar”. (It is very easy to search someone’s age on the Internet. I never do. Men seem obsessed with this.) And on this particular website the men don’t even have a “married” or “single” category. Just “man”. Whereas the women have to make a selection for marital status. What’s up with that?
My in box is flooded with messages. Then I get loads of “correspondence”. Then a few phone calls. Then perhaps a date. I have had men promise to call me back that never did. Broken dates at the last minute. Dates where the guy was way too forward. I come home very stressed out. I am so glad for the people that have luck with this. I am not one of them.
hunter says
..the first 3 dates can be anxiety filled…
WeshWesh says
No disrespect to 40 somethings, but has it EVER occured to you that some men would like to be able to start families some day and that women do have an age limit when it comes to having children?
I’m a man in my mid thirties and the only women I’ve “met” online who seem genuine about wanting to meet rather than chat online forever, are like in their mid forties. Yes, some of them ladies are very attractive, often more interesting to talk to as well, so if you’re a guy who doesn’t want kids I guess that’s fine, but there’s no excuse to mislead men who actually have hopes in online dating, no matter how good you look.
Talking about liars, I just got told by a girl she “wasn’t ready to start a relationship even though she thought she was” and cancelled our first date two days prior after like 30 pages of messages on that site and hours of phone conversations. If that won’t make one write off online dating FOREVER, I don’t know what will! I’m OUT!
Kyra says
This is what’s so frustrating about the man/female dynamic in dating.
In their 30s a majority of women are looking to settle down and have a relationship that leads to marriage and family. In their 30s a majority of men are looking to “have fun” and “keep it casual” and “not looking for anything serious.
In their 40s a majority of men are ready to settle down and have a family. In their 40s a majority of women are then deemed “too old” to be considered to have a family, which is frustrting because she spent her entire 30s looking for a man who’d want to settle down.
So, when women are in their 30s, they’re too serious for men.When they’re in their 40s, they’re too old. Seems we can’t when either way.
I just turned 40 and have met nothing but “let’s just have fun and chill and have sex and be friends and be cool and casual” men for ten years. Now, I”m considered too old to be considered for anything other than “let’s just have fun and chill and have sex and be friends and be cool and casual.” I even had to have a surgery and decide if I wanted to keep the ability to have kids a few years ago. I decided to keep the ability because I hoped I’d meet someone.
Still met no one.
The “I’m too young to settle down” with the “Now, you’re too old for me to settle down with” will keep a woman single forever.
Karmic Equation says
If what you say is true for most women…then women in their 30s need to seriously consider dating men in their 40s since both genders are at the same life stage at that time.
I don’t think a 10 year age gap is bad, if the male is the older one in the relationship.
Christine says
There might be something to that Karmic. I’m in my mid-30s and my boyfriend is in his early 40s. It’s the most stable and fulfilling relationship I’ve ever had, in large part because we’re in the same place in life and want the same things. Actually, a lot of times I even forget about our six year age gap and it feels more like dating a peer.
Kyra, I’m just wondering, what age range are you looking at? Perhaps try older men, who won’t see 40 as “old”? I have personally found that in general, men are looking down at younger age ranges. Most of my 30-something peers were either looking for something casual, or were looking for women in their 20s. I had more success when I took a serious look at the age range above me, at men who saw me as “young”! Maybe you might have to do the same thing and increase the upper limit of your age range too. And that doesn’t have to be a terrible thing either–there are attractive men in all age ranges (besides my boyfriend and his adorable dimples, I also found a lot of other attractive older men online too).
lisalin says
Kyra – I agree. When I left my first (abusive) marriage with no children in my early thirties and was hit on my men in their 40’s all I could think was ewww. To make matters worse, they all seemed to think a relationship was a women to work AND do all of the cooking and cleaning, i.e. a mommy, no thank you. That group of single men is still out there!! No surprise. Eventually, I stumbled into a relationship with someone in his 20’s and we were married for a few years (in the end, he also wanted a mommy to pay the bills and do everything else) from which I have my child at least.
Online dating has not been too fruitful for me since then. Too many babies who: just want to play or want a woman with income and to act as housemaid.
One of my last experiences was as WeshWesh described above, hours of talking (he was a salesman, so no real surprise) and when I finally met him it was not even possible to correlate the person in front of me with the one I had been talking to, so that was all pointless. Now if I am curious about someone, they have to be local and I don’t waste time with a lot of back and forth. Just set up a coffee date and find out quickly whether they are for real. But for right now – it’s time for a long break!!
inconigto says
Anyone… at any-age can have children. It a fact that more young woman today then ever because of infertility complications use insemination to implantation to fetal development to childbirth. No age requirements.
Buck25 says
“I got more realistic responses when I lied about my age”
Hmmm, more realistic, or more what you wanted?
“It is very easy to search someone’s age on the internet. I never do. Men seem obsessed with this.”
And most women, of course, would never do this, right? I mean, certainly not women in their fifties and beyond? Uh-huh. I’m 68 and I refuse to lie about it. I’m sure I’d get more profile views, if I shaved off a few years; I have no problem in the real world getting dates with women in my age range (roughly 50 to 70- it’s flexible). So why won’t I lie, just a little, to get them to at least take a look? Simple. If a woman’s heart and mind are so small and narrow that she ignores a man strictly because of a number, especially when we’re both past the breeding and child-rearing stage of life, then to me, she frankly isn’t worth the sacrifice of my integrity to begin with.
I’m taking a break right now, but when I resume dating, you had better believe it’ll be in the real world first, and online second (if at all). I’m not stupid enough to make myself solely dependent on the vagaries of an age and photo driven catalog shopping marketplace that tends to deny a man my age (and older women as well, BTW) a real opportunity to showcase the best they have to offer (it’s a little hard to do that, if your profile never gets read).
Incidentally, I have one question for all the 50 and up ladies here; if confidence and character are the things that really attract you to a man, just how is it you can discern those from a photo and an age, without even reading a profile? I ask, because many of you act online as if you think you can do just that, and I’m frankly curious as to how you manage such a (to me, anyway) seemingly magical feat. There’s no intent here to try to change your preferences, just to make you think a bit.
Willjayb says
Interested ~ I love and admire your courage and honesty. Love you! Number one rule in my book. No lies. We cannot build a foundation on untruths. You are not the most mature (age) online nor the youngest. This is a red flag. I always feel that a man with personality does not need to chat with questions that is a red flag and would annoy me as well. Don’t trade down! If you have a type stop! Also, be mysterious, fun, take control and be aggressive! Get what you want! This is your time and you can have anything you want, you just make sure you never deny yourself what you deserve. I would squish you if I could. Love and Light!
WJB
Sarah Lund says
Sorry, but it’s as if you refuse to believe a beautiful-looking woman would possibly want you. I think this is also why it can go wrong. You could have bagged yourself a true stunner, there. Ha ha. People’s judgements can be so clouded or restrained, that they end up having sometimes, wrong judgements about a person. Just because they’re physically attractive, it doesn’t mean they don’t want you. Maybe your self-confidence is low. Why do people only settle for less, every time? Sitting there, complaining about it, won’t change a thing. You have to be practical about it. Go for the jugular. Sooner rather than later..
hunter says
to collins,
smart, intelligent women select with their ears,,,,,,,,, it is in the wording, your profile has to say, what a woman needs to hear……
JerryC says
Why Internet Porn is better than Internet Dating…
Internet Dating: 90 percent of women on it are dogs
Internet Porn: 90 percent of women on it are hot
Internet Dating: Takes lots of time, little payoff
Internet Porn: Takes little time, big payoff
Internet Dating: Identifying multiple personality factors that ensure compatibility
Internet Porn: Big tits/hot body = compatibility
Internet Dating: To find that special someone who will love you for being you
Internet Porn: To never worry about that special someone turning your life into a living nightmare
Internet Dating: Waiting days or weeks to see if she’ll return your e-mails
Internet Porn: Waiting seconds to download pics from “Hootersland.com”
Internet Dating: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again
Internet Porn: You’ll never have to go to a singles bar again
Darren says
This might be sad, but unfortunatly is very true.
CS says
hahaha…this is so funny ! but this will lead to loneliness for life… porn stars doesn’t truly care for you but at least internet dating you might strike something good in the end, a life partner that truly cares for you … but love the way you put it… Internet Dating versus Internet Porn….. hahaha
Ruby says
Hmmm. Online dating doesn’t work for average looking women over 30. I tried it for a year and only attracted men who seemed resentful that I was ‘all they could get’ and seemed to expect sex as some sort of ‘pay off’ for spending an afternoon with me. I entered into the experience with an open mind, viewing online dating as an opportunity to meet men outside work and my social circle, and was looking for friendship first, with the possibility of a relationship if we clicked. I’m trendy, well-groomed but average looking, and I’m very slim but petite (5ft). Suspecting I’m no man’s fantasy woman, I posted my same written profile with taller vital stats and a prettier girl’s photo – yep, approaches went through the roof. I know I should have expected more ‘success’ as a sweet leggy lady anyway, but that’s when I decided to leave online dating.
JohnG says
Yes, you are absolutely right, Ruby. And this is even true with men:
Just for fun, I have tried a variety of things with my profile description, from a very thought description that tries to give women an idea of who I really am to simply saying, “Please ask and I will tell you.”
And how did my responnse rate change based on this? Not at all. In fact, I could litterally put any type of description in my profile, and the only thing that seems to make any difference is the picture I post.
We all have unflattering photos of ourselves, and when I post these, no one flirts, winks or responds to my e-mails (I don’t send the winks and flirts.) But when I post a “good” picture of me, I get a fair number of all of the above.
And, of course, this is just human nature, and we all do it. But I had really hoped to find the real deal who would like me for who I am and who would still love me when I’m 64, but I don’t think I will ever be able to find that on an internet dating site.
avery_t says
I have tinkered with my profile too. The only real impact has come from altering my height and income. The taller I “am” (or list myself as being), the more replies I get. The higher my income, the more replies I get. Same photos. In part, this may be because women in my area (NYC) tend to set the search parameters as
5′ 10″ and up
150k +
When I list as 5′ 9″ and leave my income field empty, I get no views.
When I list as 5′ 11″ and leave my income field empty, I get some views.
When I list as 5 ‘9″ with an income 250-500k, I get a lot of views and some good messages.
When I list as 5′ 11″ with an income of 250-500k, I get a lot of views and a many, many messages (some of which are good, some of which are hate mail, and some of which ask if my profile is real).
In reality, I am 5’ 8″ with a high income.
JB says
Well Avery you’ve just proved what I found out last year by “tinkering” (but really already knew). When you’re 5’11” or taller and make 100K a year or MORE of course. You have much more value to women. Obviously the taller you are and the more you make your value increases. You really want to get crazy? Throw in a Masters or PhD….LOL I really don’t think we need to do a study to find out women prefer tall wealthy educated men over the opposite.
ginger says
Really? Guess I never messaged you. Guess your type just doesn’t stick around. Or you get my messages and ignore them. This is why online dating sites don’t work.
Matt says
Honestly umm.. I’m generally very attracted to women with your stats 😛 The problem with online dating, from a man’s perspective, is honestly… I don’t get replies from women that are most definitely in my league. I’m 6’3″ and overweight but not a slob… I lift weights and stay fairly presentable. I present myself very accurately online.. I do not get messages.. the 1 message I might see over 2 months will be from the absolute bottom end… basketball-figure, no car, no job, no social skills. This is not an exaggeration either.
Tom says
My experience is the same as Matt’s. I have had success at school, bars, and party’s connecting with girls that are “in my league”. However, when using online dating sites, I don’t get any replies back from these exact same type of girls. Suddenly I’m the elephant man? I pick up girls in real life that are cute, not models, but they’re definitely good looking. I can’t even get an average looking girl to simply reply back to a basic message online. Something’s off. I’m a good looking guy with a very strong income for my area. Changing my profile around does nothing. Most women I see put hardly any effort into theirs. Since I still meet girls out and about I only use online dating as another way to meet people. Thank goodness, as I’ve still yet to meet anyone who’m I’ve contacted through online dating sites.
brian says
been their done that. 1 year online dating nothing. the online date site says be patience. I had 1 date at a coffee/diner rest. she freaked out that I showed up in clean 59 ford truck 4×4. I’m sorry I don’t drive a new a vehicle. I’m just a working middle class guy. earning a scratch. well back too online dating again
Interested says
Hi Tom –
Just so you know, most attractive women on the Internet get LOTS of messages. I was getting so many messages from so many men, reading their profiles, seeing what matched for ME. A lot of the women are looking for something in particular. If you say you pick up attractive girls while you are out, consider this: MOST women can pick up guys all the time. They do not need to go on the Internet to do it. They are looking for something that is right for THEM, not that is right for YOU.
It is not a pick up site. It is a dating website. If you read the profiles you will probably see that most of the women are looking for a friend for a relationship. Not a pick up. And the truth is, Tom, MOST women do get MANY messages. If the in person thing is working for you, I would just stick with that. I tried Internet dating (I am a woman) because I was having no luck in person lately. I had no luck on the Internet either. I am really looking to meet a serious partner.
The only advice I can give you is if you DO leave messages, try to make it pertinent to some content of what is in the woman’s profile, to show that you read it and that you are interested. And if you read it and you are not all that interested, then what difference does it make if she replies or not?
I prefer the old fashioned way of doing things and you are lucky if you are meeting lots of girls while you are out socializing and so on. It’s great! Don’t sweat over the Internet. It’s not the end of the world.
hunter says
…hi interested,
If most attractive women can find a man without going on the internet, then , why, don’t they, instead of staying home eating ice cream?..
Lisa says
The problem is a numbers game. If you ever have an interest set up a profile as a woman. One you would email and then just sit back and see what happens and you will understand. Want to really get a feel? Post a picture of a very attractive female and pretend to be her. See how many emails you get in an hour and see how horrible some of them are. Then you will understand this is not about you at all. We get bombarded with emails even what you call average looking girls and the hot ones well it’s nuts. So what happens at a certain point is we just start looking at pictures because that’s the easiest way to sort through 65 emails. It’s not the best way of course and many men take poor pictures or are the type of men like you who if I met in person I’d probably really like but you are getting lost in the shuffle. And while I really want to and at first tried to send a no thank you to every guy that emailed me it was just too much and I found that it prompted an increase of nasty follow ups from men wanting to know why I was rejecting them or why no one liked them or why I was being such a well you put the nasty word in there. So trust me it’s not you at all! And I’m sorry.
satafa says
me too am yet to meet someone
Willowandy says
Find me an average looking woman between 30 and 40, who is caring, not superficial, has a little bit between her ears and has the patience to want to spend time getting to know somebody for a serious relationship and you’ll make my day.
I look for them, but don’t seem to find that many. I guess it is the story about the parking spaces 🙂 .
hunter says
willowandy,
drop the little bit between the ears, and patience to want to spend time….and you will find herds of women…
Mag says
It’s me
Willjayb says
Confidence!!!! Lol. I am 44 and I look like Denzel Washington on Tuesday’s and Thursday’s! Your beauty isn’t defined by what you think it is or what society portraits it to be. Your beauty is your confidence even if you only have 8 toes! Well dammit those are the 8 most beautiful toes and if you don’t like find the other missing two and suck on em. I don’t care about a few extras or if you are petite. Do you define WOMAN! I should make you feel sexy and vice versa, if you are not highly sexual then be honest about it.
Dom says
Are you just chasing 6 footers? If yes, they enjoy a wide verity of women.
Your height isn’t your issue. But you might find, despite who will argue it here, that other women openly shame men for being attracted to a 5ft tall, slim woman. If you ever do nail down a hot guy, other women will not only gossip about him like he’s a sexual predator, but also about you because you’re a small, possible younger woman with a great guy.
Men wanting statuesque “playboy models” is a myth from the 70s.
dadshouse says
In the past 8 years, I’ve done plenty of online dating, enough that I’m considered an internet dating expert. My conclusion? It doesn’t work. As I’ve said in my blog, chemistry is felt, not articulated in checkboxes and online prose. Plus, expectations are too high going into an online date. You meet under the pretense that the other person might be “the one”. When they aren’t, you fell deflated. But a good date should make you feel the opposite – elated about the potential and possibility!
The best way to meet people to date is through friends – BBQs, parties, clubs, social groups. The common bond is a great starting point. What do you have in common with someone else who online dates – you both subscribed to the same service?
Meesterjohn says
Agreed. Though what if, like myself, you have moved to an area far away from family and friends. I do not dance (2 left feet is an understatement) so clubs are out. Sans friends there are no party invites.
Any bar I have found in the area is filled with married couples or people 20-30 years older than me.
Where do I then go to get a jumping off point? Online I’m ultimately looking for love but would be thrilled just to meet someone who is willing to get me out the house and into the world for a time. Sadly I have hundreds of emails sent with ZERO replies. I am told I am a good looking man and have attractive eyes. I assume my 5’7 stature is a negative but most women I post to list 5’5 or 5’6 as being acceptable….
Where do you go when you can’t find a real-world option?
JB says
Like a lot of people I’ve been internet dating since the dawn of the internet back when the sites were free….ie: Early “Webpersonals” was one of the first as was “American Singles” and even Yahoo personals was originally free. I’ll even go back further than that, before the internet we were using photoless newspaper personals with voice mail and sending letters and photo’s by snail mail…lol(quite the chore mind you back in 1989)
To answer the question “Does online dating work ?” The answer to that is an opinion ….but is it really ? If you go just by the numbers like what percentage of people actually make it to a “phone conversation” or a “coffee date” or a “5th date” or the unimaginable “I think it’s time we take our profiles down and only see each other”….lol let alone marriage. I think the numbers would show you’ve got a better chance of being struck by lightening on a sunny day than meeting your “soulmate”….lol That being said …can you meet people you wouldn’t normally meet and have some fun as well as a pile of frustration & aggravation thrown in for good measure. ABSOLUTELY !!
Will women get more dates and spend less money ? ABSOLUTELY !!
Will most men never get a response let alone a date ? ABSOLUTELY !!
Does online dating work ?? ABSOLUTELY !! for the people that are making millions running the sites as well as the very few people who meet someone and “hit it off” for ANY period of time.
I think Evan should write the definitive book on online dating and how it’s changed the landscape of dating & relationships in modern society.
IE: Women no longer have to leave the house and they can have 10 dates a week. They control pretty much every interaction online and the pace etc… They have so many options it even boggles their own minds to the point they get addicted to getting emailed everyday by idiots telling them “you’re hot”. Single moms who have no time to date or go out now have plenty of male companionship and interaction etc…
Women no longer have to go to a bar or singles event and wait to be approached by guys they don’t like. They can put up their blury picture from 5 yrs and 30 lbs ago and get tons of meaningless attention as well as deicde who they interact with and for how long…(usually 2 or 3 emails..lol) You get the drift as I’m rambling here. I’d be happy to co-author Evan. Let’s do it ! Unless it’s already been written and I have’nt found it ????
Interested says
This is kind of funny, but also kind of sad. I split up with my ex boyfriend (who turned out to be too insane and not nice) over 3 years ago. After crying myself to sleep for months, I decided to get myself in gear and go out. I got on the Internet. I could not even get a coffee date. So I took myself out. To dinner. To the beach. To the park. For coffee. To the gym. To nightclubs. To concerts. To everywhere I was invited. I usually went by myself. I almost always paid for myself. Sometimes I paid for my friends. I am beautiful, kind and smart. I have never been married. I have a few nice male friends I know from the YMCA (I swim almost everyday and am in great shape, all natural, attractive features.)
I commented earlier about how nervous I am about Internet dating. It has been a real mixed bag for me. But it was the first time in 3 years that a man actually took me out to dinner. Before that I went out with my girlfriends or simply dined alone.
It was so stressful after the meal the man practically pounced on me. I was courteous, thanked him and said good night.
Yeah, Internet dating is a gold mine for women.
Interested says
And by the way, I am not a single Mom either.
Mike says
Wish I’d met you, you would’ve had a much different experience going out with me. Too many creeps on these sites ruin it for the good ones. :-/
My only reason for being on the two major sites (match and eharmony) are to find a lasting relationship. It’s right there in the profile. Nothing needy, nothing rushed, but that is surely my goal at any rate. I’m attractive, make a pretty good living, friendly, funny, loyal as hell, and want nothing more than to be happy and content with someone special (and get the hell of the sites). I seem to be what a lot of women are looking for, at least as stated in their profiles. I get almost no replies after sending some pretty decent emails using some of the stuff that they wrote, so no “ur hot” crap from me. And… nothing, most of the time.
Why is this so stupidly hard??
dadshouse says
I’ve thought about this some more – turns out the online dating service sector is nearly a billion dollar a year industry. There’s money to be made by people who promote. Last I checked, the “online dating doesn’t work” industry isn’t quite so lucrative…
vino says
My not-so-scientific conclusions for the women 25-40 range. I’ve done match. Criteria – body type is slender, athletic or average. All other criteria open. I won’t look at the rest.
70% Single mothers – out. I’m not dating single mothers.
Remaining 30% – Here’s where it gets funny.
Weed out the ones who are ugly, or who are lying ( ie – ‘athletic’ means 5’6″ and could play linebacker for the 49ers). – 60% of the remaining 30%, so 12% of the available candidates are left.
Of the remaining 12% – start weeding out the non-compatible things. I love the 5’5″ girls who want guys 6’2″ & up. Smokers, out. Weed out the women who expect they guy earn 2-3x more than they (you know, the teachers who want their date to make $150k +), weed out the attention whores who have their bikini pictures on there (good to look at, bad to date) or multiple pictures of dresses showing tons of cleavage. Very subtle. (and yet, they complain when we look…)
Further weed out the ones of pictures with professional athletes & actors (high mileage, VERY high mileage).
Weed out the plastic queens – the black eyebrows and unnaturally blonde hair, usually accompanied by very tan (real, UV, or spray-on) skin, fake nails, etc…see also attention whores and money hungry above.
Weed out the narcissists – the bodybuilders & fitness competitors, triathletes & every-other-weekend-is-a-race types. They’re addicts, maybe not of booze or drugs, but that same addicitive behavior is turned to fitness, etc. (Don’t get me wrong – I love working out & do it often, just not as a 2nd job. I also like to eat fun stuff, not count every calorie & food type)
Once you slog through that remaining 12% there’s little else left. The reality is that good, attractive, emotionally & physically healthy women don’t need to use an online service. It comes to them. It simply isn’t worth the time effort & expense to sort through all of this, if you’re a guy.
My 2 cents.
Lea says
Vino is absolutely right, good, attractive physically fit women or men are not dating on line as they usually have a life!
Lisa says
This is a common misconception. Good attractive physically fit women, at least in the upper tier of attractiveness are more often than not sitting at home alone on date nights. Why you ask? Two reasons. Most men are afraid to approach them as they find them to be intimidating and so they don’t get asked out. The men that do have the courage to ask them out tend to be narcissts and jerks and so they end up in unhealthy relationships, and alone. The reason that most men don’t get a response is because they are seeking out the top percent of women as far as looks go online and so is everyone else. I suggest this to men, look on women that are not 8s and 10s and you will have a better shot. And only email women that you would actually approach in person.
hunter says
lisa, the third reason why women stay home, they have become manhaters..
Andrew says
As much as my experiences (as a man) have thus far been very strange and disappointing, and as much as I wish I could justify giving up to myself, I am going to politely disagree. I have met a number of very desirable women. Granted, none of these situations has worked out and I would concede that I think that each of these attractive and successful women have unrealistic expectations. But my anecdotal experience is that they are out there, even if the ones with their heads screwed halfway normal are few and far between.
But, as the guy who writes this blog says, it only takes one.
Reality Check says
I understand that people who are not parents would not want to put up with someone else’s kids in theory. Yet I married a man who had children from a previous marriage, and a previous relationship. I accepted his “baggage” because at the time I loved him. And that was not what split us up, either.
For all you childless people counting out dating a parent, you are doing yourself a tremendous disservice. You may grow to love and appreciate another person’s child! I know I did.
I myself do not like to date men who have no children–they often have childish, selfish attitudes and are emotionally stunted and irresponsible–but I make exceptions for those that may be good.
You should do likewise, if you really want to find a relationship.
Buck25 says
“For all you childless people counting out dating a parent, you are doing yourself a tremendous disservice. You may grow to love and appreciate someone else’s child! I know I did.”
Reality Check,
I totally co-sign on that one. I have two biological children (one now deceased). I have three other great kids I love just as much, who would never have been a part of my life, if I hadn’t been willing to date and eventually marry their mother. Did they come with some headaches? You bet! Worth it, for the experience I shared with them as a sort of “second dad” ? Absolutely!There might be some things I’d change about my second and third marriages. That’s NOT one of them!
Christopher Fuehring says
36 years old, single for over 10 years. Live in the middle of nowhere working on a farm. I only look for women with kids.
Willowandy says
Agree with you about people who are very picky about height and income.
I don’t see the problem with somebody having a child though – why?
(Same question to women, as quite a few rule out single dads.)
I do not have children, but I am going to see a single parent this weekend, she came across as very intelligent, unpretentious and fairly serious about relationships.
hunter says
willowandy,
good luck with that single parent!!
Lisa says
As far as the child thing I think it depends on your age range. If you are in your mid to late 30s and beyond I think it is unreasonable to disregard all the people that have children. However, the reason people do is that they are not ready for the responsibility of a family, they do not want an insta family. If this is the case then they should not seek out single parents, it is unfair for them to do so. If you are single and childness it is a total different lifestyle to date a single parent. I can pick up and fly to LA or another country at the drop of a hat, a parent could not do that. I have a lot more free time than a parent does to date as well. I understand the preference.
vino says
Ugh. Here’s a fun little profile. 38 Y.O., no kids. Attractive pictures, though, including boob job.
“I am a romantic, someone who believes Prince Charming still exists.”
Translation – I am a princess who doesn’t like reality as it applies between men & women.
“First impressions count! It is a must for me to feel chemistry!”
Translation – YOU better be hot, because even though I am 38 years old and 8+ years past my best looking days, I have fake boobs & botox. Therefore I am hot.
“I am searching for a partner that does not shy away from commitment.”
Translation – I am seeking someone who is blind, deaf & dumb to relationships, and would jump off a bridge willingly. I also think men a puerile who won’t grow up & commit to a woman, ignoring my responsibility in choosing men who won’t commit.
“Creative, independent, professional, sophisticated, and articulate female seeking a gentleman, who is: charming, romantic, refined, thoughtful, spontaneous and determined to find their soul-mate.”
Translation – Self-absorbed, over-estimated self, seeks sucker out of bad romance novel who as a ‘gentleman’ is willing to pay for everything.
Oh, I didn’t mention she had her date needs to make $150k +. Her income info is blank, but she does mention being self-employed.
At least she didn’t have cats.
starthrower68 says
If that’s the prevailing attitude, I’ll stick with the cats and be happy with no date. I’m sure a Golden Girls scenario in my later years will be preferable to some resentful guy who felt he had to settle.
Rachel says
Notice the double standard? If a woman wants a high income bracket she’s a gold digger. I say if a man will only date bikini models that makes him a “meat inspector.” Every good meat inspector needs a good gold digger to appreciate his assets.
I have a disability that keeps me from working full-time. That makes dating a pain online and off. Online I look for lower income guys–deliberately. I also look for unmarried Christian men (I’m Christian) who are within 10-15 years of my age.
I am very open when it comes to looks, but I prefer intelligent men who are marriage minded, but don’t want to become formally engaged within 2 months of dating! That’s a little too fast.
That’s my criteria. I don’t think it’s terribly picky or superficial.
It would be nice if I could find someone who lived within a 50 mile radius too with the price of gas going up.
Btw, I like cats, but can’t own one because of a pet songbird I own.
The town I live in doesn’t seem to attract many single men.
cinnamon says
I’ve never tried on-line dating and I guess I’m not planning to do it in the nearest future. Here are just a few of my reservations:
1. Essentially, I do not see myself using a supermarket approach to address an issue of a pretty existential nature. I think the below quote from one of the posters is a good illustration of what I mean by supermarket approach:
„As for women weeding through the hundreds of ads quickly, let’s be honest, go for the ones that are aesthetically pleasing to YOUR eye, keep a list of possible secondary ones and then discard the others.”
2. Then, there is an issue of how you perceive your, so called, private sphere. I do not see myself placing a photo (not to mention a photo showing the cleavage) and a lot of personal info on a public website where it can be viewed by basically everyone. (I guess people differ very much in what they perceive as a part of their private sphere as opposed to public sphere.)
3. I would be afraid that men who set themselves an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A GIRLFRIEND would want such a relationship to progress too quickly than what I would find comfortable.
4. I would NOT set myself an OBJECTIVE TO FIND A BOYFRIEND. Well, I do not believe that a soulmate might drop out of the sky, but I do believe that sometimes we just come to a realization that this someone who is around makes so much difference that you just cannot imagine the world without them.
Besides, a value a good story 🙂 So to a question “So, how you guys met?” I don’t want to answer “On match.com”
Evan Marc Katz says
I normally don’t do this, but I can’t help myself.
Cinnamon:
1) If you’re meeting tons of great guys to date in real life, good for you! You don’t need online dating. However, if you aren’t dating lots and are wondering why your love life is dry, you’re spiting yourself by not going online.
2) See #1. Wanting to have a love life without making an effort to achieve it is empty. Wanting to date online and worrying about anonymity is similar. It’s like wanting to be an Olympic swimmer without getting wet. Hey, if you’re a politician or celebrity, I can see why you’d want to stay anonymous. But if you’re concerned about what others would think – uh – everyone else there is dating online, too. No shame in that.
3) You’re assuming that every guy who dates online is the same. I couldn’t imagine a more faulty assumption.
4) It’s great to be a happy and healthy single. It’s counterintuitive to think “your prince will come” when he has no idea where to meet you. Online dating is the most obvious spot to meet likeminded single people. But hey, go try the gym and let me know how it goes.
And to your last point: Yeah, the hundreds of thousands of happy couples who met online are really crying that they don’t have a better story to tell at parties.
I thank you, Cinnamon, for providing a valuable service to all the people out there who think like you do. Until you challenge your preconceived notions of how things are (Online dating is weird, it’s for losers, it’s for desperate people, love will find you when you least expect it), you’re doomed to the same results you’ve already been getting.
Warmest wishes – with love.
Evan
Angela says
Evan,
After so many years of online dating yourself, you met your future wife not online, but at a party. Isn’t that correct?
Evan Marc Katz says
Yes, but that’s not because online dating doesn’t work. 1/3 of marriages begin online. I didn’t meet my wife on Match because I wasn’t looking for an older woman and she wasn’t looking for a Jewish man. It was our BIASES that were the problem, not online dating itself.
Buck25 says
Evan,
Here I have one question; did the online environment make it feel easier or harder (when you were doing it, not in hindsight) for you and your now-wife to indulge those very biases while still getting at least a satisfactory number of dates?
Evan Marc Katz says
Neither my wife nor I had any trouble procuring online dates within our (too narrow parameters). But then, we were semi-attractive, educated people in our mid-30’s in Los Angeles. It is somewhat like shooting a fish in a barrel. Problem was that I was shooting in the wrong barrel.
vino says
More from the files of “What not to write in a first email”
“Funny we both have XXXX XXXXXXXX in our list of books recently read. Love his simple, straightforward advice. What type business are you in?”
Subtle.
huntergreen says
Dating online is beneficial long-term to those to who own and promote the sites, bottom line is money making, not quality. They sell people and the few success stories they have, but no one really knows the statistical outcomes of meeting online. The divorce rate in the US is still very high, even higher for second marriages. We’re still doing something very wrong to have the cornerstone, most important relationship of our adult lives, fail…
I guess if you’re not too busy and don’t mind having to psychoanalyze and background check you’ve got it made. My findings are most people online are not living authentic lives and are not attractive to me. They can sure “sound” like they are, but only after time, sometimes a lot of time, can one see the truth. I want to meet the healthy people who are living good quality lives, and that success, for me personally, only happens in person. Being in communities where people know people helps reduce the amount of sleuthing I have to do. I have found the best quality of people off-line.
To me, doing the online thing takes too long to filter out who the liars are because some people have had lifelong experience at it and can be quite good. Meeting the person in person usually seals the deal or ends it. I am often quite surprised at how carelessly, haphazardly, and cluelessly some people go about this very important process. If they’re a flake at dating, I don’t need any further information!
With the proliferation of spammers, married people, general scum online, I have had much better success online dating in the past than recently. I no bother with online dating sites, I am looking for authentic folks who live the lives they say they do, not those who are online due to boredom, loneliness, lack of social skills, for whom this is merely a game, etc.
Online dating works for some, but for me it is way too much work for something I was paying money for when the quality people don’t seem to be online anyway.
kathleen says
I enjoyed your thoughts and agree. After much consideration as to whether I should try online dating I have decided not too. Being apart of a good community I enjoy the people around me, and they continue to bring the best out of me. I am old fashioned in some respects, and protective of myself, but only because I value me in all my uniqueness & thrive off bringing the best out of others. True love wont drop out of the sky for me. I am 32 self employed designer who pours herself too much into her work. The decision I have made is to make more time for people. To remain open, relaxed and cracking jokes in my usual wacky way without trying to impress or be something I am not. I’m brilliant and I reckon lots of brilliant men are trying online dating right now but I would not wish to set any criteria on a profile or judge a photo in an attempt to find you. I dont want you to be perfect, no one is. If I have to search online for you I fear I would miss you in the confusion of the crowd! Basically Im with you all on this and drinks are on me if you come to my local!
JuJu says
vino,
like attracts like.
That’s all I am gonna say.
Andrew Hunt says
Dating Online is not perfect. But really annoys me is when girls I ask out from dating sites put Online dating down yet they are there to chat to. I use Online Dating as a gateway to meeting someone and arranging to meet up. I can tell you I have had three girlfriends.
All from Plenty Of Fish.com.
The only way I can understand why people try to talk me out of using online dating is because they are so confident that they don’t need online dating to meet someone. But why are they on there then?
It is hypocritical. I am a shy man who just wants to be given a chance and I have met loads of wrong people online. But as I mentioned earlier I have met girls from the net so that is the main reason I keep using Online Dating sites. It isn’t the site’s fault it is the people I choose to talk to. Sorry if it offends anyone but I sometimes don’t get why confident people are online. They are capable enough to meet someone for real in a club or something.
vino says
don’t shoot the messenger juju, just b/c you dislike the message.
more from the what not to write archives of dating…
vino: “thanks for the wink. how is your Tuesday?”
Mz X: “it’s sunny & beautiful out, so it is all good. A little more about me – I’m from the east coast, undergrad in xxx, law school in xxx. I livedin xxx,then I moved here. So what’s your story?”
vino: “A lawyer? My momma told me to stay away from lady lawyers…they were all trouble. 😉 I also hail from the east, lived in xxx for undergrad,then in xxx, now here. I see you like wines. Any particular favorites?”
Mz X: “I like malbecs and since I lived in NZ for awhile, I like pinots too. It’s cool you lived in xxxx. I spent a semester in xxxx. It was lots of fun. So what is it you do?”
mmmm. So subtle. I found this in the email archives. Aside from the fact her pictures sucked (blurry & poorly lit), she’s a lawyer & therefore ‘out.’ Reason – preoccupation with what I do for work. Not one thing about my profile (ie- me) , but made a point tell me 2x she is a lawyer (it’s in her profile too). Essentially, all she did was tell me where she’s lived so that I would give her my resume. blech.
JuJu says
Okay, let me attempt to word this in a way that would likely pass the censorship here: you, vino, complain how all women are just cold-hearted calculating bitches, but did you ever stop to think why a genuinely nice and kind person would want to be with you?
cinnamon says
JuJu,
re: 22
That was below the belt.
vino says
Juju, please read my previous posts. Nowhere have I ever said ‘all’ women are heartless bitches or anything so absolute. If you wish to insult, at least be marginally accurate. By the way, by so insulting without provocation, please consider the possibility you prove my point. Have a nice day.
cinn,
A pleasure seeing you , as always.
JuJu says
All right.
I’ve led the horse to water.
Cilla says
Vino,
I gotta say I’m as cynical and sarcastic as the next person (I even composed a form letter for the many mismatched suitors who flooded my box–e.g. “Clearly, from your photo, you are not 45. I’m not dating Gandalf, Santa, or the guy holding the pitchfork in ‘American Gothic.'” ) But you sound like you have an enormous chip on your shoulder. Not every woman who asks about your profession is a gold digger. For most people it’s just a safe conversation starter. We’ve been warned to stay away from so many hot button issues, it leaves us precious little in the way of innocuous banter. Would you be happier if she asked, “What medications do you take on a regular basis?” or “How often do you change your sheets? or “Where do you stand on a woman’s right to choose?” Sheesh.
vino says
Cilla,
First, I’m reprinting previous things from online dating – where there was an extensive profile indicating local restaurants I like, several recent books read, places I’ve gone, activities I enjoy, funny movies, etc. There are pictures of my dog. There are at least a dozen things to ask about. But what’s the first or second question – “What do you do for work?” Nearly every time. Who cares? I’m not working with them….They care. Blech.
There are several threads on this site on the subject of money & dating, so I won’t rehash those arguments. I’d suggest reading them. One look at match.com that shows how many women expect their ‘dates’ to earn 2x what they earn is nothing short of shocking.
On the subject of safe conversation starters, how hard is it to say, “Oh I see you like wine. Have you been to Napa/Sonoma?” Or “I read Freakanomics too. What was your favorite part? Mine was…?” Or, “Oh, you like hiking? Have you ever been to Yosemite?” I mean, how hard is that really to start a conversation? Answer – it isn’t. So please spare me the criticism for pointing out disingenuous behavior.
Sheesh.
“We’ve been warned to stay away from so many hot button issues, it leaves us precious little in the way of innocuous banter.” What? Victims of not knowing what to say? Puh-lease. Don’t be so obvious is all. You’re still being less-than-open, but it’s easier to tolerate.
“But you sound like you have an enormous chip on your shoulder.” Ah yes, I’m unreasonably angry for pointing out people who clearly don’t care about me, but what I can give or do for them.
“Not every woman who asks about your profession is a gold digger.” – Most are – see articles quoted in other threads.
Oh, and….
“What medications do you take on a regular basis?”
– Aspirin & ibuprofen
“How often do you change your sheets?”
– Where’s the wet spot again? 😉
“Where do you stand on a woman’s right to choose?”
Choose all you want. Just don’t come looking for $ from him because of YOUR choice.
Have a nice evening
Scott says
Well after reading this thread I finally realize I am not the only male who has not had any luck with dating websites. I’ve tried them all from the free ones to E-harmony, and nothing has worked…
I’m a 39 yr old, attractive, educated, active, employed, single dad who doesn’t have time to go all over the place looking for “the one”, so I thought I would try it online. UGH…
Here is what I have discovered, and feel free to comment or correct me if you think I’m wrong…
1. It ALL comes down to the picture. Nothing more, nothing less. If the woman does not find you even semi-attractive, you won’t even get a visit to your profile.
2. IF you get the visit to your profile, it then comes down to the “two” vital stats, height and weight. If you are too short or too tall, too fat or too thin, this is the next eliminating step.
3. IF you make it past 1 and 2, then it comes down to your occupation and how much money you make. No matter how much the woman professes she doesn’t care about money or a job and that she is very independent, she wants a man that can take care of her. If you don’t make the amount she is comfortable with, you’re done.
4. IF you have kids under the age of 18, you’re done at this step. She is single and wants ALL the attention. IF she has kids under the age of 18 and a really good parent, she’s probably not on the dating website to begin with. She is “too busy” to date.
5. If (and only if) you make it past these steps, will she finally read what your profile has to say.
What I don’t get is that most women’s profiles tell you all of the qualities she is looking for in a man and how important they are to her. But none of these qualities are ever the “eliminating ones”. As long as you pass through steps 1 and 5, she would be happy to take a man that blows her off three times for a date, tells her she’s fat, beats on her for fun, and tells her how much he hates her family. And you know what, if he broke it off with her and called her back in a month, she’d be happy to take him back.
Sarah Jo says
Are you f******* serious? What constitutes a good mother is being single until your children are 18? What world do you live in? So say a single mother heaven forbid finds a guy online and falls in love, gets married and the guy becomes the best step parent her child could ever wish for, it’s wrong because she’s a bad mother for meeting online?
gford says
I find that women over 40 isn’t getting any luck because of their age. I’m over 40 with a child under 18 and would love to date. I don’t care about how much a man makes as long as he’s good to me. I would like someone over 5’11 because I’m 5’1. Lol. there’s nothing wrong with a man with a lil weight. They give great hugs. So that’s what I’m looking for and still haven’t found it.
hunter says
…how does a man 5’11” hug a 5′ woman?..by standing on a staircase?…..
Lisa says
My response to you is it depends on what women you are emailing. If you are emailing the top tier of attractive women they everything you typed is correct. Why is that? Because those women are getting bombarded with emails, and have their pick of who they want to go out with. Understand the huge discrepancy between how much correspondence men get versus women. I am your age, and most men in our age range set their age range below their own. So if you are looking for a 30 year old attractive woman, she has her choice and most people are going to take the hottest looking guy, with the least baggage, who is over 6′ tall and skinny. Why because she can. I bet there are a lot of average looking women in your age range that would love to talk to you and whom you would make the cut with, but you are not emailing them. If I am getting over 30 emails a day, like I did when I online dated, yes I am going to look at pictures. I am sorry but I simply don’t have the time to do otherwise, and it is the quickest way to weed men out. I am also going to chose a man without kids over one who has them, because my lifestyle is not such that I want to become a parent.
JuJu says
Scott,
I can’t see what exactly surprises you. Wouldn’t 1 and 2 be the eliminating factors for you as well? 3 is so deeply rooted in our biology and evolution that I don’t know how many generations it will take for the situation to change. I personally know a woman with an exaggerated sense of responsibility (in all areas of life), and she is absolutely unable to accept the man paying for anything at all, but that’s an aberration rather than the norm.
But what I wanted to comment on was 4. I once dated a man with a child from a previous marriage, before I had any preferences on the subject. He had his daughter every weekend. Whatever parties and events I was invited to I had to attend alone. (That particular situation was exacerbated by the fact that on weekdays he worked until 8 or 9 pm.) And sooner or later the question arises: why do I need a boyfriend at all? I felt like I was on my own all the time anyway.
If I have a choice (and I do), why would I agree to the additional liability of someone else’s child? Besides, it’s not like I am asking for anything I cannot offer.
Of course the qualities they list mean “after the basic prerequisites are fulfilled” (most commonly, the physical attraction).
I am sure the process is exactly the same for [many] men. Including your very last point.
Dan Christensen says
I don’t have a clue who you are, what you do, or why you find it necessary to be so confrontational with, essentially, strangers. I won’t speculate or offer any intuitive input. I do think, however, that you are the very woman that these posters have been describing. You make more money than them, you would never “date” them because they don’t fit into your myopic vision and are probably alone and convinced yourself that you “like it that way”. I have no idea why you just can’t go to the store, buy what you need, go home and feed your cat (Disclaimer: I own 8 of them). Let the adults who actually are too busy with real lives to go to bars (not to discount those that don’t drink or smoke) and let us be who we are. Your picture makes me believe that you are under 40 and (I only have anecdotal evidence to back this up) are an ageist. I actually sympathize with your plight (i.e. I still remember being 30) but your interjections, no matter how poignant and verbose add nothing to the dialogue those of us that are trying to improve our lives by finding another human being to connect with on an essentially spiritual level are trying to have. Go back to your room and watch some more True Blood. Peace, out
JuJu says
By the way, as far as the numbers are concerned, you forgot age.
I don’t even answer the e-mails that do not include a picture [in which I can actually see the person] and the vital stats. I can’t afford to.
Gwen says
I agree with you. Don’t argue with misogynists
JB says
Scott, you are right. It all comes down to the picture. For a kick you should find a guy’s pic that’s a “10” put it up on any site and watch how ridiculous all the women act and the crazy things that they say and do….lol
This profile I actually wrote in less than a minute with NO substance on purpose and because he was “hot” every woman “loved his profile”…lol
go figure. Like Evan says it’s human nature. Everyone(men too) thinks they deserve the most attractive people on the site. Even if they’re a “3”.
What it really taught me is that as a guy who’s maybe a “5” or a “6” I basically have very little or NO value online. Even with quality pics I still look like I look …lol I still try though but it’s “just another club in the bag” as far as meeting women. What are gonna do ? Hang out in the supermarket ?? …LOL
Scott says
JuJu,
I hear what you are saying, and NO, I’m not surprised by any of it. I think it just goes to show why internet dating does not really work for most men. Except for Evan (who is probably getting a kickback from a dating service), most of the comments I have read here from men are NOT positive.
I didn’t include or even consider age because when I am looking at a women’s profile it generally indicates what she is looking for as an age range. If I don’t fit in, I don’t initiate a contact.
As women, like you said, you have a choice. You just watch all the emails collect in your inbox. Men, on the other hand don’t have it that way.
Maybe I’m not the “norm” for guys but I’d like to think there are a lot of men out there like me. When I do a search for women that I “match” with, I actually do read the profiles of those who I might not find “very” attractive at first glance. I do know from having relationships in my past, that personality and character can go a long way to making someone seem attractive. It’s the package, not just the picture. I’ve read profiles of women who became even more attractive after I took the time to read about them. If compatibility and personality were not a big factor in making a relationship work, then why some dating sites use them as the criteria for matching?
From what your saying, it seems the dating sites would be more effective if we could punch in hair color, eye color, boob size, big butt, small butt, well hung, build, etc. and come up with matches in your zip code that way. Once you get that out of the way, then you can read the more superficial stuff in the profile.
As far as kids? If a man is truly looking to integrate you into his life with his children, it can be done. It takes some work on everyones part. But like you said, YOU have “a choice”, because your inbox will be full again in the next 24 hours…
🙂
Scott
JuJu says
Scott,
I am bi-cultural and use ethnic dating sites, as I would ideally prefer someone with the same background (that explains the different [from something like match.com] format).
It’s exactly the same way for me, I don’t have to find the person VERY attractive, merely acceptable, appearance-wise. I couldn’t care less about the color of anything (I honestly could know a person for years and not even know their eye color (unless it’s brown, but only because that’s usually easy to predict)), and sometimes I wish the size was a known from the start =), as it could potentially completely ruin the courtship, but I have to disagree with you on all those criteria as being part of the person’s profile – I can see almost all the things that interest me in a clear full-height picture anyway =), and not all of them matter, to me.
As for that relationship I had – at that point I wasn’t exactly looking to be “integrated”. It takes time for both parties to decide whether the introduction to the kids is even warranted, and we only survived 5-6 weeks. The first couple of weeks he came over every night, and we both somehow subsisted on 3 hours of sleep during that period, but it’s not sustainable long-term. If I felt that the man (any man with children) simply completes me, I guess I would have gone through the effort required, but the likelihood of that is negligible anyway.
And as far as “kickbacks” are concerned – I could tell you about so many negative experiences of my own (with online dating), so much disappointment and disillusionment that sometimes took me prolonged periods of time to recover from. Only to harp on that would not be helpful to anyone including myself. In terms of quantity, if not quality, online dating still remains the best way to meet new people. Try to vary your methods some, though, participate in activities with your children and whatnot – some women just swoon over men they perceive as good fathers.
Evan Marc Katz says
“Kickbacks”? Honestly, Scott.
Everything I say, I believe, because I’ve seen it up close.
I’ve helped people find love in both their 20’s and 60’s.
I’ve helped Asian men meet Caucasian women.
I’ve helped a pair of sisters find love.
I’ve helped a woman in a wheelchair to get engaged.
So while I’m not denying the source of anyone’s negativity – it IS a jungle out there – I can GUARANTEE you that every single person reading this can improve their success exponentially with new photos, a new profile, a new email technique, and a new understanding of the opposite sex.
There are MILLIONS of positive stories out there. If you don’t have them, the answer isn’t to blame the system, however unfair it might be. It’s to do something different.
Evan Marc Katz says
Scott,
It would be no exaggeration to say that I have hundreds of customer testimonials. It would also be no exaggeration to say that most people I work with don’t like having their names and photos attached to a very Googleable dating coach.
So, am I going to post the emails that I helped teach my clients to write? No.
Am I going to post their essays and “out” them to the world? No.
I trust that you appreciate my discretion on behalf of my valued clients. I’m not being evasive. I’m being honorable.
However, if your appetite is still not satiated, click here to see a few success stories from the first 18 months of my business:
http://www.e-cyrano.com/
Click here if you want to hear some more recent tales of success:
And if you’re still skeptical about my “success” stories and “paid” services for “working” with me, well, there’s nothing I’m going to do that’s going to convince you.
Have a good weekend.
Evan
Scott says
Evan,
I would really appreciate hearing some of the success stories out there. Can you please post some legitimate details, including what their picture looked like, what they wrote, how they corresponded, where they met? You know, SPECIFIC details about specific situations, including the websites they used.
While I find your words enlightening, you speak in very broad and general terms with no real specifics (unless I am missing them somewhere on your site) to back them up. What ARE these “success” stories? Do we get that information for free, or is that part of your “paid” services when we “work with you?
Since most men are very detail oriented and very specific in nature, maybe that would help us to be more encouraged with this website dating that you are so excited about. Details, please…
All of us men would like to know!
Thanks,
Scott
Karl R says
I took advantage of the free advice that Evan has posted around, and it improved the number of responses that I got.
I spent about 8 or 9 months last year using online dating. Nothing went past the first few dates. But I’d still say that online dating was very useful for me.
By the end of that period, I had lots of experience with asking women out and lots of experience going on first dates. When I met an interesting woman at my church, I was calm and confident when I asked her out. On the first date, I was relaxed and able to be myself.
We dated for 4 1/2 months.
That experience also helped me be confident and relaxed when I met my current girlfriend (while out dancing). Our first date was about a month ago.
Andrew Hunt (#20) said:
“I sometimes don’t get why confident people are online. They are capable enough to meet someone for real in a club or something.”
People who hang out in bars and clubs have one thing in common … they like to drink. For many of us, it’s not an ideal place to meet someone.
Obviously I have several offline options for meeting women. However, few places or activities provide access to a limitless supply of interesting women. Should I have a dry spell where I’m not encountering any new women, I can always turn to online dating to introduce me to women that I’d never run across through my normal daily activities.
A-L says
I have to disagree with Juju and Scott here about the importance of the photo in online dating. Granted, if I find the picture repulsive, then there’s no way anything in the profile is going to help. With that exception noted, however, the #1 thing that draws me to a guy’s profile is what he actually writes. If your profile is funny or interesting and doesn’t just say the same stupid stuff as everyone else’s (I like watching tv, sports, working out and am looking for an attractive woman who takes care of her body to have some fun with…) then I am totally interested. These are the guys who I will initiate contact with rather than waiting for them to contact me, because they’re RARE! And unless they look totally repusive, it makes no difference whatsoever what they look like.
Now if you have the same bland profile as everyone else, then the picture, height, weight, income, etc are all that you CAN be judged on. So, though I receive no kickbacks from Evan or anyone else, I agree with him that online dating can work, and the biggest key for me is writing a good profile (the it also helps to have good pictures, even if you’re no 10, for those who are more visually oriented).
wu says
Internet dating trades on the superficial – a photo a profile nothing else. If you read women’s profiles very careful 99% are looking for the same thing, and they have been brainwashed by the superficial society we now live in. Every man is looking for a blond supermodel, every woman for a Brad Pitt lookalike. Thats why there are so many older single women about now – and increasing all of the time. How on earth did people find partners before internet dating Evan?!!! Stick to the tried and trusted and safer way, get out there and meet people instead of spending hours in computerland living a fantasy.
Eden says
I don’t know if I’m just looking for a solution to my problem but this post is really good. I’m in love with 2 persons I met online and I’m not really sure if what I’m doing right now is good or not. One thing I’m sure though, that we don’t meet people by chance. So….whether it’s online or not, I’d still give my best to know people I meet.
hunter says
on post #40
I tell all single men, “Leave nothing to chance.”
Stella says
Dating is just plain hard work. It was the first time around and for those who havent been so lucky, even harder the second time. As an attractive, successful, divorced woman with an eight year old child, dating is alot of work. And yes, dating off of match or eHarmony is a little embarrassing when you are among your married friends who dont remember dating when a kegger wasnt involved. But if it did not work, it would not be so popular.
I routinely take stock of what it is that I want. Is it wanting too much, are my goals too lofty? It would be easy to compromise on the important stuff just to say I am with someone. But doing so is not fair to who I am as a person. I have alot to offer the right person and I truely hope that some day in the not too distant future I do stumble upon Mr. Right. I know the only way that will happen is to put myself out there – which most likely will be through a dating website. I am certain that I will amass a tome of laughable dating stories along the way. But some day it will happen.
As far as what is important in an on-line profile – lets be honest. You can write like Hemmingway, but if the person reading it does not find you physically attractive in the least bit, you are doomed to failure. We are all human – and yes, some people get better looking as you get to know them and some get worse, but having some place to start off with looks wise, is very important. Being afraid to post your picture means you are not comfortable with yourself. Cant find love unless you love yourself first.
And Scott – very cute!
Stella
hunter says
Yes, when a woman warms up to a man, the man gets better looking….when a woman, is done with a man, when she no longer wants him, the man is unattractive/ugly…..
Selena says
Hunter, re:#43
Yes I’ve found that to be true. And most often it is because the man has DONE something(s) that were unattractive/ugly.
I will postulate that the same works for men regarding women as well.
hunter says
on post #44
I am not so sure men say the same, after breaking up. I have heard men say how much they miss their former girlfriends “D”-cups……LOL!…
Selena says
Re#45
Yeah, hunter I think you’re right again. When men breakup with a woman they were attracted to they are less likely to dispage her looks. More likely to describe her as a “crazy bitch”.
Leighann says
I just stumbled upon this site and have been reading the very interesting posts. I am completely new here, but not new in the least to online dating. So here is my .02: Give it an honest try and be willing to put yourself at risk. You’ll find a 100 duds (relationship wise since everyone has value) both men and women, but it is that 101 that could be “the one” or just end up a darn good person to know. Stop bitching about all the negative, it is way too easy and so unproductive. Evan is right, if you don’t want to end up dying alone without sharing all the decent things in your life with someone you’ve connected to, then get up when the horse throws you, dust yourself off, and try it again (it gets easier btw).
My preference is chat, but I am on eharm too. I’ve had 2 serious relationships come from online, one I am still in now. Without being online, I doubt we would have found each other, no, I know we wouldn’t have. My life is so hectic that I don’t always find the time for me to get out and be social, 2 jobs, blah, blah, blah…Pretty much like everyone these days who doesn’t want to hang out at a bar, or a gym, or a church social, or worse have your family try hooking you up.
Pictures are weird, superficial, but so is the world, no getting around it, so deal with it. Just try and do the best you can. I’m not special, so I can pretty much believe if I am like this, so are most people. Someone is going to find you attractive not just by a picture but by what you have to say. Example: No, he’s not really getting my attention..read, read, read..but heck what a funny guy, oh wait, look at that smile, it’s kinda nice, and he dresses well (neat ,clean, trendy, sporty, laid back etc.)..read, read, read..we like the same books, and I love Scrabble,…those ears are kinda cute.. getting the picture here people, not everyone is superficial, in fact MOST are not.
Connections are based on a zillion different things; some it’s the ability to provide, hence the people who want to know what you do and what you make. It is in our genetic makeup both men and women. But it also can be just finding out about the other person, and ice breaker, and way to get talking. Personally, humor and conversation do it for me (and a good cowlick), and because I am happily dating a starving artist, I feel I can say this. Neither of us are “pretty people”, we’re not “alike” and it was our differences that we found intrigueing and gave us so much growth potential. It’s been a year of conversation ( no rush and I’m no spring chicken nor am I nervous about a faster meet up, we live 10,000 miles a part), and we’re finally going to meet face to face, no web cam, no pics, no phone, and we have high hopes. If it doesn’t work, I’ll cry for a week, get my shit together and begin to look again with not one regret, and I’ll have a good friend. AND it will be online, though I am not against finding someone in my own backyard.
Just take it for what it is, another way to connect. It works for some, not for others but don’t go knocking it for everyone. I hope you all connect someday, I hope mine works, there are billions of people on this planet, its a damn shame there is any loneliness at all.
JuJu says
It’s amazing how similar everyone’s experiences with online dating are (and I am at least 10-15 years younger and childless). Men who lie about their height, emotionally unavailable or unstable men, freaks with gross houses, – I encountered all that, too. It’s SO HARD not to become bitter, but that’s the only way.
JuJu says
Why was the link I posted edited out? My post doesn’t make sense without it.
JB says
JuJu forgot to tell you about the women that lie about their weight or only put up “head shots” so you can’t see they’re actually obese or that they put “average” for their weight and then you come to find out that average means 215 lbs …lol Yes,I’ve encountered all that as well as women that lie about their AGE too ! Recently I met a woman on Yahoo and actually “hit it off” Let’s see if we can make it to the 2 month mark ?? ….LOL
Lisa says
Don’t ever correspond with a woman that does not have a full body shot, that is a HUGE red flag. I put several up so that men could see my body and know I was actually the weight I said I was.
Stella says
JB,
For every woman who has lied about her weight, there are two guys who lied about either their height, weight, amount of hair existing on their head or level of interest in a committment (read – just looking for sex). Lets face it, honesty is not humanities strong suit.
The good thing is, just like learning to read the want-ads for a used car, you become pretty savvy to those folks who are not all on the up and up. Too bad there is not a “lemon law” for bad dates!
Stella
monica yeto says
thank you for sharing this because i totally agree to everything u said. i met my soul mate online. my bestfriend. love of my life. i cant live without him. he is my other half. i never expected it but it did happen. we found each other. i believe that we should be open minded to these things since we are in the information age. we cant deny the fact that its part our lives now. meeting someone online is not impossible. remember all love stories are unique. if become so critical about it, nothing will eve happen. i decided to take this risk, knowing that i might get hurt because we r distant (he is in the US army by the way). i have to admit it is painful but its fine. i love him and knowing that i do so much, we can never deny it no matter how much we cover our emotions…we will get hurt bec we open ourselves up. we become vulnerable. im not scared to open myself up because when u love, give or receive love…pain is part of it. the saying goes “its better to have love n lost than to never have loved at all.” its true. my love for him is stronger. learn to compromise. be considerate. more understanding. invest in that relationship. its hard work but its worth it.
Karl R says
Stella (#51) said:
“For every woman who has lied about her weight, there are two guys who lied about either their height, weight, amount of hair existing on their head or level of interest in a committment”
Stella, how do you arrive at this figure? Do you date both women and men? Since I date only women, I have no basis for comparison as to how honest or dishonest the men are.
“Too bad there is not a ‘lemon law’ for bad dates!”
There is. It’s called “No second date.”
Mike X says
Yes, there are men who lie about stuff. A lot of them. And there are a lot of creeps out there who will copy and paste the same email to 50 women, or will write nasty first emails to women and completely turn them off. Unfortunately, that makes it that much harder for honest, normal guys to make an impression on a woman, or even get our emails to be read.
I think Evan has touched on this many times: Because online dating allows you to be SO PICKY about every single aspect of your perfect match, people use those measures to screen out all their matches to find who they think is perfect. And of course, if you think someone is perfect, then so do 100 other people, and that perfect person just gets bombarded by email.
I think that on these sites, there is a LOT of mail being exchanged between a FEW people. You know the Pareto principle? Where 80% of activity is from 20% of participants? I’d guess that on sites like match (which is the dating site the “beautiful people”), 90% of email exchange is between 10% of the users. These are the HOT women and HOT men who get lots and lots of emails. If you are not HOT, be prepared for a lot of disappointment.
Notice I said email “exchange,” implying a back and forth. I know that women (hot or not) get lots of emails, but a lot of those emails are from guys they are not interested in. And average guys like me? Well, we don’t get anything.
I’m 5’11, 170, athletic, grad school educated, with plenty of clear photos, and a profile written in the style of Evan’s first book – humorous, with plenty of information about me. I am a nonsmoker, no baggage, good salary, etc. Every email I write is customized, yet my response rate is one out of 40 if I’m lucky. I don’t only write to the hot model girls, either.
I tell this to women not to have their pity, but just to let them know that no matter how hard they think online dating is, they should be thankful that they are not male.
Stella says
Ah, Karl. Not to disappoint, but I only date men. I do, however, have many guy friends who have told me of their dating woes – for every one of their stories, I seem to have at least two.
And Mike X – everything you have said is correct about on line dating. We do set high, almost unrealistic expectations of our future “dates” making it hard to find that perfect someone. I certainly have learned that lesson – told by one of my guy friends that I followed the 6-6-6 rule, and how was I ever going to find the right guy if I measure everyone by that standard. I have since broken myself of that rule (somewhat) and have met someone that is so not my “typical” date, but who is the perfect compliment to me and I am loving it!
hunter says
on post #55
I have heard women get into relationships, once they start seeing, a not so “typical” date.
JB says
Mike X is correct. Most women have never been “a guy online” average looking or gorgeous to see how ridiculous it all is. Average looking women won’t respond to average looking men. Just like Evan says noone thinks THEY are average. I think more men are willing to “take what they can get” as opposed to women that are “3’s” thinking they’re gonna get that 1 guy that’s a “10”. I have been EVERYONE online including the “average” guy that I AM. It’s a fascinating study to watch what happens to different types of profiles…sometimes funny but mostly very sad. But hey ….even the “average” get lucky sometimes ….. 😉
hunter says
to Mike X on post #54
Try rewriting your profile, until you get results.
Stay away from the “beautiful people,” (they get hit on many times a day, and receive 100’s of e-mails) until, you get really good at dating.
A-L says
Here are two recent e-mails guys sent me on match.com:
“want to talk” (that’s the entirety of the message)
“Hi u doing love my name is cleveland and im 5 10 light hazel brown eyes medium build about 180 im looking for a real realationship i hope u give me a chance im a good man i dont a picture yet but i would love to send u one my number 504xxxxxxx i hope u call”
I don’t care how elitist I’m being, I’m not responding to those messages no matter what the guy looks like, how much he earns, etc. Unfortunately, 90-95% of the e-mails I receive are like this. And here is one of the better ones I’ve received lately:
“i see you have alot goin on i to have rocs i raise them an bull mastiffs i have had the chance to travel alot i really loved it. u r so diverse it would take me a day to relay all ur xperiances to mine but i do find u intrestin an i would love to know more about you what part of new orleans ur from what college u graduated from. whats ur favorite quick meal. what type of work u do.” At least he’s read my profile. But is it really that hard to spell out words correctly and use standard English? Am I really asking for that much?
But I think Mike X is right about 10% of the people on Match doing 90% of the communication. Eda and I had a discussion on a different thread whereby we discussed how race is a big factor in the (low) number of hits we get. I’m 28, college-educated, moderately attractive, have an interesting profile, clear photos (head and full-body) that I tell everyone were taken in the last 10 months. I’m supposed to be at my peak of dating desireability and the garbage above is mostly what I receive. And when I initiate e-mails with guys, my response rate isn’t that great. So I think online dating is hard for everybody except for the supermodels.
Stella says
But isnt that what makes this whole thing amusing? Emails from the bull mastiff breeder.
I think it is funny that all the guys on this think that the girls have the upper hand – and I would beg to guess that the girls think it is the boys that are troublesome.
I was always amazed at how many guys emailed me pictures of their motorcycles and thought I was going to be game for a date. My profile could not be more conservative and waspy and I get Harleys – who cant spell and like to hunt.
Mike X says
Hunter – The thing is, over the past few years, my profile has gone through several iterations of re-writes, sometimes small tweaks and sometimes complete overhauls. The results are pretty much the same. I will say that I did have slightly better success (maybe 1 response out of 20 emails) when I lived in NYC, where the M/F ratio was in my favor.
A-L: I’m sure that many women are receiving emails similar to yours…so that’s why it’s that much more disappointing when my emails continue to go unanswered. And yes, I think race does play a big role – I’m Asian and as we all know from an article that Evan wrote earlier, Asian men have a huge disadvantage when it comes to dating. Glad I’m not short.
https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/dating-advice-for-short-men-life-is-unfair/
I got an email today on OKCupid.com from a woman complaining that chemistry.com is “a lot of work.” Ha ha. Maybe I should refer her to the end of my post #54…but then she’d think I’d bitter 🙂
I actually like sites like chemistry and eharmony because for regular guys (ie not supermodels), it’s SO MUCH LESS WORK than “traditional” sites like match.com.
Michael says
I wonder why most people do not like Asians.
Rachel says
I like Asians.
I also would date an albino, a little person, or a man in a wheelchair. Or a guy over 300 pounds.
When it comes to looks I’m not picky.
Lila says
I met a guy online and we were together for almost 2 years and we are still friends. It wasn’t a dating site but still, it made me think that maybe my chances of meeting someone through internet dating websites might actually be better because, even though the prior relationship didn’t work out, it still lasted 2 years. I could quickly cut to the chase and narrow it down to the best possibilities.
All I have to say is it’s been 2.5 months and what a pain in the ass. I did meet one great guy but then he admitted that he’d lied about his marital status! Not to mention, the financial mess he was in and he couldn’t even bring a date home.
Then there was the guy with nothing but tattoos and a mouthful of rotting teeth, who really needs to get laid. Of course all the photos were with his mouth closed and he wanted to make sure that I was really the person in the photo, because he had been fooled before by women were really dogs.
Then there was the 21 year old hottie who might make a decent booty call. A truly good looking guy whom I had coffee with and then was supposed to go to a party with. I actually considered going, even though I am 30 but after hanging out with his buddies and listening to them talk “how drunk they got” for about 3 hours, it was time to go. Some of them were also underage.
I know there are people out there who have been lucky but I think that after my membership expires, that I am done with it. I have to admit that I am not a big fan of it. Plenty of potentials, plenty of emails, but I am starting to believe that maybe meeting someone is something that has to come naturally. Not to mention, I can’t handle all the “weeding out”, it takes way to much time.
I think the internet would be a great way to hook up booty calls but that’s about it.
Lila says
Stella…
I get the same thing! I tell guys I like to go hiking, which I do. “Oh I’ll send you great pics I took, out in the forest the other day.”
The pics are usually mostly bikes, jeeps, trucks or the men standing there with rifles in their hands and ready to go find something to kill. Only once did I get pics of nice scenery.
Men don’t need to prove how manly they are by showing off there hardware and motors. Lol.. but I have to admit it’s pretty funny and severely symbolic of the differences between men and women.
JuJu says
What’s a 6-6-6 rule?
Kenley says
I actually don’t think it’s the case that average people don’t respond to average people per se. I think it’s people won’t respond to people they don’t think are attractive. And, I think average people can be attractive or at least have qualities that are attractive — great eyes, smile, etc.
qazarly says
I think we now have enough information to show what is happening and where the problem lies.
Firstly men using online dating outnumber women. The younger the men the worse the ratio, but for older men a quick look at Match shows about 150 men for 100 women. Good start for women.
But Freakonomics data shows that 25% of women get no email from men. Ouch, even with substantially more prospects 1 in 4 women do not make the grade. They may be the ones complaining the men want supermodels, in reality the top 75% of women.
That leaves 150 men chasing 75 women, or a ratio now of 2 to 1. The men all send lots of emails, and 60% of them get no response whatsoever. So the “frogs” of the dating world are also out in the cold – all 90 of them, but we still have 60 of them left chasing 75 of the women.
Surely the women will accept these men – not a bit of it !
The freakonomics data shows that unlike men who will attempt communication with the opposite sex in proportion to the level of attractiveness, women do not show this linear response, they pretty much only respond to the most attractive men with the top 5% getting most of the traffic.
There is now hardly any men left in the game. To be generous here – at best we now have 80% of the remaining women 60 out of 75 chasing only 20% of the men or 12 out of 60.
We have 48 men getting a small response from the 15 women who statistically must be in the bottom 40% in level of attractiveness (the 48 men are all in the top 40%). These men probably are not impressed with this outcome !
The top 12 (8%) of the men now have their pick of the 60 remaining women. Of course these women will probably not be too impressed by their success rate, and are probably wondering why the men they desire show no desire to commit.
The remaining last statistic that we have is that 90% of men give up online dating in the first 3 months, and that seems to make perfect sense given the above.
Conclusion – if people follow their biological programing very few of either sex will have any success
Cilla says
qazarly,
The statistical accuracy of your theory notwithstanding, I think you’re correct in your assumption that many women reject men based on their “attractiveness.” But let’s look at what attractiveness might mean. To me, it’s not just the face or the body in the picture, it’s whether or not the man looks put together. Did he take time to pose for and select an appealing (and accurate) photo of himself? Can I see his face, or is the shot taken from too far away? Is it blurry or too pixelated? Is he wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses in all his pics? Is he wearing a paint ball mask, a hockey mask, field camouflage, or eye black (yup, seen ’em all). In all his photos is he dressed in schlubby clothes (sweats, torn jeans, etc.)? Is he clean shaven (if not sporting a neatly trimmed beard) and is his hair combed or styled? Does his house look like a complete mess in the background? (I’ve seen a few that could qualify for an Oprah episode.)
Once I move past the photo, I look at the profile–it’s all part of the attractiveness package, so to speak. Is his profile well written, with a minimum of typos? Is it written in all caps or text message lingo? Is it too overtly sexual? Is it lacking in content that actually gives me some clue as to who this guy is? Is it a laundry list of what the man does NOT want in a mate?
I could go on and on. I don’t know if these issues are reflected in the women’s profiles as well, since I don’t read them. But if men want to avoid the instant rejection from my mailbox, they’d better start working on their overall attractiveness quotient. If they think their head shot can’t carry the profile, they should include a nice (but not overly naked) body shot, if that’s their selling point. How about a photo in a suit and tie (not with an ex-girlfriend or someone’s wedding party cropped out)? If you’re not a suit guy, how about a nice sweater? And for heaven’s sake, get rid of the beer bottles, bongs, cigarettes, and crazy party paraphernalia–I don’t need to see your last Halloween or Mardi Gras costume, or that you “gotta support the team” by painting your chest blue for every home football game.
JuJu says
The freakonomics data shows that unlike men who will attempt communication with the opposite sex in proportion to the level of attractiveness, women do not show this linear response, they pretty much only respond to the most attractive men with the top 5% getting most of the traffic.
I don’t think this is true.
I, for one, can tell if a man is “out of my league”, so to speak, and most likely won’t even bother with him.
Also, judging from some of the men who see it fit to reply to me (and other women I’ve seen and spoken to), I would think it’s the men who are way more deluded about their chances.
A-L says
Cilla’s description of what women find attractive is dead on. Unfortunately, the vast majority of men online don’t meet this requirement, and I’m rather lax about some of the physique ones.
In terms of the numbers of people online, at the end of the “Would Your Rather Spend 20 Minutes on the Phone…” thread https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/online-dating-tips-advice/would-you-rather-spend-20-minutes-on-the-phone-discovering-your-date%E2%80%99s-a-loser/) Karl R and I started looking at some of the data of men and women on Match.com. Here is what we found:
38 year olds within 5 miles of the heart of Houston: 70 men, 46 women. That’s 60.3% male, 39.7% female.
28 years old within 5 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 17 men, 14 women. That’s 55% male, 45% female.
26-40 years old within 5 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 232 men, 164 women. That’s 59% men, 41% women.
26-40 years old within 25 miles of the heart of New Orleans: 445 men, 329 women. That’s 57% men, 43% women.
Just wanted to provide a little numerical perspective on the question of does online dating even work.
qazarly says
Cilla, I quite agree that the studies done show that women look at the “package”. They want men who are tall, handsome, confident, intelligent, high status, wealthy etc. Men want women who are hot and ….well thats it.
Ju Ju, studies of speed dating shows indeed that women will make an assessment of their own level of attractiveness when they pick the men and they go for the best they think that they can get. Men just go for the hot women. But even the least attractive woman will only pick a small number of men and will set the bar as high as they can. Men choose lots of women and set the bar low.
One study showed (video on the net!) that personality had no effect at all, as long as the men were tall they could talk complete gibberish and they would still get chosen.
There is no blame here, our brains are hard wired to act in this way. Men are looking for young fertile women, and women are looking for strong providers with the best DNA.
However women choose men, they hold all the cards. Only they are in a position to change the stalemate by saying yes instead of no.
Mike X says
Here is something that puzzles me about online dating (and real life dating, I guess).
I can understand how women have the complete upper hand when they are in their 20s. They get dozens of emails a day and can reject guys left and right.
My theory was that when I got to my early 30s (I’m 32), the power would shift toward men. Makes logical sense, right? Many women start to feel a little worried when they are in their 30s and still single. They might relax their screening criteria more when they realize that the 6’2″ multilingual, HOT doctor who pulls in $250k/yr doesn’t exist in real life. Or if he does, he’s too busy being a playboy to settle down.
However, I don’t find that getting email responses is any easier for me from 30-33 yr old women as it is from 26-29 year old women. It’s still really hard. And the under 26 crowd still completely ignores me…haha.
Do I have to wait till I’m in my late 30’s to really see the shift? I don’t want to end up being a cougar hunter. Purrrr…
Cilla says
qazarly,
I think you misinterpreted my point. Yes, women look at the total package, but I did not mention anything about wealth or status when I referenced my “attractiveness quotient.” I’m sure there are some women who look for these attributes, but I was talking about the first impressions a man makes in his profile–the style that is manifested before the substance can be uncovered, if you will. I would consider wealth or status to be a second layer that a woman uncovers only after a man has met the initial attractiveness criteria as discussed in my PP. A woman has to get past the grainy picture of the disheveled guy in sweats to discover he’s a multimillionaire.
This whole “study” about how tall men are preferable regardless of their personalities or intellects is questionable. All things being equal, perhaps women will initially choose a taller man. But height doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and most women will factor in other qualities after a few minutes of evaluation. I know personally I get lots of email contacts from men who are attractive and tall. Once I read their profiles and see how vapid some of their ramblings are, I delete. I’m currently dating and corresponding with a few men in hopes of finding one person for a LTR. One of the top contenders is 5’6″, based on his quick wit, style and general joie de vivre. I realize this is anecdotal, but I do know other women who feel the same way.
I believe the hardwired DNA theory is changing as environmental influences are beginning to trump nature. Both men’s and women’s perceptions of what is desirable in a mate are being challenged by media images that have no bearing on fertility or perpetuation of the species. If men were looking for the best biological partner to ensure the continuation of their DNA, they would choose women with the largest waist to hip ratios (proven to be associated with both fertility and longevity). Instead, the current trend is toward slender women with narrow hips and boyish figures. Just read some of the discussions here and on other sites regarding preferences for “athletic” or “slender” women–Maxim aesthetic, yes. Fertility? No way. And you contradict yourself: if women were looking for the best providers, they would be looking at big men who could “hunt” for them. Wealth or status wouldn’t even be a factor. To my knowledge, our DNA has yet to evolve to contain a code for mating based on bank accounts.
As far as women holding all the cards goes, I agree to a point. In the cyber world the odds are stacked in favor of women. However, once that first contact has been made, the control goes to men. Take a look at Evan’s latest post “The Most Important Dating Advice You’ll Ever Hear” and you’ll see what I mean.
JuJu says
Mike,
I don’t think you are correct to expect a shift, at any age. In the animal world, the female chooses. She is only limited, obviously, by the selection of men available to her.
And if anything, you should have gotten more responses in your 20’s from women your age, since not as many of them are looking to settle down.
But the main phenomenon responsible for that behavior is that women’s standards do not go down over time (or due to circumstances – you must have observed an overweight (or whatever) woman feeling entitled to an attractive mate, no?). A woman can wait her entire life for a “prince”. This is something I remember reading in some scientific article.
Cilla says
Mike X,
Just got an unsolicited email from a 32-year-old (very hot). I’m 47. What’s wrong with being a cougar hunter? LOL
Seriously, I think there are more subtle demographic divisions among both sexes than we acknowledge. It’s been my contention for a while that women under a certain age (probably around 26) are still partying, looking for fun, not thinking long-term or about having kids. That shifts as women approach 30 and becomes urgent for women approaching 40, assuming they are still childless and want children. There is another demographic group of women who have had children (or don’t want them) and are in their 30’s and 40’s. They are looking for different things in a relationship and may have a broader set of criteria for men. The same divisions apply to men, although their urgency to reproduce is obviously not driven by a biological clock. To lump everyone from the same age group together doesn’t make sense.
Now, let’s complicate that scenario by assuming that as women age they may become more, not less, picky about their potential mates, even though statistics say this works against them. And men who have, say, been put through the ringer in divorce become pickier about finding their next mates, as well. Add having kids, or wanting kids, and things like geographic location, etc., and you have a complex situation that resists any kind of formula or algorithm for finding the perfect match.
What I’m saying is: there is no magic equation for setting up your search criteria, no guarantees that just because you are of a certain age, women from a corresponding age group will be interested in you. I personally find very few men from my own age group interested in me; they are almost always 5-15 years younger or 5-10 years older. My theory is that the 45-year-old male is the equivalent of the 30-year-old female in terms of stringency of the selection process.
You can set a very broad set of parameters and within that, look at each person individually. (Remember? Well, you probably don’t, since you’re so young, but people used to do that back in the day, before this whole Internet dating thing came along.) You can use statistics to fuel your search, but remember that this is life, not a math problem. At 32, the world should be your oyster.
JB says
To Mike X……You’ll NEVER see a shift. Trust me I’m 48. Late 30’s,40’s 50’s ??? Forget it. Possibly in your 70’s because I hear there’s 4 women for every man ….LOL
Most of you on here have never put up “test” profiles to actually see what really goes on. If all you’ve ever been is yourself online you can’t possibly understand the REALITY of online dating. I’ve been 40 different people online,all shapes,sizes,ages and attractiveness,male & female(straight only for both…lol) <–(I’m sure being gay opens up a whole different can of worms)
It taught me so much because you actually see 99% of what you’re missing coming from only 1 point of reference. It was very enlightening and disheartening at the same time. Remember knowledge is power.
Joe says
JB, would you mind sharing your discoveries?
qazarly says
Cilla, I am not contradicting myself because I am not bringing to the discussion personal anecdotal ‘evidence’, but the results of studies conducted by scientists applying rigorous scientific methodology. I don’t think my opinion, based on personal experience is worth much in comparison.
In some cases these studies are showing the results of many thousands of dating interactions, and the different studies are for the most part supporting conclusions of other studies.
Interestingly when women are interviewed on what they are looking for in a mate that doesnt always seem to bear any relation to what they ACTUALLY go for.
Women are experts at picking up clues on wealth and status just based on looks, and in speed dating will have rejected or accept the guy in the time it takes him to sit down.
Wealth is power of course which is the thing that attracts. Alpha males are few in number, but women will seek them out regardless of age. Men in their 80s will still desire the 25 year old.
Our brains do not change – our rate of success does.
I am also interested in JBs discoveries, but my guess it will follow the result of the studies.
Men will send lots of email to attractive women regardless of their own status ,wealth or age. Women will reject all men who are short or poor or pretty much anyone who isnt physically attractive and/or wealthy.
JB says
Well without boring everyone with a long drawn out post. My discovery of no matter what a guys profile says as long as it’s generic,harmless etc… and he has 2 or 3 very good looking (top 5%) pics he will get not only the most attractive women(8-10’s)which is expected but also a ton of 3’s -7’s who I can assure you have never dated anyone that looks like these guys. Now when these 3’s -7’s don’t hear from the attractive guy they won’t email ANY men who are in the 5-8 range. All of these profiles were basically the same stats EXCEPT attractiveness. So none of that is a real shock because as we all know on this blog everyone thinks of themselves as much higher. I know men do the same thing they email women way out of their league but I also think that men email more women in their league and below just because if we can’t get what we want we’ll take what we can get. What I found interesting is that when I put an attractive woman’s profile up in the same area and age range that I’m in(to see my competition so to speak as well as see who’s exactly emailing the women I email.)Their wasn’t 2 who I would email back if I was her. Leading me to wonder WHO are some of these women emailing and dating ??? Do they just come on to “window shop ?” Be validated on a daily basis ?? ie:.. “Wow you’re hot,can I take you out to dinner.We have so much in common”….LOL Possibly the “waiting for Prince Charming” syndrome ??? I’m sure all of the above. Oh and I love when a woman emails you and tells you with the “Thanks, but I’ve just met someone and want to see what develops” and then I wink at them with one of the “hottie” profiles and suddenly they’re single and available …lol Really ladies if you’re not interested ignore us & delete us we’re used to it ! Being that I consider myself a 5 or a 6 I probably do better than 90% of the guys online where as I think a very large percentage of men not only NEVER get a date they NEVER even get response. As I read most men’s profiles I feel sorry for them. They’re not only delusional but clueless. The women will always have the upper hand online but when you’re over 40 it’s online dating or bust. Their really are no other choices so you better be good at it.
Michael says
You may be right.
I noticed still-active profiles on my Favorites list that are at least two years old, and the women are somewhat good-looking.
Mike X says
JB,
Thanks for sharing your insight. There is a dating coach out there who has claimed to have done the same thing as you (he also claims to have dated 398 women in four years) but I don’t trust a thing he says, because I’ve tried his methods and they don’t work.
Anyhow, you said “I put an attractive woman’s profile up in the same area and age range that I’m in [….] Their wasn’t 2 who I would email back if I was her.”
Why? Did the responses all come from ugly guys? Was their grammar horrendous? dId thEy RiTe LikE diS?
JuJu says
I think I may have mentioned it in another thread, but I remember reading in some scientific article that personal ads (of any kind, including internet) are primarily used by omega men, and are a rather hopeless resource for alpha women.
JB says
Well Mike the truth is and I’m sure the women will back me up on this.There’s just an abundance of badly written boring,generic profiles with badly taken photo’s of average to unattractive men out there. There’s an equal amount of bad women’s profile’s it’s just they all ignore each other. You know what always shocks me the most ? When I see people that advertise they have a college degree and they can’t string 5 sentences together to make a coherent profile ! …LOL
I know all about dating coach Dave M and I don’t use what he teaches but I’m sure it may work better for very attractive guys unfortunately that leaves average guys out.
qazarly says
The statistics I have shown above indicate that the key problem is that women are only interested in the very top of the scale. They do not realise just how selective they are. To them men of 6ft are plentiful – in reality only 15% of the population at best.
Most women online wouldn’t give a guy with the national average salary a second look. 50% of men will earn less than this average.
If only 5% have the right income, and 5% have the right looks, and 15% have the right height, and 10% have the right intelligence then it follows that women will be perfectly happy with one man in 30,000 and half of them will suffer from substantial hair loss !
JuJu says
That scientific work I keep referring to (it’s not actually an article, but a book on the mating behavior of humans) mentioned that if it were socially acceptable, and economically feasible, and psychologically desirable, women would mimic the mating preferences of sea lions, in the natural habitat of which 4% of the males impregnate 88% of the females.
JuJu says
I sincerely thank you, qazarly. This has been most enlightening and eye-opening.
If you have any more pertinent info, keep it coming.
Kenley says
I found this quotation below and while it’s written from the male perspective, I think it applies to women too…
I was looking for the perfect woman and I found her. Alas, all did not end well because she was looking for the perfect man!
The problem with online dating is people think they can find perfection and my other favorite quotation is you don’t have to be perfect to be wonderful. Wish more people would remember that!
Kenley says
In post #85 what I really meant is that I wish more people actually believed that the right person doesn’t have to be perfect to be wonderful. The pursuit of perfection is what keeps most people unattached.
Qazarly,
While statistics are useful and important overall, they don’t really matter much when your personal experience is so vastly different. And my personal experience as an average woman seeking a connection on-line is that not a whole bunch of men are seeking average women either. The whole photo thing, which is what most men and lots of women use as the first hurdle, doesn’t take into account the animal attraction that you can have with a person that defies explanation as well as your image of what is attractive about a man. I know the most potent attraction I had was with someone with whom I didn’t even think was handsome. Yet, we both shared an instant and magnetic charge that neither of us could resist. If I had seen a picture of him, I would have dismissed him without a second thought. Somestimes chemistry is not what you expect, but online dating rarely lets you get to it because most of us rely too heavily on photos to weed people in or out of our consideration set.
But, I do remember there was one time when a guy’s profile was so compelling to me that I ignored his photo and decided to meet him. In that instance, he looked about a million times better than his photo and I experienced that red hot, instant, and mutual attraction with him. I was literally giddy after meeting him. Unfortunately, he was only interested in a casual relationship so we never made it to date two. But, the lesson I learned once again is that photos don’t always tell the whole story…sometimes they do, but not always. So, I try to give guys a chance even if their photos don’t make my heart skip a beat. Yet, I know very, very, few guys who will go out with a woman if they don’t find her physically attractive…that’s just been my personal experience. Or if they do go out with a woman they don’t find all that attractive, they let her know that they are settling, and who wants to be told — hey, you’re not what I really want, but you’re all I can get?
JuJu says
Or if they do go out with a woman they don’t find all that attractive, they let her know that they are settling, and who wants to be told — hey, you’re not what I really want, but you’re all I can get?
Wow, people really do that?!?
That is some astounding lack of class.
In this case, you don’t need the guy not just because he isn’t all that attracted to you, but simply because he is an ass.
This is a truly ugly person.
Jason says
When i found out about Internet dating about eight years ago i thought it was going to be the answer to my dating prayers.Im considered good looking by some of my friends,so all i had to do, i thought was put my photo online sit back and wait for dozens of emails from sexy women to come rolling in.
OH OH !!
No Replies after sending out ten emails,then twenty emails then thirty emails!
What the hell is going on here?
I was thinking was it my photo? or did i came across as to rude(far from it)
I then starting looking for other mens Internet dating experiences and to my relief found this was normal for most men.
What i find amazing is some of the women in the 30s with the “waiting for the prince charming” sydrome.Im 38 and ive written to women in their mid-late 30s who you would think would be bitting your hand off to go on a date due to their options being less than they were in their 20s.
Not a bit of it i would get the “sorry your not my type” or you would see they have looked at your profile and dont even write back.I dip in and out of Internet date because its so frustrating and disheartning if your a bloke.
The other thing that grates me is if i chatted this women up in a bar or the street im sure they would be receptive and i would be able to get thier phone numbers,You cant convey sexual chemistry on the interent,and thats a big part of attraction.
Jason
J says
Excuse me, but I’m a woman in my early thirties (32 to be exact) and I am NOT biting anyone’s hand off to go out with me! My options are a lot better now than when I was in my twenties, because I’m much better looking now than I was then, even if I am a little older. Don’t assume that just because a woman isn’t 24 anymore, she has few options. Just because I’m 32 now, I’m not allowed to have standards and hold out for a guy I find attractive? Please. I’ve gotten a very steady stream of attention during my time online. Don’t assume that a woman over 30 has little chance of success just because she’s “older”.
Kenley says
Jason,
From what I’ve heard, I don’t think you would actually like a woman who was biting her hand off to go on a date you with you — she would ooze desperation and most men don’t think desperation is attractive jewelery on a woman. The other thing is that your assumption that these women have less options than they did in their 20s may not be true. If these women weren’t on the internet in their 20s, it may actually feel like they have way more options than they did when they were younger because they are getting hundreds of emails a week. In the real world, I don’t think many women get hit on by hundreds of men in a week. So relative to the 20 somethings she’s competing with today, the mid-late 30 year old has fewer guys trying to woo her, but relative to her younger self, she may actually be overwhelmed.
Joe says
qazarly (#82), that is not quite inaccurate. 50% of men earn the median–not the average–salary or less.
Glenda says
Joe–Actually, half of the men do not EARN the median salary; rather, the median salary is that number where half the population falls above and half falls below. And it’s used as a more accurate number than the average qazarly quoted, since it’s not affected by extreme outliers, such as multi-billionaires, who would skew the average (or mean) salary upwards.
hunter says
on post #89,
“she would ooze desperation”,,,,,I like the phrase….hhmmmhhh…
hunter says
on post #86
Any man that tells a woman, he is settling, on account of not finding someone else, is asking to be dismissed/dropped/booted/bye-bye…..not all men know how to leave/exit/say this is not working out, some of us we just need a big boot up our bottom!!……
hunter says
on post #80
JuJu,
Really? Are there lots and lots of Alpha women out there?……
hunter says
To Cilla on post #74,
Sometimes I wish more women would become cougar hunters.(common practice all over Europe) This way, Women might be more at ease when going on a date with the man they really want.
JuJu says
All I can say, Hunter, is that specifically _online_ I saw more quality women than I have men.
Cilla says
Hunter,
I don’t get it. How can a woman become a cougar hunter? Do you mean you wish more women were comfortable dating younger men, i.e. being “cougars?” If that’s the case, I agree with you. I think everyone in general should be comfortable dating whomever they want, and society shouldn’t care. No one looks twice when a younger woman goes out with an older man. Maybe if women weren’t labeled “cougars,” however, they would be more comfortable. As long as a negative connotation is attached, some women will simply not date younger men.
For what it’s worth, I’ve dated 9 men, including 2 LTRs, since my divorce. One was four years older than me, two were two years older than me, and six were younger than me. The greatest age difference was 19 years younger than me. While I’m currently looking in a slighter narrower age range, I’d have no problem dating a significantly younger guy if he were sure he didn’t want children. I take constant flak from my friends and neighbors for it, and I have stopped defending myself. I just tell them I do what makes me happy, then turn the inquisition around to them and grill them about all the great decisions they’ve made in their love lives LOL. Believe me, that shuts them up fast!
starthrower68 says
You can pretty much answer this question with the title of another one of Evan’s posts: “Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex”.
Michael says
I don’t think you would actually like a woman who was biting her hand off to go on a date you with you — she would ooze desperation and most men don’t think desperation is attractive jewelery on a woman.
Can desperation on her part be taken advantage of?
Karl R says
Michael,
Let me turn your question around.
Let’s say a man was desperate to get into a long-term relationship. Perhaps he felt insecure about himself because all his peers were married or in long-term relationships. Lets say this man was desperate to get into a relationship so he could “measure up” to these peers.
Do you think it would be possible for a woman to take advantage of this man?
Would it be possible for a woman to date this man, while repeatedly cheating on him with other men, then get him to repeatedly “forgive” her, since his only choices would be to allow her cheating or be alone again?
Would it be possible for a woman to persuade this desperate man that he needed to spend beyond his means in order to win / keep her affections?
Would it be possible for the woman to bully the man into always doing things her way, since she could threaten to leave him if he ever stood up for himself?
I don’t believe men and women are that different. I think it is no more difficult to take advantage of a desperate woman than it is to take advantage of a desperate man.
I also believe it’s completely unethical to take advantage of someone who is desperate. But there are no shortage of unethical people (or desperate people) in the world.
Michael says
It makes you wonder why desperate people can not find each other.
One could set up a dating website catering to desperate people, but then how would one filter out the kind of people whom you mentioned above?
JB says
Desperate people can’t find each other online for the same reason that people that are 3’s,4’s and 5’s don’t email each other online and date each other. No one THINKS or realizes they’re desperate and no one thinks they’re a 3 or a 4 or a 5.
A great percentage of men & women online are delusional and unrealistic.
Lisa says
OMG YES! You are spot on. I am engaged now but my best advice to men (and women too I suppose I just can’t speak from that side of things) is to not email a girl online and expect her to respond to you if you would not approach said same female in person. I think this helps people from setting their expetations too high in general. It is like as soon as men get online they all want 10s and won’t settle for anything less.
Joe says
Yeah, but one person’s 3, 4 or 5 is another person’s 6, 7 or 8. :p
Michael says
For some women, all men are zeroes.
Michael says
My biggest problem is finding something witty or funny to write.
Ugly Short Guy says
Online dating doesn’t work because women don’t use the internet to actually meet and date men. Most women only use it to reinforce in themselves the notion that their prolonged single-status is NOT their fault, but instead because of the fact that there are simply “no good men to date.”
Here’s how it plays out: a women sets up an online dating profile. She immediately gets 200 messages. She ignores all those messages because there are just too many to handle and starts her own “search.” What she searches for are the tallest and hottest guys she can find, whom she messages right away. After not hearing back from those few guys (or getting replies and realizing they’re complete morons/jerks/losers) she gives up altogether, claiming “there were no good men to date online.”
However, if women would use online dating to find men who have common interests and good personalities, they might actually end up on some good dates. BUT, that’s not what women do. They only search for and contact tall and hot guys, then when those don’t pan out, they give up.
Lisa says
No if men would get together and all only email the women whose critera that they actually fit women would not get bombarded by 200 emails. Men screw each other. If my profile says that I am looking for a man with a bachelors degree, who is above 5’9, lives within 30 miles of my home, is in good shape, does not have children but wants them, does not smoke and is in my age range, please do not email me if you are 10 years outside of that range in either direction, smoke, don’t have a degree, live three states away, and then get mad when I don’t respond, come on now! It would work a lot better if men looked at what the person they were writing was interested in, rather than forcing themselves on women whose criteria they do not meet. I promise you that out of those 200 messages 180 do not fit within the woman’s must haves so all it is doing is jamming up the woman’s email box and taking up space for me that she actually may be intersted in.
JB says
Well they would say “why can’t I have a tall hot guy with common interests and good personality?” and we know the answer is because women that are 5’s don’t get or date men that are 9’s and 10’s and vice versa. Attraction works a lot different online than in real life because of all the so called “stats” you have on paper in front of you like income,occupation,residence,education etc……all of which matter to women a lot more than men.
And actually I’ve been several “tall hot guys” online and for the most part most of the most attractive women DO NOT initiate contact with them(for fear of rejection I would assume or because they feel they shouldn’t have to) but they will “look” at them a lot and let it be known that they’re “viewing” their profile basically saying “here I am,notice me !!!” in hopes of having the tall hottie initiate and show interest first. Mostly the tall hot guys only get initiated contact by the delusional obese 4 or 5 or the occasional “cougar” but seldom his equal. On occasion a woman who’s his equal might email or wink,it’s rare but it does happen. Yes,I’m sure the 9’s and 10’s on any given site get together……lol Just like in real life. No shock there.
Anna says
Online dating doesn’t work for most people. Out of a straw poll of 10 friends who have tried online dating, only one met someone online who they had a long-term (longer than six months) relationship.
The other 9 found that the people they met on dates 1) were a lot older or bigger than they claimed on their profile, 2) looked nothing like their online photo(s) or 3) were clearly after one thing only.
It’s a good idea but the reality is that the internet doesn’t provide solutions for every aspect of human life.
A-L says
RE: Anna’s #110
A few questions
1. What percentage of these friends are male and what percentage are female?
2. What percentage of dates that you or your friends go on (that did not come from online dating) make it to 6+ months?
3. How many of these matches did you or your friends initiate vs how many of these dates were initiated by the other person?
Steve says
I’ve been Internet dating for almost a year now, since my 10-year relationship tragically and stupidly broke up.
I’m unusually good-looking and fit, but I’m 52. I’ve encountered huge amounts of age discrimination. Most women don’t even include my age group in their searches because they assume that 50 = dead. Even though I can outmuscle most guys half my age.
I have had a few dates, a brief (one month) relationship, and I caught caught up in one embarrassing scam. All my experiences have been pretty bad. Many of the women I’ve met have lied about all sorts of things, or omitted important information. The one-month woman was patently crazy, very disturbed.
But the main reality is, there just isn’t much action for a guy my age on these websites. I don’t get responses to my nice, polite emails, and women rarely initiate contact with me, notwithstanding my “hardbody” and nice smile and solid, rational profiles.
I agree with Evan that online dating represents an opportunity, especially for rural farmboys like myself. But, although I persist in the search, I’m gradually abandoning hope. Looks like I’m going to have to learn to be more happy with just myself. I call this the “hermit option.”
My dad used to say, “There are worse things than being alone.” It’s oh so true. Nothing is worse than a nightmare relationship. Then, trust me, you pray for sweet loneliness.
Thank God for dogs.
Lisa says
Are you looking in your age range? Meaning the same age as you?
Kristyn says
@Steve
I am 39, almost 40. I’ve met online and dated men who were 25 – 51. I get emails and flirts from mostly younger guys (between 20 – 30). Ideally, though, I’d like someone closer to my age and am always thrilled when someone who is my age contacts me.
Really, 50 year old women think a man who is 52 is dead? Who do you think they are dating?
Ava says
Steve #112
Are you contacting women in your own age range? As in 40-50’s? If you’re a good-looking, fit, nice guy, it’s hard for me to believe women aren’t interested. If women aren’t including your age in their searches, it must be because you’re contacting women under 40, and correct, most of them are looking for men closer to their own age.
Lisa says
Right same thought I had. I suspect he is contacting women under 40 and they are not going to be interested. Sorry.
Selena says
@ Steve #112
Like Ava, I’m also curious about the age range of women you are contacting. Generally, women prefer men within their own generation. If you are writing to women 10 or more years younger than you, be aware of this.
That issue non-withstanding, I can guess being rural might be a factor. Simply less to choose from. A couple years ago I read of a site called farmers.com, I believe it was – you might try looking into a specialized site like that to meet women who live in/are interested in – living in the country opposed to those who are definite “city girls”.
I spend part of the year living in “Amish country” so to speak – so I know how difficult it can be to meet singles where there are sparse places to meet anyone period.
Steve says
Thanks very much for your nice comments, Krystyn, Ava, and Selena.
Part of my difficulty is that I look, act, and feel like I’m 40 or even younger, not 52. But women closer to my age tend to look more like my mother. So I feel out-of-step with women in their 50s, and have indeed sought a younger match. But at least I’ve kept an open mind, and routinely include women in my age group in my searches.
Another part of the difficulty is that there seems to be a trend among women to prefer men younger than themselves. For example, a 40-year-old women might say she’s looking for a man 28-40. This reverses a longstanding tradition according to which the man is older than the woman.
I feel left out in the cold. I’ve been extending my searches to places like the Philippines, where more traditional values still apply. But dating someone overseas, esp. in a Third World country, poses huge challenges.
Lisa says
Women under 40 are going to have a low response rate to you, sorry. I am 39 and to me 52 is way too old. Whether you act 40 or not, your body is still 52. Most women in their 30s (not me) are looking to have kids as well and see you as far too old to start a family with. You have every right to be attracted to what you are attracted to, but you are correct in that unless you select women your age you are going ot have a hard time meeting someone. Sure you can go to the Phillipines and meet a woman trying to get her citizenship who will dump you a few years after she gets it. I just think you need to be more realistic in your search.
hunter says
lisa, the man can go to the phillipines or the Ukraine, or any other country, to meet a woman, she may get her citizenship and she may stay with him forever…..!
hunter says
lisa, some men go to Japan, and never come back, because of the attention they get over there….!!
Kyra says
@Steve, as a general rule when I was online dating (I do not use online dating anymore) I ignored or bypassed any profile of a man who said or insinuated he is “____ age, but look, feel and act younger.” Aside from rather superficial, it throws up a warning flag for me.
I appreciate and am attracted to men who value their age, their experience and their time on this earth. I find myself turned off by men who feel or like to believe they look, act or behave younger than they are. Because, they aren’t. More than likely they look their age, act their age or have interests/habits/hobbies that are their age.
You are your age. Wear it with pride. That, to me, is attractive and desirable. Any person seemingly searching for, clinging to and believing they’re a living/breathing fountain of youth gives me cause for concern, especially when it comes to getting close, creating a relationship and planning a future. If that person clings to some idealized image or need for youthfulness, I worry what maturity and adult goals and desires they bring to a relationship.
I’m 41, but I have the gift of melanin and am usually mistaken for 6-8 years younger than I actually am. And, while I know I may look younger, I don’t advertise this on dating profiles or voice this thought to others because, when it all comes down to it, I know my behaviors, actions, interests, character is that of a 41 year old woman. And, I’d be selling both myself short and any young men seeking to date me short by selling the idea I’m younger than I actually am.
You also claim that women who do not seek to date men you are are discriminating against you. That’s a pretty harsh word to use for women who are simply exercising their preference.
I’d say be sure to never include any lines about “…looking or feeling younger than your age” in your profile. To both younger women and women you are it feels like you’re tossing out bait to hook a young woman and it can be very much a turn off for both. In the meantime keep up a well-written profile with good photos and the women who find you attractive and interesting and within their acceptable age range will respond to your messages. Then, it’s up to you to decide if their age (and how they look in accordance to that age) is within your preference
Emily says
Steve I’m 41. I think you’re the perfect age! There are plenty of women who would date you here in the States.
Rick says
Women who end up online dating were not chosen in the real world. Any charming, good looking woman, with her life together has plenty of opportunities in the real world to be picked up. All she has to do is express a little interest and the guys will be calling. ( Ya, ya, I know, some girls are just too busy to meet people in the real world…but then, what kind of relationship are you going to have with Miss too busy anyway). So, all the girls in the online dating pool are the ones passed over. They feel rejected. They put up their profiles and, all of a sudden, they are being chosen. And not by 1 guy, but by dozens wanting to meet them. So, its zero to hero for them in an instant. And it goes straight to their head. So, you have the instant ego boost combined with the issues that lead her to online dating in the first place. Not a good combination for any self respecting man to deal with. That’s why online dating sucks for guys. Quality women have no need to advertise.
J says
Your assertion that women are online because they’ve been passed over in real life is absolutely NOT true. Many of us are simply too busy to meet men any other way. Think about it: with more women choosing to pursue full-time careers, how much time does that realistically leave for getting out to meet men? I’m a good-looking, good-hearted and fun woman but I’m not getting hit on the grocery aisle. I have hobbies I regularly pursue. I hate bars, I have few friends, am going to school and have a full-time job,. When am I supposed to have all these opportunities to be “picked up”, as you put it?
Steve says
Dating sucks period, Rick. But you make excellent points. However, I think that with so much shifting to “online” these days, online dating is more of the norm today than it was just a few years ago. So maybe it doesn’t just attract losers.
Still, what you wrote makes a lot of sense. By now, I have dated or at least communicated with several women I met online, and all of them had mental (and physical) issues I found hard to contemplate living with permanently.
As they say, there is someone for everyone, though, and I’ll just keep trying until I croak.
Rick says
I wish you the best Steve. And, I never wrote that it was just ‘losers’ who online date. I actually have met some pretty successful women online dating. But even they were passed over in ‘the real world’ for a reason, and it became apparent in short order. Even though it is more technologically acceptable to meet people this way than it was 10 years ago, normal, attractive girls just don’t need to do it. With family, friends, work , the gym, etc….these girls do just fine without online dating. It’s the ones who don’t that end up on the dating sites. And in a rural area, if she’s average looking and in any kind of decent shape, the online competition between the men just overwhelms her, and them as well. Since, as I wrote, good looking normal girls just aren’t online dating. And, you end up seeing them still active 6 months, 1 year, 3 years from now….still looking for that perfect guy; more evidence that something’s just not right. I would love to prove myself wrong, and still hold out hope to do so. But so far, this has been the reality for me every time.
Kristyn says
Guess I’m not a good looking, quality normal girl. Good thing I read this blog or I wouldn’t never have known. Thanks for the enlightenment Rick.
Kristyn says
I was probably “passed over” because I don’t proof read my comments before I submit them.
Kristyn says
Sorry about snapping. I sometimes get offended when it feels like someone passes blanket judgments about a whole group of which I belong. I think that they are (hopefully) commenting about their own personal experiences and less about me. I would never assume that all (insert group) are (insert trait/characteristic/flaw) because I know people are individuals. And btw – I’m equally offended when someone says “all men are jerks” or whatever because it justn’t so. Maybe the last guy was a jerk (he wasn’t) but so what? Doesn’t mean the next guy will be. If the last girl you met online had major issues doesn’t mean they all will. The day I quit seeing people as individuals – with both good and bad qualities – and simple see them as a group (or worse as the enemy) is the day I become a hermit and go live in a cave by myself.
Joe says
Well, Rick, if your opinion is that people who are into online dating have something wrong with them, nobody would ever find anyone online, since those who are looking are seeing people who are similarly flawed.
Rick says
Kristen and Joe – I apologize if I offended you. Online dating is very frustrating, which makes me eat so many lemons. I am just speaking from personal experience, which seems to be similar to Steve’s, and many other men’s experience with online dating. Out of all of my female friends (and I have more female friends then male) very, very few have ever tried online dating. They just don’t have to. The few that do try it, to be honest, are the ones that have the significant issues with their behavior, weight, or have 2 + children. I’m sure there are exceptions to this, and maybe this just happens in the small town I live in. Believe me, I wish I was writing that online dating is awesome, and has led to many healthy relationships for me. But the truth is, I haven’t had 1 quality relationship occur from online dating. And I’ve been one of the fortunate men to have been able to actually go out on dates with the women I meet online. Most men, from what I read, aren’t even that lucky. It doesn’t seem like it works for the girls either, as I still see the same ones online, years after I first joined. I was just making a general statement about my experience. I truly hope you are right, and that I have yet to meet the individual that will change my mind.
Jennifer says
Rick #117- Sometimes the scenario is quite different than the one you describe. You have some women online that are approached quite often ‘irl’ but not by the guys she wants to meet. So she goes online thinking the guys may be a bit more ‘serious’, or looking for the more introverted guy that is too shy to approach her in the store.
You have women that have gotten out of relationships and are getting out there to meet people- online is just another way, like going out with friends or to clubs etc.
I get that your experience with women online has been less than ideal, but I hope you realize that the conclusions you’ve drawn about why that is are far from representative of everyone.
JB says
Jennifer’s also leaving out another huge reason some women especially older women prefer online to “irl”. Online they can “shop”(qualify) specifically by numbers as well as looks ie: Height,income,education etc…. where as “irl” they have no say as to who approaches them. You can’t easily ignore or delete a guy “irl” who shows interest at a bar or singles event as you can online.
Diana says
Given that so many profiles are not honest, if some women are going based on numbers (and even photos can be fake), they could run into trouble. My online profile has very few preferences and there are no preferences set for: income, education, salary, job, religion, or physical traits. I am an attractive woman who has been told that my profile is clever, so you might would think my in box would stay at least a little busy, but that’s not the case. Loads of guys view my profile, but very few approach. I think my biggest detractor for guys is the fact that I have two children living at home, although they are older teens. That’s too bad (for the guys, anyway). 😉 Ce la vie.
JB says
Diana,I don’t mean that women’s profiles are set with “preferences” the “qualifiers” are in the mind as they search. Most sites won’t let you “”disqualify” or “filter out” who emails you except Plenty of Fish who’ll let you decide by age or if you have a photo who you will accept emails from but not obviously height,education,income etc… I’m just saying that “SOME” women not all do use and stick to certain criteria.That’s what Evan is trying to get them to change and stop being so rigid.
I know personally for myself that recently I’ve actually gotten responses from women who’s first question they ask is “tell me what you do and where you work” and then after I tell them. I’m disqualified and I never hear from them again. Not all of them,but some.
Just like I don’t disqualify against a woman with kids under 15 for THAT reason alone but I have to draw the line somewhere and recently it was at a woman with 4 kids under 16 who sent me a recent pic (NOT in her profile btw) that was 20-30 lbs heavier than the one IN her profile. We all have our “deal breakers” don’t we…lol It’s just for men we usually don’t let what a woman does for a living or her income,education etc…break the deal all that often.
We’re so superficial….lol So are the women believe me…lol
Joe says
C’est la vie, indeed.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve noticed that on Match people who don’t fill in an answer on one of the questions (e.g. body type, hair color, etc.) don’t show up in searches unless the searcher has no preference on that question. So if you were looking for someone with all but one hair color (and had checked off all the boxes but one), you would not find someone who has “no answer” listed but who may very well fit the bill.
Diana says
Thanks for mentioning that, Joe. I search based on age and location. I have all of my details listed. I just click on “no preference” for several of the “what am I looking for” items. Most of the profiles that Match sends my way get disqualified due to their location.
I had a good chuckle one time when I privately labored over whether a man I was genuinely interested in was living too far away. When I finally let him know this, he sounded irate and asked me whether I was interested in having a relationship or dating my next door neighbor. Well, I guess it depends on your next door neighbor. 😉
A-L says
Can’t quite figure out where to post this, so it’s going here. How do most people search for people on Match.com? Do they search via activity date? Newest first? Just the default “Match picks” mode? A different way?
The reason why I ask is because I am trying to convince my friend to at least log in to her account daily, even if she does nothing, just so that her account will be active within 24 hours. Because last night while we were searching for her it was 8 pages of 18 profiles per page before we got to people who had been active less often than that. So since she only logs in 1-2 times per week, I was telling her that most guys would never find her in a search. (Her profile is far from new, the alphabetical order search wouldn’t help her…she does have a picture so she might randomly come up sooner in that or in the semi-random Match.com default search but no guarantees there.)
JB says
All my searches are in this order
1. Newest profiles first
2. Distance from my house (closest first obviously)
3. Active within a week
I’m sure most people on every site know if you’re not active in over a week it’s not a great thing. But on Match for guys searching by “distance” first she should still come up to those guys nearest to her on the first page even if she hasn’t logged on in 2 or 3 days.
Diana says
Hi A-L. I don’t know how people search on Match, but I make it a point to update my profile every few days, even if it’s just a minor tweak. It helps to keep my profile near the top, if the guy is doing a general search based on age and location.
Michael says
Can’t quite figure out where to post this, so it’s going here. How do most people search for people on Match.com? Do they search via activity date? Newest first? Just the default “Match picks” mode? A different way?
I search for women between 32 and 33, living within 20 miles.
JB says
^^^^^^^^^^
32 and 33 !!!!!! …you’re kidding right ??
Rick says
Jennifer – Actually, the conclusions I’ve drawn about why internet dating hasn’t worked for me do seem representative of what most men go through. A few Google searches about online dating or reading many of the above posts seem to reinforce my opinion. And, that’s all it is, my opinion; based upon my own life. You are certainly right that there are other types of girls online dating then those I have met. The world is a big place. But they do seem to be the exception, not the rule. If a guy were to ask me what I think of online dating, I would share with him my experiences. They are the only truth I know. I wouldn’t share with him what ’potential experiences’ I think are out there. I’d tell him about my actual interactions and dates, and the conclusions I have come to based upon them. Believe me, and I can’t stress this enough, I hold out hope for the type of girl you described. Best of luck to us all in the New Year.
Ava says
Rick #124
If the women you encounter online are so bad, why aren’t you dating one of your many high-quality female friends?
tony says
is online dating a good thing or a bad thing? it depends – are you male or female? for most men it is not very good and heres why:
-Far fewer females than males, usually its anywhere from 2x more men up to 10x as many males as there are females
-Of the women that do post, the percentage of attractive women is much smaller than the percentage of attractive women out in the real world. ( to test this brows a dating site, then walk down a crowded street and compare)
-add to this that on some site many female profiles are fakes made by the site to attract males. Many are also fakes that spam once they get your email (especially CL where almost all the W4M are spam)
For women on the other hand.. it might not be so bad, even pretty good maybe.
– the biggest complaint from women is that its not easy to find the perfect guy (but are the choices available online so much worse than (irl))
+ women get messaged often, get replies to thier messages and can go on dates if they choose ( my guess based on the numbers discrepency).
scott (second) says
So i have decided to use this online dating to see what it’s albout
i have managed to get replies within four or six emails sent to different woman
but how, i had to change my strategy a few times to be successful.
Here’s one i tryed, you have imagen that you are in a bar having a drink and you’re approaching her for example
You see a cute girl stood at the bar you walk up to her and say your icebreaker she talk’s to you and after she has finnished look her in the eye’s you say “well it was nice talking to you”(not sarcastic but sincere) you then shake her hand and turn around to talk to someone else, to her it’s like rejection so she trys to engage in conversion again.
So you find a cute girl on the intrernet you click on her proflie you read it hopfully its only short you send her the icebreaker(find something in her profile you can use) then wright “iv just read your proflie”, so this is like she’s taking to you in the bar(your reading her prolie “im anna i like, movies, cinema, frends…….”)
then you wright “we just are’nt a very good match come to think of it, but good luck anyway” (she will see this as rejection) then send it. With in 20 minutes she read my profile and sent me a message, ok this won’t always work, but it’s a good way to get her attention.
The message read “how dare you, who do you think you are sending that as a first message”
What’s this saying “why did you reject me” she’s also curious. You send a message back saying “Your proflie just has no depth, more depth creates more interest, Tell me something interesting about yourself” by doing this you see your setting the standerd,
What your saying is your looks dont mean anything to me, and what you said in your poor profile is’nt going to cut it. The thing is she read my profile so if she was’nt interested why send the message in the first place, most people wouldn’t even bother. Sound’s like misdirection, remember action’s speak louder than words.
Diane says
It worked for me. It took 4 men to get the right one at number 5. The first man liked to dress up in womens clothing, the second one forgot to tell me he was married and living in a camper in his soon to be x's backyard, the third one was ok but had 40 yr. old "kids" still living at home with him and the next one city hunted and bleached animal skulls!!
The 5th man and I hit it off. He was very persistant and really went after me. We have been together for 2 yrs. and live together and are engaged so yes it can work.
Mimi says
Vino,
So this mean that even if I’m an attractive 29 years-old woman, who’s got a great job and is a single mother should be ruled out just because I decided to be responsible and carry on with the consequences of my actions or because once I divorced I kept custody? Does this mean that the 70% of single moms you’re talking about don’t have the same right as you or anyone else to find love and start anew?
My opinion is totally based on presumptions but after reading what you wrote, I think I know why you’re still single.
starthrower68 says
@Diane #140 –
You’ve only had to go through 5?
Karl R says
Mimi asked: (#141)
“Does this mean that the 70% of single moms you’re talking about don’t have the same right as you or anyone else to find love and start anew?”
Dating isn’t a right. Dating isn’t egalitarian. Dating is millions of people making individually biased decisions.
If you’re attractive, you have an advantage. If you’re unattractive, you’re at a disadvantage. This pattern applies across many traits.
As a single mother, you probably will be ruled out by a number of men like Vino. It doesn’t matter whether you “should be ruled out”. Some men will rule you out. That doesn’t mean you can’t find love. It does mean that it might take you longer.
If you don’t want it to take longer for you, then there is an easy solution: don’t rule out as many men as other women do.
sayanta says
Vino, at #14-
I don’t know if you’re on this blog anymore, but I’m curious- if women aren’t supposed to use flattering adjectives to describe themselves, how exactly ARE they supposed to describe themselves? From what you’ve written, you seem to have knocked out EVERY member of the female population.
Also- you’ve said women who are emotionally/physically healty don’t do the online thing. What about men? I’m assuming it’s the same there. You’re online dating- are you categorizing yourself as unhealthy as well? If so, how do you expect to find a healthy woman?
Again- don’t know if you’re still reading, so it’s likely that my questions will remain unanswered…
Selena says
Re:#141
No, it means no such thing. Being a single mom means men like Vino will automatically weed themselves out as your dating prospects. Which is a GOOD thing. And a big time saver as well.
Karl R says
sayanta, (#144)
Evan can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe he advises that you not use any adjectives to describe yourself in your profile.
And I believe Evan booted Vino from the blog over a year ago.
sayanta says
#146, Karl-
Oh, yeah I know that. I’m not an adjective fan myself- it’s just the way Vino was expressing himself- it just came across as kind of misogynistic. Booted from the blog? Really? I mean, don’t agree with his comments, but it seems that then half the people here should have been booted- lol.
Chris says
@Mimi
I don’t think it makes any sense to pick on Vino. Obviously there are men and women out there who are less than completely considerate and open-minded. Isn’t it healthy to get the perspective of someone like that on a site like that?
And I do not think that Vino said anything that objectionable. Except for people at the bottom of the barrel, everyone has standards. As Karl and Sayanta have said, being in a relationship isn’t a right, but a single mom is a single mom as a result of her own choices, someone who is “ugly” or fat (things that you apparently didn’t have a problem with) just inherited bad genes. And frankly, a single parent’s lifestyle is going to be very different from a non-parent’s.
So this mean that even if I’m an attractive 29 years-old woman, who’s got a great job and is a single mother . . . Does this mean that the 70% of single moms you’re talking about don’t have the same right as you or anyone else to find love and start anew?”
Unless you believe that only successful and attractive people have a “right to start anew,” what moral difference does it make if you’re attractive or not or successful or not?
The only thing that’s unfair is how moms usually do A LOT more childrearing after a separation. Single dads, whose custody might be a few days per month or nothing at all, thus tend to have it a lot easier with geting back into relationships. One night/six night splits are unfair (though often willingly chosen), but the unfairness comes from the father, not men the mom would like to date.
sayanta says
I don’t know if this has been discussed before, so my apologies. But probably the biggest ‘annoyance’ to put it mildly, is getting a bazillion winks and only a handful of e-mails on a paid site. But when I was on POF, it was a bazillion e-mails and a handful of winks (same pics by the way). Oh, the irony.
hiker says
I’ve been on and off dating sites both paid and free and found my results to be very luke warm. I thought I had caught a very nice fish on POF and we dated for about a month and a half and then she freaked out and hopped off the hook. I have all but given up on the whole thing. I have a decent profile, recent photographs and still nothing. I really think that all of us, myself included, have a checklist of the type of person we want to be with. And some of us that have been divorced seem to be a little more picky. We know what we want and there is no sense in settling for someone that does not meet our standards. The whole online thing simply perpetuates this the idea. Where else can you look at a persons picture and simply reject them without even talking to them. Or you can read someone’s profile and then reject them because he or she is a certain height or weight or have the same education level or make a certain amount of money. Oh well I think I’ll try meeting people the old fashioned way. But gasp, that means I’d have to leave the house and actually talk to them. I really wish I could teleport myself back to the eighties when the dance clubs in my city were hopping and it was so much easier to talk to women. Clubbing today is a young man’s game and besides most of them 1) don’t know how to dance and 2) are meat-heads or ditzes.
Karl R says
After reading an OkCupid blog post discussing how poorly Match.com and eHarmony performed, I decided to do some fact-checking.
Info taken from eHarmony’s website:
“With over 15K new members joining everyday and 236* of them getting married each day; it’s easy to see why eHarmony is a brand people trust with their most important life decision”
* The source was a survey of 7,135 people who got married.
236 / 15,000 = 1.57%
eHarmony caters exclusively to people who are serious about getting married, yet only 1.6% end up getting married.
Info taken from a Match.com advertisement:
“12 couples got married or engaged today thanks to Match.com.”
“Engage 2.8 million Match.com users who connect online and meet offline.”
Assuming that the source of the “12 couples” was from the same survey of married people…
12 couples = 24 people per day = 8,760 per year
8,760 / 2,800,000 = 0.64%
Of Match.com’s 2.8 million users, only 0.6% get married each year.
The same Match.com advertisement said:
“56 million+ first emails sent per year”
56 million emails / 4,380 marriages = 12,785
For every marriage, 12,875 first emails were sent.
At least Match.com was smart enough to drop this information from their advertisments.
Of the 88.9 million single people in the US, 4.4 million got married (during the same year as eHarmony’s survey).
4.4 million / 88.9 million = 4.9%
If you’re single, your chance of getting married is 4.9%, regardless of whether you use online dating.
No wonder so many of us say that we do better offline than online.
hiker said: (#150)
“I think I’ll try meeting people the old fashioned way. But gasp, that means I’d have to leave the house and actually talk to them.”
It might improve your odds.
A-L says
RE: Karl’s #151
How many of Match’s 56 million e-mails were spam? For instance, “I think you’re hot. Call me at xxx-xxxx,” or some such garbage. I suspect that’s a large percentage, and it might improve Match’s odds. But wow, makes me feel lucky I didn’t have to wade through 12,000 some e-mails!
hiker says
Match is a complete joke. I have a pretty good profile, current photographs and I even change it from time to time. I send notes to those I am interested in and occasionally they will respond and then all communication stops. And just for the record I usually keep the conversation about things in their profiles and never anything vulgar or sexually explicit. But a lot of the time the women will not respond and what’s worse will not even view my profile. I used to worry about it but now I don’t even give half the women in my area a second thought. If they view my profile and don’t email me or even wink I take that to mean they weren’t interested.
The only criteria I have in my profile that might eliminate some of the women online is that I would like to date has to be physically fit or at least trying to be. None of the other aspects such as income, job, or religion will eliminate a person from a possible date/relationship. I think some women have unrealistic expectations and pass over many a guy because they don’t make enough money, aren’t into travel(which takes $$), or even don’t own a home.
@ Karl R #151, thanks for posting that and you are absolutely correct getting out to meet people the old fashioned way will greatly improve your odds. Trying to find love online does nothing but deflate a person’s confidence.
hiker says
And just so you know many of the same people on Match also can be also found on POF and even though this is a free site you have to wade through a lot of “non-keepers.” I imagine a lot of people on POF actually believe they’ve got a better chance of finding love. The site is free so you can imagine the “quality” of people that entices. And the forums are full of both men and women complaining about the type of people found on the site. But what they tend to forget is that you get what you pay for on POF which equals “Nothing.”
BeenThereDoneThat says
TO Hiker
Just a thought: if I read a guy’s profile and he has a list of very specific things he wants in a woman; I’ll not wink or send an email even if I am interested because he’s eliminated me in some way in his list.
hiker says
I have one thing on my list – compare to some women that have a laundry list of things they want. Sorry I am not going to date someone that doesn’t at least take care of themselves physically. And if you don’t email/wink oh well I wish you the best of luck in finding that match that will not eliminate you in some way.
Sayanta says
BTDT-
Yeah- me too. THe problem is that a lot of guys also have an incessant amount of ‘shoulds’ in there profile. If a man’s telling me how I ‘should’ be…um, no.
Problem is, I’m looking for men of my particular race and faith, and they’re the ones who are the most demanding, online at least. lol
A-L says
Sayanta,
Have you ever looked at the Indian matrimonial websites? I don’t know if they’re kind of like a dating service for marriage-minded Indians, or if it’s more of a marriage-matchmaking service (former allowing for a longer dating relationship than the latter is the distinction I’m trying to make between the two), but I bet you’ll find more guys of South Asian descent who share your faith.
hiker says
Well then it seems that we are all doomed – And if you tell me that women don’t have a incessant list of “should be” then you need to check some of the profiles your fellow women are posting. It’s alright for a woman to skip a guy by if he doesn’t make 100K and yet I get lambasted because I state in my profile that I would like to date a woman that is physically fit. And if you read my post I said the only criteria I had was that she has to be physically fit or at least trying to be. Okay maybe I shouldn’t have said “has” but my point is which each have our standards and since I work out it seems rational to date some one that has the same mindset.
Selena says
hiker,
Have you tried meeting women at your health club? Through sports? Maybe a company softball team or something similiar?
Sayanta says
A-L-
Yeah, I’ve tried those sites- the problem (ah, there’s always one of those, aren’t there ;-)) with them is they attract mostly men who have just come to this country and have way more conservative values than I do. And there are plenty who really are just looking for a green card.
I don’t mean conservative as in Democrat v. Republican, but more toward how they view women.
I don’t know- it does look like I have to make a compromise somewhere, just don’t know what it should be.
Oh- A-L- I am soo sorry if I asked before- there are so many posts here I lose track, but how long were you online dating before finding your man?
C. says
I don’t think anyone should rely completely on just one way to meet people. I just started online dating, but still on the look out offline as well. I think online is a good way to broaden the field, and is really no different than introducing yourself to someone in the gym/bar/grocery store.
A-L says
RE: Sayanta‘s #161
I began online dating in the fall of 2006. I continued, off an on, until January 2009 at which point my fiance and I were exclusive. And during those 26 months I probably had an online subscription about 2/3 of the time.
Good luck with your search. Just from your posts I can tell that you’ve put a lot of thought into what you want out of the dating world, and what you want out of a relationship, both of which will help you a lot.
Sayanta says
A-L-
Thanks for your sweet words… well, I hope it works out. If not, there’s always the Buddhist nunnery. ;-p
hiker says
#160 Selena, the health clubs are not exactly conducive to meeting women. Sure there are a lot of females that work out but if they are like me the gym is a place to work out not to socialize. Haven’t tried participating in sporting clubs. Played hockey for awhile but it was all dudes so no luck there.
#162 C, I am beginning to realize that the chances of meeting a match on line is getting slimmer and slimmer. So I’ve joined some meetups in an attempt to build but my dating confidence. Online you can type the best email, have a decent profile (minus the criteria because heaven forbid you reject someone that might be interested in you) and yet get no responses. And it has also become apparent to me that the written word can sometimes be misconstrued and what you thought was humor backfires.
Sayanta says
I think the biggest problem with online dating is because it’s lets face it- shopping for humans- and therefore DE-humanizing in a lot of ways, people don’t know what the proper etiquette is, and feelings get hurt that way.
For example, if a guy waits 4 days to e-mail me- I consider that rude. But apparently guys don’t. So, who’s right?
And there’s some outright weird behaviour that makes you have second thoughts about someone. Case in point, a guy who e-mailed me wants to get together soon- but instead of taking initiative or answering my e-mail, he keeps looking at my profile every day! Maybe he is a good guy? I don’t know… but this weird behavior has made me write him off. I’m sure other people probably think the same way.
BeenThereDoneThat says
I know I have sometimes waited 4 days before responding although not because I was waiting for 4 days to pass. Recently, work was very hectic and home was pretty busy and I didn’t even check email for a week. So I give people a pass if they don’t respond quickly.
Hiker: I agree, humor can be misconstrued! I either make it so outlandish that it can only be taken as a joke or I’ll say right in the email that I’m just kidding. And I too have written men email’s and not gotten any response which is why I always respond to a nicely written email. I usually respond to one liners with a simple thank you. I don’t respond to flirts/winks.
starthrower68 says
Hehehehe all I’ve noticed is that there are an awful lot of us who are single on these sites and everbody is rejecting each for one reason or another, some good, some not so good. Oh well, what are ya gonna do…..
Karl R says
Sayanta said: (#166)
“people don’t know what the proper etiquette is,”
“So, who’s right?”
I would agree with that. I would extend that to include you and I as people who don’t know what the proper etiquette is.
Etiquette is a set of expectations of behavior based on the social norms for a group, society or social class. If you think of an online dating site as a group, people enter that group with no concept of what the social norms are, or how those norms might differ from typical dating. If a dating site has a typical turnover of 6 months, people may have an idea of the norms by the time they leave. Since there’s a rapid turnover, there’s always a sizeable segment of the group that has differing opinions about what the expectation of behavior should be.
Until enough people have the same expectation, we don’t know who is engaging in proper etiquette. We’re just taking our best guess.
Sayanta said: (#166)
“And there’s some outright weird behaviour […] instead of taking initiative or answering my e-mail, he keeps looking at my profile every day!”
I think you’re trying to read too much into a situation where you have very little information.
One woman I dated would send 2 page replies to each of my emails, always within an hour of when she received them. Someone could assume that she was desperately waiting by the computer for my emails.
In reality, she was unemployed and bored. She was spending most of her time online (pursuing job leads, making a little money on eBay or just entertaining herself) and reading / replying to my emails was an interesting diversion.
When you understand her perspective, her behavior seems completely rational.
Star says
I am a 39 year old woman, that was recently divorced. I tried 3 sites of online dating…went out with 4 men, 3 that were my exact age and one that was 49. I am now living with one of the men my age, been dating for 9 months and the future is good. My live-in was doing online dating for quite some time before he met me. Maybe we got really lucky or maybe we had realistic expectations, were honest from the start and made each other a priority. My experience with online dating, though short (only about 2 1/2 months) was positive and I think it’s possible to find a compatible match if that is what you truly want.
Golden Child says
i will say that online dating is a gamble. I was on match.com for a year and out of the dozens of women I messaged, only two responded. Although I did get both of their phone numbers, I never went out on a date with either of them because of complications. The second girl who I was going to go out with I cut contact with because I had just lost my job and had become broke :-(.
I think there is no universal standard of what every woman considers to be an attractive dateable man. Similarly, a woman you might find attractive may be completely repulsive to me and many others. Some women think I am an adonis and other women think I am as appealing as soiled kitty litter. Some girls like Black guys, some girls like White guys. Some girls want a rich guy, others just want a companion and don’t care. I believe that there is someone for everyone. I am 6’1″, many women tell me I am attractive and I am college educated. I am only in my mid 20’s and working on getting my career started.
I do believe that women have the upper hand in online dating. However, women have the upper hand in dating, period. Women choose who they want to date. Earlier this year when I was working, I must have gotten over 20 phone numbers from 20 different women from bars, parties, concerts and just about and about in public places over a 3-4 month period. None of these women were stunningly beautiful, unique looking or seemed interesting, they were mostly ego boosts. Only ONE of those women responded to any of my calls and text messages and went out on dates with me. I cut her off because I wasn’t that into her.
Denise says
Although it feels like women have the ‘upper hand’, I think you would find women that would say the exact opposite, that men have the ‘upper hand’.
So what that says to me is this is just the way humans are built and the way dating and mating works. We can sit around and say it SHOULD be different, and the person could be ‘right’ in theory, but that’s wishful thinking. Do we want to be RIGHT or do we want to be HAPPY?
Dating/mating is a dance, it is a game (a fun game), each person has their ‘role’. In my opinion, the man’s job is to pursue, and the women’s job is to be open to that pursuit.
Noori says
After reading many of your responses, I have to say, WOW!
I have many many friends who have done the online dating thing, and most of them are all married to their spouses they met through the Internet. All of them met each other on different dating and matrimonial websites. It took them a while, some it took a year to find the other online, and for some it happened within a few months. I have also had friends who have tried online dating and gone on a few dates, but nothing was successful. I have personally tried online dating, but it has not worked for me. I actually get rejected instead and people look at my profile and pass on. Makes me wonder if there’s something wrong with me and so I’ve just decided to pass on the whole online dating thing. I do understand however, that most people don’t pay to be on a website so they can’t really initiate anything, and I have also seen some people put out their email addresses as a message that the dating website does not notice, in the hopes that they don’t have to pay and have people figure out how to email them instead to get in touch with them. Either way, unfortunately for me, it never worked. I guess I am unappealing because I’m a tad overweight and no one can tell that I am actually working out, eating healthier and losing weight and am not some fat thing. Oh well, to each his own. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
I feel that online dating is more about who you are attracted to before you read anything else about them. And I was never that one girl that men would write emails to, so for those of you men who say women have the upper hand, this girl does not.
Here is my take on dating. It doesn’t matter whether you meet this person online, or in any place. Online dating and meeting someone in the real world outside of the Internet is essentially the same. The only difference is that most people can lie on the Internet about their physical appearance (not their personality because you have to be able to tell that when you talk to them anyway offline or online) and say that they are very tall, or very lean, etc., and when you meet them, they turn out to be someone else completely (can be a scary thing and has happened before to a couple friends who went through unsuccessful online dating). At least meeting someone in person, you already seen their physical self right there, so they can’t lie about their height or how they look like. And either way, online dating and dating offline both take many risks that are involved.
So this is my take on online dating through my eyes. For some it’s successful and for many others it is not. It depends on how you rock the Internet. I also think it’s about luck….if you’re lucky, you will meet a great person online. I have not been lucky. I am trying to see what the dating life is like offline but so far, no luck there either. That’s also because I have religious and cultural restrictions so it’s harder for me to find someone than for the average person who has no restrictions.
Thanks.
Denise says
I had an experience this weekend I wanted to share that turned really hit home for me in regard to the concept of dismissing men/women too easily in on line dating.
This is by NO means a dismissal of on line dating, it’s just a re-iteration from my point of view about the human experience and on line dating.
The FIRST step of in-person courting is PHYSICAL ATTRACTION, testing the man, encouraging him. In on line dating, this ends up being the SECOND step, when the in person meeting takes place. So you can see, the steps are out of order in on line dating.
I met a man on line a couple of months ago. He’s 6 years older than me. We had a good first meeting, and he pursued for more dates. He is a man of very good character, good personality, easy to talk to–and he was into me. I really make an effort to give men a chance, to see if that connection can grow–we went on 5 or 6 dates. I ended up not continuing to see him because I just wasn’t feeling that physical connection, like I wanted to cuddle up with him much less have sex with him. I felt bad about this yet again….why am I so picky? Why am I not feeling that physical attraction?
I was out this weekend at an event where there were single men (and it wasn’t a bar, although there was alcohol being served). I ended up meeting a man, who I guess was approximately 6-9 years older than me. As soon as I made eye contact, he was over to me to as me to dance. We had a nice conversation, and he continued to pursue me the rest of the evening. He walked away to dance with other women a couple of times, but kept coming back to dance and chat. He was reasonably physically attractive, but I was very much flattered and attracted by his attention and persistence. I could feel that physical attraction and my interest immediately as we continued to flirt and he continued to show his interest in me–made me feel special. I know some about this man professionally, but not a lot about his character at this point. However, I find myself hoping he does call so I can learn more about him.
In reflecting back, I came to realize how much more powerful meeting in person is–at least to me, and I dare say a lot of women. It’s the pursuit of the man that I believe is so compelling to women. That masculine energy and him ‘playing his role’, making the woman feel like she’s special, that amps up the attraction factor right from the first meeting. In on line dating, there’s that first interaction, which is often a bit guarded and certainly not very ‘romantic’ or special. It really can’t be, otherwise it’s comes off as being way too much–damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
My final comment is not to be too hard on women because they dismiss men so easily. When they say they are not ‘feeling it’, there’s a reason for that happening. Often we can’t articulate exactly why, however, I do strongly believe that my experience as I describe above is not unique and is reflective of why women don’t feel that ‘chemisty’/physical attraction with men when on line dating. (Obviously there ARE situations where the woman and man are feeling it since there are relationships/marriages that are happening–has to be a very small percentage though compared to the number of meetings/dates that are happening.)
P.S. I wonder how many of these on line marriages actually will last for the long run. It’ll be interesting to see if there’s a higher rate of divorce or the same.
dutchgirlnyc says
Sigh..all of this leaves me sad.
I am a divorced 39 year old who lives in the most amazing city in the world and I can tell you that despite the fact that I have a:
–a clever online profile (typo free)
–current + attractive photos
–childless
–non smoker/non drug user
–avoidance of schmaltzy language, discussion of religion or extreme political views
–no mention of freakonics, eat pray love, agreements, grisham, ayn rand, etc.
–no cats–but I do have a dog, but NOT a purse sized one who wears clothes
–tall
–employed and financially independent
–no plastic surgery, fake tans, overdone boobs, etc.
I am getting almost NO responses to emails sent and am taking time to craft original emails.
Evan has made it clear that if “one” doesn’t make the effort to initiate contact, someone else will and you may lose your chance. The supply of available men in our “pool” is incredibly small and yet they want as young as 18-27 year olds. I also know he discusses that we all may suffer from having a higher perceived value than we do, so perhaps, initially, when I first went online I did. However, now, I find myself NOT writing to the rakishly handsome men, but the clever and interesting and slightly quirky types and still: no response. I STILL think there’s a double standard against women contacting men, especially in America.
I don’t know why MEN persist in thinking that women have the upper hand here. We DON”T at all. And, men if you think women are ONLY perusing for those who don’t have kids, are uber tall (tho, I’m 5’9″ and my ex was shorter than me) and make $XXXX, you couldn’t be further from the truth. Well, at least in speaking for myself, I don’t focus on those qualities but rather i think is this person: kind, funny, and is he interested in the same kinds of things I would like long-term–stability, partnership, etc.
I’ve never had to go online to meet guys before and now since most of my pals friends, co-workers, brothers, neighbors, frat brothers, are married, paired up or moved to the suburbs, that leaves only 25 year olds in bars (who even if I was, they’re generally interested in 23-28 year olds), what’s a woman to do. I’m not going to join the skeet shooting or golf club just to meet a man.
I can’t believe that a woman would HONESTLY not date a divorced man with kids, simply because that would leave little time for him to be with her. If anything, to me, that would stress that the man is giving, devoted, and nurturing and is putting someone else’s needs before his own. Aren’t those the kind of qualities we’d only HOPE to have in a relationship?
But, I do agree with Even, it’s a numbers game and it’s not. DO continue to be out and about, talk to people, do things, get a dog, volunteer, go to library or book stores, concerts, etc. and attempt to broaden your circle. But also make the best effort by going online.
Giving it a think outloud….but still not 100% optimistic
joe33 says
I run into the chemistry thing all the time. In online dating I get a decent number of replies , though I only look for women I have common values and interests that are shared. They find me physically attractive enough , we exchange e-mails and then meet, talk and laugh have an good time. Then they e-mail me to say you are really awesome , but there was no instant chemistry, or worse just never call me back. I don’t get it. My guy friends don’t get it except to suggest I don’t know how to push the right buttons on a first date to trick them into feeling like they want a second. The women I know don’t get it and suggest my standards may be too low or the women I am trying to date are just weird or something. I only have ended up in relationships one way and that’s by meeting some women and sleeping with her right away in what I think is only a short term hookup (Something I’m not usually into) Then she’s instantly wanting to be my girl friend, and once we’ve been doing that a little while she’s wanting to get married. All the while acting pleasantly surprised that am actually this awesome guy and it always turns out she’s got big problems/issues. One the other hand every normal girl I meet who I’d like to actually spend time with runs the other way.
If I find someone attractive (their pictures can tell me that) , and if I like their personality and sense of humor and get along with them the date tells me that so I’m then at least up for getting to know them a little better. Too bad they did’t feel instant chemistry in the first 4 minutes of talking to me.
I think I wasted all the time I spent on becoming an intelligent , educated , decently employed , considerate person with a great sense of humor , and certainly all those hours in the gym and eating healthy were not that important when it comes to dating. I see fat , dull, shallow, boring men who work at burger king who can recite the “tricks” to lets see how did they so eloquently put it ?..oh yeah “hitting that shit” with smart attractive women seeming to rave about the chemistry they had with these jackasses. At least at first then it’s wow that guy was a loser and sucked in bed. If he’s not totally lame they might even get to panic in a couple of years when all those hormones where off and they realize he’s actually just a boring dick head. Then as everyone around them says of course he always been a boring dick head she can say oh but the you know the thing we had that can’t be explained and makes no sense , the magic chemistry was there. I really just don’t get it. Guys talk about how women are pretty , smart funny , a nice person , interesting etc. Women talk about, how tall like a inch or two matters (I’m tall but I don’t get it) or simply magic pixie dust and how a guy danced around or did some random BS or made some asinine remark that appears to be total gibberish at just the right time. It makes no sense. Oh well I’ll be single and they will be divorced eventually.
Frozen and Fried says
The dating sites have done it for a few people, but you have to look far and hard. It seems that the majority of the people are either scammers/spammers trying to get you to wire money to Nigeria or Russia[too cold] or you run into women that don’t want a relationship–just sex [too hot] After I have been frozen by cold hearted scammers and fried by a blue hot lustful person that left after satisfying her desire, I have decided that I am not going to pay for affection thru sex. The best way is not to bring them home with you, and the Bible specifically prohibits sex out of marriage. I wish you guys luck in all your searches. If a person starts talking dirty, and wanting sex, but no commitment, the best advice is never to bring them home with you or go to their place. It is just harder in Fresno, due to the fact that being a limited town with limited places, you soon run out of places to go to. You can only see River Park so many times.
Savannah says
Online dating confusion. I just got divorced after 20 years of marriage and about 1.5 years after separating (married young — I’m in my mid 40s) and am trying online dating, which I find very, very confusing. Unfortunately, the only guys I’ve clicked with live in cities different than mine. There’s one in particular that seemed to really click. We were chatting up a storm until he started asking me pointed questions about whether I’m ready for a serious relationship since getting divorced. The truth is that I’m beyond ready, but I just said yes to play it cool. Things have been awkward at times (but not always) since then, but have nevertheless continued. Then I noticed that I was initiating an inordinate number of our chats, so I decided to stop and see what happened. Nothing happened. After forcing myself to wait until after Valentines Day to avoid looking desperate, I initiated what turned out to be a long chat. It had been about 2.5 to 3 weeks since our last chat (of this I am sure). After some introductory how are you’s, I get the following “where have you been the last few months? We haven’t talked in a long while. What’s new? Any dates? We met on a dating site. Why wouldn’t I care about that?” We had each had some dates that didn’t pan out, but here’s my question that I didn’t ask him which is, why would he care about that? If he does, then he should initiate more contact and drive the few hours it takes to meet me. This online stuff confuses me!
Cat says
Savannah, #178, Evan’s Finding the One Online would really clear up your confusion about online dating!
You could also check out this blog post. I think you’ll find it applies well to your current situation! There’s really nothing confusing at all about a guy who doesn’t initiate contact or make the effort to see you. He’s not interested! Don’t give up on online dating. Maybe you need to change the site you’re on. Finding the One Online does a good job of explaining how to choose dating sites, how many to use, etc. Far more than I can list here!
Be sure to sign up for Evan’s free newsletter. It comes out every Tuesday.
Tina says
Online dating… I tried it for a year straight. My conclusion? It doesn’t work. I’ve decided to just dust myself off and go back to traditional dating. As a woman, my finding is that the men (and I’m sure some women are guilty of this, too) are always looking for something better. They tend not to want to put much effort into the relationship or are always cruising online to see what else might be out there… this is the crux of online dating… everybody is quick to jump ship because of the endless possibilities.
sparky says
If you’re in you 30s and a women you can forget online dating, any guy my age has a maximum of 30 on match, any guy who does email me are either in their 60’s or just odd! I did go on some dates but only 2 out of 20 guys looked like their pictures, the rest looked about 15 years older. Also a lot of guys say they are 5 ft 11, you meet them and I tower over them (I’m 5 ft 5). I went on match as I’m in my late 30’s and get guys in their 20’s chating me up (I don’t look my age), and wanted to meet a guy more my age. Well on match I feel my age is up in neon lights, no guy my age wants to meet me unfortunately, so I’ve given up after a year of online dating, and back to the real world, looking at the comments about looks like I’m not ever going to meet anyone, oh well … Its not just me I’ve a lot of single friends around my age, one friend stayed on it for 5 years! All of my friends are great looking, good fun but thats not good enough online.
Kurt says
Sparky, I think you are onto something – it must be especially tough for women in their mid-late 30s or older. I used eHarmony for a few months when I was 28 and had some success and then used it again for a few months when I was 32 and also had some success. Now I am 35 and just signed up for eHarmony a couple weeks ago and am amazed at how many responses I am getting. Either the women are doing the “Shotgun approach” of initiating communication with every guy that they might find attractive or there just aren’t that many guys my age interested in the women around my age. I have averaged between 1 and 2 women initiating communication with me per day on eHarmony, which seems crazy to me – I didn’t have nearly as many women initiating communication with me when I used eHarmony when I was younger. It’s gotten to the point where I actually have to make quick judgments because I don’t want to be going on a date with several different women every week. It’s too bad that the women weren’t this proactive when they were younger because a lot of them probably would have gotten married by now.
Andy says
On two occasions i have ran into women at parties whom i emailed on match, but they never replied back. I recognized them but they didn’t recognize me apparently. I had a mutual friend introduce us, chit-chatted with them for a bit got their numbers easily.
One was really pretty, but had tons of baggage. She told me she keeps going for the wrong guy and has been cheated on a lot. Dumped her after a month, she was possessive and had huge trust issues.
2nd one was not as attractive in person. Had a lot of makeup, looked better in photos. Never called her back. Some time later a mutual friend said that really bruised her ego, since it never happend to her before. lol ironic.
Moral of the story, go out into the real world to find dates if you are a guy. And sometimes its better that you didnt get a reply from women you emaiied.
Venus says
My online subscription expires this week and I will be deleting the account. I have learned some valuable lessons from OLD, and don’t really care to continue. In truth I meet better quality men in my day to day associations and now I am more appreciative of them. So though the dates may be fewer, at least I am not subjected to regular objectification and scrutiny by men who I would not even notice in my everyday life. Chapter closed. Moving on to Plan C.
Jennifer says
I’m finding that most of the comments here are very negative, which makes me wonder why so many people who seem just to be here to complain about the advice being offered, are here in the first place? Also one thing I’ve learned the very hard way, yes sometimes people are jerks, but what is it about yourself that is attracting those people? It’s that old cliche about you have to be the one to find the one. Frankly too, attitude goes a LONG way. If you don’t believe you won’t find someone online, cool. Find another way. However for those of us who’s online dating experience has been good (not perfect, still looking for that special someone) our attitudes likely have a lot to do with it? Being friendly, positive, approachable, and reserving being overtly critical comes into play. If you are busy picking someone apart after a couple emails (emails, mind you per at least one of the examples, knowing nothing other than a handful of words about someone) well how can anyone have a chance? You yourself are cutting them off before you’re even out of the gate. So like I said, what I’ve learned is our dating experience is more about US, the person HAVING the experience, and how we frame that experience, learn from it, grow from it, ENJOY IT, than much else.
matey says
I’ve been doing online dating on and off for about 10 months now – just a couple of brief periods ‘on’ really. I’m a woman of 42 and I have no kids. I do it because I just do not meet single men in the normal run of my life, but I have a chance of meeting them online.
I advise men who are not getting replies from women in the following ways:
1. Write a personalised message, using good grammar and spelling, and enough text for us to make a worthwhile response. Things like ‘i’ for ‘I’, sloppy punctuation or just writing ‘hi babe’ just look as if you can’t be bothered and are being randomly speculative. It’s hard to invest in that, no matter how good looking the man is.
2. Refer to us by name, not as ‘sweetie’ ‘darling’ or ‘babe’. I stopped writing to a man who did this because he came across as insincere and as if he couldn’t be bothered remembering my name. These generic terms are impersonal, and the trick with internet dating is to connect inspite of the technology.
3. Choose photographs in which you look sane! i.e. not ones in which you are wild eyed etc.
4. Avoid the motor bike shots. It’s great that your like you bike, but it does not make us want to date you and we see so many of them.
5. Be realistic. Most women 10 years younger than you will not be interested because they want a peer. I don’t write to men who are more than about 7 years older no matter how good looking they are, simply because when I look at their profile I don’t connect with them. They are of another generation. We all feel young inside, but this does not mean others will percieve is the same way.
6. On you profile, don’t tell us how young you really are. We can pick up on that for ourselves. Your pictures and text will give it away. Plus being unhappy with yourself is not attractive. If you are 50, you are 50, so you’d better start liking it because the alternative is not good.
Hope this helps and good luck.
J says
@Lanie So culling “frogs” eh? your approach to choosing a life partner is very dehumanizing and anyone who goes along with her advice is basically saying that a well-written resume makes for a good enough life-partner. I hope you don’t plan to be a mother some day, it would be very painful to watch you cull your own children. The issue isn’t with the fact that there are bad eggs out there, the issue is with you and how you respond to them. Truly genuine bad eggs are rare and I promise you 9 out of 10 times you are culling decent candidates. A woman who believes otherwise is a woman who has lived inside of her own head for too long. And don’t bother me with any feminist rage, the world is pretty-much tired of your victim-raging.
@Frozen and Fried: The Bible also says not to throw your pearls before the swine. I learned that lesson the hard way from a girl who wanted revenge sex from me. I turned her down and I think it broke her. I never could get things back on a friendly level with her because she was a very charismatic and otherwise optimistic person and for that I liked her. She chose a different path that I will not follow. I’m a Christian, I’m a family-man, I love kids, I love women, I love people. I welcome and encourage like-minded people to my home. To everyone else I’ll be honest: I think your ways are reckless and seeded with hatred and fear, I don’t want any part in that.
L says
I thought I found the love of my when I was IM back and forth for 3 days with a woman, but as soon as I sent her my picture, she said “OMG” and click, she turned off her IM. I’m a pretty good looking Asian guy and I fee embarrassed about it. I’ve tried eHarmony, match, yahoo, okcupid, plentryoffish, adultfinder, etc and none of them worked, I wonder if it’s because I’m Asian?
irish says
I am a 27yr old girl and I gave internet dating a go just to see what all the fuss was about.Within my first hour on the site I was bombarded with emails,some that made my skin crawl and some that were just nice and some that were plain SNORE BORE! But on my 2nd day I got an email for a guy which was different and stood out from all the others and so did his profile.We seemed to get on really well chatting online,then over the phone and eventually we went on a date.Our first date was amazing and I’m very happy to say that things have just skyrocketed since then and im blissfully happy and in love with this guy now for the past year so I have to say that internet dating really gets a thumbs up from me!
Phil says
I find it nearly impossible to get a response to my emails online let alone a date. Am I the only one having such bad luck?
Phil
Festo says
l tried this online dating for 5 years now
i have met so many girls
but this thing doesn’t work because most men and women lies
i have talked to my friends and some says it only works for 1 out of 1000
mike says
I am a 65 year old male, successful, semi retired with an active, outdoor part time job. I’ve raised 4 kids,look about 40-50, I’m told-seriously, it’s just good genes, not working out or anything like that. In fact, I look better than most 40-50 year olds these days, because there are so many fat people today. Anyway, I’ve done online dating and encountered, by dating them, women who were prima donnas, princesses, narcisists and just plain wackos looking for attention; in short, most western women types. They were also goldiggers, at least to some degree. I’m used to something different, so I am now online with an eastern european website (a reputable one) and have met more traditional women who put their men first and feel that their men, in return, should lead the family and in short, be responsible adults. Plus, the women are beautiful and totally dedicated to their man-my friend married one, a Russian, a blonde beauty and an electrical engineer to boot. I’ll be visiting Ukraine shortly to meet a few and one in particular. Thought I’d add this to the conversation since it is so difficult to find a normal woman in the US any more.
Andre says
Easy to say: online dating is not necessarily meant to work. It is a virtual place that replicates what happens in the real world: women get courted by legions of men, who usually have to stick it out until they get a woman who eventually gets tired of playing hard to get. Once I posted a false profile: healthy, retired stockbroker, age 60, with all his children married. In three minutes, my box was flooded with women in their thirties who wanted to get to know me. COIN AND LOIN, GUYS, COIN AND LOIN…
Goldie says
@ Mike #192
” Thought I’d add this to the conversation since it is so difficult to find a normal woman in the US any more.”
I don’t even know how to say this in a non-offensive way, so apologize in advance. But, in the context of the rest of your comment, this phrase sounded a lot like “it’s so difficult to find good help these days”.
Maybe it rubbed me the wrong way because I’m originally from that part of the world myself, and a lot of men here are miles off on their assessment of Russian women. I’ve seen guys go on those sites hoping to find a, I don’t know, free housekeeper/maid/cook/cleaning lady that will also look great and fulfill all of their sexual needs, only to be disappointed bitterly a few years later. You’ve got to take it into account that in the former Soviet Union, college education has been free for, oh, nearly a hundred years, and that women have been going into technical professions and working outside of home for generations. They are used to having a full life, a career, interests outside of home, at least if my mother and grandmother are any indication. They are not used to sitting home all day waiting on their man hand and foot. Now economy was bad when I left 15 years ago, and for some women it might be worse now, so they might be looking to get out of the country for economic reasons, especially if they have children. I’ve seen this happen. Most of the time, in the end, the woman leaves if she can. Then the ex-husband becomes one of the guys that go around warning people about dating Russian women – I kid you not, I’ve had guys tell me that their friends and family were warning them about dating me. “Be careful, they’re all after your money” LOL
Just warning you, you may want to keep your expectations reasonable. You sound like you’re setting yourself up for disappointment because you’re looking for a woman that does not exist on this planet in this century (“totally dedicated to their man”? what does this even mean? Any time I try to imagine someone totally dedicated to their man, I see a sheepdog.)
My first year here, at a party, someone introduced me to the host’s SIL, a 25yo woman from Russia who had a 2yo daughter from her previous marriage. Her husband was in his 50s with five kids in elementary and middle school. Found her online. She was a pediatrician by profession – he told her “you will never work outside of home”. Bought her a van, taught her to drive it, and put her in charge of cooking, cleaning, driving everyone to activities, and otherwise taking care of a family of eight. She told me she’d been looking to marry an American man, because she had to get out of her home town. Crime rate was through the roof and she was worried for her daughter’s future. She basically sold herself into slavery for her daughter 🙁 Don’t know if they’re still together or not, I haven’t seen them since.
@ L #188 – wow, sorry this happened to you 🙁 Then again, would you want to be with a woman like that anyway?
Nicole says
@Goldie, whenever American men start complaining about how awful American women are, it is time to tune out.
This guy is claiming that at 65, he looks 40, so my inference is that he can’t believe that the 28-38 year old women that he is trying to contact aren’t into it. I’m sure he looks at pictures of women in their 50’s and 60’s and doesn’t think he looks like them. I’m convinced that a lot of people have fun house mirrors in their homes to always turn to the same tired cliche of looking like they are 20 years younger than they actual age. Being fit at 65 does not equate to looking 35-40. Not to people who are really that age (people are never good at knowing what people who are much older or much younger than them typically look like).
So instead, he turns to women in another country who are desperate to escape, and convinces himself that they really just naturally love 65 year old men (and I’m sorry, you won’t look YOUNGER than a fat 40 year old, no matter how much you think you do).
Not sure what Eastern European country you are from, but I visited Russia, and people were very open about the fact that while there is a small, monied, elite, a lot of people are still desperately poor, and a LOT of young women who have good educations have no prospects for supporting themselves. I’ve run across many well educated European women who went into service jobs here in the U.S. But the point was to get here.
Goldie says
@ Nicole, LOL @ fun house mirrors.
“This guy is claiming that at 65, he looks 40, so my inference is that he can’t believe that the 28-38 year old women that he is trying to contact aren’t into it.”
Oh, he says they are into it… just for the wrong reasons. Surprise, surprise 🙂
I had a 67yo contact me on Match, and then we ran into each other at a meetup group. I’ll give it to the guy, he looked great! Amazing shape for a 67-year-old. But he did not look like a 40yo. He looked like a guy in his sixties in great shape. He actually looked like my Dad! (who is 73 and also in great shape) No way am I going to date anyone who looks like my Dad, no matter how fit, rich and awesome they are, it would still feel creepy and weird! He told me he was looking for much younger women, because women his age couldn’t keep up with him. Things started out very nice and friendly — I told him that I wasn’t going to date him because I wasn’t comfortable with the age difference, and he was very understanding — but somehow ended with me being accused of having “age discrimination issues” and the man telling me that he had women my age and younger wanting to meet with him on Match, (so there must be something wrong with me…?) He fit Andre’s fake profile perfectly BTW: retired stockbroker, fit, kids all grown and out of the house… If I hadn’t met the man in person, I’d have thought it was Andre!
He was actually the second wealthy 67yo to contact me on Match. Part of me kind of feels bad for the guys in their 60s who post their (substantial) income online, along with their upper-class-neighborhood locations, go after women in their 30s and 40s, and expect these women to date them for themselves and not for their money. But they seem to be quite happy in their denial, so why spoil things for them.
Nicole says
@Goldie…too funny.
Yes, exactly. I have seen older men who work out and have all of their hair, haven’t gone grey, and look good for their age. But they do not look MY age (30 something). I mean, even a dumpy guy who is bald at 35 still has smooth, full skin. There are just things that happen to your body that no amount of exercise or surgery can erase.
Do I know people who are 20 years older than me who could run circles around me? Yes. But does anything about their skin, hair, teeth, or general aura make them look youthful. No.
Have you heard of the term “silver fox”? That is what some of these guys might be. But they will NEVER look like a 35 year old even if they can do an Iron Man and the 35 year cannot run across the street.
Did you ask that 67 year old man why he wasn’t then dating one of his many Match admirers instead of trying to convince you to go out with him?
Yes, this commenter did find younger women but I meant that in reference to his comment about how all American women were “crazy” he was referring to the fact that young American women wanted nothing to do with him. Yes, very crazy that they don’t want to be faced with changing both adult and baby diapers in the first 10 years of marriage…
There was a hilarious episode of Sex in the City where Samantha was courted by a wealthy 70 year old man. It was so funny. He was in great shape for his age too, and she thought she could do it but she too learned that there were some things that no amount of exercise or money or charm could do to make that man appealing to her like the men her own age (at the time on the show, 40 somethings).
Vicki says
Online dating is great for practice-dating. A small percentage of online dating site users actually get into a relationship from a date they obtained through a dating website. I’ve dated online since at least 1999. I guess I’m a “serial dater” since none of those first dates developed into relationships. Only a handful resulted in 2nd or 3rd dates. After 10+ years of online dating, I’m ready to quit and find a real relationship. If I haven’t found one through an online dating site yet, then probably that’s a sign that online dating isn’t going to work for me. Interesting how Geoff admits he found his girlfriend after only 1 year of dating online. Wow, a whole year. Feeling your pain Geoff! LOL (Yes, I’m being sarcastic). If only I could meet someone that quickly online! It hasn’t worked for me. That doesn’t mean it won’t work for anyone, but I think some people just resonate better with the online dating “scene” than others do, and it is to their advantage to date online. If you haven’t had good results in only 1 month, or only 3 dates, it’s far too soon to throw in the towel. If you’ve been dating for several years online and still haven’t found anyone, then you can either just kick back and enjoy being a serial dater for a while, or if you’re a little more serious about actually getting into a relationship, you should probably try to meet other singles some other way. Try doing volunteer work, or tapping into your social network. Update your Facebook status to “single and available”, and post positive thoughts about your single life. Don’t post anything negative – your friends and friends of your friends are probably looking at your wall and thinking “gosh, he/she would be perfect for _____”. Post only stuff that would make you seem perfect for the kind of man/woman you’d want to meet. You’d be surprised how quickly single acquaintances come out of the woodwork and start “friending” you on Facebook, once you casually let it be known you’re single and searching. I have to admit, I like “The Secret”, and I don’t think making a list of soulmate qualities and meditating on how it would feel to be with your perfect partner is wrong. In fact, I think it can really help you stay focused on how you want to feel when you meet the right person, so you aren’t distracted by any “pretty faces” who make you feel insecure and unworthy. Whether I’ll “manifest” my perfect partner that way, I don’t know. I know that it feels good to spend 20 minutes a day visualizing how it will feel to be with the right man. Dating random people online, in quick succession, never made me feel good, although it probably improved my abilities make small talk, greet strangers with a smile, be pleasant and nice to people (whether I find them attractive or not) and just generally become a better conversationalist and fun “date”. It’s wasn’t a total loss, but I don’t miss dating online. I’m ready for the next thing. The thing that will work this time.
g says
Well, I keep getting responses on okcupid (1/4 response rate), but they only run for 2-3 emails and then vanish (some nice girls too)… and on pof I get next to zero response to messages I send out… and quite a few messages from women I wouldn’t find attractive. It doesn’t work for me at all! I’ve been on 1 date in 8-9 months of so-called online dating… and the girl turned out to be nothing like her pic… and we didn’t click anyway! I know my profile is well written and it has been faved 3 times!
Another girl who messaged me first and swapped numbers keeps trying to arrange dates, but not keeping to them, then getting in contact again to arrange another date (been going on 7 months with her!) Major doh – major waste of time! I’m sure it’s done something positive for me, but I wouldn’t have done it if I knew how poor the catch would be! I joined OKC and POF to date women, not to endlessly send out emails, look at pictures, get rejected and my time wasted in various ways!!! doh! doh! doh! don’t do it baby!
Oh, but it works for some people. I think its down to looks. But whereas in the real world you will get somewhere if you look OK, on pof and OKC you only get somewhere if you are in the top 20%, if you’re a guy. Online for guys, I think, only works if you either have lower standards or you are very good looking (and I mean very) and just looking for short-term/ one night. My friend got quite a few lays off it… now he’s dating a girl much younger than him and they are very happy together (he didnt meet her on pof!).
James says
Online Dating works but the success rate obviously depends on the quality of people you’re messaging. For example, a guy could get nearly 100% response rate, if he messages ugly women that are borderline clinically obese. On the other hand, if he messages reasonable to good looking, he can expect a massively lower response.
I must say that if you’re a guy, Online Dating works much much better if you’re taller than 5ft 10 especially if you’re in your 20s/early 30s. If you’re a decent looking taller man (preferrably 6ft +) with a well written profile, you’ll likely get messages and a decent response back from your emails. In fact, it’s worked out for 3 friends and one is now engaged. Yet, I must add the caveat that they’re all above 5ft 10 – 1 is 5ft 11, and 2 are 6ft 1.
However, if you’re decent/good looking guy but short (5ft 9 or less), then you might as well look into other avenues as online dating is likely to be a frustrating experience. It simply doesn’t matter whether you’ve got a good profile or write tailored messages, you’ll be overlooked. I know no one who’s shorter than average that internet dating has worked for.
But why is this the case? Women get so much more attention online than men (plus there are a lot more men on these sites). You’re in competition with hundreds of men at a time and if you have a negative physical trait that isn’t generally looked on favourably (lack of height), a well written, funny profile and even good photogenic pics are unlikely to compensate. A women who may consider you offline as suitable dating material (especially if you have lots of other positives going for you), will likely not give you the time of day online.
Sure, a short guy can have some success online if he’s willing to message women who are fat and/or ugly but what’s the point?! If you’re funny & intelligent, join a club and try to meet women in the real world – they’re far more likely to look past height offline than online. Get your self-respect back!
g says
I’m 5 foot 10, 32 and find I can attract some nice women in the real world (just rubbish at approaching for dates + where I live isn’t very social)… yet pof hasn’t worked for me at all. My profile is well written. Its funny and has, as I’ve said, been faved 3 times. Now, I wouldn’t say I’m “hot”… and that’s what I’m thinking about these sites… if you’re a guy you have to actually be “hot” just to get what you could probably attracted walking through a superstore or at work.
Cher says
Wow, I have been reading these for awhile, truthfully I have used online dating successfully for some time, granted there are real drawbacks, my last relationship was wonderful, he and I had great compatibility, amazing chemistry and would never have met had it not been for online dating BUT he never took down his profile, not sure why, he didn’t really give a reason and had I never noticed it was still up and he was checking it, we would still be together cuz things were going great. But I know better so I ended it. But I have met many men, some strange, some kind, some fun, some good looking and quite honestly I have met men that exist in the world today, I just happened to meet them online and most I never would have. Is it painful sometimes, yes, is it frustrating yes, but truthfully, if you are honest in your profile and provide a Head and Body shot for them then you know and they know and if you still want to meet, give it a chance. It really does take just ONE and every ONE is different just like the people you meet in 3D every day in the world. It’s that simple. Evan we love you and the service you give us to try to get us to that next step, thank you.
Jay says
I wanted to advise (Geoff) in his statement that “there’s a lot more men than women“, to the contrary in actuality most dating sites have more women then men.
Use this link to help as a guide. It can pull the actual demographic data in terms of Male to Female ratios, ages, and even by race. Useful guide to help you decide which sites to join.
http://WWW.QUANTCAST.COM
g says
Hey jay,
thats poss a good site, but if there is some evidence on there that says men/women ration is smaller than most men think, it might have been better to link to the actual data rather than the front page. It would be interesting to see.
To be honest most men say that when they do a male (looking for a female) and then the reverse, they tend to find a heck of a lot more males turning up than they do females in their area. I havent personally tried it, but i might
g
Rachel says
Dating websites are for women who are beautiful and men who earn lots of cash if you don’t fit into either category don’t bother you are more likely to find someone offline.
MilkyMae says
Good point Jay. I doesn’t seem that way until you are online for a while. When you’re looking for a certain level of education or certain relationship goals, the number of men gets even worse. When I see someone interesting online, I need to remind myself that the men/interesting-men ratio is not in my favor.
AlX says
YOU ALL ARE SUCH !!!!!!
Instead of feeling sorry for yourselves, why not go learn the new skill you need to solve this problem?
I’ll start you off:
-Most of you do not want to solve the problem, just complain about it.
-Most of you males are beta, fragile, and afraid of women.
-Most of you females are egotistical, demanding, and want to be male. -Most of you speak like scientists – relax! You don’t have to go around flaunting your education.
-Most of you lack confidence, because you lack social skills, because you lack knowledge.
This should clear up about 95% of your problems. You’re welcome, you overgrown babies.
Btw, keep up the good work Katz! Oriental males with White women? The man is a miracle-worker for those males!
-AlX
Rebecca says
I think dating is tougher in a bar or person what are the chances of meeting someone and you don’t know what that person is about.
Atleast online you get the basics about the person before you meet. Yes people can lie but they can do that in person as well.
NeverGiveUp says
Dont blame the tools and system if it does not work for you. Change your attitude and and approach. Persist. When I started online dating I did what mostguys did. Boring profile. Boring email messages. Then I started doing researchbecause I got very little response. So changed profile and email messagesand started getting about 30% response.
Still was not getting response from some really attractive women I wanted to chat with. Made more changes…now I get close to 50% response. Great I thought. Now some of the really attractive women are responding
Next challenge: they get so many emails and there for are chatting to do many guys that I do get lost in the shuffle and our chats fizzle. So my next goal is to keep them interested and raise the attraction level to where I get a date asap. Persistence, knowledge, action is key.
Ren says
I have found that online dating just doesn’t work for me. The men that I come across are only interested in one thing–sex.
What I find laughable is that while so many men have often complained that a lot of the hot women online aren’t real but rather models for porn sites, they should be happy. Since most of the men online are only looking for sex anyway they should be happy that porn sites are contacting them. I am of the belief that if a man is only looking for sex, he should hire prostitutes or enlist the services of web cam porn sites instead of going onto actual dating sites and wasting the time of women who actually seeking relationships. Why go on a dating site when you really aren’t interested in dating? I have found that many men online want to treat women like prostitutes and use dating sites to troll for sex because they don’t want to have to pay for it.
My profiles have clearly stated that I am looking for commitment yet men contact me for sex, asking if I want to meet them in hotels and all kinds of crazy nonsense like that, and then actually get offended when I tell them to go screw themselves. It’s ridiculous!
Anyway, Cilla makes some excellent points about attractiveness. I think everyone wants someone that they find physically attractive. There’s nothing wrong with that. I also get annoyed by the men who don’t take the time to take decent photographs. Some men even purposely put up their worst photos. I don’t want to see the following on the photos of the men who contact me:
-A dirty bedroom/dirty house in the background.
-A picture taken in a bathroom into the mirror.
-A picture with a woman.
-A picture with his kids.
-A picture that was taken from a distance.
-Shirtless pictures, especially when the guy isn’t even in good shape.
These sort of pictures are abound on the internet dating sites and for the record, men need to know that they are an absolute turn-off. Men don’t put as much of an effort into their pictures and I think that they should. We are living in the digital age and there’s just no reason why you can’t take a decent picture of yourself BY YOURSELF without the ex-girlfriend in the picture!
From the Single Parent Perspective:
A bit of advice for single dads with children under 18: You should NOT be surprised that a woman who has never had children wouldn’t want to date you. Why should she? Why would a single, childless women seeking to marry and have kids of her own want to take that on? Why would a woman used to having the freedom of being able to go out on dates and have sex with a man as she pleases without having to arrange childcare or ex visitation times be attracted to a man with 2 or 3 small children? What is the appeal or the benefit in that to her? It’s no reflection on whether or not the dad is a good guy, it really just isn’t an appealing lifestyle to a childless woman.
Just as men don’t want to be bothered with single moms, women who don’t have children don’t want to be bothered with single dads either. I am a single mom myself (my child is turning 16 this year) and I don’t want a date a man who has children younger than mine. If a guy is a dad with small children, I will only date him if he only has one child under 15. 2 or 3? Forget it! I find that a lot of men online who have children are only contacting women who don’t have children. They “demand” that childless women accept their children or get lost, yet they don’t want to date women who also have children and can relate to their circumstances.
The reason why I don’t want to date a man with small children as a parent myself is because I’ve spent most my 20’s and early 30’s dateless and alone or dating men who didn’t want to be serious with me because I had a small child. Also childcare was often a problem so I could even go out. Now that my daughter is a teen, will be driving soon and no longer requires babysitters, I feel that I have some of my freedom back. I can go on dates much easier now than I could when she was younger. I can go out with my friends now much easier than she was younger. A single dad with small kids isn’t available to go out that much and I am way passed my Saturday nights sitting at home watching Disney movies because I have no other choice. My daughter will be going to college in a couple of years and I am ready to enjoy my life and do the things I haven’t been able to do for raising her alone.
For a single woman who doesn’t have children, I’d imagine she wouldn’t want to spend her Friday and Saturday nights sitting on the couch watching Disney movies with her date and his kids either.
Though we as single parents want to espouse our own greatness, that we are good catches and our children are wonderful, I had to come to terms with the reality that I had to wait until my child got older to really attempt to date. Lucky for me I had her in my early 20’s and I’m still slim and look great at my age.
Zaq says
@Ren
Based on your statements in your posts, I think we now know what you do want / not want.
You do not want men of any age who are out of shape
You do not want men who have children unless they are about to leave home
You do not want men whose children have left home if they are significantly older than you.
You do not want men who are unattractive, as you are thin with 32G breasts.
The ONLY men that are left are hot men significantly younger than you, that do not have children who desire an older woman with children for something other than sex.
SORTED ! What’s that – you’re having trouble with on line dating ?
Ren says
@Ren
Based on your statements in your posts, I think we now know what you do want / not want.
You do not want men of any age who are out of shape.
No I don’t want someone who doesn’t take care of their body. The problem with is what? Would men look at me if I was overweight or obese? No they wouldn’t.
You do not want men who have children unless they are about to leave home
I said I prefer men with older children or not more than one small child because it is difficult to date with small children. I know that from personal experience. I know what it’s like to not be able to go on dates and spend time with someone for having a small child at home. I prefer someone with children my age so childcare is not an issue and we can go out and have our own time. I’ve spent enough years not having a full social life and don’t want to go back down that road. The problem with that is what?
You do not want men who are unattractive, as you are thin with 32G breasts.
Yes I want someone who is also physically appealing to me. If I’m not attracted, I can’t be intimate with them. Period. Why is it that men can be as they are and have the hot chick on their arm but the hot chick who wants to have an equally attractive mate is considered superficial and picky? Why the double standard? Women are supposed to give all men a fair shake but women don’t get that same concession.
The ONLY men that are left are hot men significantly younger than you, that do not have children who desire an older woman with children for something other than sex.
Again I never said I don’t want anyone without children, I prefer someone with older children or someone with no more than one small child. I’m seeing someone now who is younger than me and has 5 year old–and I DID NOT meet him online.
I also said that men my own age online don’t want women my age, they want younger and men I met in person in my age range are already married. I’m not into 50 or 60 year olds, so what does that leave me with. Since you seem to have me all figured out, who am I supposed to date then?
SORTED ! What’s that — you’re having trouble with on line dating ?
I started online dating when I was 24. I had the same problem with men online at 24, that I had at 34 and that I still continue come across at 38, which prompted me to come to the conclusion of taking all my ads down. Men online more often than not aren’t looking for anything serious with any woman of any age even though they say they are looking for relationships. My younger, single, never-married girlfriends with no children have the exact same problems with online dating that I do. It has not worked out any better for the younger, childless women that I know. Do I think online dating works? Yes, it works for some, but not most, male or female.
I have not even gone out on a date with anyone online in ages because before we can even get to planning a first date they start talking about sex.
You think you have me figured out but you don’t. Besides, why so angry at me?
Ren says
@Zaq,
To add, I have a girlfriend who is 34 with no kids, never married and she still runs into age discrimination, claiming that men online who she wants to respond to don’t want women over 32. She complains the men that she does meet are socially inept. She is educated, attractive, also slim with a great figure, traveled, has a good job and is childless and she can’t find anyone either. So what’s her problem?
Zaq says
@Ren
Not angry at all.
What you want is perfectly understandable, I follow your logic completely.
It is also completely unrealistic
You make high demands for what you want, but say little of what you offer in return.
You talk about superficial qualities. You do not talk about wanting someone who is kind. Someone who respects you.
You must remember that the man will be as superficial as you. This is a market after all. He will want the best person he can get considering his value.
He is handsome plus 500 points
He is in shape plus 500 points
He is young plus 500 points
He is confident plus 500 points
He is financially secure plus 1000 points
He wants a relationship plus 1000 points
You are in shape plus 500 points
You are not young minus 500 points
You have baggage minus 500 points
See the problem ? This isn’t a good transaction from his point of you.
He can get someone without children
He can get someone young
Then we have the scarcity issue. A man with this much value would be in extremely high demand because few men have these qualities.
And the reality of course is that he will have been snapped up by some young model who is actively building a young brood.
The situation is not hopeless as long as you compromise on something. He is young and hot, but he is a beta male who other men do not respect. He’s unemployed. He’s older etc.
Your friend sounds a catch, but I bet she is only attractive for a 32 year old. Sadly she is competing against 22 year olds and therefore loses.
She is single only because she has set the bar too high.
I bet she wants a man who is her ‘equal’. Someone educated, travelled, with a good job.
But she would NOT be his equal, because these things are ‘valuable’ only to women. If you like it is woman’s fault for prizing men with these qualities. If she valued men who were uneducated and unemployed she would get men her age no problem
Ren says
@Zaq,
You are assuming that I have high demands. You speak as if men have the upper-hand regardless of their situation, that all men want younger women, blah, blah, blah. But because I said that I’m an older women who attracts nothing but younger men (as far as single men go), you are saying my demands are high. That is your opinion. Just because YOU feel that because of my age I’m deserving of or able to get only a certain type of man doesn’t make it a fact.
I don’t know what type of people your social circle consists of, but in mine, none of my professional male friends with money are in relationships or married to 22 year olds, nor did they pursue 22 year olds when they were single. Every professional man (or alpha-male as you put it) that I’ve ever known have always dated or married age-appropriate women.
I brought up superficial qualities of the sake of the other discussion–that older men aren’t the only ones who are desired by the young. Never did I say that the things I mentioned were the only important things. For some reason it bothered you that I said that because of my looks I attract more younger men than older. You’ve made that into something completely different.
“This is a market after all. He will want the best person he can get considering his value.”
You call me superficial but you are being equally so. You are saying that higher a man’s value is, the more likely he’s going to chose younger, because a younger woman is a better option to a high-value male. What’s not superficial about that? Wanting someone simply because they are younger is just as superficial as wanting someone because they are good-looking. None of the professional men I know married young model-type women. You live in a fantasy world where you think what celebritries and rock stars get is what all men get lol.
You say I have baggage. Are you referring to the fact that I have a child? Everyone has baggage whether they believe they have baggage or not. You mentioned that I can’t find anyone because I’m not willing to date someone significantly older with kids. Please tell me how a woman having kids is baggage but a man having kids isn’t baggage. Is a man who’s 45 and rich but divorced with 3 kids still considered an alpha-male or does he now have baggage and becomes a beta-male because he has kids? Is he still deserving of a 25 year-old, childless hot blonde?
You are saying a high-value male wouldn’t want me, yet you have no idea what kind of man I’d want. Never did I say anything about what kind of money a man makes and that I’m looking for a younger man or any man who’s rich. I could VERY easily get a 50 or 60 year-old man with money if money was all I cared about, as I have been approached by several of them online over the years. But I’m not attracted to significally older men. And I never have been. Even in my 20’s I never wanted a man significantly older than me just because he has money.
The situation is not hopeless as long as you compromise on something. He is young and hot, but he is a beta male who other men do not respect.
There you go again speaking in absolutes.
But she would NOT be his equal, because these things are ‘valuable’ only to women. If you like it is woman’s fault for prizing men with these qualities. If she valued men who were uneducated and unemployed she would get men her age no problem.
Of all the men in her social circle her age who has the same qualities that she does (which I agree that masculine qualities valued by women), none of them married younger women. All her male friends who equally has what she has married women the same age as them. You make it seem as if men with money marrying younger women is the common occurence when it’s not.
Evan pointed out the fact that these types of marriages make up only 5% of all marriages.
Zaq says
@Ren
Now who is angry?
First of all look at the data – don’t take my word for it.
Google” the case for an older woman” research from OK Cupid dating site from tens of thousands of male female interactions.
“the median 30 year old man spends as much time messaging teenage girls as he does women his own age”
“… a woman’s desirability peaks at 21 …”
By the way that 5% statistic is completely wrong, which Evan has now acknowledged. (EMK note: it’s not completely wrong, Zac. 5% of all marriages have age spans over 10 years. That number goes down as people get older.)
Is this about being shallow ? No, I don’t think anyone is shallow for being attracted to a certain person. We do however have to acknowledge the factors which may make this person unattainable.
What is frustrating you, and every other woman over a certain age (and rightly so by the way) is that men, irrespective of their age, pursue younger women. There appears to be a double standard here.
What frustrates men is that they do not reject women because they are unemployed, or don’t earn much, or do not possess advanced qualifications. They are not hung up on height issues, or social status.
Yet THEY are rejected for not possessing these qualities. They would rightly claim that there appears to be a double standard here.
Is there a double standard ? NO ! – men and women just want different things. It is in their nature to want different things.
Men are programmed to spread their seed with as many women as possible. As you have surmised, men will lower their physical standards to have sex with a woman they would otherwise not commit to. AVERAGE women.
Women desire the best men available – they do not want AVERAGE men.
If a woman wants a tall man, well only 15% of the men are above 6 feet. Comparatively few men have higher qualifications, or a good income.
We can talk in generalisations here. Most women are competing for a scarce resource.
Women’s best strategy is tying down a guy when they are at the peak of their attractiveness – at college. Since then your friend’s value has fallen, at the same time that the men she knew in colleges value has shot up.
The good news for you is that because cash is not important to you – that Pizza delivery guy is all yours !!
Evan Marc Katz says
The real point, Zac, is that normal people do end up with normal people. Not everyone’s in the top 15%, although most would like to think they are. So anyone who experiences this disconnect between wanting people who don’t want them would be better served by overriding their biological impulses and finding a happy, healthy relationship with someone that he/she isn’t wildly, chemically, blindly attracted to. That comprises MOST relationships, including most happy ones. People who go for attraction first often put up with less than stellar behavior in other areas. This seems to get lost by the men who like to date their daughters. If I, at 39, couldn’t tolerate being around a 25 year old for long, how can someone who is 50? He’s either got a much higher tolerance for immaturity and lack of life experience, a painful jones for young flesh, or a very short-sighted world view where he doesn’t realize that in a few years, he’s going to be really tired of the fact that she wants to hang out with her young girlfriends while he wants to stay home. Anyone who makes relationship decisions simply based on biological attraction is going to eventually pay the piper. And all your citing about what men “really” want doesn’t change that, Zac. I might “really” want to kill someone who cut me off on the highway; I can thankfully overcome that impulse to take a deep breath at the side of the road. We’re humans. We’re not slaves to our biology.
f'ed in the A says
Once men lose enough testosterone to stop chasing skirts, they turn their attention fully on working. Working on Any-y-thing. Women, since they equate sex with the love, feel trapped and unloved even though a man loves through his deeds, not his emotions or his penis, and it never occurs to him–because to him, he’s ‘providing” by being useful, or loving.
I’ve watched dozens of fairytale love relationship burn over lack of fulfilling, if any, sex; Relationships where all of the other “perfect couple” criteria were met in spades on both sides. What happened? The physical attraction died and their shared love for Dancing with the Stars and fine wine was not the same as having a rockin’, passionate love-making session. Not gonna happen, if she’s 30lbs overweight with a mustache or if princess is really into tall bikers that talk with their fists and her man is a math teacher.
Zaq says
@Evan
I agree with you. The biology is only trying to replicate the genes – doesn’t care less about us once we’ve done our “duty” . Women therefore attracted to narcissists and men to “children”.
I had a long term relationship with someone suffering from Bi-Polar. Believe me, 25 year olds are far more stable and level headed !
KINDNESS is the most important characteristic we should look for in a mate, above all physical factors.
However, I don’t agree that we can easily override biology. We ignore its powerful effects at out peril. We may be able to suppress the effects of testosterone and adrenaline because they have short duration effects.
However one of the reasons women should not have sex early in a relationship is because Oxytocin released into her brain could induce her to form a pair bond with someone she would otherwise consider to be inappropriate. A drug that makes you trust people you shouldn’t ! The effect of this could last 18 months or more. She wakes one morning and thinks “who the hell is this guy ?”
Once you say that there must be some element of physical attraction – that is 100% biology. You have now acknowledged that we are indeed its slave.
I think it may be easier for men, in that we naturally lower the bar to enable as many viable females to be acceptable. We do not just go for 10s, so we can look for positive character traits.
Ren says
@Zaq,
I will say this and from this point ignore you because you are clearly trying to pick a fight with me because you don’t like something I’ve said, when there’s no fight to be had. You are accusing me of being angry when I’m angry at all. You are the one following me across Evan’s blog to attack thnngs that I’ve said, not the other way around.
My last relationship was with an emergency room physican 7 years my junior who is still heavily pursuing me, yet I am the one who decided that it’s best for us not to be together for reasons I choose not to go into. He’s what you’d call an alpha-male, yet he’s the 32 year old chasing the 38 year old single mom. In fact, it was him who asked me out in the first place, and he continues to pursue me.
You clearly want to believe whatever you want to believe about me and my worthiness if having certain types of men. You say whatever you need to say to make yourself feel good. I’vee never had to date the pizza delivery guy before, and I don’t have to date him now. I’ve dated nothing but educated professionals, most of whom are younger than me. That bothers you for some reason. That’s your problem, not mine.
You have a nice day.
Russ says
I have been doing the online dating service for awhile and I have not had any luck. I am a good looking guy with a great education and job along with a great sense of humor and I have not received any dates with whom I am attracted to. I am a very honest person guy and and I appreciate honesty and I am not looking to get laid, all I want is to meet a girl and get to know her and proceed from there. So far my efforts have been fruitless with my emails or likes or winks. I use the dating sites because I don’t drink or go to bars and I have no connections outside of work that will allow me to meet single females outside of work. I do not go to church because I am agnostic which is where people say is the place to meet single ladies. I’m at a ropes end trying to find women who may want to be dated by me and I don’t know where to turn.
Justine says
I dated online, off and on, for thirteen years, and I remain unmarried. And I’m pretty! And female! And a proverbial glass half-full person (or glass quarter-full, anyway, because I have a brain)! And I wanted to re-marry after my divorce! I accept my situation, but am inclined to think making a permanent and substantial connection via online dating is analogous to winning the lottery. Still, I don’t want to poison the well. This is, simply, my story.
Evan Marc Katz says
Except it’s not analogous to winning the lottery, Justine. One fifth of ALL marriages in the past 3 years started online. Double the number of marriages that began at bars and clubs. If it’s not working for you, you’re not doing it right.
Joanne says
And 50-60% of marriages end in divorce. Lol
Evan Marc Katz says
Not true.
Zaq says
Evan – where do you get these statistics from?
I always ask the question, does this accord with my experience.
I know many of my single friends that have tried online dating. The number that have been successful can be counted on the fingers of a double arm amputee. NONE. ZERO.
I have come across people who have met that way, but then I meet lots of people.
An international study in 2011 showed that less than 6% of co habiting people met on a dating site – that’s 1 in 17. Not 1 in 4.
Most people using online dating sites (over 60%) never even go on a date. NONE. ZERO
Yes, I do realise that you have the tools to “game” the system Evan, and yes 6% is better than nothing, and it IS getting better. BUT I can’t believe anyone reading this blog is going to believe 1 in 4.
Evan Marc Katz says
Zaq,
I’m not going to deny your experience. Nor will I deny the experiences of all of your friends. And if you’ve found a statistic that says that 60% of people who go online never go on a date, I won’t even fight it. I will just say that it proves that the majority of people NEED HELP in dating online.
Still, your belief that online dating is somehow a scam is patently false. My sister met her husband online (Nerve.com). My sister’s best friend met her husband online (eHarmony). My wife’s best friend met her husband online (Match). My childhood best friend met her husband online (eHarmony). I’ve had dozens of private clients and hundreds of readers find their spouses online.
And this study of 7000 recently married people produced the statistic that 17% of all marriages in the past three years began online. Even though the study was commissioned by Match, I wouldn’t discount it. PlentyOfFish has thousands of success stories as well. Personally, I used JDate for years and while I didn’t meet my Catholic wife there, it’s ubiquitous in the community.
And, for what it’s worth, just because the majority of people fail doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with online dating. The majority of writers fail. The majority of people who want to be doctors fail. The majority of small businesses fail. The majority of marriages fail. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t become a writer, doctor, small business owner or husband. It does mean that SOMEONE succeeds – if he’s ingenious, hardworking, persistent, and clever. Same goes for your experience on Match.com. SOMEONE is succeeding. Why not you and your friends?
Not Jerry says
Zaq,
I think it’s possible to do better in OLD than *most*. It’s not so easy, but it’s definitely possible. To be successful you have to make an effort.
Does OLD suck? Yes, for most, because most people struggle with stuff that is required to do well, like self promotion. I used to work with small businesses on that, most owners are terrible at getting out in front, waving the flag and saying over and over “we’re the best!”
In life, lots of people struggle with communication, I knew a guy who said to me he “struggled with small talk”. That was perceptive, I cannot relate because I talk to every0ne. But some do struggle.
When you write an OLD profile you have to do certain things to be successful, and most struggle. Not easy, to be sure.
Which is why EMK is a coach.
OLD is kind of like selling real estate, which is a great paying hard job, but a poorly paying easy job. Heh. It can work, with effort.
The exception might be very attractive superficial women, who just have to put up a cute picture and they get thousands of responses. Apologies to the very attractive superficial women among us.
fem says
met in real someone date?
Im women, 31 years old, working, i dont have social friends for sure, just co workers formal relationship, i have a friend mostly they are maried, or if not maried they are not attractive for me, i dont like party, i have my own hoby’s, travelling, mostly traveling alone.
Thats why i choise online dating, i found attracted guy of me. So far he is Nice, kind, educated, hand some.We usually online dating on a week end, chating and video webcam. We have been dating online about more than one year, we have not met yet. (pitty). The problem we are long distance. He asured me, thats long distance is no problem, there are lot of flight. But i did not expected of our relation. BUt he looks like resist our relationship.
My friends remind to be aware with scam on dating online, but if its scam, why he keeps this relationship. I have no idea. Until now, i m still keep dating online with him.
Paragon says
@ 219
“My last relationship was with an emergency room physican 7 years my junior who is still heavily pursuing me, yet I am the
one who decided that it’s best for us not to be together for reasons I choose not to go into. He’s what you’d call an alpha-male, yet he’s the 32 year old chasing the 38 year old single mom.”
Sorry, but he may be a high ranking male in the OR, but in the mating landscape, a high ranking male would be more likely to (successfully) pursue a woman 7 years his junior.
Unless you are *very* exceptional(and I am not saying you’re not).
“You clearly want to believe whatever you want to believe about me and my worthiness if having certain types of men. You say whatever you need to say to make yourself feel good. I’vee never had to date the pizza delivery guy before, and I don’t have to date him now. I’ve dated nothing but educated professionals, most of whom are younger than me. That bothers you for some reason. That’s your problem, not mine.”
Which begs the question of your expressed dissatisfaction over the years.
Paragon says
@ 224
I can only say that it worked for me(beyond my wildest dreams), but only after I made some rather critical observations, and changes(apologies for the anecdote).
Namely, that it is useful to assume that anyone who is searching without success(like I was), is deficient in some respect, given that only such an assumption can lend to a testable methodology(ie. we can only realistically experiment with our own behaviors – when it comes to finding a mutually receptive mate).
Personally, I observe that the longer someone is ‘searching’ without success, the more maladapted they apparently are, to achieving success – which would seem to weigh against our prospects, the older our cohort(from experience, I certainly found my female peers to be far less agreeable a prospect than younger ones, hence my match in a woman 13 years my junior, being in my late 30’s myself).
So, all we can do is try to position those determinate variables which weigh against our prospects, in such a way that maximizes favorable interactions with the more random variables.
Admittedly, I should expect that this is easier to reconcile for a male, than a female who is accustomed to a more passive
role in achieving her goals(hence I expect more women would rationalize their discontent as a conscious choice to remain single, where it is actually just a convoluted means of reducing cognitive dissonance).
Tia says
i agree with what Evan said about it maximizing our chances, thats what it does. out of 20 guys or girls, 3 of them may respond or you may respond to,and you may end up dating 2 of or them, or 1.
it depends on your temperament also, not everyone is a ” bounce back after a mishap” type of person, after being lied to, jerked around and / or disrespected, some people really are better moving on from online dating or taking breaks.
i think you can become bitter unless you realize what it is, just an oppurtunity to maximize your chances of meeting someone. and don’t stop looking in “real life” go out, volunteer, hang out with friends, etc. dont put all your eggs in one basket.
it is really hard to meet people these days, to connect, we are competing with so much, technology, a society driven by looks, sex and youth, finding that person who genuinely wants a connection may not be easy.
but the good thing is, hopefully your’e just looking for one person, not everyone. I am not saying we all fall in love at the end and live happilly ever after, im not sure what the answers are, but I do believe in love and It snot something im willing to give up on quite yet at 33
debby says
I have been in the online dating scene on & off for almost a year now. When it comes to the men choosing I can see its all about pictures. I have even checked the women’s profiles to view the “competition” and see what I may be doing wrong and found all pics of women laying on their beds or showing way too much cleavage. If I don’t dress that way when I am infront of people why would I post pics of me that way? To get responses I guess 🙁 My thing is …the way I am online or on the phone is how I am when you meet me.
I dated a man for about 2 months and all he could ever speak about was the dating site. Who messaged him lately & what freaks were on there & how women showed too much of their bodies. After the 2 months & still feeling like I was in the running for some prized position he introduced me to his kids which I found to be odd & a week later listed himself on facebook as “in a relationship” but it wasn’t with me it was with a tight mini skirted woman who showed a lot of cleavage. And they say women are hard to figure out lol.
Meg says
I tried the internet dating for about 3 months before I gave up. I’m a 40-year-old above average-looking (at least a 6, maybe a 7 on a good day or a 4 first thing in the morning when my allergies are acting up–haha) divorced woman with a good, STABLE job, a Masters degree, and paying for my own house, vehicle and all living expenses (for me and two VERY high energy large dogs). I consider my build to be “average” because my definition of “Athletic” is along the lines of Olympians and other lean professional athletes. However, according to a few web sites I’ve seen, the “average” American woman is a size 14, whereas I’m 5′-5″ and between a size 8 and a size 10 (depending on who makes the clothes), so how do I define MY build? I am not getting any form of alimony from my ex because I don’t need it, and I don’t have any children. Can somebody please explain to me why when I set my “criteria” for men as someone with at minimum “some” college (that’s after downgrading it from a minimum of a Bachelor’s degree), NO kids (been there, done that stepmom thing for over 13 years), someone who makes at least as much money as I do (in the $50,000 – $100,000 range) and the ability to write beyond the level of a 5th grader, I end up getting emails like what’s mentioned in post # 59 from men without so much as a High School diploma? WTF?!? I’ve reached out and contacted potential “matches” that didn’t even have a picture posted, but I don’t get replies from them. Instead, I get the guys who immediately reach out (some before I even have a chance to go back and tweak my profile a bit) without bothering to read what I’m looking for. Forgive me for my lack of patience, but I believe stupid should hurt and have very little tolerance for poorly-written profiles, guys that list everything they don’t want in a woman, or guys that think only “hot” women are worth pursuing.
Mini says
Meg, three months? You give up too easily.
I tried online dating for about 14 months, during which time I got a bunch of messages from unsuitable guys, contacted a few interesting guys I never got a reply from, got pursued (unsuccessfully) by a couple of married cheaters, dated one fellow who disappeared after three dates, had one spectacular 2-month near-miss (mutually smitten initially, but he got distant and ambivalent fast), groused about how only the unattractive and uneducated ones messaged me, and then met the unbelievably wonderful boyfriend I have now. Smart, kind, sexy, honest, educated, devoted, funny… I’m glad I didn’t get impatient and give up after a few months.
Meg says
Okay, Mini… Any suggestions on a good site to try? I initially tried Plenty of Fish (just for 3 days, so technically that doesn’t count, right?), then was on Match.com for 3 months. The major problem I had with both sites is that they’d come up with a lot of guys with a High School diploma (or less), guys that either already had children or “definitely” wanted them, or guys WAY older than me (no thank you; I don’t care if you’re rich) when I would specifically annotate that was NOT what I am looking for. Let’s be realistic– I’m 40 years old; if you “definitely” want to have children, I think you should look for someone younger— plain & simple (I’m all for being the cool Aunt someday), and if you have children (minors in particular), I think you should be spending more quality time with them instead of looking for a new mommy for them. And when I’d do what I thought was the polite thing to do by replying to the emails I got and telling them I didn’t feel we were a match, then either I’d get a nasty reply or they saw it as some open line of communication and would continue to pester me with more emails or by trying to initiate a chat session while I was online, thereby completely ignoring the facts that 1) I just told them no thank you and 2) it says right in my profile what I’m looking for, and they’re not it. I was fairly liberal in my criteria as far as height, color of eyes & hair go, and stated I was okay with a build anywhere from “Athletic” to “average” to “a few pounds over.” Yes, obese guys are out— sorry. I just feel if you don’t care enough about yourself to do something about excess weight, then don’t expect me to be your personal trainer & dietician because I’m trying to make sure I eat right and don’t go up a dress size, which can be a real challenge where I work. 🙂 So explain to me how to better “weed out” the ones who don’t meet my criteria? I am a successful, intelligent woman by my own right, and as much as I know I deserve better than to settle for someone because I’ve had to continually lower what criteria I had, I also know there’s a man out there that deserves the best from me, and deserves someone who isn’t “settling.”
Evan Marc Katz says
@Meg – http://www.findingtheoneonline.com – It’s not about which website you’re on. It’s about how you use it. There are good men everywhere.
James says
I’ve used online dating quite a bit over the years. However, the only women I can recall who ever gave me attention were either the overly obese or the kind who had numerous children (I’m not willing to go on dates with single mothers, not that they have the time anyways).
Though I don’t go on dates very often from real life, I have gone out with some women who were very attractive. Never got anything like that from online.
My advice to guys: if you don’t have the guts to ask women out in real life, you deserve the trash you will get from online dating.
Also, I’ve tried the thing where I put up a pic of a male model and I can verify women go ga ga for that. What’s worse, a lot of these women are the type who put the crap in their profiles about “want a good man” or talk about how they just want a nice guy. Yet these women will be the first to turn down nice messages from a guy and beg the hot guy to meet them. Are these really the type of women you should be trying to date?
Fiona says
I can’t speak for the US but in the UK the only people I personally know that had success on line seem to be gay men. For women in their late 30s I think online dating is not the best medium because a lot of men the same age think they want someone younger so you won’t necessarily show up in their online searches. In real life though men in their thirties are actually attracted to women their age. A night out last night with a hot 28 year old female friend resulted in men in the attractive alpha men in their twenties pursuing her and the attractive alpha men in their thirties pursuing me. I was a bit surprised about that because I was beginning to think I was not attractive any more given the types of men contacting me online. I think online can really skew your self image of how attractive you are in the real world. In the real world men my age see me as “very pretty”. Online they may not even know that I exist. The challenge is where to find single men in the same age group in the real world outside of the bar scene.
Ellen says
I found my bf online and he told me recently I was the first woman in his life his age he has dated . I retorted – “see how well that strategy worked?!” (he has never found “the one” til me he says). sigh.
I don’t usually photograph well so put about 6 full body shots of me online (and one or two closeups) when I was dating. That way, men could get a real feel for my physicality.
It must have worked ’cause while dating I had men contact me (or contact me back) ranging in age from 33-62! lol
If you are “very pretty” in real life than grab the best amateur or professional photographer and have him/her take a lot of photos til that prettiness comes across online. Btw, I met men I thought were borderline in attractiveness (borderline in terms of what I would find attractive) and often when they showed up I noticed they were better looking. Generally true of lots of folks imo. Good luck.
Ellen says
Oh, meant to include that I took most of the body shots using a time-release shutter and the close-ups were done by professional photographers. Like you, I am told I am very pretty also, but it took professionals to capture it. Once, I heard a model agent/scout comment that the camera just doesn’t “like” some very pretty women. It’s truly a mystery. I only look good in extreme close-ups. Go figure.
Tammy says
I am divorced, no kids, 47, very fit, attractive woman. I am educated and live in smaller city in Canada. I have been using on line dating for about 1.5 years. I have gone on over 40 1st dates in that time frame, so no problem getting dates. Some I agreed to second date, others no, just the way it is.
I have had as Evan has indicated, many bad dating stories, from getting stuck with bills to often, no offer to half it even, sent gross pics, crude remarks, guy tried to stick his hand down my pants at a restaurant. You name it!
I have dated in all sorts of age ranges, some older, some more my age and a lot of real young ones. They all messaged me, I never initiate contact. Call me a bit old fashioned.
I have a put together honest profile with head and full body pics that are current. I have something about me and also a bit about what I am seeking.
I get lots of messages.
I have currently been dating a guy from an on-line site for about 3 months. His is much younger (22 years my jr, oh well haha) he is fun, charming and has a lot of ambition and smarts. Not at the stage of hey lets take our profiles down, but who knows, one date at a time, see where it goes.
I agree with Evan on this. On line dating creates opportunites where none previously existed. I am not, never was a club/bar type woman and to be honest the idea of some guy half in the bag slobbering on me does not seem that appealing. On line dating does allow for much more controlled filtering.
As for family introducing me to their friends etc. hey I am an only child, so were my parents so not alot of ‘family’ here to intruduce me to anyone. I don’t close the door on other ways of meeting people such as through various sports I’m involved with etc…but truly on line dating is just another way to meet people and people you in real life you may never have met.
It’s all about Kissing some Frogs and maybe you will finding your Prince or Princess. All it takes is one. You just have to be patient, at times tollerant and have a good out look on it.
Elen says
Mike, I would like to warn you about the Eastern-European women, and Ukraine ones for that matter also.
I am from Eastern Europe myself, one of the Baltic States, where life is a little bit better and not as destitute as in Ukraine, Belarussia and Russia.
These women know exactly what they are doing. They all want to get married to an American guy and even 20 year olds will not turn down a guy triple their age.
I know a Ukraine girl who’s 22 and his American husband is over 60, it’s creepy…
She only used him to get a green card and now is sleeping around with rich men for money, basically she is a prostitute. She will not go on a date unless you put 500$ on the table.
All those women I know are very high-maintenance, they all have boob-jobs done, noses, teeth, botox, you name it. They look like plastic Barbie-dolls.
And it’s never enough.
They look good, work out and are probably whores in bed, but that is their only function.
A lot of them are scammers also. Don’t ever send money to anybody for any planetickets or nothing.
I know married Ukraine women who live in US and put up a fake profile online and lie about being in Ukraine and needing money and men actually send them money. It’s supereasy, since there are a lot of desperate older single men I guess.
I know men want the hot and young females, but watch out what you’re getting into. Russian women are experts in getting money and stuff from men and they do it so subtly, you will not even realize, they purr like kittens and make you feel like a king.
Unless you have tons of disposable money or very good income, it will cost you a fortune.
Their role is to be pretty and hot and satisfy you and your job is to pay for it.
Oh and don’t expect them to take care of your house, be ready to pay for laundry service, a housekeeper and babysitter, and also go out to expensive restaurants every night. And of course luxury vacations every 3 months and trips to Ukraine every year to show off.
There are thousands of Russians and Eastern-Europeans here and they all compete with each-other. Within days she will become friends with them and the competition is on, so put your wallet ready.
They will seem very sweet and not asking for much when in Ukraine, but once here in US, they know that men have money here and they will want everything and the most expensive and more and more. They will get spoiled and greedy like American women.
I have been here for 7 years and am attractive fit blond and get so much attention nomatter where I go, my husband is stressed out 🙂
For pretty foreign females, US is the playground. And Russian women know how to play it.
RHF says
Why are you people so desperate to be dating or in a relationship? Shut off your computers, go outside and get a life. Love comes to those who stop looking so hard for it.
Rachel says
I totally agree have removed myself from internet dating and have actually signed up to events to meet people in the outside world and to have fun. I don’t think online dating on its own can be described as fun.
Sparkling Emerald says
RHF = #240 – This is a blog for women who want to fall in love. If you disapprove of women wanting to fall in love, why are you on this blog ? Why don’t YOU go outside and get a life ?
AJ says
I think a lot of the guys here are exaggerating a bit. I’m a short and chubby guy (I’d say my face might be high average, but no more than that). While I’ve never really had a serious relationship come out of online dating, I’ve been on a lot of dates, and some of them were fairly attractive women. Of course, when you’re not a 10, you’re going to be rejected some of the time. Honestly, guys, I think the ladies have it rougher than us. We are happy if we’re just dating and new people, while women are judged on whether they can attract a man.
Online dating is what it is, but it’s not as bad as you guys make it out to be. Unfortunately, everybody loves to exaggerate.
Stefanie says
Online dating works IF a). you’re completely honest about what you want, b). you chooose the right site and c). you are both up front and honst with eachother when you start talking.
Sound impossible? It’s not. My first encounter with online dating was through POF. After two casual dating experiences and one lousy two month relationship, I took a break. A year later I tried again, this time on eHarmony. The first date didn’t go anywhere, but the second one completely clicked. He isn’t someone I normally would have thought of as my type-10 years older, divorced, and switched careers from physical therapy to construction-but he is an incredible boyfriend and man. We complement eachother in most areas, support one another in our struggles, and are on the same pagee with all of the major life issues (finances, family, faith, etc). We’ve been completely open and honest with each other from day 1, and in the 2.5 months since we started our relationship, I know him better than some people I’ve known for years. We accept each other for who we are, flaws and quirks included, and can’t imagine life without each other. Considering we’re both analyzers who don’t rush into things, this is a pretty big deal.
We’re together because we took a chance. Goodness knows he had been burned many times and I was convinced that every guy out there just wanted sex (I’m a 25 year old virgin by choice, and people typically don’t respect that). We were both sick of games, and ready to build a life with someone-and found each other. We said as much in our online profiles, and it paid off.
Don’t give up on online dating. It takes time, but it can work.
AK says
Its the biggest online con and these sites only exist to take your hard earned money. Here’s what happens. Girls put on profiles and get hundreds of messages, guys get no messages are lucky get a reply to any messages they send. It works for woman to cherry pick the type of guy they want from hundreds of applicants, its virtually useless for guys unless your prepared to spend you hole life on it sending thousands of messages..
Karl R says
AK said: (#244)
“guys get no messages are lucky get a reply to any messages they send.”
It has very little to do with luck. You just typed 4 sentences. You made 12 spelling and grammar errors. If you can’t write well, women won’t write back.
jack erudite says
this what i learned about onlind dating and i learned it from 3 sociailits and as a reired psychiatrist, i agreee with their ideas. whatver anyone says on an online site, consider it nonsense, everyone is interested in sex although they say otherwise. the real people looking for real relationship speak on the phone. most times it’s one an done. if it goes on for 5-6 months probably the male willl fly down to visit the feamale for a month and if the female says i am interested please come back, there willl probably be a partnership= keys 50-1000 phone calls 1 month with the other person and in some case another return visit. i hope gooogle understands thids is the way online dating ca realll work-flash
hunter says
@236
..I agree with jack erudite….
jojo says
Does it work? I can’t say NO because my sister insist it does. She’s been doing it for 3 years, but still have not found someone although been through a over 100 dates maybe.
She’s got a good career, above average looking, easy to get along with, mid 20s, lalalalala… your above average girl.
BUT NO not for the average and most of you. Also taking luck into calculation.
So after being convinced I tried it. 2 times, first time I got so many creamy emails from people who are double my age or complete opposite of what they called my criteria. I deleted the account. 2nd time, I messaged abut 100 guys spread out over several sites. Some even click “like” or interested in me, but still no response. So what are they thinking if the guys already signed up and even like me? But still refuse to respond to my message? LOL I don’t know.
All I can say is NO I do not know anyone that got married to someone they met online. And I myself have low response rate, forget about proceeding into a date. Did I mention 1 guy ask for my # which I believe is a match. But after I gave the # he went disappeared out of space w never responding again? hahaha. So do they do it to boost their ego?
marymary says
I guess you need to compare it with other “methods”. They say church is good but in thirty years of churchgoing I’ve dated two men I met at church. I’ve taken years of evening classes and dated no men from that. I met precisely one through years of dance classes and that was only worth two dates.
I get that I wasn’t specifically doing those things to find someone but even so I don’t think online compares too badly .
university was good though, but that’s over for most of us!
Rachel says
Online you cannot see if you have chemistry someone, they may look good on paper but might not be the same person you click with. Plus for an average looking women like myself I find it easier to get a man when we can talk face to face than when I am stuck online. Plus as an only average looking women over 30, I don’t get many messages. I actually have more chance of getting a date from going to events. Which brings me to another point, men try messaging women like me; I keep in shape (have a BMI around 22), but don’t have chiselled cheekbones and am very much a girl next door type. If you email women like that they respond because trust me when pitted against the glamourous women on the site they get very little attention. When I was online I would always reply.
Molly says
I had “luck” on OKC when I was 27. It was incredibly simple then; I really had all the choices. I ended up in a 4 year-relationship from the site, which ended badly about 14 hours months ago. So I saddled up and tried again, and whoa, being in your 30s is a whole new battle (I just turned 33). I think I look more or less the same, except my hair being a different color, and I take good care of myself. I get enough views; just very few messages. I’ve had some very attractive male..encounters…via OKC during this period but nothing substantial. If you’re over 30 and unless you’re immaculate-looking, expect to be mostly ignored, no matter how clever/fun/etc your profile. I have been rated, on average, a 7.5 by different communities including OKC, and had a 5-out-of-5-star rating on the latter, but it doesn’t matter. I’m just a relatively attractive, educated, interesting person who can’t get very far. As much as I dislike many of his views, I have to agree with the philosopher Alain Badiou regarding online dating. Still, I’m there. I just don’t expect anything; there’s a quasi Buddhist element there that works in these sorts of scenarios.
Tommy says
I was reading many of the comments here, many pointing out how online dating does not work and how a photo changes the responses one gets. I am a e-harmony online dater and I do not post my photos by default. I am a 5 – 7 on the scale of facial looks, 5’10” and slender / athletic build, slight hair and I am 51. My profile activity, I have to initiate 80% of it at the start and women initiate the other 20% of the times. I do not communicate with all that e-harmony suggest as some of the profile information just does not attract me or worse turns me off. I do not require a picture of a “match” initially, I am happy to communicate if their profile is attractive to me. After that I find after the standard types of “communications” I get many photo nudges for which I will respond and provide a photo. I would say 60 – 70% of the women that I am communicating with will continue, the other 30 – 40% will drop off. For me, this works, I believe the e-harmony model, although somewhat costly can keep one interested longer so that they have a better understanding of who you are. At that point the photo may not be the end all to be all in regards to the dating cycle.
diamond says
I’ve been on online dating for several months its not worth the time and the energy ive invested in it. most of the men or in relationship or married they try to use you for sex and hussle you for money pretending to be interested in when their not its just a a mind game. date hook up and badoo are the worse dating theirs no need to worst your time there you will only get stood up, used, and hussled.
Evan Marc Katz says
Diamond – You’re using a site called “Date Hook Up” and you’re shocked that men want sex. How about you try a different site, try Finding the One Online, and learn how to filter out bad guys before you meet?
Stace says
For me, it took ONE man and the first date.
I believe online dating works as well as offline…
Obviously there are advantages to meeting someone offline but there are also advantages to having an online connection first, especially if chemistry is not front and center.
I am 36 years old and not naive enough to understand that part of his attraction was physical. After all, this is what will separate (partly) a friendship from a relationship. One cannot expect that physical attraction will not be important. And yes, I know that many men find me ‘very’ attractive. I am also educated, successful, yadda, yadda, yadda. However, I am a black woman and I also am divorced with two kids from my previous marriage. So, I also know that to go after Mr. 35 year old hottie may not be that realistic for me. I find that men aren’t as realistic in terms of who is in their league. Let’s face it, you have to be or else you will think it’s not working but only because your expectations aren’t realistic. So the 65 year old who thinks he ‘looks good for his age’ and consistently goes after Ms. 30 year old hottie is simply not realistic.
The guy I responded to was 5’7″ and not my ideal physically (early 40s) and I must admit that if meeting him in person, I would have never given him a second look. Speaking online before meeting gave me another perspective because his personality is so freaking awesome. He is also educated, mature, marriage minded, stable, honorable, and has loads of integrity. What more can I ask for? As a result, when I met him, I decided to give him a chance and now we are very, very happy. So yeah, it’s not all bad but like everything else, there is trial and error.
Anonymous says
I agree with this article. But the demoralising feeling that can be gained through online dating is real. I once chatted to a colleague at work about finding ‘the one’ and he mentioned a friend who had done exactly this. They weren’t lucky, but it turns out they actually went out on ten dates that didn’t work out. On the eleventh date he struck gold. It’s hard work and you need a thick skin, but anything worth having doesnt come easily.
April says
i just got caught up in all your comments and its kinda consoling to see its not just me that has issues with online dating.
most of you guys say how women like guys that are taller and with a good profile picture, but i think its same for you guys too. i am 5’2 and African, i hardly get as much a wink. i wonder if i alter some of the information maybe i will get more messages.
Tia says
it certainly wasn’t for me, and im not being negative by the way. it just wasn’t for me. I just find the staggering possibilities seem to keep men ( and women) in a constant flux of “looking” because although you may be great, he could have done better. there is no such thing as online dating, only finding someone online, but its quality not quantity you want. the numbers are probably pretty small for people who have met that way and stayed together through the years, married etc. finding a date or FWB online shouldn’t be hard. its a market for people, we are tricked into believing we have all these options, when really we don’t. I much rather like m eeting someone in “real life” who sees me and knows right away if he is attracted to me and likewise the rest falls into play
Tia says
I just wanted to add this paragraph I found on another web site pertaining to internet dating ,joe kentwordpress. I think it can sum uup many of these experiences rather well
When a girl (guy) goes on a dating website, she is in a shopping kind of a mode. But when you meet a girl in real life, he/ she’s not necessarily shopping and judging. He/She might have been reading, or thinking, or dreaming, and then you had the guts and bravery to approach her and start a conversation. To evoke him/her. To sweep her off her feet. It’s a magical and spontaneous thing, and it’s completely lost on a website.”
Steve says
Hey Evan,
You say online dating works. I want you to prove to me that it really does, because in all of my online dating efforts I’ve had little to no success. I think my looks are the problem.
Consider the following: despite having my profile professionally written not once, but twice, and having a headshot professionally taken, over 1000 women looked at my profile on match.com. Only one wrote, and when we finally met in person, she decided she didn’t find me attractive at all. If I wrote to any women who looked at my profile, my message would be ignored, despite me taking some time to craft a personalized, intelligent message that went beyond just saying, “wazzup?” In six months of being online, I think I actually met maybe three women in person, and all rejected me or played the usual LJBF game.
I think online dating only works for men if they are at least 6′ tall, look like George Clooney, and clearly have money. Shorter men sometimes succeed, but they still have to be good looking or look like classic alpha males. So go on, prove to me that online dating really works.
P.S. – I notice that you seem to focus mainly on helping women. What’s up with that?
Lea says
I have logged ten years of on-and-off online dating. I am a 39-year-old woman, about to turn 40 in a couple of months. I want very much to find a life partner, but if my alternatives are settling for a single and reasonably fulfilled life or online dating anymore, Lordy, let me take the comfortable single life. Bottom line: Online dating sucks.
I just cancelled a subscription to a major dating site after 48 hours on it. I don’t expect my soulmate to drop out of the sky, a la “The Secret.” But I will take an organic, energized, real-life courtship or nothing at all. Seriously. That is how much I have come to hate online dating.
I once fell in love with someone I met in the real world. For a couple of months before I realized I had fallen for this person, I found him so awkward of appearance that I sort of felt sorry for him. But, over a period of time, his amazing personality trumped any ungainliness in his physical appearance. I began to notice the way he walked–with this wonderful bounce in his step and sense of purpose. I loved his sense of humor. The banter between us just flowed. There was real, palpable chemistry. There was genuine energy and life behind the connection.
Now think about it. I would have utterly and totally dismissed this person on an online dating site. Online dating simply robs you of that authentic experience–that gradual peeling away of layers, the slow revelation of the mystery of another human being, the nuances in growing attraction, the subtle exchanges. After much deliberation, I cancelled my subscription today. I will not cheat myself out of this amazing experience of falling–FALLING–for the unexpected and disarming. It will be that, or it will be nothing for me. And I’m prepared to accept nothing. That is how much of a calculated racket I think online dating is.
I don’t doubt that many people fall in love with folks they met online, and have genuine and beautiful relationships. It’s just never happened for me, not in ten years, and I don’t think it ever will online. After ten years of abundantly disappointing experiences, I think I’m entitled to call it quits. What did Albert Einstein say about insanity? “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.” Enough is enough. I’m throwing in the towel with online dating.
I’m taking my chances on the Universe putting that One in the path of my daily living, or else the Universe providing everything I need to enjoy a life of singlehood. As a fairly spiritually-inclined person, I cannot conceive of a benevolent Universe that would require me to keep beating my head against the wall with online dating after this many years. And I absolutely stand by that.
JB says
Well I thought in 18 yrs of online dating I’d seen it all but alas I was wrong. A woman I had emailed back and forth with a couple of times a few months ago got engaged last week as is seen on her Facebook page (4 days ago) with many “congrats”, “I’m happy for you’s” etc….. including latest pic with fiancé taken on the 27th. Yet not only is her profile on Match still up and searchable she continues to log in every day. Unbelievable!! I’m sure there’s a logical “explanation” …..lol Yeah right. Ladies???
hunter says
JB,
……you mentioned “logical explanation,”……you were never told, “a mans mind is limited by logic,”……get it?…..
Kayley Alvies says
I went on three bad dates in a row also but then the fourth guy ended up being my husband! He lived 45 minutes away and was in the Air Force, our worlds would have never touched if it hadn’t been for ChristianMingle.com!!!
Fearless Fred says
Interesting. Had a few good dates from online sites talked to some ok people no big problems. if you have the patience and persistence it probably works,.My former wife did meet the millionaire of her dreams online and that worked for a couple of years for her. It requires lots of time to say not interested to nice people is always awkward and not the best feeling. The language people use here to label and describe people is appalling and very uncharitable though. Cynical, sarcastic stuff is best kept to your self. I live in a small community where they very quickly tell you to be nice or wash your mouth out if you said what is said online here and elsewhere. Perhaps online is too unreal and fantasy for humans to really deal with sensibly.The pent up dreams fears fantasies and bad behavior all seem end up there.Online dating is no different.
anon says
I’ve thought the same thing re: the labeling that ppl on this board do – I’ve seen nasty comments about women over 40, single moms, etc. It’s discouraging and depressing.
Richard says
I have tried online dating in a small city for about 5 years and have only ended up meeting a few girls. Here are my real world experiences:
Girl #1: A local veterinarian I met on match.com. She was open to meeting after a couple introductory emails. Met that same weekend and spent the day at a local resort town. She was nice, but quirky, more a friend than a girlfriend for me. Ultimately she just didn’t feel like someone I would fall for. Was glad we brought it offline and met quickly. Parted friends, with no additional dates.
Girl #2: A girl that had moved to the area recently from California on match.com. A few emails and she was ready to meet. Met that weekend at a college cafe. Cool girl but she seemed ready to jump in pretty quickly. Was starting over and had no friends or family around. No spark for me physically. Again, glad we met sooner rather than later. No second date.
Girl #3: Local grad student met on match.com. Didn’t want to meet right away like the other girls. Spent a month emailing back and forth as she kept putting off meeting. Finally met at a lakefront cafe. She came clean saying she was trying to lose weight as she had gained 25 lbs since her online pics. I was ok with that as she was still cute. But it was weird meeting for the first time after emailing for so long. All the easy conversation of a first meet had already been gone over. The date was a little stale. She decided to move away a few weeks later. No second date. Regretted getting strung along since she knew she was moving the whole time.
Girl #4: Local retail clerk that was counterculture. Met on POF. Agreed to meet after a few msgs. Picked her up at her house and went to see a local band at a bar. She ditched me halfway through but texted me after to apologize. Didn’t have much in common other than being bored and looking to date.
Girl #5: Local student met on POF. Again, agreed to meet after a couple messages. Met at a bar for a few hours. Went ok but she was much younger. Texted for a bit after the meet but she faded away. No second date.
So, pretty poor results. I did not find love, a long term relationship, or even a second date for that matter. These were just the girls I met IRL. There were a dozen or so others that I contacted that replied back and forth but never ended up meeting. The girls on match.com are more committed to meet, maybe because it is a pay service. On the free sites, the girls flake out much more often. I would suggest meeting as soon as comfortable for both. If the girl doesn’t want to meet after 3 or 4 emails over a week or so, she isn’t serious about meeting. Meeting in a mutually agreed upon public place is safe and easy to do.
My conclusion is that online dating doesn’t work. I don’t have any friends whom it has worked for either. I see the same girls still online 5 years later. Its’ obviously not working for them either. Here’s the problem. When I go to a party or club I know right away if I am attracted to someone, even though they are a perfect stranger. I go up to them and introduce myself and get to know them. Online dating is the exact opposite. You find out all about the person, their likes and dislikes, favorite books, music, movies, their job and life story, all before knowing if there is any chemistry Then you meet them and see if you click. It’s backwards and that’s why it doesn’t work.
Evan Marc Katz says
“My conclusion is that online dating doesn’t work.”
Your conclusion is that online dating doesn’t work for you. One third of all marriages begin online – half of those come from online dating sites:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/03/online-dating-marriage/2377961/
So who are you going to believe, the millions of people who DID think online worked for them? Or your own limited experience? Wait: I already know the answer…
Richard says
I’m certainly not going to believe a study about online dating that was paid for by eHarmony:
It was commissioned by the dating website eHarmony, according to the study’s conflict of interest statement. Company officials say eHarmony paid Harris Interactive $130,000 to field the research. Cacioppo has been a member of eHarmony’s Scientific Advisory Board since it was created in 2007. In addition, former eHarmony researcher Gian Gonzaga is one of the five co-authors.
Evan Marc Katz says
You can be as skeptical as you want; but that doesn’t change the fact that millions of people have found love online – and if you’re not one of them, it doesn’t negate the fact that online dating works for lots of folks – including all of the women on the success stories page above…
JennLee says
It only works for those who are willing to accept that it is not an online store where you get to look at what is on offer and select what you want. You have to accept that what you want may not be what is actually available to you. If you are sending messages to the top 30% but not receiving any real interest in return, then the reality is that you aren’t in the top 30%. Likely not even in the top 40%. I think both men and women who are not in the top 30% are resisting accepting that. In other words, online dating can work for them if they are willing to accept that they have to stop chasing a pipe dream. They have to resist what a natural inclination is, which is to trait it like you are shopping and everything listed is available. You can’t window shop and choose only from the top tier. If you aren’t in that top tier and that is what you are doing, you are wasting your time. The problem is that it is painful for some people to admit they are not top tier. This is the main reason online doesn’t work for some people. I think people know this but they think it is just the other side being too picky. They don’t see themselves as being too picky also.
EmeraldDust says
Richared @ 254 “Online dating is the exact opposite. You find out all about the person, their likes and dislikes, favorite books, music, movies, their job and life story, all before knowing if there is any chemistry”
Hi Richard, I agree that this is the biggest challenge of OLD. You meet a 2D person in cyberspace. Their 2D profile could make them look terrific. “On paper” they look like a perfect match for you. You move to phone call, and at least have the added dimension of voice. But it’s still not a real world meeting. Then you meet in the 3D, audio-visual, interactive real world and it all falls flat. It’s really awkward getting from e-mail to phone and then deciding by phone that you aren’t a match. It’s even more awkward getting to the in person meet up, and then deciding it’s a no-go. (that’s why people -men and women, do the slow fade, the disappearing, make a date for a week later, then cancel by text, etc)
I would actually PREFER meeting IRL in the beginning. I would know right away if I were attracted to him and he to me. (by reading his facial expressions, body language and voice tone)
But since my divorce I have met men IRL and through OLD and neither have worked FOR ME.
But I still can not conclude that it doesn’t work for anyone, because I know couples who have met IRL and through OLD. So the only logical thing to do is try ALL avenues until you get what you want (or give up).
Since I have had MORE dates through OLD (and consequently more FAILED meetings) than real world, I don’t want to completely eliminate any option.
But I think it was on THIS blog that I read a stat that after 60, the ratio of men to women is 2:1. That doesn’t even take into account the ratio of WILLING men. So if the ratio is 2:1 and only HALF of those men want a real relationship (as opposed to just casual sex) the odds are lowered. AND, I’m just not attracted to many men in my age range, so the odds are lowered even more. AND, of that handful of men who I am attracted to, that are geographically close, age appropriate, I like their personality, etc. and are available, they just aren’t into me, so the odds are tiny.
So it’s not the method of meeting that is flawed. We are just fighting against some really slim odds.
And it’s not that much easier for men, because even tho they start with the 2:1 advantage, once THEY factor out for whom they find attractive, who finds them attractive, who’s willing to have a relationship, who’s geographically close. etc/ it’s tough for men my age also.
Being happily single is not the worst thing that can happen to someone. Being MISERABLY stuck in a bad marriage is. If I have to settle for that middle of the road, 2nd best lifestyle of happily single, so be it.
The BEST thing is to be happily coupled up (at my age marriage is optional for a relationship), the second best thing is to have a solitary life filled with good friends and happy experiences.
I think the best thing I can do at this point in my life is create a happy, content single life and stay open to the POSSIBILITY of a relationship, but I no longer vigorously pursue one.
Paul Pugliese says
Hey kids, if it makes you feel any better, way back when 1980 this happened to me. My wife put an ad in a personal section of a local paper. I was one of 20 guys who answered it. I got lucky and we have been married for 31 years, hang in there and keep trying, it is not impossible. Paul
Jenny Ravelo says
I’ve read that 1/3 of people that get married after 2005 met their suposes online and report more happiness. Online dating expands your options, as others have said so you get to meet people it’s hard to meet offline. What we don’t know are is the marriage ratio for online daters vs. the mariage ratio of offline daters, which is important.
As online dating expands your options for good people it also expands the possibility of meeting someone bad. When people decide to create a profile it’s because they’ve been having problems finding someone offline. The reality is that if you’ve got baggage, you’ll take it everywhere you go.
If you’re a confident person that knows what you want, online dating might be a very good option because after you let all the bad fish slip, you get a great deal of good fish, but if you’re someone with issues, you’ll continue to be the “victim” of bad dates.
Celine says
I have been trying online dating for past 2 years without any dating experience before I joined the websites. I dated 3 guys and, I was burnt badly twice which almost defeated me. I might need to work on my issue of attaching people too early too easily. But since I heard so many good or good/bad or extraordinary stories around myself, I guess it is like you said don’t give up is the best option. I have tried going to parties, clubs, afternoon classes and etc, by far online is my best choice. It didn’t stop me from socialising and picking up hobbies but it definitely gives me more potential options for partners.
Thank you for your article. It is exactly what I need for now. Mustering the courage to perservere in light of bad experience. I will try to dust myself if necessary for the future. However, I really hope in the near future I can also write a story to inspire people to not giving up and carrying on finding the love of their lives.
Julie says
Living in a rural area, it just doesn’t work too well. There just aren’t enough people. I joined all of the sites recently (POF, OKC, etc.) and within a few weeks had some boys contact me and went out with some of them. Not my type. But after this short time on the site, there are no new people joining or contacting me. I’m staring at the same profiles day after day. There is no turnover. I’m still getting some new messages but they are all from boys 100 miles away. So, if you live in a small town, there just aren’t enough new people joining up to keep logging in. Another thing is, being honest, I signed up for online because I wasn’t meeting people IRL. And because of this, while online, I found myself chatting with guys that I would not be interested in normally. I even met up with some of them, and while on the date was like, why am I here. So there’s that too. Because I was lonely I expanded my standards and then was out on a date with someone who I never would have normally been with.
Hugh says
It’s not a perspective thing, it’s a fact that by large, women act like “entitled jerks” online, as one self-confessed female dater puts it. They write in their profiles that they are “looking for…” but their version of looking is to sit and do nothing, waiting for men to look for them. Everyone has the right to be passive like this, but it means that women miss out on the best men (who quickly catch on to, and tire of, the disproportionate effort ratio) and it leaves the better men feeling increasingly de-valued, dispondent and less likely to stay online. The only men who are happy to stay are the players, the ones who have nothing to lose, the ones who have less luck in the real world. Congratulations women who play the entitled role, and good luck “finding” the best men without looking.
starthrower68 says
So you want women to be aggressive and be the man?
Alan T says
From a mans perspective, too many women feel that if the chemistry is not immediate, then they switch off completely. Here is a true story; I met a woman not through a dating site, but at a horseriding stables. We had lessons at the same time every week, we got on well, but, no fireworks to begin with. I asked her out, really because I needed to go out with a women, it’s good to get some practise in. The date went well she seemed into me, I liked her she was interesting, but still did not fancy her much. Also I was 14 years older, she was only 22 though she looked older and I was lucky enough to look a lot younger then. I thought this would be our one and only date but we agreed to meet up again, things changed dramatically the next time we went out. We ended up at her place, I stayed the night. For the next 6 months we had a a fantastic sex life, it was non stop, I have never had such a good sex life, I will be blessed if I ever will again. It ended after six months, I will spare you those details, but the point is this: chemistry can happen at any time between two people, girls, it does not have to be immediate. If the guy you are talking to seems ok, polite, attentive and has good manners, give It a bit of time. Even if he may seem a bit boring, remember being on a first date does not mean he is at his most comfortable. He may be shy at first, he may be really into you but feel awkward about letting you know. Chemistry can strike at any time, don’t keep believing it has to be immediate because you kill the date stone dead at hello. If you expect a paid dinner too before you cut and run, it’s poor form, buts that’s another thing.
jenny ravelo says
It’s not just women, men are less likely to approach a woman they don’t find attractive and even less likely to ask on a date someone they don’t find chemistry with. It’s true that in some cases chemistry may develop at later stage, but the more you wait, the less chances you have.
Darren says
Look, guys if you are not ridiculously dark, handsome and rich, do not waste your time on a dating site whatsoever. I know this from experience. I am just an average Joe who was honestly looking for someone to meet and get to know, I am employed and make a reasonable living, but that was not enough. I tried several sites, and by the time I was done I had ZERO self confidence left. I messaged a lot of women, and the very few that messaged me back said up front, I am looking for someone more well to do, or someone more athletic and toned and so on. And believe me, some of these women were not athletic and toned themselves by any means. The truth is that women on dating sites can’t find men in the real world because they are way too picky, and they all come to dating sites thinking they can find someone perfect. My advice to men is just go to the bar, at least there you might have a chance to at least have a conversation with someone. Online is a complete waste of time.
hunter says
….”my advice to men is just go to the bar”….not just any bar..certain bars only…and…at certain hours/days….
Mike says
I have used online dating sites for 10 years. 10 years ago they actually worked. I would send out messages and get some responses. We would write back and forth a little and then meet up. It was a reasonably successful way to meet girls. Not any more. I still send out messages, and still get responses. We still reply back and forth. But at the first mention of actually meeting in person the replies stop. The girls vanish. I haven’t met someone for as much as a simple cup of coffee in years. It doesn’t matter if I suggest to meet after 3 messages or 13 messages. The reaction is the same. In my opinion, most girls online have no intention of actually meeting up in person. They like the attention, the game and the fantasy. But when you actually meet up it becomes real. The fairy tale version of the boy they have been messaging and building up in their head can never live up to reality. People have flaws. They’d rather just live in their online fantasy world. It’s like playing the lottery. Sure, people win the lotto everyday, but do you know any of them? I’m sure people find love online everyday too, but I don’t know any of them either. I still play the lotto and I still use online dating sites, and each week they both produce the same results.
Karmic Equation says
I’d wager that you’re chatting up hotties in online dating?
I’ll also wager those gals used other peoples photos and the reason they don’t meet is because they’re not the person in the photo.
Try contacting women in your league or below. I’ll bet they’ll want to meet.
I’m not asking you to date ugly women. Just stop contacting ONLY hotties. Contact the one that’s a little overweight, but has a great smile and a happy profile.
You might have better results.
hunter says
…Karmic,
yes, I agree with what you said….they say 75% of the population in the U.S. has a weight problem….that includes lots and lots of women, that don’t get hit on….
Henriette says
Mike, I’m sorry that’s been your experience; that sounds disappointing. However, I think it’s not right that “most girls online have no intention of actu
Rick says
Mike,
Try using the pay sites instead of the free ones. I’ve found that on the free sites, girls are much more likely to simply “window shop” or flirt with that being their only intention. On the pay sites, the members have some skin in the game and are more serious about meeting. If you get 3 or more back and forth messages on a pay site, I think you’ll end up meeting most of those girls in person. I have had much worse luck on free sites and when the conversation is stalled or the girl seems to be waffling, I usually suggest a meeting. This has worked well to flesh out the ones that are serious or not and to limit wasting time.
Andrew says
What I’ve done is check the male to female ratio of the free and paid sites in my area. I just enter the same search criteria and age range for men seeking women and for women seeking men. On the free sites the ratio was about 4 men to every 1 women. Not good. It got even worse when I eliminated the girls that were obese or very unattractive. On the paid sites it was about 2 men to every 1 women. Much better. The quality of women on the paid site was somewhat better too. Think of the online sites like separate parties. Would you rather go to a free party of 50 people but 40 of them are guys? Or would you rather pay a cover at the door but 25 of the 50 are girls. I know which party I’d rather go to. Try a paid site with a free membership and then get a one month membership once every 3 months. It will cost you about $100 for the year. The same as going out to a bar once a month for a couple drinks.
Henriette says
@Mike: I’m sorry that’s been your recent experience; that sounds disappointing. If you don’t know anyone who’s found love online then that’s also your completely-valid experience.
I, however, did find love online. The relationship didn’t lead to marriage… but then again, neither have my other relationships in which I met the guys through non-online methods.
My best friend is now in love with a guy she met on Match.com. He recently gave her the key to his house and she’s set to meet his mother, next month. Will it last forever? Who knows? But they seem to be going strong, thus far.
Three years ago, I encouraged a different friend to ignore her misgivings and date online. The first 4 guys she set up dates with either canceled the day before or stood her up. I felt terrible for having encouraged her to try this medium that clearly didn’t work for her. Hah. The 5th guy actually showed up and 2 years later, I attended their wedding.
Sadly, the relative anonymity of online dating makes some people ruder than they would be if they met you through friends or work. Maybe, as you say, some women just go online for the boost they receive from flirting. However, others are no doubt interested in finding a serious relationship and chat with you to see if they think you might be a match. After getting to know you through back and forth messages, instead of politely telling you that they don’t think you have enough of a chance of being love match to meet in person, they unceremoniously just stop responding. But saying they’re not interested in relationships is like a bit like saying that that men who date me and then just stop calling don’t want a girlfriend; they very might want a girlfriend, but they clearly have decided they don’t want me in that role and just can’t be bothered to show me the common courtesy of saying goodbye and wishing me well.
karen says
Online dating worked once for me … in 2006 … when I turned 50. It was like magic … I posted my profile and hours later got a wonderful email (complete with red flags that I didn’t have the vocabulary to identify at the time) from someone I was with for almost 4 years … and then he disappeared. And I’m still a little broken sometimes.
Well, it’s 4 years later and I’ve been back and forth inside the frustration of the online dating thing which, I believe, has a whole other set of difficulties for 50 somethings. Had a couple of dates with a really nice widowed man who was deathly allergic to cats. Since I have two furry friends we met outdoors. Although we agreed a relationship wasn’t in the cards, we remained friends for a bit until he met a wonderful woman. Had a “date” with the guy who chose the place and then couldn’t find it. And then there was the really nice meet up over coffee and delicious pastry with a guy who wrote “You’re pretty, smart, fun to talk to, sophisticated but we’re not a perfect match” two days later. (WTF???). And then the walk in Central Park with the older gentleman whose favorite thing was taking naps. And then the lunch date with the nose picking guy whose picture indicated that he was 60 but, based on how close his pants were pulled up to his pecs, was closer to 70. And then there was the guy who sounded either drunk, tired or disinterested during our two phone calls (should’ve been a huge red flag BOTH times). We made plans to meet and, the night before the date, he emailed me through match saying he saw my active status and thought it was silly for us to meet when we were still looking at other people. I wish he would’ve just said he wasn’t interested.
It’s been two years since that little flurry of dates and what hasn’t changed is that the men I contact still don’t respond. However, it seems that there’s been a mudslide of scammers hitting Match. The commercial says 25,000 people join daily. I think it’s more like 250 scammers making 100 different unavailable or hidden profiles and I’m the intake center for all of them. I receive REALLY poorly written chat requests and emails quite often (using the same exact badly written long ass sentence with periods and commas added willy nilly to prove ……. i dunno ….. something). I’m constantly contacted by “men” and “women” (and I’m only looking for men) who live hundreds and thousands of miles away and who insist that I shouldn’t worry about distance when love is involved. Love? How does anyone fall in love with letters in a little white box or those freakish silhouettes? Tell me please. AND THEIR PROFILES ARE HIDDEN OR UNAVAILABLE. And they’ll relocate. And, of course, they’re on a peace keeping mission in Kabul and even though they’re listed as living in East Bumblefuck, they’ll be returning to New York in two months. OH, or they’re some woman whose friend was looking over their shoulder and saw my profile and BEGGED them to get in touch with me. Please contact Dudley, he’s really sweet. He lives in West Bumblefuck and his number is XXX_XXX_XXXX I promise you won’t be sorry.
And there’s so much more.
Now … a couple of things:
1. Normally as soon as I start getting multiple ridiculous communications and/or have reported several bogus profiles, I shut down my profile and let the subscription run out without me. On January 1, I decided to renew my three month subscription, put on my hip waders and leave the doors open for the mudslide no matter what.
2. Nothing has changed, yet. But I’m starting to laugh a little more and I’ve got tons of material for a book or a blog or something. Plus, as Thich Nhat Hahn says, “No mud, no lotus.” Maybe that beautiful lotus will show up in the early spring. Hmmmm … I hope I recognize him after all the mud.
Jay King says
With the height of our technological advancement today, meeting someone online is a possibility, dating online is a possiblity, the question of does it work? Yes it certainly does, but it all depends on how you handle it. Online dating is more fragile than the usual person to person dates we have, it can easily be destroyed if you won’t take care of it. Remember, you found him/her online, there is a big possiblity that he/she can also be found online by someone else, it’s a fierce competition, but if you can sustain the responsiblities of an online date, then you might be one of the lucky persons to do it. Online dating works, but not for everyone.
shane says
I have tried online dating here and there for the last few years, no more than a week at a time. My problem was that most of the women on these sites have been on for years. The same women from three years ago, lol. Huge turn off for me. Okc, pof.
Betty says
I have only ever tried online dating once. I was on POF for 10 days when i met my now partner. We ended up as a mutual match on the place where you click if you want to meet them or not kind of like a yes or no clicker and I made the move and messaged him.
Exchanged messages then text messages and were texting hourly every day until 2 weeks later where we met up. We were both on a night out and we just met casually for a drink to see what the initial attraction was. 4 days later we went for our first date and the rest is history.
We have been together over a year and a half and living together for 5 months…going good so far :0)
joe says
Adding my own experience here – I believe it doesn’t work 99.9% of time and has no chance of working.
KurtMichaels says
How exhausting reading these sad and confrontational stories. I have learned much through reading them. What have I learned? This will illustrate:
The late comedian Redd Foxx used to tell about a time he in bad need of some adult playtime. He found a hooker who wanted $100. So he went to the drug store and bought a jar of cold cream for $2.50.
The next morning Redd woke up with a smile on his face and $98.50 in change…
ScottH says
Try $97.50
ec says
I can’t for the life of me wrap my head around this notion that online dating is equally as frustrating for women as it is for men.
I’m a tall, handsome, athletic, educated, fun 30 year old guy. I moved to NYC in July with a woman I was with for two years. As quickly as we moved here together (and 3 days after I turned 30 yippee!!) was as quickly as my relationship with her ended. In attempts to pick up the pieces and move on, I gave online dating a shot as most of my friends at 30 are married, in relationships, or are simply entrenched in their lives and thus do not go out with me to meet women as much as they did when we were in our twenties.
I’ve done them all – Match, POF, Zoosk, OKCupid, you name it. My response rate after sending creative, witty openers to women indicating that I indeed read their profiles that I could certainly attract in person was probably a little less than 10%. Actual chemistry with this group was less than 3%, which makes me wonder if we met in person if it’d be higher as chemistry is built through body language and verbal communicative interaction (tone, delivery etc.), rather than the impersonality of letters strung together as words in a text message box or email.
I did get messages from women but they were probably the ones that found me extremely physically attractive. Out of these messages, reading them was usually about as interesting as reading a comprehensive dissertation on the eating habits of Galápagos penguins (why women complain that they abhor messages like “hi” and “you’re cute, what’s up?” then send them themselves is beyond me.)
In the beginning of my journey I pounded the pavement. You’re free later on today and want to grab a quick drink after work? I’m down. You’re free this Friday? 9:00 – be there!
Conclusion: if you’re a woman in your twenties/early thirties and are at least reasonably attractive, you’re attracting male attention offline on almost a daily basis. And If you’ve resorted to online dating – you better have the work schedule of a CPA during tax season or just moved to a new city and are by yourself because if not, there’s probably something wrong with you. I’ve met them all, the crazies, the druggies, the flakes, the feminazis, the stiffs. I’ve had flings here and there, but they would quickly fizzle out because I or her would realize nothing long term would ever culminate beyond that point. There were dates that I made out with then never spoke to me again, women who admitted they wanted to go to bed with me but never accepted a second or third date, women who said they really liked me but refused to meet me.
At this point I’m absolutely convinced 90% just want free drinks on a Friday night or are bored and have nothing to do. They aren’t really interested in YOU, because like I said, they have many more options with guys they have gotten to know in their day to day lives. I’ve gotten to the point where I refused to meet after at least a month of chatting on the phone. Even then, after meeting, I was sensing that despite the foundation that was built over the phone this whole time, there was something the date wasn’t comfortable with (perhaps I didn’t look to them the way I looked in my pictures, or maybe I wasn’t who they expected me to be as most I’ve met never even took the time to actually read my profile therefore had no business in being paired with me to begin with, or maybe their guards were too far up as there is always this stigma of men online being creepy/dangerous, who the f knows.)
I just remember going out in my twenties and it not being this difficult to find someone. Despite friends and even the ex telling me how amazing I am and that I’ll find someone else as people do, the experience has been debilitating to say the least. I’ve deleted ALL online content and now try going out albeit many times alone. The problem here is single guy 30 alone? Red flag he must be a serial killer! – hence this is also ineffective. I guess I have to come to terms with the fact that I’m 30 and will be single for the rest of my life due to the circumstances that develop for being a single guy alone despite his worth. And it sucks knowing that your ex who while not a supermodel but was just as cool as you has found someone new via the Internet simply because her group has all the power.
Bob says
ec is right. I have also given up on online dating. 10 Years of trying to meet someone with it and not one relationship to speak of. I live in a small city of 15K people. I hardly ever get responses and almost never get to meet anyone in person. Counter that experience with one of my female coworkers who on the first day of signing up got 70 messages. She picked the best 3 or 4 guys to contact and deleted her account that day. It’s not a level playing field at all. Any guy that isn’t in the top 5% of datable men will be ignored.
Oscar says
I know that for a lot of people online dating might seem terrifying. With shows like catfish and hundreds of other online dating horror stories its no wonder why people are still so skeptical. I’m not saying you’re being stupid for going off of those experiences but like anything you do, there will be good times and bad times. I have not been using online dating for that long but I have been lucky enough to have had good experiences with its so far. I’ve talked to a lot of people and gone out with 2 great girls in the past year and I’m currently hitting it off pretty well with a third. Just like dating in real life, you have to learn how to pick out the bullshit. If its a dating site where people write small bio’s then read them, get a feel for the person. Then you give them a hit and hopefully, if you’re lucky, they’ll find you interesting as well. The great thing about online dating is that it can prevent you from moving too fast. Since you’re not actually meeting the person then there isn’t that whole nervous moment of overthinking everything and hoping it goes well. You have no idea how much better it is to be able to talk to a person with no pressure and get to know them. And if this keeps going and you end up going out you know its because you find this person genuinely interesting. Its still scary because they could be different in person but don’t we all have bad date experiences with people we have totally different impressions of. Its just life. All this being said, like any other dating situation you should approach this with caution and be respectful. Be nice to the people you talk to and don’t just use it as an experiment to see what cheesy and inappropriate opener you can get away with. No some take aways to wrap it up. Online dating allows you to get to know the person without having to actually meet them so you can judge if this is someone you’d be interested in. It’s easier to be relaxed and really put yourself out there and be hones with the person. You can talk to multiple people! Dating sites don’t lock you down to only talking to one person at a time. You can still play the field form the comfort of your home and meet a lot of potentially great people. Maybe the next one will be THE ONE. Do yourself a favor and give it a shot! Happy Hunting!
Beep says
Online dating is not for everyone. It depends on your personality, and quite frankly on your desperation level.
I have tried it in the past, and I lack two things that a person needs to persist with it: 1. patience (weeding out weirdos, making the same introductions over and over and over, boring dates, etc.) and 2. money. It must be pointed out that ONLINE DATING IS A BUSINESS; it’s goal, as far as the CEOs are concerned, is not to find you a marriage partner. It’s to keep you “in the game” — i.e. a paying customer.
Also, while meeting a potential partner offline is truly a waiting game, and requires more than a bit of luck, the connections are more natural, in the sense that you get to see right away if you are attracted to the person or not. Body language, style of dress, personal hygiene, actual age and height and more are all revealed in an instant. So many aspects factor into physical attraction that it’s foolish to assume that a picture on the internet will yield the same result. You have to meet that person and take a chance, and 99% of the time it will be a waste.
If you have the time to waste in that regard, then online dating might work for you. Unfortunately, there are many people like me who do not. Also, I do not have the hundreds of dollars it costs in the long term to feed into these online dating businesses, and I am not alone in that regard either. You may suggest free sites to counteract that, but this is where the phrase “buyer beware” comes in — free sites can be crawling with pickup artists trolling for one-night stands. OK Cupid is one such example.
And even if I disregard that, I still have to invest a lot of time sifting through profiles, studying photos and composing emails. I also have to worry about being in a guy’s “rotation” — those men (and I imagine there are women who do this as well) who are dating multiple women at once, most likely because they are overwhelmed with choices, maybe because they haven’t dated in ages. Yes, most happily married people are not reporting back to the internet about how happy they are with their spouse whom they met online. But the large amount of complaints suggest that the system is simply not working for the majority of us.
Really, the problem is that our society doesn’t encourage marriage. But that’s another story for another day.
And there’s the patience issue. Burnout comes quickly with online dating. Now mind you, I don’t have a time frame for meeting a potential partner, but it’s the very act of doing the same thing over and over — reading profiles, reading and composing messages, telling the same stories on dates, meeting a lot of bland and boring people, to name just a few issues — with no guarantee of hitting pay dirt, that makes it frustrating and boring.
I took a break from online dating, tried it again a year later, and found that the same issues reared their ugly heads almost instantly. Case in point, it does not work for everyone, and this should be noted.
Evan Marc Katz says
Or you can stop complaining and learn how to do things better.
Just saying.
Everything you wrote is glass half-empty and ignores the bigger picture.
Let me dissect your post quickly.
1. Being proactive isn’t desperate. It’s smart. Your way relies on luck. My way relies on skill and perseverance. Your way, you may get 5 “organic” dates a year. My way, you may get 50 of them. Will they all be winners? Of course not. But if you pay attention to the link above, you’ll see you can avoid a lot of bad dates just by being a better screener.
2. Dating sites are not trying to keep you in the game. They’re trying to facilitate meetings. Their BEST publicity is when people get happily married, not when people complain. It’s like saying Gyms want to keep people fat. Not true. They provide resources to lose weight. The rest is on you. I’m saying this as a guy who worked at a dating site and as a dating coach. Do you think my job is to give bad advice to keep people single to pay my bills? Of course not. My job is to get women happy – and if they’re happy, they’re gonna tell their friends about me – even if it means I lose a married woman as a client. Your way is a cynical conspiracy theory. It’s not the trusth.
3. It’s not a waste to go on an online date 99% of the time. One study said that people met boyfriends on average after 12 dates. In my experience, it was closer to 30 dates. But so what? If I go on 30 dates in 6 months, I may fall for someone twice a year. Your way…well, you know how it’s going.
4. Between 1/5th and 1/3 of all marriages start online. Kind of hard to tell those millions of people that online dating is a waste.
5. Time: go to a bar for three hours, buy two drinks and smile. You may or may not get a guy to ask for your phone number. Go online for 3 hours and correspond with 10 guys. One of those guys is asking for your phone number. And it’s $25/month, not $50/night. Your math isn’t working, my friend.
6. Society absolutely encourages marriage. There are hundreds of complaints from readers on this website who are angry at how much society encourages marriage. Kate Bolick just wrote a book called Spinster that talks about the same thing. I don’t judge you if you’re not married, but this is a marriage oriented society.
7. Burnout comes quickly with online dating – if you don’t know what you’re doing. Try clicking here and letting me know if you learn something. I think you will.
8. There’s no guarantee of hitting pay dirt in online dating…which makes it no different than anything else in life. Seriously, what, in life, is guaranteed?
9. Of course online dating doesn’t work for everyone. And not everyone is a millionaire. And not everyone is creatively fulfilled. And not everyone lives in a nice house. And not everyone is satisfied with her lot in life.
I’m suggesting you do something different. You’re suggesting you’re doing just fine. Keep at it, my friend.
Karmic Equation says
Don’t be so judgmental of OLD, beep. That’s probably the biggest reason whey you failed at it. Because your inner dialog said that only the “desperate” date online, you didn’t want to succeed at it, because then you’d have to reveal to all your friends that you were “desperate” if you actually found love online. Confirmation bias is more than just looking for information that confirms our world views, it’s when we do (or don’t do) things to ensure that our world view stays intact.
I always looked at OLD as a way for me to meet men whom I would never normally meet IRL. I met a buyer who was in charge of a billion dollar budget for a national chain store. I met a globetrotting sales manager, originally from Holland. Sexy as heck. I met a cute and sweet ironworker. I met a modern day hippie who goes to dance camp in the Catskills every year. I met a patrolman with the sexiest voice ever. All interesting people whom I would NEVER have met had I not online dated. Sure, none of them turned into committed relationships, but so what? I learned to be a great date. I learned how to have fun dating. I learned how to read men better than I already did before. I dated 5 men in my 20s; I dated 30 in the last 2 years. So yeah, OLD is a GREAT way to meet potential love interests. Of course, I met duds, too, but I still had fun chatting and getting to know them. And I learned how to say no to 2nd dates nicely.
That said, I told my best friend that most likely the next guy I have a relationship with would be from IRL, not from OLD. I was right. Why did I think this? I was dating for “cute” not “committed”. Guys online who want to give commitment aren’t as cute as the ones who don’t. It is what it is. In OLD, I’m a small fish in a big pond. IRL, because I spend most of my spare time in pool rooms, albeit with the same group of male friends, I’m a big fish in a little pond because very few attractive women spend their spare time shooting pool. Moral of the story? Learn to shoot pool. haha — Seriously, even if you don’t meet any eligible men (many men who hang at pool halls are married or retired or both) — you’ll discover that there are a lot of good, commitment-oriented men out there. It’s just that they’re already married. lol
I was lucky that the new cute guy who started shooting pool at my local pool hall in the winter took a liking to me and now we’re a couple who just traded house keys. Now HIM I would never have found online since he doesn’t even own a computer.
I think you should date both ways, IRL and OLD. But follow Evan’s advice on how to do it online if you’re looking for a relationship. The WORST thing you could do is to give up OLD, particularly if you have no other avenues to meet new men.
If you’re just looking for fun, well, I can advise you in this post on that 😉
Beep says
Evan, your response misses a few things. For one, you failed to address the money issue that I brought up. That is a very real factor. You even posted a link in your response that urges people to buy a product! I had to laugh at that. If I can’t afford hundreds of dollars for online dating, how can I afford to buy anything you are selling?
Also, your post assumes that I want to go on many dates, with the idea that the more dates I go on, the more likely it is that I will meet a partner. This cannot be further from the truth. The theory that dating is a numbers game sounds like a business tagline to me, but even disregarding that, I don’t care about the number of dates I go on – I care about the quality of the date. I want to be attracted to the person I’m going out with. I want to know more about him. For me, this attraction starts when we meet in person. It has never begun online.
There are other issues with online dating as well. An article I read described the men who advertise their availability on the internet as a stomping ground for perverts and the socially inept (I’m paraphrasing there). I have found this to be true. While you may claim that you have a system for avoiding these types, I cannot afford to pay you for that system.
Karmic Equation, I am very happy that I stopped dumping money into online dating businesses. I do not feel that is the worst thing I could do. I am not desperate for a partner – which, I believe, is what one has to be in order to sift through dating profiles, go on many bad dates, and pay money to meet people, most of whom you will not be interested in. And I do not have the patience for it. As I stated before, online dating is not for people like me. It is not for everyone.
Evan, the statistics you site about online dating and marriages might be inflated. We have no way of verifying them independently.
Also, you say that there’s no guarantee of anything in life. That is true, so why waste money on something that offers no guarantee of success? This is what I mentioned in my first post. I can see trying it; that makes sense, but to continue to persist without guarantees is ridiculous from a financial standpoint (as well as a common sense standpoint).
I disagree with your opinion that society encourages marriage. So the best we’ll get there is to agree to disagree. Also, my way is not cynical or a “conspiracy theory.” Online dating is a business; you are paying for a service. Businesses do not like to lose clients. Many who quit online dating end up returning to it, all for the chance of meeting the right person. The idea that we have a chance is what keeps us paying. It’s logic and business. No conspiracies here.
And yes, I am doing just fine! Which is exactly why I don’t do online dating anymore! I think, if you really want to help people, you might want to add the caveat that it is possible to meet people without the internet, and that for some people, it might be preferable. Again, it isn’t for everyone, so it isn’t wise to push it as the best solution for every person.
Evan Marc Katz says
1. The money issue. Match is $25/month. Go out ONE night and you’ll spend more. I mean, I guess you can go out to a bar and order water, but really, ‘real life’ costs money.
2. You can’t afford to spend $197 to find love. That’s fine. I was offering you a resource to help you. If you choose NOT to learn how to date online better, you cease having any authority whatsoever to talk about how online dating is failing you.
3. Yes, in fact, if you go on more dates, you will have a greater likelihood of finding love. My system shows you how to screen men before a date. Did you click on the link to the TED talk? It’s FREE.
4. People online are the same as people in real life. No better or worse. Same people who you see in line at the bank and on the bus and in the mall post profiles on dating sites. So to suggest its a haven for perverts? Um, no more than real life. Wherever did you get the idea that there’s a separate subset of deviants who date online? I dated online, my wife dated online, my sister met her husband online, my wife’s friend met her husband online, my best friend met her husband online… so really, I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
5. You have no reason to think my statistics are inflated except for the fact that you don’t want them to be true because if MILLIONS of people find love online and YOU don’t, it would imply that the fault isn’t “online dating” but you.
6. Your argument about “wasting money” on online dating because it’s not guaranteed really indicates to me that you have no grasp of logic whatsoever. Why “waste” money on a restaurant if it’s not GUARANTEED that you like the food? Why go on a plane when it’s not GUARANTEED you’re going to land? Your argument is silly.
As has been your entire line of thinking. Finally, your last line: I’m not sure why I would need to remind people that “real life” exists outside the internet. I think every single reader here knows that they can meet “in real life”. That’s not news. But if they’re reading my advice, they’re probably NOT meeting people that way. That’s why I help people date online.
Now get out of here. You’ve wasted five minutes of my life having an argument akin to the kind I would have with my four-year-old.
Ralph says
I think the responses here are very amusing and have a lot of entertainment value. I’m an older guy who basically gave up a real sense of finding someone long ago. I let myself go physically when I got to be 60, because my job was too taxing , and it was too much work frankly. I still get some exercise when I can, but I know I am not attractive to someone who is in shape. The cards are stacked against us, and I am really not attracted to women my age. For one, they rejected me for years when I was really interested in finding someone because I was not the superstud, high-achiever guy with the hellagood hair. I go to strip clubs if I really get the urge for human contact, and I talk to people at work and in public when the opportunity permits. I have occasional dates with women who are either desperate for anyone or reject me when I don’t fit their criteria on the first date. Most American women have an inflated opinion of their true value in relationships based on what they have been conditioned to believe over the years
Violet says
I found success online and know two other couples who did too. One of my successful friends is a guy – his girlfriend has a child, but she’s amazing in every other way. Absolutely beautiful. Her boy is sweet too and has embraced him as his father.
I was on Match for less than two months before I found him, and one of those months I was dating someone else so didn’t go on the website at all. Maybe we just got lucky, but here’s my story if it helps anyone or gives anyone hope:
I had about three paragraphs about myself on the summary. I had filled out the other parts too. I am Indian, very, very short, and agnostic so I guessed that it would be hard for me to find someone who is okay with all of those qualities (I live in the South). I also earn a lot so was looking for someone who earns at least half as much. Age: not yet 30, and I look young for my age. (People have told me that I can pass for a college student.) Attractiveness level: my boyfriend thinks I’m hot stuff, but he says I look a lot better in real life than I did on my profile (he says I looked amazing on there too, but love is blind).
Like many women, I got a lot of messages, but it was easy to sift through them to find the ones I’d actually like person. I messaged back and forth with about six guys (after dating a guy for a month) so total: real conversations with 8 men in less than 2 months. In person meetings: 3 men. He was the third person.
He says he knew I was the one on our first date. (He’s pretty romantic.)
His stats: average height (< 6 ft, thank God; I’m too short for a 6 footer), salary 70-80 thou, age: mid-thirties, extremely good looking, hotter than any guy I’ve crushed on (My friends and family think he’s a looker too.), and a god in bed (haha, I know that’s not something anyone puts on profiles, but I’ve gotta brag.)
It probably sounds too good to be true, but I think being in love always feels and sounds too good to be true. We’re a new relationship so I can’t give you all any reassurance of it being long lasting, but we have met each other’s family and friends, and he tells everyone that he’s going to marry me. He would have already proposed if I didn’t want to wait at least a year (make sure it really isn’t too good to be true). We talk about our future children and our lives together. It’ll happen. And I think it’ll last.
Mike says
I started using dating ads last year when I was 70. I’m slim, fit, intelligent and not broke. No reason to lie here.
Initially I got quite a few messages and met six women. I assumed therefore that there being so many people on their own that dating ads would be a nice thing to do and fruitful socially. Two were very good company and we got on really well meeting a first time and both said they wanted to meet again. The problem is fear about the second. They think they’ll be committed to sex. So they thought about it and avoided it.
Since then it’s dried up. Hardly any replies or messages. I’ve now concluded that there are only a tiny number of older women actually willing to meet and you soon drain the cup. Most just want flattering attention by people asking after them. They quickly find excuses after they’ve got their hit of reassurance that people like them. None of them will admit it or how few messages they actually get. Some of the excuses are amazing. This wrong that wrong. Us men appear to be a vanity service for women not the other way round as usually claimed by females.
All this is about older people using ads of course.
dube says
A few words of advice about online dating:
1. Posting pictures on your profile is paramount. But unless people viewing your profile are interested in photography, they are only interested in pictures of YOU. They are NOT interested in pictures of your family, pets, vacation, etc.(unless you’re in these pictures) so don’t post these kind of pictures.
2. If you make a date and want to break it later, have the decency to call the person on the phone. Only cowards break a date by sending an email or a text message. Also, don’t act like a real jerk by either completely avoiding any contact with the person….that is, not calling them, not answering their phone calls, and not returning them……., or waiting until they call you before you tell them you can’t keep the date. Again, have the decency to call them, and call them when you know you’re not going to keep the date.
3. If someone sends you a message on an internet dating site, and you’re NOT interested, DON’T reply. Sending a reply will probably entice the person to keep sending you more messages. Also, don’t say something stupid like you already have a boyfriend or girlfriend. It’s not believable….if that’s really the situation with you, then why are you on the dating site?
4. Post the CORRECT city and state where you live in your profile. It sounds simple and common sense, but intentionally posting an incorrect city, state or country does happen. When you tell the person you live in another place, it’s not well received, especially if you live in another country, believe me.
5. If you receive a call for the FIRST time from someone you’ve given your number to, and you can’t talk to them at that time, then YOU should take the initiative to return the call. DON’T tell them to call back. They made the call, and obviously didn’t know it was a bad time for you to speak.
Dana says
I’ve been online dating for a year. I’m an attractive, slender 34 year-old, make over $100K, well-educated but travel a lot for work so it’s hard for me to meet men. I’ve never been married or have children.
I get a lot of emails from men who make half as much as me and even more from men that were previously married with children even though I specify in my profile what my criteria are. Yes, I’m looking for attractiveness and income, just like you are even though you don’t have the guts to admit it. No, I’m not lying about my stats and I don’t want to feed someone else’s children and have them resent me for being their potential step-mother when the reality is, they probably will never love me as much as their real mother even if I end of paying $80K a year for their college down the road.
Bottom line – we’re all looking for compatibility and it’s really tough to find these days. In previous decades, people weren’t looking for equals, they were looking for marriage. These days, we have more accessibility to what’s out there but…if we didn’t have criteria, we would just hop with anyone we met at the bar or the supermarket or wherever but because we’re looking for compatibility, it seems that what’s available on dating websites is exactly what you find at the bar.
hunter says
..to sum up, you could get married right now, if you dropped all of your requirements….
OnlyWorkingClass.com says
it’s always best to write your quality profile and also what you are looking for.
Simple put, if you had a Chanel bag would you put sweet wrappers, squashed chewing gums, etc inside.? So, quality profile matters a lot.
Research has shown there are lots of matured singles out there.
Stuart says
A simply amazing and enlightening Blog
Actually , the Boston University study I saw suggested that ‘success’ (defined as just meeting someone and hanging out, not marriage or intimacy ) was only about 1 in 350 people find online dating success
half of all people never had a single date
Only the web owners were successful
Evan Marc Katz says
No way. Show me that study. It’s next to IMPOSSIBLE to get online and not meet someone. The only way one could do so is to have a terrible profile, write god-awful emails, or reach out to only 10s or people who have no interest in you demographically.
Furthermore, if 1 in 350 people find anyone to “meet” online, how is it that 1/5th to 1/3rd of all marriages start online?
DeeGee says
Evan said: “It’s next to IMPOSSIBLE to get online and not meet someone.”
I agree with Evan.
I live in a small city in the middle of nowhere in western Canada.
I have met a few women on OKC and got together with them for a coffee date etc.
Unfortunately things haven’t worked out romantically with any of them, but I still met some, more than I thought I would.
Stuart says
Evan ; here is the study I referenced
Online Dating Study Determines Users Have Only .03% Chance of Finding Lasting Love
CHICAGO – Many people will agree that scouring dating websites looking for love can be frustrating. And now a group of U.S. psychology professors released a study on Tuesday exposing that the dismal results are not worth that frustration.
“Online dating seems to offer the promise of unlimited opportunity for singles to meet. But the reality is that the long-term success of these pairings is about .03%,” study author Sal Stein, a professor of psychology at Brighten University, said in an interview. That is about one third of one percent.
The study defined “lasting love” as any relationship that resulted in long-term dating of six months or more. For every 350 dates that were set up online, only one led to relationships that lasted to the six month mark.
In comparison, meeting someone through other means, such as family, friends, work, school or at a bar resulted in a 29% chance of long-term dating. That is nearly 1,000 times more successful than a dating site connection. And it shows that there is no substitute for meeting face-to-face.
Stein also explained that there are significant problems with online dating. Foremost, people are overwhelmed by seemingly endless lists of profiles. Second, these profiles are often filled with misrepresentations.
When there are a lot of choices, people think of their matches as readily disposable. After a couple of dates someone who frequently uses online sites is likely to dismiss a possible mate in favor of someone new from the bottomless pit of possibilities.
The investigation also revealed that online profiles contain substantial embellishments. “People lie about their height, financial success and also say that they are younger,” Stein stated. This leads to disappointment and mistrust.
Online dating regulars tend to be unrealistic in their expectations. Stein explains, “these men and women think that they are more desirable than they actually are, and that they rate better looking matches than they are getting. Reality never hits them the way it would at a physical venue.”
The bottom line? If you are single and looking for love, you should head out to a local bar or ask your friends and family to match you up. Do not look for your next date on the internet.
Evan Marc Katz says
a. This “study” doesn’t actually link to a study. It links to something called SkewNews, a site that hasn’t posted anything since 2013, and most recently shared an article called “Zombie Attack Hits 15”.
b. I Googled Sal Stein, Brighten University and didn’t get anything…except this article. Sounds like maybe the guy isn’t real, and therefore, the study and the article might not be real either.
c. I don’t know why I’m bothering to refute a fake article on a fake study by a fake professor, but, here’s something from Pew Research (slightly more credible) that suggests that fully two thirds of people have gone out with someone they’ve met online.
And another (real) study indicates that while nationally, only 5% of marriages began online, in the past decade, 35% of relationships started online, including 17% from online dating sites.
In fact, the latter link indicates that twice as many marriages begin online instead of a bar, which makes a lot more sense, logically. Because there are 1000X more people on your dating site than in any given bar at any given time. So will you have greater odds of meeting someone in a bar? If you’re cute and you have confidence and you approach one of the five attractive women there, sure. But between bar-hopping and online dating, my friend, your odds of meeting your significant other are much greater online. You know: if you want to believe things like Pew Research and US News and World Report as opposed to SkewNews.com (defunct).
Oh, and finally, all the critiques of online dating – the endless choices, the disposability, the lying – I’ve written about all of them on this blog repeatedly since 2007. And yet I still have thousands of clients who’ve fallen in love online…and far less who got lucky in a bar or after a set-up. Sounds to me like you’d be better served by learning to date online than in complaining that online dating isn’t working for you. Will you listen to an expert who is offering you (true) facts and (free) advice? That’s up to you.
DeeGee says
Stuart said: “you should head out to a local bar”
This might work some places, but not where I live.
Go to a local bar and get a bar-fly who needs her shots (not the booze kind either)? No thanks.
and said: “or ask your friends and family to match you up”
The last girl I had my family set me up with, she had a psycho ex that no one told me about, who took a crowbar to my car and totaled it.
That relationship ended fast.
It might just be my experience but in the past few years I have done better with online dating, but I will agree that a few of the women posted younger thinner pictures of themselves.
Stuart says
Hi Evan
thanks for the feedback on the article I sent
I’m very glad it , and I am both wrong about the abysmal #s with respect to meeting on line
Hope springs eternal
Stu
Mike says
I’m not clear about what constitutes a good profile. Is it one which ‘keeps things light’ – eg “I like meals out, travel, nature” which basically tells you zilch or is it one which reveals a bit about you as a personality? It may be that different people respond in different ways. Some like one some like the other. Most people seem to opt for writing the first.
My idea is that you have not a clue who you are meeting until you do so just meet and see. Unfortunately and in my experience, most women want to be sure in advance which is impossible in view of the spin people use. I also think that there are no points given for honesty in view of the fantasy element people project onto online dating. Not by women anyway.
Luckily for me I have a private jet………..
Russell says
Guys always tell me I’m attractive, but I’ve been on online dating sites for like 3 years and I’ve barely even talked to any girls. I’m pretty sure I’ve messaged every girl in my area and far less than 1% of women have responded to me. The very few girls that have replied were extremely unattractive.
Danny says
Online dating is all bout your pictures and what you look like. You can say on your profile that you eat babies on Christmas.
The bottom line is that online dating works for only highly attractive men. (yeah I said it )
But even below average women can get a date online.
hunter says
…online dating is a haven for women…so I am told…
Karmic Equation says
For attention yes. For sex yes. For relationships?? Probably only the very good looking ones.
I’m not photogenic. I posted the best picture I had into my profile. Wrote to a few men I found attractive (and way out of my league lol). No response.
Had professional shots done. They were disappointing. Did not use them.
Then on the same day, since I overdid my makeup knowing cameras washes makeup out, I took some great selfies.
Posted those. My inbox exploded. I then re-messaged those men I considered out of my league. I believe all replied.
And “haven” is not accurate. You do have to reject a higher number of men, either directly with a reply or indirectly by ignoring their messages. As a nice person, I didn’t enjoy rejecting them. Also, you can get some inappropriate messages too.
The caveat is that for the “average” women, who may get a lot of attention from men “above” her league, she has to be more careful about her screening, to make sure that the guy is really into her and not just trolling for sex. For the insecure or less-than-self-aware, average woman, I think OLD would not be a “haven” as she’s going to get her heart broken more often than not by disappearing men.
hunter says
Karmic, please, there is but one simple, two letter, very powerful word, women need to say…..”no”……
Karmic Equation says
But a lot of average women don’t have the opportunity to practice that.
The more people who try to get in your pants, particularly the good looking ones, the more opportunities she has to practice saying no and meaning it.
Do you think Susan Boyle would turn down sex with George Clooney if he presses for it on a date? She might think, “OMG, finally, a good looking man who thinks I’m great!” as opposed to the reality, “He just wants sex and I’m here.”
Attractive women have regular practice saying “No” to attractive men. Average women don’t get as many opportunities to practice saying “no” and, thus, are less likely to say no when they should.
hunter says
…Karmic, yes, it is about educating these women…..
JB says
It’s not JUST your pictures and what you look like. Height/Education/Job Title all play prominent roles in men’s online success. Where as most men could probably care less about those 3 things when reading a woman’s profile. Oh well……….. don’t hate the players, hate the game.
N says
I’m NOT photogenic, not blond, very petite at 5’1″ 95 lbs. I get pass by those looking for blonde statuesque. I’m Eurasian, 50% Asian, the rest is French and Castillian Spanish. My main photo was at a wedding wearing simple cocktail dress, I did my own hair and my own make-up which turned out to be blah. The rest of my photos are cropped low-quality doing outdoor activities. One of them was showing my 6-pack so they (men who messaged) say. My profile was blank.
The response. Everybody wants to meet now. If you can’t meet right away they disappear. The grass is always greener on the other side mentality I suppose. No one sent inappropriate message. My thoughts, it is overwhelming, time-consuming at best. One must be willing to do the work of weeding through. And once you meet them for quick coffee, they want dinner on the same day! Or they are alluding to “I should not be online and meeting other men.” And for men, it is a numbers game IMO.
My take, OLD is another tool to meet people. Take the good and leave the bad. Cheers! 🙂
hunter says
..”one must do the work of weeding through,”……I’ve been told some women are too lazy to even do that!….it is so much easier to stay single…!!
snowy says
I just wanted to say that online dating isn’t this “thing” that either “works” or “doesn’t work”…. it’s just one way to meet people you wouldn’t otherwise meet. It’s like saying, “does meeting people in coffee shops actually work?” “Does meeting people through friends of friends actually work?” “Do blind date setups actually work?” These are all just different ways to meet new people.
I met my husband online on match, just got married last week. I was single for several years in my 30’s while working at the same job, hanging out with the same (married) friends, rarely meeting new people despite my very proactive efforts to ‘put myself out there’ as much as I could in my free time… I just never would meet anyone single and interesting and ‘putting myself out there’ was so much effort (spending my free time in coffee shops, joining sports clubs, etc). Yet I still totally didn’t want to do online dating. I would come to this site, and others, and read about all the pros and cons. I finally decided to just try it alongside my IRL efforts. I agree that it only takes one… as as long as you can afford the monthly fee for whatever dating site, there’s not that much to lose, yet so much to gain, by doing it. I’m so happily married now and never would have met my husband if I hadn’t tried online dating.
I totally agree that those of us for whom it finally works out don’t tend to post — because we move on to the next issue we need to work out (for example visiting sites for people having trouble getting pregnant, visiting sites on grieving a lost loved one, etc… so not necessarily better things just different life issues that they’re having trouble with). So I think the online posting might be biased in the negative because people tend to read/post about things that are currently an unresolved issue for them.
All I know is I hated the idea of online dating and for years refused to try it… but I finally did and now I feel so lucky and happy… and this is after having felt pretty resigned that I was just never going to have the love and happiness other people get to have… sometimes I still can’t believe I finally met my husband… so I hope some of you will be encouraged to persist through the disappointments we all have during online (or any type of) dating.
Amika says
I’d like to take this time to confess that I’ve been doing online dating since I was 18 in 2003 and now that I’m recently single again, I’ll probably still go back to it. And mind you for an 18 year old female in 2003 to be online dating…there was a HUGE negative stigma to it back then. Honestly I revel in the fact that it’s so popular now, I knew it was a great resource! Haha And yes I could write a book about the bad experiences but so could I about the good things that came from it. My biggest take away though is that you have to screen out the sketchy folks and really use your head about it. You can meet losers and creeps in real life just as much as you can online…but at least online you can screen them out before they really get into your bubble.
chili says
Words of advice about online dating:
1. Posting pictures on your profile is paramount. But unless the people who are viewing your profile are interested in photography, they are only interested in pictures of YOU. They are NOT interested in pictures of your family, pets, vacation, etc.(unless you’re in these pictures). So don’t post pictures you don’t appear in on your profile.
2. If you make a date and want to break it later, have the decency to call the person on the phone. Only cowards break a date by sending an email or a text message. Also, don’t act like a real jerk by either completely avoiding any contact with the person after you make a date….that is, not calling them, not answering their phone calls, and not returning them……., or waiting until they call you before you tell them you can’t keep the date. Again, have the decency to call them, and make the call when you know you’re not going to keep the date.
3. If someone sends you a message on an internet dating site, and you’re NOT interested, DON’T reply. Sending a reply will probably entice the person to keep sending you more messages. But if you do, don’t say something stupid like you’re already dating someone. It’s not believable….if that’s really your situation, then why are you on the dating site?
4. If the main picture on someone’s profile is appealing to you, and you’re thinking of contacting this person, have the common sense to look at ALL of their pictures, and anything else on their profile that may be important to you, BEFORE you decide to send them a message.
5. If you receive a call for the FIRST time from someone you’ve given your number to, and you can’t talk to them at that time, then YOU should return the call. DON’T tell them to call back. They took the initiative to make the call, and obviously didn’t know it was a bad time for you to speak, so YOU should have the decency to make the return call.
6. Don’t let your friends use your profile to browse through a dating site, especially if you’re a paid subscriber with full membership privileges. Sometimes the friends will contact other members on the site without your knowledge, the recipients will think it’s you, and when they find out it’s someone else, the outcome is not always friendly, …..OR the recipients may not be interested, but think you’re interested in them …because they think you’re the one who sent the message, … and maybe tell their friends about the message they think you sent them……OR your friends could do something that violates the dating site’s terms and conditions which could get you kicked off the site. Most of these dating sites offer a free membership, which may not allow communication with other members, but do allow viewing other member profiles. So when your friends ask you to use your membership to view profiles on a dating site that you belong to, tell them to sign up for their own free membership.
7. Post the CORRECT city and state where you live in your profile, not a place where you used to live, where you want to live, or where your friend lives. It sounds like basic common sense, but intentionally posting a city, state or country where a person doesn’t live does happen. If you’re contacting someone on a dating site, and you tell the person you live somewhere different than what you have posted on your profile, it’s a real turn off, especially if you live in another state or country.
Chili Peppers says
Words of advice about online dating:
1. Posting pictures on your profile is paramount. But unless the people who are viewing your profile are interested in photography, they are only interested in pictures of YOU. They are NOT interested in pictures of your family, pets, vacation, etc.(unless you’re in these pictures). So don’t post pictures you don’t appear in on your profile.
2. If you make a date and want to break it later, have the decency to call the person on the phone. Only cowards break a date by sending an email or a text message. Also, don’t act like a real jerk by either completely avoiding any contact with the person after you make a date….that is, not calling them, not answering their phone calls, and not returning them……., or waiting until they call you before you tell them you can’t keep the date. Again, have the decency to call them, and make the call when you know you’re not going to keep the date.
3. If someone sends you a message on an internet dating site, and you’re NOT interested, DON’T reply. Sending a reply will probably entice the person to keep sending you more messages. But if you do, don’t say something stupid like you’re already dating someone. It’s not believable….if that’s really your situation, then why are you on the dating site?
4. If the main picture on someone’s profile is appealing to you, and you’re thinking of contacting this person, have the common sense to look at ALL of their pictures, and anything else on their profile that may be important to you, BEFORE you decide to send them a message.
5. If you receive a call for the FIRST time from someone you’ve given your number to, and you can’t talk to them at that time, then YOU should return the call. DON’T tell them to call back. They took the initiative to make the call, and obviously didn’t know it was a bad time for you to speak, so YOU should have the decency to make the return call.
6. Don’t let your friends use your profile to browse through a dating site, especially if you’re a paid subscriber with full membership privileges. Sometimes the friends will contact other members on the site without your knowledge, the recipients will think it’s you, and when they find out it’s someone else, the outcome is not always friendly, …..OR the recipients may not be interested, but think you’re interested in them …because they think you’re the one who sent the message, … and maybe tell their friends about the message they think you sent them……OR your friends could do something that violates the dating site’s terms and conditions which could get you kicked off the site. Most of these dating sites offer a free membership, which may not allow communication with other members, but do allow viewing other member profiles. So when your friends ask you to use your membership to view profiles on a dating site that you belong to, tell them to sign up for their own free membership.
7. Post the CORRECT city and state where you live in your profile….not a place where you used to live, where you want to live, or where your friend lives. It sounds like basic common sense, but intentionally posting a city, state or country where a person doesn’t live does happen. If you’re contacting someone on a dating site, and you tell the person you live somewhere different than what you have posted on your profile, it’s a real turn off, especially if you live in another state or country.
Rachel says
Thanks Chili,
Those are useful tips. If I ever try online dating again (not likely) I’ll be sure to remember them. 🙂
Rachel says
Paying $25 a month makes good sense, if you are earning over $25,000 a year.
What doesn’t make sense, is why I should settle for a man I have nothing in common with and can’t stand to be with. I prefer to be alone….
I don’t do long distance relationships either. They have never worked out for me in the past.
Jamie says
I’m not sure when this article was made, but it’s approaching 2016 now, and it’s becoming more socially acceptable to meet people online. I don’t really give a rats ass if it’s socially acceptable or not, I’ll do what I damn well want. Sometimes change can be difficult, but it’s part of life.
For some people “online dating” works, (I prefer to just call it dating, to me, dating is dating whether it’s online or offline). Every relationship is different, it depends on how much effort you put into the relationship and making it work, that applies to any relationship regardless. Even if you do know each other in “real” life, if all you’re interested in is sex, then you won’t get very far in the long term. What maintains a long lasting relationship is not strictly physical intimacy, but mutual trust and connection.
What wonders me is, if it’s such a bad thing to meet people online, then why make it possible? Isn’t that partially what technology is for? To bring people together? Some say that the ones who are sceptical about dating via the net have either had bad experiences or haven’t tried it before. In my experience, I have met some girls and temporarily had flings with them, etc, nothing special. A couple of years ago however, I joined a community in support of LGBT, it is not a hookup site whatsoever, albeit I unintentionally met someone there and spent one or two years getting to know them. We had ups and downs, but that was down to personal issues, not technical. I like her a lot more than some of the people I know in “real” life. For example, if I’ve had a really bad day, then just having a conversation with her would make me feel much much better. Of course there are downsides, it hurts me that I can’t physically interact with her (yet), but the thought of not being able to communicate with her at all hurts me even more. So yes, it can work out, but just like any other relationship, it requires dedication.
Rachel says
I am through with online dating and dating altogether. The last guy I met online only wanted to talk about my cup size. This was before we even met in person. Men like that should rent hookers instead of trying to date ladies.
I got rid of him though. He took off like a flash when I told him I was disabled! 😀
If a man is over 30 and single, there’s usually a reason for it. He wants to play and probably will still be playing when he’s a dirty old man. All the good men are married or priests.
I am going to become a nun…metaphorically speaking, since I’m a protestant.
hunter says
Rachel,
.I have yet to meet a 30yr old male or player, that goes out(dates), and doesn’t get caught….
John says
I believe there are those who do not want to meet anyone (no matter how great they are) these are mostly the attractive types who perhaps want to even the score for being wronged sometime in their life, so they play games. I won’t call them man haters, but they do have major issues with men. This addiction to online attention is far worse than I could possibly imagine. I think that most people don’t communicate or can’t engage in conversation unless it’s about what they did today or how hot you think they are. Yes, I have met people online, but my honest opinion is these people are not looking to get off of these dating sites and don’t want to…crazy? why yes it is, but also true. These people are addicted to all the attention they receive and the power they have to manipulate others. They have also set the bar so high that no real person actually exists. I also never contacted those who I thought were out of my league by any means…but even those #5-7’s have way over valued their own looks and think they can get or have those perfect #10 guys. I think most guys don’t have a clue and think there must be something wrong with them…those poor fools.The 99% over picky (delusional) untouchables have ruined it for those of you who are serious about actually meeting someone.
Rachel says
Sorry if I came across as a misanthrope or man-hater. The fact is I’m not a ten and I know it. Especially when it comes to appearance.
I know nice guys still exist, John, but most of the guys that contact me only want one thing–and it’s not a relationship that will last more than 10 minutes. I may be ugly, but I’m not a piece of low-grade bologna!
As far as Evan’s comments in his free e book go, I don’t think I want his program. He seems to me to be saying that the key to finding true love is:
1. Pay 50% of your income to dating sites and coaches.
2. Throw all your standards out the window.
3. Date men you have nothing in common with and something magical will happen.
Even if I “landed” a husband according to his criteria (not my own) I know we would be very unhappy together.
The fact is there are plenty of men who don’t meet my standards (and no my standards don’t include handsome and rich, guys! I’m willing to date somewhat homely, poor and disabled men) that I can meet offline.
My basic criteria are that he be my religion and that we have several shared interests along with a sense of humor and above average intelligence. I’m willing to date outside my race possibly, but for me religion is non-negotiable. I also will date men who are visually impaired, mentally ill, little people, obese, or in wheelchairs. All I want is a man who is my equal.
Evan Marc Katz says
1. Wrong. Unless you can’t afford $27 for an eBook or $797 for my Love U program, in which case, by all means, it wouldn’t be wise to invest in such luxuries.
2. Never. What’s the point of finding lasting love if you have no standards. Can you even BE in love if you have no standards? If that’s your interpretation of words like “compromise”, then that’s fine, but I certainly didn’t tell you to throw our your standards. Put another way: everyone who finds lasting love compromises on SOMETHING. Do what they’re doing. (It’s probably compromising a little on height, weight, age, income, religion, location, education as opposed to character/kindness/commitment/communication)
3. While I do tell people to open up, I’ve never said “date men you have nothing in common with.” Ever.
So basically, you’re reacting to things I HAVEN’T said and willfully misinterpreting things I have said. You’ve made a straw man argument against me and you’ve ably knocked it down. Except nothing you said was true. I wouldn’t have found my OWN wife online because of my “standards” (brilliant profile, younger than me, location). My wife wouldn’t have found me online because of her standards (Catholic, not Jewish). The point is that there are GREAT people online that we foolishly overlook because of our beliefs. I’m challenging you to do what my wife and I didn’t do online. It’s great advice – if you choose to take it. As it stands, you’re getting all huffy over NOTHING.
Your final paragraph makes my case for me. You CAN have a man who is your same religion (it just may box you in a bit if you are a Methodist who needs a Methodist, etc). You can find a guy of above average intelligence. NO ONE IS TELLING YOU OTHERWISE. The only thing you haven’t calculated is that the man you end up with may not be your equal; he may be better than you. Because he will be able to conduct a conversation like an adult, without histrionics, attacks, false accusations and hyperbole. If you find a guy who puts up with your style of arguing, you are a lucky woman indeed.
Karl R says
Rachel,
1. If coaching and dating sites would require 50% of your income, then your immediate concerns are food and shelter. Forget about dating and focus on financial stability.
2. You don’t have to throw all of your standards out the window. Certain standards will help you find and maintain a good relationship; others won’t. The former are essential. The latter will make your search longer and more difficult … so there’s a trade-off if you keep them.
3. You’re supposed to marry someone who shares your values and goals. That’s essential. If you’re like most of us, you’ll discover their values and goals by dating them.
Above average intelligence: Since 49.99% of the population has this, it’s not much of a limiting factor. However, if you actually require someone who is intellectually gifted (top 2%), then it’s extremely limiting.
Sense of humor: Everyone has a sense of humor. But humor is subjective, so not everyone will share your sense of humor. This may or may not be limiting.
Same religion: That depends on which religion you belong to and where you live. If you live in the U.S. and you’re just looking for someone who is Christian, then it’s pretty easy. If you belong to a small religion (i.e. Ba’hai or Yazidi), then your dating pool may be extremely limited.
Despite this, shared religious beliefs can actually simplify your dating search. Look around your church. That’s your dating pool. If that doesn’t work out, find other churches for your religion in your area, and start visiting those.
If you exhaust that extended dating pool, then you know you’re screwed. It might not provide you with a solution, but at least you’ll have some clarity.
Several shared interests: That seems like overkill. My wife and I have one shared interest (dancing). That’s important because it allows us to pursue one of our hobbies and have it be “together” time. The rest of our hobbies are “apart” time.
One of my other interests has an annual local convention. After years of attending that convention, I have concluded that there are two people in this city (of several million) who share that interest -and- are avid dancers. I’m one of them. The other woman is married with kids.
Only one other member of the dance community is also a member of the church … a married woman. (My wife does not share my religious beliefs.) I’ve seen three past or current members of my church at that local convention, and all three of them are men.
To put it another way: If I had your standards, I would be single with no prospects.
In all fairness, I did date one woman from my church who had some interest in two of my interests. But we discovered that we had completely incompatible goals. She wanted lots of kids, and I wanted none. It was a deal-breaker for both of us.
Rachel says
Evan, I’m truly sorry. I shouldn’t have been rude to you on your own site.
I apologize for my behavior.
John says
@ Rachel…no my post was not directed at you, but was rather intended for those who are just looking for attention rather than those who are using dating sites that are seriously looking for a relationship. My point is that many people on these sites are simply just playing around and some…well actually many are not even willing to meet in person but just seek validation and want to be put on a pedestal and others just lead guys on, then suddenly cut all communication and or cancel out of dates etc and not just because they found someone else, but just for kicks. If you are really what you say you are then you are certainly a minority and I praise you for that.
Ty says
Lots of venting going on here. I am a good looking man (I have worked as a wedding model) and I earn a multiple six figure salary. I have had no luck with online dating. I am just finishing up a six month membership on match. I get roughly a 50% response rate on all the emails I send to women. I have met over 20 women in person. Out of those 20 or so I would say 18 misrepresented themselves by posting pictures that were photoshoped or otherwise out of date. The one woman who I really liked in person said that I wanted a relationship more than she did and would not continue to date. Well, if you dont want a relationship then get off the site. I am also an accomplished dancer and can meet women at the dance halls. For all you women and men who misrepresent yourselves shame on you. I’m done with online dating….
Shiryl Dane says
I am a 24 yrs old Filipino young woman I met my husband in asianeuro.com which is an online dating it worked for us and we are doing well now. My husband is from Czech he flew across the ocean just to marry me which I am very grateful about. Actually it was very quick because he cannot wait to marry me and I was in nursing school that time and he is a very smart psychologist. We have two beautiful boys now and we just had our 4 yrs anniversary yesterday 🙂 Honestly, If I were to turn back time, it would have been better if I finished my bachelors before I get married but I didnt regret having a family with him it is my ultimate dream and ultimate happiness to have one 🙂
John says
I’m not saying” online dating does not work”, however I will also say it is very different here in the states and many people are just using dating sites for chatting and attention seeking, sure there are those who are seriously looking and want end their need for online dating, but these type people are really a minority in the grand scheme of things contrary to what most people think…it is the grand illusion. As I had said, to some people it is an addiction for which there is no cure nor any one person who could satisfy their thirst for attention. It would be easier to dethrone the Queen than to get these people to seriously seek an end to their online dating site addiction.
JB says
“to some people it is an addiction for which there is no cure”
John is correct on that statement. The key word being “some” not all. For me in my mind it always has been “emotional gambling”. I love the game and it’s really no different than a roulette wheel at a casino. Btw I don’t casino gamble but I did buy 100 shares of Match stock a few weeks ago @ $13.75 today it’s @ $12.00 🙁 No big deal I’m long on it….lol
That doesn’t mean I’m not seriously looking at the same time though. I’m not nor have I ever been looking for lifetime monogamy. Just more of a serial dater and I’m fine with that.
John says
My point is this…most people, I won’t say all women as there are men who do this too, who post an ad or profile which ever you prefer are not looking to get off of these sites…yes really, no matter what they say. To this type of person they always think there is someone better out there so they never want to commit or try and make something work and their thought process is …”what can you do to please me”. They are takers and there is no compromise. Dating sites are for all kinds of relationship seekers be it serial daters or for those seeking long term as well as those seeking a marriage partner. The problem is the people who are misrepresenting their real intentions.
Antony Gomes says
Most decent women find their mates in college or by age of 25.The rest (feminists, mentally ill, obese etc) turn to online dating.All that they want is attention.If prostitution is legalized I will be first one to leave online dating.😉
hunter says
Antony gomes,
.maybe, women find mates in college or by age 25, the high divorce rate, puts them back into the market..
John says
+1 @ Antony. This does seem to be the case most of the time and most of these women are just attention ho’s, that and or they just love to see a guy get interested in them and then just play games and waste your time with no real intention of ever meeting.
hunter says
John,
..A dating coach may help you with online dating….
Roger says
I’ve read all of this thread with interest as someone who was finding internet dating a mystery, well I did until I read your experiences. Some of the assumptions made have been correct regarding what men and women are looking for, the overly picky individuals etc but I think a lot of the frustrations come from those with low self esteem who think online dating is a easier pill to swallow. I’ll tell you something, it’s not easy, nor is meeting people in the real world! It still needs a mix of qualities which are transferable in both contexts. Judging by the criteria above, as a male I should struggle online? I am a mere 5’6″ but I’ve lost count of the dates I’ve had. I have about 80% success rate in messages returned and the current girl I’m seeing I met online with an HOUR! I’m nothing special, probably a 7. I’ve had two long term relationships via OLD and the last girl was ten years younger. I now have two young children yet I have met an awesome girl who accepts them, but guess what, why shouldn’t she, I make her happy and I’m a fun cheerful guy, be a better you and you will find someone as you all have a quality someone will love.
jamila says
I would like to comment on the topic if online dating works. I have been in many online dating sites for years, just met liars, until recently when I met a handsome, love caring and passionate guy at we have been happily together for a while now. Yes online dating can work, you just need to find the right website, and the right person.
JenniferJeperia says
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Karen says
Hello
My name is Karen, and I have had nothing but great results with online dating. I am 55 yrs old. I have been on 3 dates where I have had contact in actually meeting the person, but they weren’t right for me, meaning there wasn’t that “umph”moment where I knew this was going to work out. I have talked to 2 men who we planned to get together to meet, and unfortunately because of other comitments to family or college, it just didn’t happen, and again, didn’t seem to have the “umph” moment. I have talked to a few soldiers, but they didn’t at all work, being they were scammers and I knew what to look out for, ( they were too good to be true, and asked for money, I cut them right off), and then, I took a chance on another soldier. this one was way different. He didn’t ask me for a thing, then we didn’t talk for awhile, reconnected, and have been very happy ever since. We chat or email every day or sometimes twice a day, we have everything in common, and if I ask him something, he answers me right back, no problem. We tell each other whats on our minds, and ask the very same things as if we were physically on a date with one another. We feel as if we have known each other forever, and have been going strong for almost 4 months now. We feel we are doing the hard work now of getting to know each other, granted, it is in print, but would still be doing the same if we were to be physically being out on a date. The only thing left is to actually be with one another, and that will happen, eventually, when he comes home from being deployed. We are very happy with each other, we both have been through the mill with previous marriages, so we knew what we both wanted and knew what we were looking for. My mom, who is 81 and doesn’t like the world the way it is and lives as if it were 1950, thinks inline dating is wrong, but she is afraid of her own shadow. You have to know what you are looking for, first of all, and you have to go out and meet these people. Get to know them first in print, ask question, just as you would if you were out on a date, see and talk to them about the things you have in common and your differences, and after awhile, meet them.. at a restaurant, a bowling lane, somewhere you feel comfortable in. and whether it is in print, or actually on a date, if something doesn’t feel right, or they try to swoon you with poetry or make things seem too good to be true, then you know they aren’t right. drop them. but you can’t meet the right person if you don’t try.
Tra says
Soreal
I met the love of my life on an online dating site almost three years ago. Now we’re engaged to get married next February. Before I met him, I went out on a date with one other guy, but it didn’t work out. I felt a little skeptical about meeting my now fiance, but when he picked me up for our first date, he looked just like the profile pic he posted online. He was honest and he met my children and love began for us from then on. He has been a great friend, supporter, and role model for my youngest child. So give love a chance and try online dating. I can’t hurt.
Chili says
Words of advice about online dating:
1. Posting pictures on your profile is paramount. But unless the people who are viewing your profile are interested in photography, they are only interested in pictures of YOU. They are NOT interested in pictures of your family, pets, vacation, etc.(unless you’re in these pictures). So don’t post pictures you don’t appear in on your profile.
2. If you make a date and want to break it later, have the decency to call the person on the phone. Only cowards break a date by sending an email or a text message. Also, don’t act like a real jerk by either completely avoiding any contact with the person after you make a date….that is, not calling them, not answering their phone calls, and not returning them……., or waiting until they call you before you tell them you can’t keep the date. Again, have the decency to call them, and make the call when you know you’re not going to keep the date.
3. If someone sends you a message on an internet dating site, and you’re NOT interested, DON’T reply. Sending a reply will probably entice the person to keep sending you more messages. But if you do, don’t say something stupid like you’re already dating someone. It’s not believable….if that’s really your situation, then why are you on the dating site?
4. When you’re talking with someone from a dating site, on the phone, or in person, don’t ramble on and on endlessly about yourself. That’s a major turn off, and something you should know from basic common sense. But many people do it.
5. If the main picture on someone’s profile is appealing to you, and you’re thinking of contacting this person, have the common sense to look at ALL of their pictures, and anything else on their profile that may be important to you, BEFORE you decide to send them a message.
6. If you receive a call from someone you’ve given your number to, and you can’t talk to them at that time, then YOU should return the call. DON’T tell them to call back. They took the initiative to make the call, and obviously didn’t know it was a bad time for you to speak, so YOU should have the decency to make the return call.
7. If someone wants to meet you, but doesn’t have a cell phone or doesn’t want to give you their phone number, my suggestion is to not meet them. What can happen and what has happened is that your date could show up very late or not show up at all for one reason or another, and they may not call to tell you, and you obviously wouldn’t be able to contact them. Also, it’s very unusual these days for anyone who doesn’t have a cell phone. So I really have to wonder what’s going on with people who say they don’t have one.
8.If you’re thinking of traveling out of town to meet someone who doesn’t live locally, you should first view at each other live through Skype, then you both can decide whether or not to meet. If either of you needs a web cam, you can buy one very inexpensively on Amazon. Viewing each other live doesn’t guarantee that there’s going to be a connection if you do decide to meet, but it will reduce the chances that there won’t be. If the person you’re thinking of meeting doesn’t want to do the live view….DON’T MEET THEM.
9. Don’t let your friends use your profile to browse through a dating site, especially if you’re a paid subscriber with full membership privileges. Sometimes the friends will contact other members on the site without your knowledge, the recipients will think it’s you, and when they find out it’s someone else, the outcome is not always friendly, …..OR your friend could contact someone you’ve already met and the date didn’t go well….and you could run into them in the future which could be embarrassing……OR your friends could do something that violates the dating site’s terms and conditions which could get you kicked off the site. Most of these dating sites offer a free membership, which may not allow communication with other members, but do allow viewing other member profiles. So when your friends ask you if they can use your membership to log onto a dating site that you belong to, tell them to sign up for their own free membership.
10. Post the CORRECT city and state where you live in your profile….not a place where you used to live, where you want to live, or where your friend lives. It sounds like basic common sense, but intentionally posting a city, state or country where a person doesn’t live does happen. If you’re contacting someone on a dating site, and you tell the person you live somewhere different than what you have posted on your profile, it’s a real turn off, especially if you live in another state or country.
AdamDickens says
Of course, I know a site where you can find what you want
Nina says
After being on online dating for over 6 years & meeting absolutely nobody I’m hanging my hat up. I don’t get responses from the majority of guys I’m interested in. I get messages from older bald fat guys who are attracted to strong, confident, curvy, attractive women but that’s it. I may chat with guys to see how it goes but ultimately I’m left frustrated when they disappear off the face of the earth after a few days & don’t reply to messages. I’m now completely resigned to spending my life alone. Internet dating is not for me.
Nat says
Nina, I agree with Hunter’s suggestion! Try a dating coach, or at least start with a dating book or course! Pardon my directness, but your online experience doesn’t sound normal. I have close girl friends who bless the day they had a difficult breakup and picked up a dating book to try figuring it all out. Because they say their lives changed and their dating options improved significantly! U have so little to lose by exploring these options.
anon says
Nina’s experiences are not unusual. I am a woman, tried online dating on and off for about 6 years and got nothing. A total of 3 men contacted me and after chatting w/me for a bit, disappeared. Most men assume that if you are a woman you have tons of men and options to pick from. Not me. Then again, I’m about a 2 or 3 in the looks dept and a single mom, so….
hunter says
nina, a dating coach can help with your situation…
Usagima says
Hi, so just a positive experience. I spent the last 5 months trying various dating services to see how they worked etc.. Using this site and other resources like you tube etc I reverse engineered a profile that gave enough of a flavour of who I am and that I thought women would respond to. I modified and changed it based on responses etc.. and the process helped me articulate what I wanted also “Would like a long term relationship but not in a hurry “. There was one lady who caught my eye but I thought I was out of her league. She ‘smiled’ at me and knowing that fortune favours the brave I smiled back, and after 2 weeks agreed to meet. First date I thought I had no chance so relaxed and decided that being out for an evening with a beautiful successful woman wasn’t exactly a bad life experience. 9 dates later things are going well. She had received a lot of contact from guys and some of to be honest was quite shocking. As it turned out it was a single line in my profile that caught her eye in what was probably one of the shorter profiles I wrote.
hunter says
..tell us more about the single line…
usagima says
“…… I figure the that if we meet in a public place and keep our pants on, its highly likely we will survive a first date…..”
Mary says
Of course online dating works!…Through trial and error, and reading advice from experts like Evan, I came up with a ‘formula’ that attracted the kind of men I wanted to meet. Mind you, I am a divorced, stay-at-home-mom in my 40s, so I was looking to meet a man who is family-oriented, financially-secure, and open to long term commitment. Here’s what I did, and recommend these tips to confident, attractive women, of any age. I met many potential matches with this approach, and am happily dating a wonderful man for six months now.
First…I had a short and simple profile. I kept it light-hearted, and only said things I might actually talk about on a first date.
Second…I had 3 pix – a close-up in everyday hair/makeup; a full-body shot, dressed up; and a selfie without makeup. …If a man doesn’t find me attractive in these three states, I’d rather not hear from him in the first place.
Third…I listed myself as ‘Average’ body type. I’m 5’4, size 6/8, and feel that’s average since I am not skinny, and don’t particularly like to work out. It weeded out extremely vain men, who would never respond to an average profile, and attracted the kinder men I am interested in. I also avoided responding to men who sounded arrogant or jaded, in their profile or messages. They ALWAYS proved to be bad first dates.
Fourth…I did not put preferences for height/weight, income, marital status, kids/no kids in my profile. I did put preferences for religion and education, because those are more values-based. You’re going to weed people out based on their profile anyway, so why make yourself sound picky in yours? I think you attract better respondents by coming across as approachable…compared to most people’s laundry list of requirements.
Lastly… and I believe this is key… I NEVER initiated contact, winked, or wrote much back in my replies. I am a firm believer that masculine men are the pursuers, and prize what they go after themselves. Don’t believe the hogwash that it’s smart to approach men first. You will meet men that way, but you’ll never know if he would have made the effort himself. I also think it’s good to create a little intrigue, in not saying so much in early communication.
Anyway, online dating has been good to me, and I think it’s the best way to meet potential matches you’d never meet IRL. I encourage anyone who is not getting the results they’d like, to ask others what worked for them. Try something different, and adjusting your attitude or expectations. 🙂
Jenny says
Hi ive been on online dating for years 2 years.. At that time I was slim and very attractive..and I had many responses like tons….I dated the first guy who charmed me and he turned out to be a real jerk..Then I dated a real unattractive guy and he was boring and insecure..there were others poets who were paupers and others…I stopped . and decided to enjoy myself and not focus on dating and just be myself….I was still slim and attractive…. I had a ton of admirers and dates… I just had dinner dates and drinks ….took stock of everyone who wanted a little more and I realised none of them I would marry… I stopped going out and did some serious praying and made changes in my life… I started hanging around an older guy and we were friends and eventually we got engaged and married…. I’m no longer slim and attractive but I live in a fulfilling and real relationship….. When I look back those days when I was good looking had only led me to trouble…..I wasn’t one of those who would take advantage of my looks to find a wealthy guy or stuff like that…so I’m happy and my husband is happy in our life together…….there’s a point to this…. We are that same person online and offline and we meet the same ones at both times in our life.
Hellacska says
Evan, you got it 100% again….I couldn’t agree more.
I met my ex-fiancé (ok ok ex, but we lived together etc) on Okcupid. As a nanny it is hard for me to meet new people, especially that I’m getting near 35 and all my used-to-be-single friends are not giving bottles to their babies, or cocooning with their bf. We are not having parties anymore, nor make new friends easily. And I don’t hit on strangers on the metro:p
I keep staying in the game, even if there was a week with 5 dates (hmm), so sometimes really time consuming, but you start to get to know how to pick men better and better, so success rate goes higher, and honestly I had only one weird-ish date lately, rest was enjoyable and cool guys.
In 2000s it gathered lots of loners and pervs but now in 2016 it is a very average and common way to get to know people, and date. Just like in real life……
AZman says
People, in today’s social encironment, online dating is fantastic. I am a successful and divorced middle aged man in my mid 40s and I find that there are a slew of wonderful 40-50 year companion seeking ladies out there. Yes, as a guy, my response rate is about 10% which I find quite acceptable. Not sure what I would do if my response rate went up to even 30%. That will be ovewhelming. I cast a wide net then I can comfortable pay attention to the limited responses I get. It is all in the strategy and it is a numbers game. Besides I still have a hetic job and other life interest to tend to.
So my fellow men and women in cyber dste world, keep up your efforts and do not give up. Just need to weed through frogs and a few coffee meetups in hope of finding “one”. Actually, I found two in the last 8 months.
hunter says
AZman,, you lucky dog….
Keith says
I’m Keith and here are my thoughts,
I’m working on a blog called “Out of Our Hands: The Futility of Male Dating” based on a few premises.
Premise One: The one tangible, observable, empirical feature about a man, his height, is out of his control. A man who is born with short parents or even average parents (which I’ll address in a second) will not be “tall”. He may be, at best, “average” (at or under 5’10), but likely he won’t be “tall” at or above 5’11 (for simplicity, we’ll just say 6 feet). So that’s completely different from one’s weight (man or woman) in the sense that, granted, controlling for thyroid conditions, genetic pre-dispositions to return energy as mass (i.e. bodyfat), accessibility to healthy foods and activity (i.e. lifestyle conditions), a man or woman can influence her or his body…but not his or her height. That’s something that women, I don’t at least, appreciate that the one physical characteristic that is likely to lead to having a female companion is something a man is powerless over.
Premise Two: Women give awful dating advice
http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/141_dating_advice.html http://www.nicknotas.com/blog/women-give-terrible-dating-advice-to-men/
The one group whom you’re trying to choose from for a dating partner is the one group who can’t give you any insight into that. In other words, it’d be like going to Iran and your local guide doesn’t speak Farsi- the one person you’d think could give you insight into Persian culture can’t. In this context, it’s because women don’t know what they want, and what SUCKS, is the one thing they do want is the one thing you can’t do anything about: height.
Premise 3: Having said that, we have to deal with the fact that how we make a woman “feel” (disregarding our heights) is something we can’t do anything about. In theory, EVEN IF you’re > 6 feet tall, that won’t matter if at the first date she doesn’t “feel” anything for you, so we have to live our lives knowing that whatever we accomplish in life, if we want to be in love, we’re S.O.L.
It’s something few women understand. I had one woman admit, “It’s true. A lot of it doesn’t apply to us. We just have to show up,” and that’s just it: all you have to do is to “show up” and that’s the date. Since we’re the “pursuers” we’re the ones who have to “impress” or to “intrigue” you and how we go about doing that…NOT EVEN YOU know why.
In conclusion, there’s a fine line between “complaining” and “making a point”. I don’t mean to gripe for the sake of griping since that doesn’t accomplish anything, however, I’m making a point to give all the women who see this the perspective that at least you have control over your dating lives, whereas, men don’t.
It’s something to think about.
Karl R says
Keith,
Premise 2: You apparently haven’t succeeded at dating. Furthermore, you claim that male dating is futile. Therefore, any dating advice you give is at least as worthless as the worst advice from women. (Especially since you didn’t bother to give any advice.)
Premise 1: The three most important factors for dating success (the attitude with which you approach dating, the actions which you take, and your persistence despite previous failures) are all completely within your control. They’re less tangible than height, but they are a lot more predicative of your ultimate success.
Premise 3: In the early steps of dating, you shouldn’t be trying to change how a woman feels about you. You should be trying to discover whether she’s interested in you. If not, there’s no need to waste time. Move on and find out how a different woman feels about you. (That’s an example of putting actions and persistence into practice. If you can maintain a positive attitude, that’s the complete trifecta.)
Premise 4: Women have the same amount of control over their dating lives as men do. A woman can’t date me unless I want to date her. I can’t date a woman unless she wants to date me. She couldn’t “show up” for a first date unless I was sufficiently interested to ask her out. She couldn’t get a second date unless I felt like asking her out a second time.
Conclusion: If there’s a fine line between “complaining” and “making a point”, then your post falls squarely in the “complaining” category.
Each time I decided to pursue a woman, the odds of ending up in a permanent relationship were rather low … but the cost of trying was also extremely low. Most importantly, I only needed to succeed once.
My dating success is not measured by the number of times I was unsuccessful. It’s likely that I was unsuccessful more times than you were. It’s almost guaranteed that Evan was unsuccessful more times than you were. My dating success is measured by the one time I succeeded. We celebrated our fourth anniversary last month.
hunter says
karl………Bravo…!…Bravo…!
Keith says
Karl,
Thanks for the feedback.
So about my first premise: what “actions” are you referring to? Second, give me your interpretation of “persistence”. If the wom(e)an you would like to have a dating relationship with does not like you (for some reason you numbered the list omitting the number 2), per premises 2 & 3, and even she doesn’t know why doesn’t, then, pretell, what “actions” (or how will your “persistence”) will matter?
What I’m putting forth is, it’s people like you (if you don’t mind my saying) that are, frankly, the problem. You’re not appreciating the fact that there are some men, probably > we think, who don’t have ANY success in dating off/online, yet, they’re told by people like you in so many words, “Oh, well, as long as you have a positive attitude, and are ‘confident’ (my most detested of all buzzwords), and are ‘outgoing’, then you’ll succeed! It just hinges on your ‘attitude’ (tied for “confidence” as my most loathed buzzword)!” Bud, it doesn’t matter, ok? If she’s already married; if she’s already in a committed relationship; if she just plain doesn’t like you, regardless, how your “attitude” and your “confidence” are going to change that is something I haven’t seen any conclusive evidence for, and ultimately, men that hear those types of things are going to have false hope and their expectations shattered like a Ming vase dropped from the Sears Tower.
I understand what you meant about “moving on” since that will (probably) help your emotional health but what I don’t think you’re understanding is that a lot of men who are on these types of comment threads (i.e. men who fail at finding a partner via online dating) are men who, attitude or not, can’t find a partner- one reason perhaps being < 6 feet tall, which, as I felt I made rather clear, is beyond his control.
Lastly, about “showing up”, Karl, who asked out whom? If a man goes to the trouble of asking out a woman, arranging for everything, financing the event, would it be more likely he’d want to continue the relationship than the alternative? Of course women don’t get second dates, but I’d say it’s disproportional in the same vein that “attitude” is 9 out of 10 units my life experience than what actually happens (I’m being facetious there parodying the famous “Attitude” speech) that that happens compared to men not receiving second dates. If you “Google” studies in the reporting of which group is more likely to receive unsolicited messages on online dating sites, obviously, you’ll find attractive women, far and away, receive offers than men do. So I don’t think I’m wrong to assert that when we compare the two genders’ controls over their dating lives, women, clearly, have more control over theirs than men do.
Karl, bottom line, any woman who receives attention regularly probably doesn’t realize how less attention she’d receive if she weren’t attractive or if she were male. Because men are the “pursuers” then they have to be rejected far more than women do and it’s not “complaining”- it’s make a sociological observation that in the 50-60 years that women have made far-reaching advances in virtually all walks of life that we’re still confined to the gender role (we being males) of being the “pursuer” which I’d like to point out, per my blog, that it means conceding a lot of power.
Karl R says
Keith,
I believe that you misinterpreted some of what I said, but I will happily clarify and expand upon what I said.
Attitude: When I was in my teens and early twenties, I had a very similar attitude to yours. In my mid-20s I realized that a small percentage of women (somewhere between 1% and 5%) found me attractive, even though I was scrawny and geeky. At that point, I realized that I could succeed. I just had to focus my efforts on that small segment of women.
Confidence: I didn’t start with confidence. When I realized how crucial confidence was to dating, I learned how to fake confidence. Then I discovered that some of the most “confident” men that I knew were just faking it too.
I learned to fake confidence before I had any success. As I started to fake it better, a slightly larger percentage of women began finding me attractive, and I began having some small successes.
Redefining “Success”: In 2008, I met woman, went on two dates with her, but never got a third date. In most people’s view, that would not be a success.
My perspective is different — After spending 3 hours in Saturday morning yoga classes, my t-shirt soaked with sweat, I went into a diner for some coffee and breakfast. I sat down at the counter next to an attractive Argentinian woman, struck up a conversation, got her email address, an excuse to contact her, and eventually two dates. A year before that, I would not have had the courage to do that.
I looked at my dating experiences and saw (in the small successes) evidence that I was eventually going to succeed. It would have been as easy (or easier) to focus on the failures and develop a sense of futility. But my ultimate success proves that my small successes were pointing toward my ultimate success.
Actions: In that diner, there were four empty seats. I chose one that put me next to an attractive young woman. I gave myself the goal of striking up a conversation with her. If things were going well, it was up to me to get her email or phone number before we left.
You need to take actions that create opportunities. With zero opportunities, you have no chance of success. With a small number of opportunities, you have a low chance of success. If you generate a large number of opportunities, you guarantee your eventual success.
Persistence: I never “persisted” with a woman who was disinterested. I persisted by continuing to meet and pursue other women.
When real life opportunities were lacking, I would go online. But as I became more comfortable approaching women in a wide variety of circumstances, I was rarely lacking a “next” opportunity to pursue in real life.
Realistic Expectations: Most women won’t be attracted to me. I dated the minority who were. Many of the women who agreed to a first date weren’t interested in a second date. That’s normal. Very few of those second dates evolved into any kind of committed relationship. Therefore, if I wanted a committed relationship, I knew that it would take a significant number of first and second dates to get one.
Of the committed relationships, none of them lasted more than a year … until the one with my wife.
Those are realistic expectations.
You seem to be fixating on women who aren’t available or who aren’t interested. You should be writing them off and moving on. Instead, you seem to be seeking some way to succeed (whether through attractiveness, confidence, attitude, actions, persistence or whatever). Successful daters (of both sexes) are too smart to fall into that line of thinking.
False Hopes vs. Real Actions: If you have taken the time to develop “hopes” for a particular relationship, then it’s highly likely that you’re taking too long to act. I didn’t “hope” for a relationship with my wife. I asked her out to see what would happen. (Another man in that social circle was hoping for a relationship with her. I blew by him like he was standing still … because he was standing still.)
If I thought a woman was interesting (and interested in me), it was my goal to hit on her before I developed any hopes.
There are three major benefits to this course of action. First, if the woman wasn’t interested, I wasn’t even sure that I would really like her. Therefore, I was less bothered by the “rejection”. Second, since she expressed her disinterest before getting to know me, it didn’t feel personal. She was clearly rejecting me for fairly superficial reasons. Third, it created the illusion of confidence.
Over / Under 6 feet Tall: I’m less than 6′ tall (not by much). Evan is 5’9″. One of my buddies is 5’4″. He got married 6 months before I did. Tall men have an easier time. Young women have an easier time. Beautiful people of both sexes have an easier time. Even for those people, it’s rarely easy. It’s just a bit less difficult.
If you’re waiting for a level playing field, you’ll be waiting until you die. Learn to succeed even when the odds are stacked against you. Better yet, learn how to maximize the few advantages you have.
Shorter people than you have gotten married. Stop making excuses and learn from their example. (Poorer, older, fatter and uglier people have gotten married too.)
Power / Control is Equal Among the Sexes: Take a moment and visualize the most repulsive woman you’ve ever seen. Do you have her image fixed clearly in your mind?
Does she have the power to make you pursue her? Can she exert some form of control to get you to ask her out?
Power. Is. Equal. Between. The. Sexes.
Evan Marc Katz says
Thank God you’re back, man.
Emily, the original says
Karl R
What a positive, well written, well thought-out post! Thank you. 🙂
S. says
Thanks, Karl. I knew this stuff but it’s good to read it again with bold lettering. 🙂
I understand why it’s so hard not to keep thinking of those who are disinterested. It’s so many people! And you already are acquainted with them so it seems easier than continually starting over. But it’s a numbers game in some ways. I still reiterate that I don’t want to go out on 300 dates. I don’t want to go out on 100 dates even if it was guaranteed that number 100 would be the right one. I would just be so exhausted by that time I don’t think I’d appreciate him or would be in the right mind to really take him in.
I take breaks so I can stay positive and bubbly when I do go back to dating, even if it means meeting less people. And I totally agree with building on small successes. That works in many things in life. The sorting can get difficult and successes few and far between. But they do happen! It’s more of a challenge and a longer period of time for some of us, but I too am convinced everyone could find someone eventually if they persist.
learn how to maximize the few advantages you have.
Thanks!
Keith says
Karl,
To be honest with you, this really isn’t getting us anywhere so it’s denigrated into a race for the last word. I’m actually tired of exchanging replies so this’ll be my last one and I forfeit the last word (because I’m sure you’ll reply). For now, listen, can we agree, at least, that more women get asked out for dates than men do and that more women reject men than men reject women?
Attitude: Karl, what does recognizing at least 95% of women found you unattractive prove? If you’re going to head this with “attitude” define that term for me. Seriously, if a lexicographer tasked you with defining “attitude” what would you provide? To me, it’s a buzzword that is thrown around much too often and is an excuse not to recognize things are they are but how we “perceive” them (Check out Barbara Ehrenreich’s 2009 publication Bright Sided: How the Relentless Pursuit of Positive Thinking Undermines America)
Confidence: Again, it’s a “buzzword”. I think the danger in having “confidence” is it makes you disregard women’s boundaries and their cues since you’re so “assured” of yourself that you don’t realize that you’re a big fish in a small pond when you starting thinking you’re the shit. I know that’s not what you said, but, Karl, how else do you define that term? What I would say is, you just can’t think you “need” to have a relationship since it’ll make you anxious with too much pressure on yourself, yet, it’s di, and I think that words like “attitude” or “confidence” don’t appreciate the fact that so much of your dating success is out of your hands (which I’ll get to next).
Redefining “Success”: You’re right. In 2008, paying for someone else’s meal/beverage/venue ticket twice and having that person never speak to you would not be viewed as successful if the goal was to continue speaking with that person. What’s your point?
Similarly, I’m not sure what your point is when you bring up the anecdote about the Argentine woman because all I got from it was you evidently (frankly) aren’t that hygienic (which men and women both would be repulsed by) and that you spend 3 hours at yoga class which I’m wondering how you have that much time on your hands. So, your hygiene and time management aside, ok, dude, I used to listen to those types of stories both in print and anecdotally and, per the false hopes I alluded to, it made me think that I could just talk to “anyone” since that meant I had “confidence” and I was being proactive. Through experience I can ask you these questions:
a) How did you start the conversation? Since she was Argentine did you ask her the same question Jim Carrey asked the Austr(ail)ian in the beginning of Dumb and Dumber “That’s a lovely accent you have. New Jersey?” In other words, how did you spark a conversation sopped with sweat without looking creepy, and the sweat aside, did you say, “Hi. I’m Karl. What’s your name?” See, this is where context comes into play…
b) How did you know she wasn’t already married? How did you know this woman didn’t already have a boyfriend? If you weren’t sure about her availability, how did you know her dude wasn’t going to show up and catch hitting on his wife or girlfriend?
c) Whether or not you were sure about her availability, let’s say she was, in fact taken. How would you deal with the (off-the-charts) awkwardness of placating a man for hitting on his girlfriend or wife?
d) Ok. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, by some miracle she was single (assuming). How would you deal with it, then, if a fellow male competitor told you, “Hey why don’t you leave the woman alone and come back when you’ve taken a shower?”
See, my point is, very rarely, if ever, do we address context when it comes to “confidence”. The fact is, no matter how “confident” you’re acting (which, again, you have yet to define), there are contextual factors that don’t get addressed and they probably don’t because they’re beyond a given man’s control.
Actions: This is basically a regurgitation of the “confidence” section. Number one, dude, how many women at this place do you hit on? You’d already gotten the contact info of an Argentine woman so why were you getting someone else’s (unless they’re the same person)? Also, is the manager aware that you enter her or his establishment without showering and that you strike up conversations with people you don’t know when, if you’re not careful, despite your best intentions, might make you persona non grata.
Maybe instead of creating a “large number of opportunities” you can prioritize how likely a woman will be receptive to you, take contextual factors into consideration (e.g. what you have to talk about, the environment, and IF SHE’S SINGLE to start with).
Persistence: “Wide variety of circumstances”, huh? Dude, where do you live where there are that many women who aren’t already with their friends and/or at least one man who probably wouldn’t appreciate you hitting on his partner…?
Realistic Expectations: Sir, this is probably the heart of our discussion and my entire point….how do you know that there aren’t men who will never get beyond a second date?
This is where I get a little perturbed by the whole “It’s just a numbers game” attitude since it’s not acknowledging that there do, in fact, exist men who will never get beyond a second date…for factors beyond their controls.
Your definition of “success” that I’m getting is: “If I get dates, then I must be doing something right and I’ll focus on that instead of being a Negative Nelson J” and, Karl, that’s not success–that’s plateauing.
I get dates, too, dude. Most of the guys on this thread probably get dates from online dating, yet, don’t go any further than that, hence, the reason for the thread, so while I suppose for your own emotional health it’s good that you can not get too bogged down in spending your money on people you’ll never talk to again (i.e. dating) but there comes a point that you realize, “Damn not only am I out all this money buying people dinner, drinks, and/or tickets, but I’m not getting a return on it either.”
False Hopes vs. Real Actions: First: Dude, are you interested or not in her? Ok so if you’re interested how are you not “hoping” for a relationship with her? Isn’t that what “interest” means is you’d like to have a consensual relationship with a woman assuming you’re not gay? Again define your terms, which, frankly, you’ve done a rather shitty job of, Karl.
Second: “It’s not personal, Sonny. It’s strictly business.” I always think of that line from The Godfather whenever I hear “personal” haha. It makes me laugh because whenever someone says not to take it “personal” in the context of dating it’s a euphemism for making peace someone doesn’t like you (see Conclusion for how language masks the truth). Despite the fact that the woman doesn’t “hate” doesn’t mean that it’s not “personal” in the sense that her rejection of you isn’t reflective of anything about you. Au contraire, obviously, it must be kind of personal otherwise she would be interested, right? Anyway, also, I’ll address that more in the Conclusion.
Third: If you’re going to fake an emotion, take acting classes while you’re at it.
Over / Under 6 feet Tall: Yeah I love how you feel compulsed to point out “not by much” that you’re less than 6 feet tall. Really need to put that out there that you’re 5’11.9999” right?
So you’re basically just repeating me using different phrasing. “Easy” is “less difficult” by definition. Easy in the English language is “less difficult” than an alternative. How about we agree to this: Young, beautiful women have the “least difficult” time if we’re going to measure difficulty by “more or less”?
You’re right. It’s not a level playing field, Karl. Yet, for whatever reason, you expect men via “confidence” or “the right attitude” to expect it to be a level playing field. You’ve already given two anecdotes about how you hit on two women, Argentine and young respectively, who probably would be risen a few inches above you on said playing field, yet, you make it sound like all you had to be was to be “confident” and, bam, you’re suddenly on their levels, so, what I’m getting at is, Karl, you (in a lot of ways during this debate) can’t have it both ways and tell men, “Hey, yeah, it’s not a level playing field, bro” and then turn around and brag about how it’s that easy to rise to said level.
This speaks to what I’m going to wrap up the whole diatribe with. Ok. With all due respect, Karl, the woman who’s your wife, is she someone you got excited over immediately? Is she what we’d call a “knock out”? She probably isn’t, is she? If she’s not, then it probably took some time (focus on that phrase “some time”) for you to want her as your partner in life and vice versa. What I’m getting at is, she probably wasn’t necessarily someone, immediately, whom you got “excited” over; she probably wasn’t someone who had option after option after option after option like a “knock out” would; you had the utmost good fortune that the options she did have weren’t sufficient enough to make her choose them over you, and thus, fortune allowed for all the things beyond your control to work in your favor, right, and even though we would probably try to think of a euphemism for this, yes, to an extent, you “settled” as did the aforemtioned “poorer, older, fatter, and uglier people” who “[got] married, too.” We seem to avoid using the word “settling” but, really, that’s what you have to do is to redefine success, and, that, I’ll agree with.
This is what I would criticize is this practice of telling men to have “confidence” and to have a “good attitude” because those things encourage to keep going for women who aren’t interested in you, nor are available, nor are even that easy to keep since they’re very likely to have plenty of not-you options.
Karl, I could have been like you and gotten married to a woman whom I connected with but not a woman I found myself “excited” over. She was cute, intelligent, and we connected emotionally; she accepted me as me. However, in my stupidity, I bought into the bullshit that we call “dating advice” and I thought I could do better and I heeded the advice of “not settling” if I had “confidence” and the “right attitude” and, thus, I missed out on someone I probably would have had a very cohesive and meaningful marriage with.
As an aside, I actually told this to a figure competitor on OKCupid, actually, in the intervening two days: “[The reason that you have to give the admonition that unqualified men need not apply is because men who aren’t at your body appearance level are encouraged to have ‘confidence’ and to have the ‘right attitude’ to approach you even though you make it very clear you prefer men with aesthetically favorable bodies]”. Imagine her frustration every time a “confident” guy hits on her at the restaurant after yoga….
Power / Control is Equal Among the Sexes:
Karl, my question to you is:
What if she’s the only type of woman who’ll date me or another man on this thread?
See, this is where you want it both ways: you ridicule men for wanting to date women who aren’t reciprocal in their interests, nor are available, yet you’re agreeing with me that I’d be justified to turn away a “repulsive” woman.
So I’ll ask you again: WHAT IF A “REPULSIVE” WOMAN IS THE ONLY TYPE OF WOMEN WHO WILL DATE ME AND/OR WILL BE AVAILABLE TO DATE?
Some men have no other options, Karl. Despite their “attitudes” and their “confidence” the only women who will agree to be their dating partners are not women they, in turn, would be excited enough about to want let alone to maintain relationships with. This is the point at which we need a paradigm shift: It does not matter your “confidence”, nor your “attitude”. All that matters is whether or not a woman to whom you’re attracted will:
A) Not have a man interested in her who will compete with you up to and including intimidating you
B) Be available (which is by no means likely)
C) Be attracted to you as well (the hardest)
A, B, C are the three components that you increasingly less control over, which is why, honestly, the only dating advice, if I were to give any, that I’d take even remotely seriously is to learn self-defense. Evidently your competitor you alluded earlier to wasn’t a violent-prone man. Trust me, dude: a lot of men would not have any problem assaulting you if it meant making you look bad in front of a woman you’re both vying for, with the bonus of (legitimately) boosting your confidence (i.e. so it’s not a buzzword anymore). Unfortunately, since the entire onus falls on to the man to be the “pursuer” and women are the “pursued” and use euphemisms to gloss over the truth of that with “less difficult” and “playing fields” and so forth we have made zilch in any kind of progress. This is what George Carlin alluded to in his 1991 standup routine in which he asserted that “there is a language created by smug, white people” that masks the truth in the way of euphemisms: “The Pentagon doesn’t lie to the public it engages in misinformation; companies don’t lay off people anymore–they curtail redundancies is the workforce resulting in people succumbing to a negative cashflow…THEY’RE FUCKING BROKE!” and now, in 26 years later, we probably describe involuntary celibacy as “being single” because you’re not “confident” enough in situations you have very little, if any, control over despite how good/bad your “attitude” is.
In conclusion…I am an involuntarily celibate man. I’ve been fed enough bullshit either from you, from “David D’Angelo”, from “Evan Marc Katz”, from Will Smith’s character in Hitch and it smacks of the medieval friar charging money for “indulgences” which probably isn’t too unlike “dating tips” 800 years later in the U.S.–forking over money to someone who can’t change a situation that’s not meant to be changed either being one’s mortality or one’s involuntary celibacy.
To quote a friend on how to end one’s involuntary celibacy:
“The truth is, there are no simple answers to complex issues with thousands of factors. Sometimes the advice does work so it gets repeated… or at least it seems to be the cause for success. A detailed analysis of why any human pairing occurs has virtually an unlimited number of contributing factors. Insisting that there is ‘An answer’ is simplistic thinking. ”
That was my friend’s point just like it’s my point: Karl, some people just can’t find a partner they genuinely love; at least women are valued for something that they can control: their appearances. Sure it’s not GUARANTEED like death and taxes they’ll find a man they genuinely love, but, as I hope you agreed with me earlier, they’ll at least have options. Men, on the other hand, just as you yourself are proof of, have to be grateful for the women who are willing to be their partners. It’s not about “attidude” “confidence” “outlook” it’s just simple facing reality, ok?
And if you think you’re like Tom Cruise, Karl, I’d agree. Not because you’re (probably not) a scientology adherent, nor a celebrity, but simply because…”you can’t handle the truth”.
Evan Marc Katz says
Like our President-Elect says: “Sad.”
Karl R says
Keith,
I recognize that everyone on this thread will have to endure another diatribe of yours (since you will feel obliged to get in the last word). Hopefully the answers I provide to a few of your questions will benefit other men enough to make it worthwhile.
a) I was going to start the conversation with the Argentinian woman by commenting on the hurricane that had hit the city one week before. Before I could, the waitress mistook us for a couple (despite the clear mismatch), and I used that as an icebreaker instead.
One of the best icebreakers is commenting on a current shared experience, especially if it’s an uncommon circumstance (like a recent hurricane … or getting mistaken for being the boyfriend / girlfriend of a total stranger).
b) The woman wasn’t wearing a ring on her finger. As for other serious relationships … That’s the point of starting the conversation. I was figuring out whether she was available, and whether I wanted to ask for her contact info.
c) If a boyfriend showed up, I would have complimented him on his charming girlfriend. Unless you’re crude and creepy, it’s hardly awkward.
d) If another man decided he was going to be a “competitor” and made such a rude statement, I would have been delighted. The woman was already enjoying our conversation, and that kind of interruption is highly likely to get a woman to jump to my defense.
This exemplifies the difference between my attitude / confidence and yours. You have pointed out many reasons why I shouldn’t have expected to succeed. Despite all those reasons, I felt comfortable asking a complete stranger, “So, how badly was your place hit by the hurricane?”
You fear failure. You fear awkwardness. I don’t. I recognize them as things I will encounter on the road to success.
If the woman had responded to my initial conversation with some degree of disinterest, I would have respected her boundaries and not pursued the conversation further. If the woman had a boyfriend, I would have respected the relationship but enjoyed the conversation.
Ironically, you went out of your way to insult my hygiene (and time-management skills). I completely agree that sweat-soaked yoga clothes are rather gross. But apparently, I am more confident, and therefore more successful, when I’m gross than you are when you’re dressed in your best.
Actions (redux):
You talk about prioritizing based on the likelihood that the woman will be receptive, and you talk about taking contextual factors into account. Fine.
When doing that, does it motivate you to take action and create dating opportunities?
I walked into a diner (where I expected zero dating opportunities), saw one opportunity (at really low odds), and decided that I had nothing better to do for that half hour than take a long-shot.
I found out whether she was single and interested in me by starting a conversation. And as I mentioned in the original anecdote, that was the goal I had given myself.
You would have let your fears (including your fear of getting beaten up by a hypothetical potential rival) give you an excuse not to act at all.
When I had the opportunity to figure out which women were the most receptive, and the opportunity to prioritize accordingly, I did even better.
Realistic Expectations (redux):
Nobody is perfect. Everyone compromises on something. Furthermore, we can expect to get someone who is approximately our equal (a little better in some areas, a little worse in others).
I’m not a knockout, so I never expected to end up with a knockout. (I probably could have, but it would have required compromising on qualities that I find far more important.) Some women find me attractive, so I expected to end up with someone that I found attractive. (My wife is cute and sexy.)
That “excited” feeling that you were seeking … it’s called infatuation. It wears off. If you ended a good relationship in order to chase a temporary feeling, then you probably weren’t being very realistic.
(I realize that you put it under persistence, but you can also realistically expect most women to go out with a small group of their friends. Start a conversation with the group. Problem solved.)
Keith asked:
“So I’ll ask you again: WHAT IF A ‘REPULSIVE’WOMAN IS THE ONLY TYPE OF WOMEN WHO WILL DATE ME AND/OR WILL BE AVAILABLE TO DATE?”
Since you previously connected with a woman who was cute, intelligent, and accepted you as you are, it is reasonable to expect that you can date a cute woman again (unless you’ve let yourself go to hell in the meantime).
Keith’s friend said:
“The truth is, there are no simple answers to complex issues with thousands of factors. Sometimes the advice does work so it gets repeated… or at least it seems to be the cause for success. A detailed analysis of why any human pairing occurs has virtually an unlimited number of contributing factors. Insisting that there is ‘An answer’ is simplistic thinking.”
You both are really overthinking the issue. Over 250 million people in the U.S. are married. A substantial number are below average (by whatever metric you choose to use). None of them did a detailed analysis of human pairings or solved the complex issues of the nearly unlimited factors at play.
In general, they went out, met people and took actions which created opportunities. Eventually, it worked.
There are best practices, which work better than worst practices. Doing nothing … that’s in the “worst practices” category. I tried it for a decade. It’s very “safe”, but it generated very few dates.
About 11 years ago, I decided to get proactive about my dating. I spent some time reading the advice that was out there (and even longer learning which advice was actually correct / useful). Instead of accepting your premise (dating is largely outside of a man’s control), I decided to find out how much of my dating success was within my control.
I was truly surprised by some of my results.
Marika says
Thank you, Karl!
I was going to reply to Keith’s message to let him know you’re spot on, but I doubt he’d listen. So to any other men feeling like Keith, from a woman’s perspective, Karl is right. Women dig confidence. We differ in terms of what we find attractive physically (side note: I’m a tall women and have dated shorter men, and my friend is happily married to a much shorter man than her), but I don’t know any women who don’t find confidence attractive.
I had a friend in university who was not that physically attractive, but his confidence made you feel like he must be attractive. He was inundated with female attention. Even if you need to “fake it til you make it”, & unless you’re a narcissist, I think developing more confidence would be a great step.
In the example of the Argentinian woman, Keith, I would imagine even if she was in a relationship, she would’ve been flattered & impressed by Karl’s interest in her.
Karl, I know you don’t date men, but if you had to give similar tips to women..what would they be? I’m very heart centred, so find it hard to approach dating like you did, so logically. What have you picked up about what works best for women, if you don’t mind me asking? I’m tall & blond & thin (and according to some of the guys should have it easy in dating, but I don’t!). Thank you in advance 🙂
Karl R says
Marika,
I’m going to assume that you’re asking from the perspective of a woman who is not trying to take the role of the initiator (traditionally the man’s role). If you are going to be the initiating, driving force, roughly follow the advice I give to men, but expect slightly worse results (because some guys get weirded out or turned off).
Some advice is universal. The only thing you get to change is you. You can get someone who is approximately equal to you, better in some areas, worse in others. Everyone compromises, but you get to choose what you compromise on. The more requirements you have, the longer your search will take.
As a woman who is trying to get a guy to make a move, you want the man to feel like his advance will be well received. Evan’s advice is to make eye contact and smile. I completely agree. (On the other hand, avoiding eye contact is a strong suggestion that you don’t want the man to approach you.)
As Keith implied (and I will confirm), most men are intimidated about walking up to a group of women. You’ll seem more approachable if you’re flying solo.
Be aware of physical barriers. For example, if there’s a table between you and a man, you will seem less approachable than if you’re on the near side of the table.
On the more proactive level, genuine compliments will put you on someone’s radar. There was a woman who I was strongly considering asking out (except I started dating my wife first) whom I noticed, because she told me, “I always enjoy watching you dance, because you seem to be having the best time.”
Until that woman gave me that compliment, I hadn’t noticed that she had existed, even though we’d been in the same dance venue more than once. Afterwards, we started becoming friends. If things hadn’t worked out with my wife, I likely would have asked that woman out next.
That segues nicely into another point — get introduced. I met my wife when a mutual friend introduced us. I was interested in the mutual friend, so I was nice to her cute little friend. It turned out that the cute little friend was the real catch.
Other points have been covered here repeatedly. Be happy. Have fun. Be easy to get along with. Don’t create drama. Give mulligans (credit to Bridget Katz for that one).
In addition, don’t underestimate confidence for women, too. I could write pages of anecdotes, but it’s simpler to say that confidence in women is equally important as confidence in men.
As a final point, don’t let dating difficulties sap your confidence. As I told Keith, dating is difficult for everyone. Thanks to the paparazzi, we can watch the world’s sexiest people struggle with it. Dating is hard. That’s normal. You’re just trying to make it somewhat easier for yourself.
YOLO says
Online dating is a great way to set up dates, however I find a lot of women on dating sites to be rude and really abuse the fact that it’s easy for them.
There is nothing worse then sending messages to women only to get flat out ignored. The worse is when the woman sends you an ice breaker and then goes onto ignore you after sending her an initial message.
For those on here talking as if height is the be all and end all. I am 6 ft , slim and I still struggle immensely. Women in general online, even the ugly ones are extremely selective and unless they find your photos attractive you are not going to get anywhere. It’s frankly annoying and unfair for guys.
the good news is that looks are subjective.
Marika says
Karl R,
Thank you. You were right in your assumption. I don’t want to be the ‘alpha female’ (and that’s not naturally who I am, anyway), but equally I don’t want to sit on my hands and wait for a man to magically appear. I want to maximise my chances of meeting a great partner, and not turn into a bitter person who gripes about how hard dating is. I was impressed with your approach and how you took dating seriously and made concerted efforts to improve yourself and your dating outcomes. I was also impressed at how you looked at things – ie. many people who try online dating with no success after several months look at it as a failure, but you looked at how it helped in a general sense & what you got out of it.
While I’m optimistic and positive about dating in general and would never gripe at how horrible dating/men/the whole world is, I must admit I find it hard sometimes to keep going back and trying again and again when things happen like people ghost/only want sex/come on strong at first & then flake out (which is what I’m going through at the moment). So I find your words and attitude helpful and encouraging.
I know you’re married, but as many people have asked, please come back and check this out from time to time and chime in when you can 🙂
PS I’m assuming when you referred to the anecdote about the Argentinian woman, you do Bikram yoga (due to the sweat, which ‘cold’ yoga doesn’t really produce)? Shout out to a fellow Bikram devotee!!
di says
well it does work for some people. Both my daughters met their husbands though Match.
Not to be plugging that one specific site..but I believe if you have to *pay* for something it has more of a meaning..than say the freebee sites.
Both my sons-in-laws are wonderful, the girls found what they were looking for, so makes me feel good.
-Di
Harley says
Thought I’d chime in. I’m a mid 40s male. Seperated from a 12 year relationship. Never had problems meeting people but moved to a small town years ago and own a business in that town and personally decided I didn’t want to date anyone from the town. So I turned to online dating. I subscribed for 1 month. First week was slow, I sent tons if messages and no replies. I changed my main profile pic and also changed my first message tactic. Suddenly I was getting 8, 10 messages a day. I dated women anywhere from 32 to 51 years old. Never had a bad date. And before the month ended, I actually met someone and we connected very good and we both deleted our profiles and are happy together. So for me, I gusss it’s a rare occasion that everything went suoer smooth. I never lied on my profile and tried different approach. 90% of women kept saying they wanted to see a pic of a guy without sunglasses and without a hat. At first my pic was just my face, clean shave no hat no sunglasses. Tben I switched my pic to me sitting in my car, hat on, plain t-shirt and my fully tattooed arm showing. My second was similar but with sunglasses. The responses were 10x better. It also unfortunately attracted women I had no interest in like way young or the tough biker chick ones and that’s normal considering my looks. But like I said, I then found the one I’m with today and some say that it’s true, opposite attracts. So again, for me it worked great.
dennis 9R4bS1 says
I certainly think it’s weird that so many online dating profiles from women sound like they’re looking for a daddy for their kids..and what’s with this “if you’re not serious don’t bother” or “only those serious about marriage need apply”,as though if a guy goes out with her he’d better be of the mind set that he’s going to marry her…really? so if the guy is just wanting to date and have fun,he’s not acceptable? any time i read a profile that reads like a contract that i must have marriage in mind,you can bet i’ll not get involved..that’s more than just rushing things.Also,many profiles don’t even mention the woman’s race..I’m certainly not the only person that dates within his own race,so i know it can’t be offensive to do so.Also,i agree witha person above about age ..i have always appeared to be 15 years younger than my real age and have always dated and am only interested in younger women.if i list my age on a site that ‘matches people in that fashion i have no luck..and even those sites that don’t match that way have search features that people use and they all(except maybe 1%) are matching themselves with others their age or younger.In the real world ,people often meet and talk first and age isn’t relatively important enough to inquire about right off the bat.S it’s easier in some cases ,for that very reason,to use real world one on one meetings instead of dating sites.When meeting people in public,if they ask my age i ask them how old i look.whatever they’re reply is i say “sounds good to me..i don’t tell them my age and i have found it easier to find matches that way because they don’t care about age after that first initial half hour or so of talking ..later when i tell my age,their surprised but not taken back enough to be discouraged by it..this won’t happen on a dating site.
Rachel says
Online dating is like going for a job interview. Been on a number of dates where guys have asked about my job aspirations. Where I see my career going. Meet one guy on 45k who said he partly dated online because he was looking for someone to help pay of the mortgage but would be willing to support someone if she was at least 5 years younger than him (I was so he’d have been willing to support me).
Also feel like it’s a elimination process men try to weed you out rather than get to know you. You’re better off, off line.
Online 4 Love says
hi thanks for the information and awesome posts